PTS Update 46 - Feedback Thread for Subclassing

gc0018 · May 16

Rungar wrote: »

zos is #14 in sales on the steam charts and the games not on sale. Perhaps its some Oblivion remastered hype but i also think it could be subclassing hype. Content pass is #575. Despite all the doom and gloom i think most players will love subclassing, if they last long enough in-game to get to it. Zos should make it available from day 1.

There are some guys like me, every year, I bought the next DLC and 1-year subscription as habit without looking at what is actually inside.

Now, I became the joke.

I try to contact steam for refund and failed.

HumbleThaumaturge · May 18

Played with Subclassing on PTS with my EU characters.
-- Process was easy to learn.
-- Applied 1 skill tree from Sorc and 1 skill tree from Nightblade to one of my Templars just to ensure process works. Leveled up those skill trees a bit, then logged to other characters to verify that the subclassed skill lines (tree rank and abilities) were leveling up.
-- Could not apply subclasses with Add-ons active. Had to disable all Add-ons to make it work. Got "UI Error D9823EE6." Didn't take the time to troubleshoot. After disabling all Add-ons, Subclassing process worked fine.
-- I thought I heard that Subclassing would not be allowed for characters under level 50. However, a new level 4 character was able to use Subclassing, so I guess what I heard was not true? Personally, I think Subclassing should not be allowed under level 50, because it will make the under-level-50 PvP campaigns even worse, as the highly experienced professional players make even more god-like builds.

On one level, I hate the idea of Subclassing. It ruins the whole Elder Scrolls "lore" for me. (But then, I also hated the end of the original leveling system with "One Tamriel.") However, overland PvE content (except world bosses) is now so easy (the "difficulty" has been lowered so much) that one can run all the zones with just Templar "jabs." On the test server (PTS), I've run a new character from creation to level 50 with no armor, no weapons, and only Templar "jabs" slotted. That character could do all zone quests, plus dolmen, delves, and public dungeons. Therefore, I can see myself using Subclassing to give "jabs" to various characters of other classes. Also, I could see myself giving a character the nightblade cloaking skills if I were to complete Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood quests. So yeah, I'm a hypocrite: I think Subclassing is wrong . . . but I'll probably exploit it anyway.

Rungar · May 18

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

Played with Subclassing on PTS with my EU characters.
-- Process was easy to learn.
-- Applied 1 skill tree from Sorc and 1 skill tree from Nightblade to one of my Templars just to ensure process works. Leveled up those skill trees a bit, then logged to other characters to verify that the subclassed skill lines (tree rank and abilities) were leveling up.
-- Could not apply subclasses with Add-ons active. Had to disable all Add-ons to make it work. Got "UI Error D9823EE6." Didn't take the time to troubleshoot. After disabling all Add-ons, Subclassing process worked fine.
-- I thought I heard that Subclassing would not be allowed for characters under level 50. However, a new level 4 character was able to use Subclassing, so I guess what I heard was not true? Personally, I think Subclassing should not be allowed under level 50, because it will make the under-level-50 PvP campaigns even worse, as the highly experienced professional players make even more god-like builds.

On one level, I hate the idea of Subclassing. It ruins the whole Elder Scrolls "lore" for me. (But then, I also hated the end of the original leveling system with "One Tamriel.") However, overland PvE content (except world bosses) is now so easy (the "difficulty" has been lowered so much) that one can run all the zones with just Templar "jabs." On the test server (PTS), I've run a new character from creation to level 50 with no armor, no weapons, and only Templar "jabs" slotted. That character could do all zone quests, plus dolmen, delves, and public dungeons. Therefore, I can see myself using Subclassing to give "jabs" to various characters of other classes. Also, I could see myself giving a character the nightblade cloaking skills if I were to complete Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood quests. So yeah, I'm a hypocrite: I think Subclassing is wrong . . . but I'll probably exploit it anyway.

they should allow it from level 1 imo. Hopefully it isnt a bug. A couple minor changes from there and you can choose your own class when you start the game, they way it was always supposed to be. Id like to see an affinity system though to make it more interesting.

necro sorcerer and nightblade on the dark side and templar warden and dragonknight on the light side and the arcanist neutral. What level of passives you can unlock depending on your base class/line and affinity.

mrreow · May 18

Rungar wrote: »

’I want affinity system’..

I disagree. This isn’t black and white Star Wars to have good side and evil side. Elder scrolls was always about grey morality and no class should be considered light or dark.

Only the contemporary laws of the land dictate elder scrolls morality. Empire didn’t mind necromancers and even provided corpses of prisoners for a fee, Dunmer hate them even though they use some form of necromancy in ancestor worship, wood elves cannibals etc.

Rungar · May 18

mrreow wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

’I want affinity system’..

I disagree. This isn’t black and white Star Wars to have good side and evil side. Elder scrolls was always about grey morality and no class should be considered light or dark.

Only the contemporary laws of the land dictate elder scrolls morality. Empire didn’t mind necromancers and even provided corpses of prisoners for a fee, Dunmer hate them, wood elves cannibals etc.

i didnt make the classes or their themes.. that's just how they appear to line up. Even in the game abnur tharn the sorcerer was a questionable good guy but his magic was dark for sure. Necromancers and nightblades are pretty obvious.

same for the aedric templar, chosen dragonknight and the nature loving warden. Even the arcanist, or knowledge seeker has their own side.. the side of knowledge.

just call light=order
and dark=chaos
and arcanist = knowledge

mrreow · May 18

Rungar wrote: »

light order dark chaos

As I said it doesn’t make sense in elder scrolls universe

Everyone in this world wants to survive and earn coin. It’s pretty mundane at the core. Mages do so by selling their services and feed their families this way, necromancers are half bad folks and half normal folks with just academic interest.

If someone is evil then it should be arcanist because herma mora is usually in opposition to most tamrielic cultures morality. However from the cosmic view point of things daedra aren’t necessarily evil. They are just different beings from mortals completely divorced at very early point in the creation myth. One could take their default ambivalence to mortal affairs as evil but it is simply consequence of different way of perceiving and existing altogether.

Maggusemm · May 18

my feedback is that Sorcerer, Warden, DK need to get massively buffed in their passives for PVE damage dealers in order to meet templar, nightblade, necromancer and arcanist subclassing skills

PrinceShroob · May 18

The problem with allowing subclassing at level 1 is that the subclass versions of skill lines are account-wide, which means their rank and rank progress for skills and morphs is shared across all characters on your account.

That's a problem for under 50 PvP--normally, what skills and builds you'll have to contend with is bounded by the fact that you receive less experience when you're under level 50, but skills and skill lines require the same amount of experience to rank up. If the goal is to stay in the under 50 campaign, your abilities and passives are limited by the fact that you need to gain experience to rank up your skill lines to access certain skills and passives, which pushes you closer to level 50. For example, it's very difficult to reach rank 10 in Fighters Guild to access Dawnbreaker because leveling the skill line (generally) requires killing undead and Daedra, which will give you experience.

