Vengeance - THE WORST PVP EVER

Thumbless_Bot

amiiegee wrote: »

PLAYSTATION HERE, so its the first time Vengeance.

First of all the positive : The Sky looks pretty. Ah yes and another good thing about it; it will end in a few days. Thought i wont play the game at all in these days.


Well now to the rest. I have played this now for almost 1 hour and its the worst pvp experience i had in ages.
It literally was better, when we still had the old servers and the game was a slide show & skills worked like in round based games.

You have NO own sets, no skill morphes, I have leveled Subclassing in the past days FOR NOTHING, because i cant use it now. The scribing skills i farmed together in the past, i cant use.
Youre slow, you have no ressources at most of the time, it feels like youre not doing anything most of the time.

Its a pure numbers game, the bigger zergs wins.
Not the better player, not the better strategy.

Every pvp battle has the same scheme wich i take time to describe now;



Zerg X with 50 people pushes to Keep 1 fighting Zerg Y with 40 people. Zerg Y gets pushed back , till they are close to the Keep 1 where they are able to respawn, then Zerg Y is Pushing back Zerg X to their own Keep 2.
Till it switches arround again and the scheme repeats.

THIS IS IT. Everyone fighting each other with solo target skills but just in big zerges.

This campaign is OP if youre just the type of pvp player who likes to beam people at full health, while they are getting zerged.

On the PS server im playing on EVERYONE in the chat is complaining.
In the psn party im in, EVERYONE is complaining.

I think its even worse.

I dont know if PC players are suffering sooo much off ball groups and proc sets, they rather prefere this Nonsense ( thats the tenor i read a lot in this forum, when vengeance happened first on PC).
But this is horrible, i wont support playing this test further & as a pure pvp player, if this ever becomes a permanent thing, this was the nail in the coffin for me.

To my fellow pvpers, just keep in mind YOU are paying, PAYING real money to zos to beta test their for profit software. Your money, that you work for, so you can make them more money.

TaCoSlurpY

Absolutely garbage. Straight dumbs down PvP.

PvPers hate it!

PvEers love it…

EVERYTIME I come back to this game I typically unsubscribe and delete for another year or two.

Stamicka

Vengeance is the only reason I log in. Once it goes away, I will too. I’m having a great time and much prefer Vengeance over the current state of Cyrodiil.

I think a lot of ESO’s playerbase likes to outbuild others and have an advantage over them. I always hated that though, so this is perfect for me. I’m not surprised that it’s so polarizing though.

There’s still some class balance issues and there’s a bit too much healing atm, but time to kill is still manageable. Even still though, the healing in Vengeance isn’t as extreme as what subclassing caused. It feels more like old Cyrodiil again.

katanagirl1

I was going to start a thread about my PS Vengeance experience, but I guess it would just get closed down due to there already one here.

I was pleased to see all the skills I needed for my sorc were there, I thought there was supposed to be a tutorial about this new campaign but couldn’t find it. Literally every player was asking in zone chat what to do. Most players had no idea what was going on. Many were mad and just left.

The good news, gameplay felt pretty much the same except I hit like a wet noodle without CP. Skills seemed to have a shorter timer, had to get used to that.

The bad news, this was not less laggy than normal. Granted, I usually have good performance on PS5 anyway, this might be actually be worse. Also, when I use Siege Shield or Negate the bubble disappears immediately. It’s not very effective to keep looking at your skill bar to see if they are still up. Also, no one else on my team sees my negate and takes advantage of it.

It was nice to not have to buy siege, but the lack of meatbags made combat difficult. Ballistae are only good for doors and trebuchets have too low a fire rate to be effective in open field combat or for defending keeps. Also only one of each was a limiting factor for good defense, as I usually use 2-3 oils or ballistae at a time.

I think there was only one bar DC and two bars EP and AD when I left. I was on DC and we did well for a couple of hours but when I got back we were being gated while everyone on my faction was defending Ales. I hope this isn’t a total steamroll for the whole campaign, that won’t be fun.

lpoki

They merge multiple servers together and claim that testing shows it optimizes gaming performance！

lpoki

sarahthes wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

It’s a test again…to get raw data they could never get on the PTS. I assume they want data off console too now, hence it being on there now too. It’s not the end-all-be-all new way of PVP. It’s for a week. I think everyone will survive.