Since you can get skill points from overland skyshards with minimal experience gained--or even with no experience gained thanks to Alliance Point rewards from the daily login calendar--this potentially allows a level 10 character who is freshly allowed into Cyrodiil to be rocking Legendary-quality endgame items sets (thanks to no level restrictions on reconstructing most items) and endgame skills like Grim Focus and Streak.

That's not only not very fun for actual inexperienced new PvPers, who are basically being attacked by an optimized endgame build before they've even got their bearings, but it creates a massive information disparity.

Before subclassing, each enemy player can only be one class. Once they use a class skill, you can tell what class they are, and then you can quickly try to extrapolate their build from various popular builds for that class. For example, if I fight a Sorcerer, I can prepare myself to deal with Streak, Hardened Ward, and Mages' Wrath. But now, not only can I not know what class an opponent is, I also can't trust that an opponent who shows up as being under level 50 isn't secretly rocking passives meant for fully-leveled characters.

That information disparity is a key part of any competitive game, though I don't generally see it talked about with regards to this game's PvP much. For example, before Legends shut down, Guildsworn colors were often expected to be Invade; when I played midrange Guildsworn, I would deliberately try to trick my opponent into thinking that I was also playing Invade so that they'd misplay their cards into the shadow lane to prepare for an Oblivion Gate, before I'd comfortably take the field lane.

tomofhyrule · May 18

Here's another minor issue that Subclassing presents: the Bounty quests in Cyrodiil and the Grand [Class] Slayer achievements.

In either case, it's killing a bunch of characters of a given Class. Granted, some were never easy before (I'm looking at you right now Necros, considering that's a really unpopular class in PvP for obvious reasons), but you could normally try to target specific players when you had it active. "Oh look, that dude has a netch flying after him!" "Oh look, she keeps stealthing!" and the like.

Now, those will be a lot harder to do. It seems reasonable that those still target players based on the parent class, but now who knows if the dude throwing out Polar Wind while cloaking is a NB or Warden, or even something else entirely.

Sordidfairytale · May 19

DC and EP starting points for the subclassing quest have the quest giver at a "Free" zone wayshrine. The quest giver for AD is in Dune, the nearest "Free" wayshrine is in Rawl'kah. Consider moving the quest giver to this "Free" wayshrine in Reapers March for AD characters.

Erickson9610 · May 19

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Here's another minor issue that Subclassing presents: the Bounty quests in Cyrodiil and the Grand [Class] Slayer achievements.

In either case, it's killing a bunch of characters of a given Class. Granted, some were never easy before (I'm looking at you right now Necros, considering that's a really unpopular class in PvP for obvious reasons), but you could normally try to target specific players when you had it active. "Oh look, that dude has a netch flying after him!" "Oh look, she keeps stealthing!" and the like.

Now, those will be a lot harder to do. It seems reasonable that those still target players based on the parent class, but now who knows if the dude throwing out Polar Wind while cloaking is a NB or Warden, or even something else entirely.

Those quests should be done away with. The same goes for the Class-based leaderboards in the Infinite Archive.

HumbleThaumaturge · May 19

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

-- I thought I heard that Subclassing would not be allowed for characters under level 50. However, a new level 4 character was able to use Subclassing, so I guess what I heard was not true? Personally, I think Subclassing should not be allowed under level 50, because it will make the under-level-50 PvP campaigns even worse, as the highly experienced professional players make even more god-like builds.

Since making my original post, I have learned how the under-level-50 restriction works for subclassing. If your entire account has no character over level 50, then you can NOT use subclassing. If you don't have at least one level 50 character on your account, you will get the message: "You must have the Level 50 Hero Achievement to start this Quest." If you have even one level 50 character, then you can use subclassing on all of your characters, regardless of level. If you have at least one level 50 character, even a level 3 character immediately out of the tutorial can use subclassing.

For the sake of under-level-50 PvP, please restrict subclassing to over level 50 characters! Since subclassing skill trees (ranks and abilities levels) are account wide, that means a new character can now use subclassing to acquire two FULLY DEVELOPED SKILL TREES! The subclass Abilities will not unlock until certain character levels are reached, but when an Ability unlocks, it is at the account-wide level (i.e., most likely max'd out).

HumbleThaumaturge · May 19

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

-- I thought I heard that Subclassing would not be allowed for characters under level 50.

After some more experimentation on the test server (PTS), I discovered that I jumped to incorrect conclusions about under-level-50 characters using subclassing.

I have been testing subclassing using my existing EU characters. As stated in an earlier post, I completed the subclassing quest with one of my Templars and obtained one Sorc skill tree and one Nightblade skill tree while keeping the "Aedric Spear" Templar skill tree.

As mentioned previously, I was unable to subclass until I deactivated all Add-ons. That is, with any Add-on activated, the subclassing options was not available from the NPC. When all Add-ons were deactivated, was able to use subclassing.

Subclassed skill tree leveling is very fast. I leveled-up the Sorc skill tree to level 50 while also leveling Abilities on that tree. The PTS patch notes state that "Abilities/skill lines are leveled slower." I was quite surprised how little time it took to get the skill tree to level 50. R I didn't even put much effort into leveling the skill tree, and still did it very quickly. I imagine the professional XP grinders could do it in 13 seconds. (Exaggerating a little.)

After my main Templar leveled the Sorc skill tree to level 50, I created a new character and skipped the tutorial. The new (level 3) character then completed the subclassing intro quest and obtained the Sorc skill tree that was previously leveled. Since subclass tree leveling is Account Wide, the Sorc skill tree was at level 50 and the Abilities were leveled. HOWEVER, the Abilities were not unlocked. The PTS patch notes state: "Abilities are now locked on character level and skill line rank." Therefore, it seems that character level must reach certain points before the Abilities unlock. Therefore, a level 3 character WILL NOT have a fully-developed skill tree (as I incorrectely concluded in an earlier post). However, it appears that once the Ability is unlocked, then it will be at the account-wide level.

Subclass skill tree Abilities unlock at certain character levels. For the Sorc skill tree I used, the unlocks are as follows:
-- 1st Ability: Immediately
-- 2nd Ability: Character level 4
-- 3rd Ability: Character level 20
-- 4th Ability: Character level 30
-- 5th Ability: Character level 42
-- Ultimate: Character level 12
Once an Ability or Ultimate unlocks, it is at the account-wide level (i.e., max'd out).

I can see it now: 20 dozen groups running Alik'r Desert dolmens to level-up subclass skill trees! And those professional XP grind-leaders are gonna make a fortune. But seriously, from my experiments, there's no need to rush leveling subclass skill trees. You can probably level a tree to level 50 in 30 to 60 minutes without extraordinary effort. Just pack a full set of "Training" gear and some 150% XP scrolls. And maybe take some skill respec scrolls, so you can switch morphs after they max-out during skill tree leveling. And don't forget some Repair Kits to repair your armor.

Yudo · May 19

We are steering away from pet/no pet version of skills because of performance they mentioned but at this point maybe it is better to bring back duality because after all, Sorc can be no-pet or with pet with provided skills in the skill line. There is no simple way to push out no-pet sorcs without a proper design, so this is really not great.

Suggest you do not give us discriminating effects like "works only when you have a permanent pet". Instead give us another effect for no-Pet. Just like how Curse has been used. What is the point of Haunting Curse VS Pray when the idea is that we should only use the line for pets? It does not add up. Provide options for no-pet. Rename the skill line so lore ppl are happy too if you must.

Or make one of the morphs actually be a pet summon, and the other a deadric spell buff/debuff/curse/whatever instead, and make it costing either magicka/stamina, which ever highest.

Or give non-pet sorcs a persistent passives instead. Find a way that is not as taxing for the servers. If skill effects are too hard what about passives, or other sticky effects? This can be applied to pure classes also as a "specialisation" buff for those who choose to go with 3 main class lines.

If the double bar slot of pets is is to hard to solve, implement an active bar effect, and a reduced back bar effect without the requirement to have it active on both bars. That way you must be on the active bar to benefit from the effects in full.

You can consider swapping sorc skills between lines as some have suggested to reduce heavy dependency on all skill lines. Maybe more will consider subclassing. Everything is looking green. I am no longer a sorcerer if my bar has non or one skill on the bar, slaved for the passives alone and taken over by NB/Arc skills.

Please address pure class concerns and identity!

Thanks.

Elvenheart · May 19

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

DC and EP starting points for the subclassing quest have the quest giver at a "Free" zone wayshrine. The quest giver for AD is in Dune, the nearest "Free" wayshrine is in Rawl'kah. Consider moving the quest giver to this "Free" wayshrine in Reapers March for AD characters.

Oh, this is a very good point, especially for newer characters. I hope they can do this in time.

HumbleThaumaturge · May 19

Elvenheart wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

DC and EP starting points for the subclassing quest have the quest giver at a "Free" zone wayshrine. The quest giver for AD is in Dune, the nearest "Free" wayshrine is in Rawl'kah. Consider moving the quest giver to this "Free" wayshrine in Reapers March for AD characters.

Oh, this is a very good point, especially for newer characters. I hope they can do this in time.

When I was experimenting on the test server with a new character (no wayshrines mapped), it only took about 3 minutes to ride from Rawl'kah to the subclassing quest-giver in Dune (without major gallop and going the "back way" down around the Sleek Creek House and taking the path over the ridge just shy of the Reaper's Henge world boss). Yeah, yeah, I know: players don't wanna ride for 3 minutes.

Maggusemm · May 20

Some players have the issue that the would like to continue pure classes but feel a disadvantage compared to subclassed builds.

There could be a lore friendly idea to improve the power of pure builds with an additional passive

6% bonus on damage and 6% sustain for pure builds
3% bonus on damage and 3% sustain for builds with 1 subclassed linen
no bonus for builds with 2 subclassed lines

Sordidfairytale · May 21

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

DC and EP starting points for the subclassing quest have the quest giver at a "Free" zone wayshrine. The quest giver for AD is in Dune, the nearest "Free" wayshrine is in Rawl'kah. Consider moving the quest giver to this "Free" wayshrine in Reapers March for AD characters.

Oh, this is a very good point, especially for newer characters. I hope they can do this in time.

When I was experimenting on the test server with a new character (no wayshrines mapped), it only took about 3 minutes to ride from Rawl'kah to the subclassing quest-giver in Dune (without major gallop and going the "back way" down around the Sleek Creek House and taking the path over the ridge just shy of the Reaper's Henge world boss). Yeah, yeah, I know: players don't wanna ride for 3 minutes.

Make the other two alliance locations for the quest NPC a three minute stroll then.

Erickson9610 · May 21

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

DC and EP starting points for the subclassing quest have the quest giver at a "Free" zone wayshrine. The quest giver for AD is in Dune, the nearest "Free" wayshrine is in Rawl'kah. Consider moving the quest giver to this "Free" wayshrine in Reapers March for AD characters.

Oh, this is a very good point, especially for newer characters. I hope they can do this in time.

When I was experimenting on the test server with a new character (no wayshrines mapped), it only took about 3 minutes to ride from Rawl'kah to the subclassing quest-giver in Dune (without major gallop and going the "back way" down around the Sleek Creek House and taking the path over the ridge just shy of the Reaper's Henge world boss). Yeah, yeah, I know: players don't wanna ride for 3 minutes.

Make the other two alliance locations for the quest NPC a three minute stroll then.

I'd rather keep the convenience. The AD location is the outlier — it should be brought in line with the other two, being relocated to the zone's main city.

Sordidfairytale · May 21

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

DC and EP starting points for the subclassing quest have the quest giver at a "Free" zone wayshrine. The quest giver for AD is in Dune, the nearest "Free" wayshrine is in Rawl'kah. Consider moving the quest giver to this "Free" wayshrine in Reapers March for AD characters.

Oh, this is a very good point, especially for newer characters. I hope they can do this in time.

When I was experimenting on the test server with a new character (no wayshrines mapped), it only took about 3 minutes to ride from Rawl'kah to the subclassing quest-giver in Dune (without major gallop and going the "back way" down around the Sleek Creek House and taking the path over the ridge just shy of the Reaper's Henge world boss). Yeah, yeah, I know: players don't wanna ride for 3 minutes.

Make the other two alliance locations for the quest NPC a three minute stroll then.

I'd rather keep the convenience. The AD location is the outlier — it should be brought in line with the other two, being relocated to the zone's main city.

Agreed.

HumbleThaumaturge · May 23

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

DC and EP starting points for the subclassing quest have the quest giver at a "Free" zone wayshrine. The quest giver for AD is in Dune, the nearest "Free" wayshrine is in Rawl'kah. Consider moving the quest giver to this "Free" wayshrine in Reapers March for AD characters.

Oh, this is a very good point, especially for newer characters. I hope they can do this in time.

When I was experimenting on the test server with a new character (no wayshrines mapped), it only took about 3 minutes to ride from Rawl'kah to the subclassing quest-giver in Dune (without major gallop and going the "back way" down around the Sleek Creek House and taking the path over the ridge just shy of the Reaper's Henge world boss). Yeah, yeah, I know: players don't wanna ride for 3 minutes.