What data they wanna get? The data how dead this server is?

People will get their pursuit and leave this & not play pvp till this is over.

Given that during the last round PC apparently had the most ever people to be in cyrodiil at once and the campaign was constantly pop locked outside the middle of the night, it might just be that casuals on console don't enjoy PvP? I know on PC we had just about everyone dip into vengeance for a bit.

Because it gives players who get crushed in PvP scenarios a glimmer of hope to play PvP.

freespirit

I do PVP but I get heartily sick of ball groups on PC-EU.

I've just spent an enjoyable couple of hours, even at 2am UK time it was busy and fun!

If more people can play and their connection is more stable then I'm all for them trying these tests to get some data that might eventually help improve our standard campaigns!

lpoki

ForumBully wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

We already had this discussion before with the first Vengeance test, and most people were positive, because THEY HAD FUN! Massive amounts of people, no unkillable players, and no crutches, no ball groups..what's to complain about?? New players were ecstatic during the event, and they had so much fun. It is beginner-friendly, which is always a good thing. How is bringing in new players a bad thing?

Just to be clear: THIS IS A TEST!

Vengeance mode is no skill trash. There is nothing good about it at all. The people who love it now will quit playing within a week or two if vengeance mode becomes mandated.

You're wrong, it's the opposite. Even the most experienced ones had more fun during Vengeance mode. We had such huge fights at Ash that I thought the game was going to implode, but imagine my shock when I saw that the server handled it. If people had to choose between status quo where ball groups own the map, or PvP full of people, albeit with limited skills, I guarantee you that most people would pick the campaign where they haven't had as much fun in YEARS!

Also, give ZOS a little more credit here. They will keep running their tests. It won't end with this.

thats just wrong and the person who you was responding too, is right

Again - WRONG! What you fail to understand is that people were having FUN for the first time in ages! The huge numbers of players, along with restrictions in skills, made fights "equal", albeit numbers-based. ZOS just needs to tweak the skills allowed in order to make your own skilfulness matter. I believe that ZOS will figure this out.

Also, AGAIN, we've already had this discussion the previous time we had Vengeance mode active. Most people were in agreement in that they hadn't had that much fun in ages. It just needs skill tweaks, that's all. It's the amount of players that brought the fun because it felt like an ACTUAL WAR like it used to be at the start.

Youre entitled to have your opinion but dont try to sell them as facts 😂 A lot of people hating vengeance, i hope zos tracks the zone chat and realises lmao

No one ever wants to read zone chat...ever

They simply ignored all comments unfavorable to them.🤣

Getsugatenso

amiiegee wrote: »

Jaavaa wrote: »

Wait. This crap is on console now for a week?

Yes & its awful.

THIS MODE IS HORRIBLE

Joy_Division

CatoUnchained wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

We already had this discussion before with the first Vengeance test, and most people were positive, because THEY HAD FUN! Massive amounts of people, no unkillable players, and no crutches, no ball groups..what's to complain about?? New players were ecstatic during the event, and they had so much fun. It is beginner-friendly, which is always a good thing. How is bringing in new players a bad thing?

Just to be clear: THIS IS A TEST!

Vengeance mode is no skill trash. There is nothing good about it at all. The people who love it now will quit playing within a week or two if vengeance mode becomes mandated.

You're wrong, it's the opposite. Even the most experienced ones had more fun during Vengeance mode. We had such huge fights at Ash that I thought the game was going to implode, but imagine my shock when I saw that the server handled it. If people had to choose between status quo where ball groups own the map, or PvP full of people, albeit with limited skills, I guarantee you that most people would pick the campaign where they haven't had as much fun in YEARS!

Also, give ZOS a little more credit here. They will keep running their tests. It won't end with this.

thats just wrong and the person who you was responding too, is right

Again - WRONG! What you fail to understand is that people were having FUN for the first time in ages! The huge numbers of players, along with restrictions in skills, made fights "equal", albeit numbers-based. ZOS just needs to tweak the skills allowed in order to make your own skilfulness matter. I believe that ZOS will figure this out.

Also, AGAIN, we've already had this discussion the previous time we had Vengeance mode active. Most people were in agreement in that they hadn't had that much fun in ages. It just needs skill tweaks, that's all. It's the amount of players that brought the fun because it felt like an ACTUAL WAR like it used to be at the start.