Make the other two alliance locations for the quest NPC a three minute stroll then.

Today on the PC PTS with my EU characters, I verified that any character can go to any of the three NPC quest-givers for the "A Study in Discipline" quest. For example, my AD Sorc did the quest (and got subclasses) by going to the NPC in Evermore, Bangkorai, instead of using the NPC in Dune, Reaper's March (the AD territory). As with all other experiments with subclassing, the quest would not complete until I disabled all Addons. That is, at the quest-step to "Equip a New Skill Line/Subclass a New Skill Line," the "Subclassing" option would not display until I disabled all Addons.

Sordidfairytale · May 23

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

DC and EP starting points for the subclassing quest have the quest giver at a "Free" zone wayshrine. The quest giver for AD is in Dune, the nearest "Free" wayshrine is in Rawl'kah. Consider moving the quest giver to this "Free" wayshrine in Reapers March for AD characters.

Oh, this is a very good point, especially for newer characters. I hope they can do this in time.

When I was experimenting on the test server with a new character (no wayshrines mapped), it only took about 3 minutes to ride from Rawl'kah to the subclassing quest-giver in Dune (without major gallop and going the "back way" down around the Sleek Creek House and taking the path over the ridge just shy of the Reaper's Henge world boss). Yeah, yeah, I know: players don't wanna ride for 3 minutes.

Make the other two alliance locations for the quest NPC a three minute stroll then.

Today on the PC PTS with my EU characters, I verified that any character can go to any of the three NPC quest-givers for the "A Study in Discipline" quest. For example, my AD Sorc did the quest (and got subclasses) by going to the NPC in Evermore, Bangkorai, instead of using the NPC in Dune, Reaper's March (the AD territory). As with all other experiments with subclassing, the quest would not complete until I disabled all Addons. That is, at the quest-step to "Equip a New Skill Line/Subclass a New Skill Line," the "Subclassing" option would not display until I disabled all Addons.

Yes, you can go to any of the other alliances for the quest. That isn't the point though, the point is that it's inconsistent with the other alliances. Because unless you've done the quest on another character in another alliance you wouldn't know immediately to go to those other locations in the first place. The quest interaction doesn't say go to one of these locations based on your alliance, it simply says go to X location, where X is specific to your alliance.

It would be nice if the experience were similar, regardless of which alliance you are a part of.

MehrunesRazor · May 25

k so i stopped by a while ago, i dont remember how long ago, but i stopped by to congratulate zos for introducing some brand new and objectively spicy changes to the game after 10 years of enjoying this awesome game. I guess the reason i did wait till the pts cycle was over to see what would actually make it through to the live game was a result of, again, playing the game for so long lol.

well you guys did your best but i gotta be honest about the fact that you let the nerfmongers rain all over the parade with their utterly weird obsession with less dps being absolutely necessary, and less healer stuff too iirc, i even heard arrow-to-the-knee games or whatever they name is crying strictly gratuitous tears about the heal nerfs after rejoicing over the damage nerfs they cried about nonstop from day one till you, of course, gave them and all 5 of their stream watchers (no exaggeration, its what makes it actually funny 5 stream watchers like every friday night u cant make this sh up) the nerfs they want so they can continue to dictate what everybody else "can bring" to their raid i would never knowingly join.

meh. no biggie, i honestly do still have more pressing issues irl to actually take real issue with you guys over that. Just being honest about the fact that ok, maybe im not so hype about the new shiny any more since its not that shiny any more, nothing should be surprising about that, and not really in a rush to set aside time to play, ill come back when my ocd kicks back in as usual, and prob be seen playing 24 hour stretches for a completely unknown stretch of time till it calms down again as usual, nothing new happening here, no big incentive for me to be interested on being here on day one.

just my little two cents again, after waiting to see what happened. take it for what its worth another drop in the bucket.

knifeinthedark · May 27

sans-culottes wrote: »

knifeinthedark wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

knifeinthedark wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

By now, the debates are well-rehearsed. Subclassing is either the great liberation from ESO’s rigid class silos or the final blow to its already threadbare identity system. Some cheer the possibilities. Others see only entropy.

But perhaps the more interesting question isn’t whether subclassing is good or bad. It’s whether subclassing is even the real issue.

Because what if subclassing feels like the cause but is really just the symptom?

What if this Frankenstein patchwork of skill lines and re-skinned passives is less an act of bold experimentation and more a desperate attempt to cover structural rot? What if the real problem is that ESO’s class system, long underdeveloped and out of step with its own lore, has finally collapsed under its own contradictions? What if subclassing is just the bandage?

You can see it in Necromancer, a class so dysfunctional in core design that subclassing only highlights its incoherence. Or in the recurring cycle of homogenization that began with hybridization and now intensifies as class distinctions are flattened even further. This isn’t creative freedom. It is design surrender.

Subclassing isn’t the monster. It is the panic response to a decade of deferred decisions, neglected systems, and ill-fitting mechanics. The question is no longer whether subclassing fits the game. The question is: does anything?

So was subclassing the monster, or was it just what ZOS stitched together to distract from what’s really on the slab?

Come up to the lab and see what’s on the slab.

The classes themselves are most certainly not "underdeveloped" lol. There's lots of depth there that allows most classes to fulfill any role with competency.

And it being out of step with the lore? Oh give me a break they retcon stuff all the time it's almost a meme at this point.

The problem isn't the class system itself, the problem is ZoS is refusing to actually get creative and make a new class that would feel like it fits. We have assassins/blood mages, we have deadric sorcery, we have druid/nature magic and even conjuration and draconic magic etc etc. There's plenty to point at in the classrs themselves that fit snugly in TES lore as is that also provides us with interesting and diverse skills/ways to execute different roles. Again, ZoS simply refuses to ACTUALLY be brave and create a new class or even a new race (like the fox people or even an akaviri themed expansion). Hell they could make a mysticism based mage (thanks for killing that in Skyrim btw) or alteration, or some combination with illusion skills as a means to stun/cc enemies as a support for the group. How about an artificer class that uses dwarven contructs? The possibilities are nearly endless in Elder Scrolls

There's possibilities, they're just throwing the long term players under the bus and trying to start over. It's both reckless and sloppy and even kind of inconsiderate to their long term pvp and pve players.

You may want to reread your own comment, because despite the initial “lol,” you’ve basically made my case for me.

You argue that ZOS refuses to be “brave” and actually create a new class. But why is that? Why, after a decade, have we seen only two new classes? Why is subclassing now being trotted out as a solution?

It is because the existing class system is brittle. Necromancer in particular demonstrates this perfectly. It is a class that was controversial on lore grounds, saddled with overengineered mechanics like corpse micromanagement, and has never found a coherent niche in either PvE or PvP. Subclassing didn’t liberate it. It exposed how unworkable its core design really is.

The issue is not a lack of imagination. It is that the class system ZOS built was never robust enough to evolve. You cannot meaningfully iterate on something that was half-formed to begin with.

And yes, subclassing may offer fun toys for some, but let’s not pretend it is a solution. It is a bypass. A workaround. A tacit admission that they cannot or will not properly support the class framework they created. The “endless possibilities” you mention are theoretical. What we are seeing now is panic-polish, not vision.

So, again, subclassing is not the monster. It is the slab.

No, I didn't make your point. My point was the current classes are unique enough from one another in how each executes its' role uniquely within a group whether that be pvp or pve. A nightblade most certainly does not tank like an arcanist and a dk does not dps like a templar, they are very very different while also possessing pretty complete kits of class skills that allow them all sorts of options from group and self heals to unique dps abilities and enemy debuffs, so no I don't need to reread my comment, you need to develop better understanding of the game itself.

If you don't understand anything I've said it's a skill issue. The classes are not "brittle" as you put it snd you don't even really make a case as to why you think that. You just say "they're brittle" and continue on once again not understanding a whole class (necro). Micro? Yeah, uh, bound armaments, merciless resolve, power of the light all are micromanaged parts of a dps rotation... What's wrong with micromanaging certain skills exactly? Especially when they fit with the theme of a particular class. Necromancy was a hot topic in Oblivion in terms of ethics and was a type of magic in itself the player basically largely didn't have access to aside from corpse reanimation.

And as far as Necro not finding a niche, did you even read my comment? Again, skill issue. I'll repeat it a third time in case you willfully ignored it: ALL classes are capable of fulfilling any role with the right skill and armor setup, each can have their own unique niche. Nightblades are excellent single target and execute, Necros are DoT focused as far as dps goes, as well as using corpses to do damage to enemies much like... a necromancer would do, how very... niche of them. And the tanking is more debuff heavy than other classes. Dks are a mix of both in dps, dominantly DoT based but with a strong single target ability in the whip.

The actual problem is with things like hybridization and now this coming change ZoS keeps diluting things.

Here's some more ideas better than subclassing: Sea Elf race. Conjuration based class that uses summoned weapons and armors as skills which could open the door to all new gear sets focused around summoning because really we have one relevant one (corpse buster) and a now mostly useless one in necropotence.

I've already talked about Illusion, Alteration and Mysticism, those would be awesome throwbacks they could really tinker around with to create a whole new class.

As far as classes being a problem... Skyrim introduced archetypes and even at that in Oblivion or Morrowind plenty of people saw no problem with using archetypes themselves like battlemages, warriors or pure mages so I don't see why taking the different skillsets present in TES and making theme specific classes out of them is such a "monster" to begin with.

Perhaps one of the real issues is with the community being unable to feel contentment, we have most of the themed skillsets from TES all represented by the current classes and skills/skillsets outside of those classes that represent things like destruction magic, alchemy and the guilds. Maybe people shold've been glad for what we've had and look to expansive content that centers itself around exploring the universe itself instead of focusing purely on having new toys to play with. I'm happy having multiple tanks and dps characters that all play differently from each other, what keeps me coming back is the uniqueness of the group content mechanics, trials and dungeons are all so different and provide different challenges and experiences based in fundamental and advanced skills of the players themselves. A new class and race would help, but also learning to accept classes and how MMOs hit this sort of wall in general would also be good.

Every MMO eventually runs out of in universe classes/skills to explore. That's ok, there's other ways to keep the game going.

You’ve now written multiple posts trying to reframe subclassing as a symptom of player entitlement, arguing that people “should’ve been glad” with what we had and that MMOs naturally “hit a wall.” But each time, your own examples betray the real issue.

You invoke Necromancer as once desirable because of Blastbones applying Major Defile. But that proves my point. The class was carried by a single gimmick, not a robust or coherent design. Once a cleaner, more synergistic option like Arcanist arrived, the illusion collapsed.

You suggest that subclassing opens “massive build variety,” yet concede it’s ultimately a workaround for ZOS’s refusal to invest in bold new systems like a full class or race. You argue players should accept that all MMOs “run out of skills,” yet your solution is to inject more skills via subclassing.

These contradictions aren’t accidental. They stem from a defensive position that tries to rationalize structural decay as player impatience. But what players are responding to isn’t lack of novelty. It’s the sense that ZOS is no longer developing forward, only sideways. Subclassing isn’t evolution. It’s evasion. And deep down, I think you know that.

It was never my position that sublassing wasn't simply "moving sideways." In case you misunderstood, my point has always been that sublassing is really not the solution to a lack of new content to play with, and is basically a cop out by ZoS that they've either run out of ideas for races/classes and/or don't really know how to balance the game. And no, my solution wasn't subclassing, it was actually the opposite, introduce more classes based on the skills we've seen from the single player games. Either that or as I said, acknowledge that maybe we have close to 90% representation for everything in TES universe as is and we should be content with that, maybe we should be more focused on exploring in universe lore and other things?

As far as build variety... Yeah subclassing will allow tons of new combinations that in some sense already existed in coordinated group content but if people want to mix things up even more they will be able to now. If that makes people happy then it's not exactly a terrible thing so long as pure classing can remain competitive.

I wonder, what to you is "structural decay?" You keep mentioning it as the true problem, yet is is a vague and nebulous thing it seems because you haven't given a solid definition or example. You say that ZoS needs to "develop forward" yet you mock the idea of injecting new classes with skills that represent certain skill lines from the single player games?

Is structural decay to you how certain classes identities' are being diluted by gear sets that allow other classes to fulfill a given niche, therefore diluting class identity? Is it classes continuously getting their unique applications in groups nerfed patch after patch? I'm genuinely curious for you to boil down this assertion you've made because I've yet to see you make a cohesive argument for it. Every class so far has had SOME version of CC based abilities, AoEs, DoTs, resistance buffs like major resolve etc. Again like I said before more than once this is done to ensure any class can do any role but all of them will execute it differently, and the group will have to adapt to said differences in execution. Pray tell, what exactly about warden or arcanist doesn't represent what you call "structural decay?" Seeing as how every class has those aforementioned tools to be used, isn't everything already somewhat close to being homogeneous? Wouldn't that mean that the primary differences between classes is not only what I have described so far but also a result of the aesthetics and the *way* in which they reach point B from point A? Roles have goals, and the way in which they are reached as far as execution and visual aesthetic goes is still unique to the classes as they stand now, gear sets that replace certain abilities excluded.