Youre entitled to have your opinion but dont try to sell them as facts 😂 A lot of people hating vengeance, i hope zos tracks the zone chat and realises lmao

No one ever wants to read zone chat...ever

You do know Rich is DC right, Brian is EP right... they do read zone chat. I can promise you they have QA people in live veng right now too doing their own testing. You think they don't have logs of zone chat and run it through AI? Sentiment scanning of text files is one of the OG AI models that has been around for ages. This is stupid easy to implement with very little cost to overhead.

How do you know Rich is DC and Brian is EP? ...just curious. I sincerely don't believe anyone at ZOS PvP's since about 2018. For certain nobody with the official ZOS rep icon has been seen in Cyrodiil since then. So how do you know what you just claimed is factual?

Can confirm Rich is DC and Brian is EP (he even mentioned it on stream), at least their mains were. Just because people PvP, doesn't mean their ideas for game balance are good. In fact, I hear a lot of terrible ideas from professed PvP experts on these forums.

Feaky

At least you're playing. 188 in the queue. 2 hours waiting. We had a 10+ maintenance patch for this. Good lord. I'm so glad that I do not do organized events anymore. This is impossible.

Ceridith

Vengeance is the most fun I've had in Cyro PvP since, well, ever.

Just jump in, set your two attack bars with the vengeance abilities, and you're good to go. No metagaming nonsense, abusing proc sets, spamming consumables, subclassing, or whatever else. Everyone is on a relatively even playing field, which makes skill a much larger determining factor. No more smart target healing either, you actually have to put in some thought and effort into keeping allies healed rather than just charging around in a ball group spamming cross heals.

It's a refreshing change to the usual PvP nonsense. It's also been funny too watching more than a few of the 'good' PvPers floundering around trying to get kills in vengeance, only to fall on their faces when they don't have their usual nonsense builds to abuse.

Highwayman

I spent about 8 hours today playing on arcanist and nightblade.

I had one freeze of about 3 seconds and 1 disconnect and the rest was perfect.

I saw massive battles. Even though we had lower pop all day, our alliance had an absurd number of people at battles.

I saw a couple guys tower farming rather effectively.

I solo farmed a mile gate less effectively.

I ganked from stealth a couple times, but hey they were just standing there not healing.

I saw what must have been a coordinated 40 man team of some kind. Hate to say ball group from the results they got, but it was probably an attempt at it with the obvious strategy of numbers.

So many 1v1s and 1v2s, people weren't afraid to engage.

I got zerged down about 15 times. I got away a surprising number of times.

So much siege.... so many forward camps.

I finished the alliance skill lines on 2 pve chars I just haven't felt motivated to setup for pvp.

Some criticism?

Aoe ultimates should feel more impactful.

Spec bow should feel less impactful. Some things never change I guess.

Healing is a little overtuned, I'd say it was mostly vigor but I didn't try a resto staff.

I am still of the opinion it would do well for the game for this to replace the under 50 campaign.

SxFurey

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

I am glad you have fun - of the cost of everyone else:)

He's just stating his opinion based on his experience. You're putting words into his mouth. This is the difference.

SxFurey

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

You didn't got my point. Everyone had issues logging in and even queueing for stuff, and while that they increased the cap?

"Everyone". I'm pretty sure thats hyperbole. Present facts and figures to back your claim please.

Vulkunne

amiiegee wrote: »

PLAYSTATION HERE, so its the first time Vengeance.

First of all the positive : The Sky looks pretty. Ah yes and another good thing about it; it will end in a few days. Thought i wont play the game at all in these days.


Well now to the rest. I have played this now for almost 1 hour and its the worst pvp experience i had in ages.
It literally was better, when we still had the old servers and the game was a slide show & skills worked like in round based games.

You have NO own sets, no skill morphes, I have leveled Subclassing in the past days FOR NOTHING, because i cant use it now. The scribing skills i farmed together in the past, i cant use.
Youre slow, you have no ressources at most of the time, it feels like youre not doing anything most of the time.

Its a pure numbers game, the bigger zergs wins.
Not the better player, not the better strategy.

Every pvp battle has the same scheme wich i take time to describe now;



Zerg X with 50 people pushes to Keep 1 fighting Zerg Y with 40 people. Zerg Y gets pushed back , till they are close to the Keep 1 where they are able to respawn, then Zerg Y is Pushing back Zerg X to their own Keep 2.
Till it switches arround again and the scheme repeats.

THIS IS IT. Everyone fighting each other with solo target skills but just in big zerges.

This campaign is OP if youre just the type of pvp player who likes to beam people at full health, while they are getting zerged.

On the PS server im playing on EVERYONE in the chat is complaining.
In the psn party im in, EVERYONE is complaining.

I think its even worse.

I dont know if PC players are suffering sooo much off ball groups and proc sets, they rather prefere this Nonsense ( thats the tenor i read a lot in this forum, when vengeance happened first on PC).
But this is horrible, i wont support playing this test further & as a pure pvp player, if this ever becomes a permanent thing, this was the nail in the coffin for me.

Initially, I wasn't going to say anything. Kind of busy atm anyways so might not be able to do too much with this round of Vengeance.

I'd like to point out something here, but before I do it's easy to see what your opinion of Vengeance is and so keeping that in mind, this is not an attempt to speak for you or over how you feel ok? But I'd like to point something out.

You say, THIS IS IT. Everyone fighting each other with solo target skills but just in big zerges.

Ok now again, I read everything, but this called itself out to me. From my experience with regular PvP, its ball groups and bombers and as someone else recently posted talking about the 'grief stalkers' (at every siege) and so on, this is something many of us are quite frankly tired of dealing with ok. It's a reason why PvP in this game has been disrupted and is a reason why even I have retired from PvPing for a while, I am working on other things now and doing quite well with them.

But check this out, so, what's wrong with everyone fighting each other? What's wrong with solo target skills but zergs of players duking it out? There's nothing wrong with that. That's PvP. Yes that is PvP. We're PvPing and there is no longer this business of 10 players using exploits to try and login and act like they're better than everyone else who does not have access to that gear. I have access to it yeah but never use it and I never group. I'm just saying, there's another layer here that it's like you're trying to say its cancerous but no that's healthy tissue.

That's how PvP should be. Everyone fighting together but not fighting above one another. Everyone fighting with no guarantees or absolute success like some of these ball groups have.

I understand if you still don't agree with this view but understand, we have a situation in this game, where there are so many more people who just want to play the game without having to stop and getting killed for hours by one ball group. So would you rather have a couple zergs of players 'fighting each other' or one ball group of like 5 to 15 people killing two factions in tandem on the server for hours, while abusing a scroll as well.

Something has to give and holding people back by putting people in brackers, like was common on Blackreach with the yellow faction, is fine for your guild but it's not inclusive and the lack of opportunity for a fairer fight is hemorraging folks from PvP in droves. Including me. I don't need their approval, and I don't need a computer and uh 12 to 15 people spamming me with heals and buffs to facilitate my own ego.

It all needs to stop. Let everyone fight it out and let us PvP for once. Give other people a chance to shine, otherwise why ask them to login at all.

amiiegee

CatoUnchained wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

Lol all this same rethoric game out at the start of the last vengence campaign on PC, yet at the end of the campaign the responce was overwhelmingly positive.

Vengeance is not at all popular with the vast majority of PvP mains. It's just not. It's popular with PvE mains and ZOS.

licenturion wrote: »

I hate PvP normally but wanted to try it and I must say I loved it now that they levelled the playing field

I had some great 1vs1 and me vs 2 fights and I either got away alive or killed them with good positioning and timing of my skills. Fights feel a lot more fair and readable like this now that stuff is actually balanced. Even cheap ganking tricks can be countered now.

I even played with a large group for 2 hours and had loads of fun. If this becomes an extra mode in the future, I will probably play some PvP as well. Time will tell.

There were some moments of lag during big fights.

point proven lol

Islyn

I am newly returned.

What is the point of this vengeance thing?

Why is every normal campaign closed- just to force ppl to do this?

OutLaw_Nynx

I’m having fun with this so far

Malyore

I am trying vengeance out and yeah it's pretty dull. I do actually like how some of the abilities perform now. They're simpler and I can appreciate that, along with some other changes.
However the power scaling is severely dull. It really does seem to just be "win by having the most players" as I have seen several small fights where simply nothing worthwhile is happening. Take a little damage, heal back to full, repeat. I, and others, have had to break away from fights because they're just so dull and no victory or loss was achievable after a few minutes of playing tag.