To your necro point... You keep going back and forth, do you want a niche or not? You say it's gimmicky, ok the Sorc being the only way to get minor prophecy in a group is also a gimmick? I would argue that necros bring more than just major defile, they bring AoE based fears and other effects that are implemented with some uniqueness, you can fear on a nb, but AFAIK it isn't an AoE edit: thanks @YandereGirlfriend for informing me that nb does indeed have a fear AoE in mass hysteria, though IIRC the necro fear AoE is also a DoT. Point is every class to this point has had a visual identity and unique passives and abilities to match the identity.

Sure you can AoE CC with soul tether but that's not the same as a fear, being able to do both sequentially is a group tactic in itself to strain enemy resources and it's a type of interaction unique to those classes synergizing together. The goal was to create a class that used abilities that fit a theme and aesthetic and wasn't overpowered and I think they accomplished that before over nerfing it as they are prone to do, unlike with the arcanist.

To the point about entitlement, yeah to some extent it pretty much is. The community wants to "play how they want" but are also oblivious to how the changes they ask for get implemented horribly and prevent others from playing how they want as well, and honestly the solution seems extremely simple to me: do something to keep pure classes competitive. That's it. That's literally all I'm arguing for. Having archetypes that focus on a specific if stereotypical identity will actually create a healthy core for the game. If illusionist assassins were weak in Oblivion then the nb class itself would've been useless but it wasn't, it was quite strong. Keeping pure classes competitive will make it so all character identities can be useful, not just a narrow set of passives and skills that get used because everything else is weaker by miles, we all know that basically every combat/magic related skill line in Oblivion was strong and useful, very few things were completely useless, subclassing being implemented as it is on the test server will result in many skill lines being discarded, literally the opposite of the identity of a game like Oblivion.

Btw Arcanist is not "cleaner" or more "synergistic." Nb rotations find synergy in hitting your weave properly and being rewarded with the bow proc, having your resistances up often because you cast your shade as soon as it expires, every class including necro have abilities that work in harmony with each other and/or the group, which is synergistic in itself. Each class can provide some unique things like I said, AoE fears and the like. So far in my experience any group with a different combination of classes all feel and execute differently.

Arcanist is just straight up overpowered, it has access to an ability that does more damage than any ultimate in the entire game including their own and a kit that has basically the best of all worlds, with maybe the exception of tanking but even then definitely competitive with other tanks. Arcanist was introduced as a class design that was very "new player" friendly and you can clearly see it in both the dps rotation as well as the way healing/tanking is executed. It was a class meant to embody a theme and abilities and visuals that reflected being a Hermaeus Mora worshipper and they mostly accomplished it except they made it grossly and unnecessarily overpowered, it definitely scratches that "Hermaeus Mora" itch but it also overshadows every other dps around it. What's the point of having other dps in the group when you can just get all the passives you need from supports and simply have every dps spec into a hybridized arc beam build?

If you're complaining about structural decay, why not just agree that this new update only scratches that "rp" itch of being able to have abilities that fit a character theme (dark sorcerer or whatever) and that while that's nice for roleplaying purposes making sure we all stay relevant is more important? Wouldn't that stave off decay?

As for the ACTUAL solution I genuinely don't understand what you mean by "structural decay" unless of course my assumption about your point is correct in which case... They could just change some passives and sets to make sure some classes are the only one that can provide certain things (like minor prophecy). Or will that be just a gimmick?

What to you separates a specific ability from a "gimmick?" What about the uniqueness in what kinds of buffs etc. a certain class can bring organically isn't considered a niche? Is a niche to you a class being the only one that can provide something like an AoE CC (nb, necro and dk can all do this with just skills). What is a niche to you if the answers up to this point are "these things are just gimmicks and aren't actual fulfillment of a niche?" Because do recall, necro was the only way to get major vulnerability at one point and is also the only way to use the undead and forbidden magic in the lore surrounding that identity as tools in game. A lot of class identity is aesthetics, not just specific capabilities within the group (basically any class can fulfill the CC role).

So again, and I am being genuine here, what is a niche to you? A class being specifically designed for group buffs with unique buffs in the kit? A class having a strong focus on a particular type of damage (elemental or AoE?), is it being stronger the higher the enemy health as opposed to being an executioner? Which classes/builds satisfy this requirement to you? I would like to understand, because as it stands right now the arcanist is the bane of niche applications to classes, due to current gear sets and class specific power the arcanist basically replaces anything it wants to and probably does the job even better with a lower skill floor, it's so damn easy to play it.

You seem to lack the desire to take multiple perspectives which is exactly what I am trying to do. You don't seem to understand that two diametrically opposing ideas can be simultaneously true, it's sort of the nature of existence itself, there's two sides to everything and really it's basically never black/white, it's all just a mixture of grays.

Subclassing will satisfy certain desires the community has had regarding TES core identity as a "create the character you want" game, but it will as a result largely dilute class identity even more than the aforementioned gear sets have, and going to a classless system in general will result in entire approaches to all three roles just straight up dying off, it will narrow down what is actually effective enough to complete higher difficulty stuff, just like hybridization but worse, changing this game to completely reflect the character creation of the single player titles will be the death of any and all diversity at endgame. You wanna see true decay? Just do the "create the character you want" thing and you'll see one build for dos, and two to three at most for the supports and the rest will be so far below they won't be strong enough to complete hard content, the gap between the "best" builds and the "off-meta but still strong builds" will grow an ungodly amount.

I miss the days when not everyone had to run DW to be effective...

YandereGirlfriend · May 27

knifeinthedark wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

knifeinthedark wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

knifeinthedark wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

By now, the debates are well-rehearsed. Subclassing is either the great liberation from ESO’s rigid class silos or the final blow to its already threadbare identity system. Some cheer the possibilities. Others see only entropy.

But perhaps the more interesting question isn’t whether subclassing is good or bad. It’s whether subclassing is even the real issue.

Because what if subclassing feels like the cause but is really just the symptom?

What if this Frankenstein patchwork of skill lines and re-skinned passives is less an act of bold experimentation and more a desperate attempt to cover structural rot? What if the real problem is that ESO’s class system, long underdeveloped and out of step with its own lore, has finally collapsed under its own contradictions? What if subclassing is just the bandage?

You can see it in Necromancer, a class so dysfunctional in core design that subclassing only highlights its incoherence. Or in the recurring cycle of homogenization that began with hybridization and now intensifies as class distinctions are flattened even further. This isn’t creative freedom. It is design surrender.

Subclassing isn’t the monster. It is the panic response to a decade of deferred decisions, neglected systems, and ill-fitting mechanics. The question is no longer whether subclassing fits the game. The question is: does anything?

So was subclassing the monster, or was it just what ZOS stitched together to distract from what’s really on the slab?

Come up to the lab and see what’s on the slab.

The classes themselves are most certainly not "underdeveloped" lol. There's lots of depth there that allows most classes to fulfill any role with competency.

And it being out of step with the lore? Oh give me a break they retcon stuff all the time it's almost a meme at this point.

The problem isn't the class system itself, the problem is ZoS is refusing to actually get creative and make a new class that would feel like it fits. We have assassins/blood mages, we have deadric sorcery, we have druid/nature magic and even conjuration and draconic magic etc etc. There's plenty to point at in the classrs themselves that fit snugly in TES lore as is that also provides us with interesting and diverse skills/ways to execute different roles. Again, ZoS simply refuses to ACTUALLY be brave and create a new class or even a new race (like the fox people or even an akaviri themed expansion). Hell they could make a mysticism based mage (thanks for killing that in Skyrim btw) or alteration, or some combination with illusion skills as a means to stun/cc enemies as a support for the group. How about an artificer class that uses dwarven contructs? The possibilities are nearly endless in Elder Scrolls

There's possibilities, they're just throwing the long term players under the bus and trying to start over. It's both reckless and sloppy and even kind of inconsiderate to their long term pvp and pve players.

You may want to reread your own comment, because despite the initial “lol,” you’ve basically made my case for me.

You argue that ZOS refuses to be “brave” and actually create a new class. But why is that? Why, after a decade, have we seen only two new classes? Why is subclassing now being trotted out as a solution?

It is because the existing class system is brittle. Necromancer in particular demonstrates this perfectly. It is a class that was controversial on lore grounds, saddled with overengineered mechanics like corpse micromanagement, and has never found a coherent niche in either PvE or PvP. Subclassing didn’t liberate it. It exposed how unworkable its core design really is.

The issue is not a lack of imagination. It is that the class system ZOS built was never robust enough to evolve. You cannot meaningfully iterate on something that was half-formed to begin with.

And yes, subclassing may offer fun toys for some, but let’s not pretend it is a solution. It is a bypass. A workaround. A tacit admission that they cannot or will not properly support the class framework they created. The “endless possibilities” you mention are theoretical. What we are seeing now is panic-polish, not vision.

So, again, subclassing is not the monster. It is the slab.

No, I didn't make your point. My point was the current classes are unique enough from one another in how each executes its' role uniquely within a group whether that be pvp or pve. A nightblade most certainly does not tank like an arcanist and a dk does not dps like a templar, they are very very different while also possessing pretty complete kits of class skills that allow them all sorts of options from group and self heals to unique dps abilities and enemy debuffs, so no I don't need to reread my comment, you need to develop better understanding of the game itself.

If you don't understand anything I've said it's a skill issue. The classes are not "brittle" as you put it snd you don't even really make a case as to why you think that. You just say "they're brittle" and continue on once again not understanding a whole class (necro). Micro? Yeah, uh, bound armaments, merciless resolve, power of the light all are micromanaged parts of a dps rotation... What's wrong with micromanaging certain skills exactly? Especially when they fit with the theme of a particular class. Necromancy was a hot topic in Oblivion in terms of ethics and was a type of magic in itself the player basically largely didn't have access to aside from corpse reanimation.

And as far as Necro not finding a niche, did you even read my comment? Again, skill issue. I'll repeat it a third time in case you willfully ignored it: ALL classes are capable of fulfilling any role with the right skill and armor setup, each can have their own unique niche. Nightblades are excellent single target and execute, Necros are DoT focused as far as dps goes, as well as using corpses to do damage to enemies much like... a necromancer would do, how very... niche of them. And the tanking is more debuff heavy than other classes. Dks are a mix of both in dps, dominantly DoT based but with a strong single target ability in the whip.

The actual problem is with things like hybridization and now this coming change ZoS keeps diluting things.

Here's some more ideas better than subclassing: Sea Elf race. Conjuration based class that uses summoned weapons and armors as skills which could open the door to all new gear sets focused around summoning because really we have one relevant one (corpse buster) and a now mostly useless one in necropotence.

I've already talked about Illusion, Alteration and Mysticism, those would be awesome throwbacks they could really tinker around with to create a whole new class.

As far as classes being a problem... Skyrim introduced archetypes and even at that in Oblivion or Morrowind plenty of people saw no problem with using archetypes themselves like battlemages, warriors or pure mages so I don't see why taking the different skillsets present in TES and making theme specific classes out of them is such a "monster" to begin with.

Perhaps one of the real issues is with the community being unable to feel contentment, we have most of the themed skillsets from TES all represented by the current classes and skills/skillsets outside of those classes that represent things like destruction magic, alchemy and the guilds. Maybe people shold've been glad for what we've had and look to expansive content that centers itself around exploring the universe itself instead of focusing purely on having new toys to play with. I'm happy having multiple tanks and dps characters that all play differently from each other, what keeps me coming back is the uniqueness of the group content mechanics, trials and dungeons are all so different and provide different challenges and experiences based in fundamental and advanced skills of the players themselves. A new class and race would help, but also learning to accept classes and how MMOs hit this sort of wall in general would also be good.

Every MMO eventually runs out of in universe classes/skills to explore. That's ok, there's other ways to keep the game going.

You’ve now written multiple posts trying to reframe subclassing as a symptom of player entitlement, arguing that people “should’ve been glad” with what we had and that MMOs naturally “hit a wall.” But each time, your own examples betray the real issue.

You invoke Necromancer as once desirable because of Blastbones applying Major Defile. But that proves my point. The class was carried by a single gimmick, not a robust or coherent design. Once a cleaner, more synergistic option like Arcanist arrived, the illusion collapsed.

You suggest that subclassing opens “massive build variety,” yet concede it’s ultimately a workaround for ZOS’s refusal to invest in bold new systems like a full class or race. You argue players should accept that all MMOs “run out of skills,” yet your solution is to inject more skills via subclassing.

These contradictions aren’t accidental. They stem from a defensive position that tries to rationalize structural decay as player impatience. But what players are responding to isn’t lack of novelty. It’s the sense that ZOS is no longer developing forward, only sideways. Subclassing isn’t evolution. It’s evasion. And deep down, I think you know that.

It was never my position that sublassing wasn't simply "moving sideways." In case you misunderstood, my point has always been that sublassing is really not the solution to a lack of new content to play with, and is basically a cop out by ZoS that they've either run out of ideas for races/classes and/or don't really know how to balance the game. And no, my solution wasn't subclassing, it was actually the opposite, introduce more classes based on the skills we've seen fron the single player games. Either that or as I said, acknowledge that maybe we have close to maximum representation for everything in TES universe as is and we should be content with that.

I wonder, what to you is "structural decay?" Is it how certain classes identities' are being diluted by gear sets that allow other classes to fulfill a given niche, therefore diluting class identity? I'm genuinely curious for you to boil down this assertion you've made because I've yet to see you make a cohesive argument for it.