I do think this test is a look into the right direction, but if elements of it are gonna be carried over into the full game then it'll need some additional spice for sure.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

PCNA
I will admit, the last Vengeance test was the most fun I have had in PvP in 6+ years.
I played it today for hours. SO many people! It was fun and a bit of Deja Vu. I doubt that anyone but a few will remember the GIANT battle at Chalman during beta. It was epic! There is a book in the back of Chalman keep that is about that battle.
Hundreds of people and all 3 alliances battled for hours. That was what PVP was like then. Yes, it had it's problems, but the whole game did when it was new. But as time went on, PVP got worse and worse. People have been yelling to fix it constantly.

ZoS has had other "stress tests" and data gathering events before this, but didn't give the info they needed. For those who hate it, well mention it on the survey they will send out when it's over. For those wanting answers to what and why, here is the Twitch stream that Brian Wheeler did recently. Hope it will answer a few of your questions. For me, I'm having fun with it. Even with limited skills and such. To each his own I guess.
Edit: Because of Vengeance properties, you can't find the book I mentioned at Chalman, so here is a link to it if any is interested.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/those-who-stood-chalman-keep
Starts at approx 5:30

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

YandereGirlfriend

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

Most of the respondents, though, were mainly PvE tourists checking it out. Nothing inherently wrong with that but there is a big divide between the PvP main players and those who were just stopping by. I would say that PvE main player votes are meaningful only if they actually intend to stick around if they get a Vengeance-style campaign option. But if they are going to vote and then disappear back to PvE then there is an inherent problem with the numbers.

thedude33

licenturion wrote: »

I see a future where they have both modes

- Curated vengeance mode that is seasonal where they add and remove stuff and where they balance for
- Wild mode just like standard PvP is today without focus for balance

I wouldn't mind those 2 modes then people can choose what they prefer.

Exactly. I had a blast tonight. If given a choice, I would say bye bye to old Cyrodil

thedude33

Stamicka wrote: »

Vengeance is the only reason I log in. Once it goes away, I will too. I’m having a great time and much prefer Vengeance over the current state of Cyrodiil.

I think a lot of ESO’s playerbase likes to outbuild others and have an advantage over them. I always hated that though, so this is perfect for me. I’m not surprised that it’s so polarizing though.

There’s still some class balance issues and there’s a bit too much healing atm, but time to kill is still manageable. Even still though, the healing in Vengeance isn’t as extreme as what subclassing caused. It feels more like old Cyrodiil again.

It does feel like old Cyrodil.

lpoki

I only saw countless pvdoor🥱

wolfie1.0.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

Most of the respondents, though, were mainly PvE tourists checking it out. Nothing inherently wrong with that but there is a big divide between the PvP main players and those who were just stopping by. I would say that PvE main player votes are meaningful only if they actually intend to stick around if they get a Vengeance-style campaign option. But if they are going to vote and then disappear back to PvE then there is an inherent problem with the numbers.

Age old dilemma, how do you cater to the current player base while also balancing what will attract new players in?

Gadamlub14_ESO

the stunlock instagib meta of normal pvp isnt fun for anyone on the receiving end. I like this better.

marius_buys

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

Most of the respondents, though, were mainly PvE tourists checking it out. Nothing inherently wrong with that but there is a big divide between the PvP main players and those who were just stopping by. I would say that PvE main player votes are meaningful only if they actually intend to stick around if they get a Vengeance-style campaign option. But if they are going to vote and then disappear back to PvE then there is an inherent problem with the numbers.

Cant agree more, asking PvE players if they enjoyed it doesnt count

MISTFORMBZZZ

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

Where was this asked ? To get to these results? Who was the audience ?

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

Most of the respondents, though, were mainly PvE tourists checking it out. Nothing inherently wrong with that but there is a big divide between the PvP main players and those who were just stopping by. I would say that PvE main player votes are meaningful only if they actually intend to stick around if they get a Vengeance-style campaign option. But if they are going to vote and then disappear back to PvE then there is an inherent problem with the numbers.

Exactly this. The people who are not even playing pvp regulary are forming the future direction, while it feels like regular pvp´ers are not even asked.

Do a poll on the start feed of everyone logging in, this is the only way to get a relyable fair poll.

Not if you ask in some niche in a forum wich probably only 1% of the playerbase is using. In my 35 man guild im literally the only one in forum.