To your necro point... You keep going back and forth, do you want a niche or not? You say it's gimmicky, ok the Sorc being the only way to get minor prophecy in a group is also a gimmick? I would argue that necros bring more than just major defile, they bring AoE based fears and other effects that are implemented with some uniqueness, you can fear on a nb, but AFAIK it isn't an AoE. Sure you can AoE CC with soul tether but that's not the same as a fear, being able to do both sequentially is a group tactic in itself to strain enemy resources and it's a type of interaction unique to those classes synergizing together. The goal was to create a class that used abilities that fit a theme and aesthetic and wasn't overpowered and I think they accomplished that, unlike the arcanist.

To the point about entitlement, yeah to some extent it pretty much is. The community wants to "play how they want" but are also oblivious to how the changes they ask for get implemented horribly and prevent others from playing how they want as well, and honestly the solution seems extremely simple to me: do something to keep pure classes competitive. That's it. That's literally all I'm arguing for.

Btw Arcanist is not "cleaner" or more "synergistic," Arcanist is just straight up overpowered, it has access to an ability that does more damage than any ultimate in the entire game including their own and a kit that has basically the best of all worlds, with maybe the exception of tanking but even then definitely competitive with other tanks. Arcanist was introduced as a class design that was very "new player" friendly and you can clearly see it in both the dps rotation as well as the way healing/tanking is executed. It was a class meant to embody a theme and abilities and visuals that reflected that and they mostly accomplished it except they made it grossly and unnecessarily overpowered, it definitely scratches that "Hermaeus Mora" itch but it also overshadows every other dps around it, what's the point of having other dps in the group when you can just get all the passives you need from supports and simply have every dps spec into a hybridized arc beam build?

If you're complaining about structural decay, why not just agree that this new update only scratches that "rp" itch of being able to have abilities that fit a character theme (dark sorcerer or whatever) and that while that's nice for roleplaying purposes making sure we all stay relevant is more important?

As for the ACTUAL solution I genuinely don't understand what you mean by "structural decay" unless of course my assumption about your point is correct in which case... They could just change some passives and sets to make sure some classes are the only one that can provide certain things (like minor prophecy). Or will that be just a gimmick?

What to you separates a cohesive class theme from a "gimmick?" Because do recall, necro was the only way to get major vulnerability at one point and was also the only way to use the undead and forbidden magic in the lroe surrounding that identity as tools in game.

This isn't in conversation with what you're saying but NB has the best AOE Fear in the game with Mass Hysteria. It's first place my miles and miles and miles.

knifeinthedark · May 27

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

You’ve now written multiple posts trying to reframe subclassing as a symptom of player entitlement, arguing that people “should’ve been glad” with what we had and that MMOs naturally “hit a wall.” But each time, your own examples betray the real issue.

You invoke Necromancer as once desirable because of Blastbones applying Major Defile. But that proves my point. The class was carried by a single gimmick, not a robust or coherent design. Once a cleaner, more synergistic option like Arcanist arrived, the illusion collapsed.

You suggest that subclassing opens “massive build variety,” yet concede it’s ultimately a workaround for ZOS’s refusal to invest in bold new systems like a full class or race. You argue players should accept that all MMOs “run out of skills,” yet your solution is to inject more skills via subclassing.

These contradictions aren’t accidental. They stem from a defensive position that tries to rationalize structural decay as player impatience. But what players are responding to isn’t lack of novelty. It’s the sense that ZOS is no longer developing forward, only sideways. Subclassing isn’t evolution. It’s evasion. And deep down, I think you know that.

Necros was relaying too much on the game mechanichs that got butchered. Magcros was really strong burst class with graverobber dealing massive damage but being a huge 20 sec CD, but then zos deleted harmony and nerfed graverobber in the same patch, stamcros was insanely tanky with 30% major protection from deaden pain, combined with 20% damage reduction from ghost wich both got nerfed, in PvE necros was desirable beacuase this was only class to provide major vuln, that was 30% increased damage taken, wich also got nerf with major/minor effects rework.

Necros were realesed in a whole different game from now, and while game was changing, necros were silently decaying in a corner, completly unattended, loosing their power patch after patch.

The same can be said of warden and that seems to be the ZoS model up to this point; release class, make class OP, nerf class continuously after initial spike in sales, allow class to have its' unique qualities to be entirely replaced by gear sets, rinse and repeat.

Now it seems they want to do away with the idea that anything is OP and their plan for that as well as trying to satisfy the roleplaying/questing community is allowing access to any skill line and passive on any character so no one can claim something else is OP. Arcanist is the only actual OP class in this game...

knifeinthedark · May 28

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

knifeinthedark wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

knifeinthedark wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

knifeinthedark wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

By now, the debates are well-rehearsed. Subclassing is either the great liberation from ESO’s rigid class silos or the final blow to its already threadbare identity system. Some cheer the possibilities. Others see only entropy.

But perhaps the more interesting question isn’t whether subclassing is good or bad. It’s whether subclassing is even the real issue.

Because what if subclassing feels like the cause but is really just the symptom?

What if this Frankenstein patchwork of skill lines and re-skinned passives is less an act of bold experimentation and more a desperate attempt to cover structural rot? What if the real problem is that ESO’s class system, long underdeveloped and out of step with its own lore, has finally collapsed under its own contradictions? What if subclassing is just the bandage?

You can see it in Necromancer, a class so dysfunctional in core design that subclassing only highlights its incoherence. Or in the recurring cycle of homogenization that began with hybridization and now intensifies as class distinctions are flattened even further. This isn’t creative freedom. It is design surrender.

Subclassing isn’t the monster. It is the panic response to a decade of deferred decisions, neglected systems, and ill-fitting mechanics. The question is no longer whether subclassing fits the game. The question is: does anything?

So was subclassing the monster, or was it just what ZOS stitched together to distract from what’s really on the slab?

Come up to the lab and see what’s on the slab.

The classes themselves are most certainly not "underdeveloped" lol. There's lots of depth there that allows most classes to fulfill any role with competency.

And it being out of step with the lore? Oh give me a break they retcon stuff all the time it's almost a meme at this point.

The problem isn't the class system itself, the problem is ZoS is refusing to actually get creative and make a new class that would feel like it fits. We have assassins/blood mages, we have deadric sorcery, we have druid/nature magic and even conjuration and draconic magic etc etc. There's plenty to point at in the classrs themselves that fit snugly in TES lore as is that also provides us with interesting and diverse skills/ways to execute different roles. Again, ZoS simply refuses to ACTUALLY be brave and create a new class or even a new race (like the fox people or even an akaviri themed expansion). Hell they could make a mysticism based mage (thanks for killing that in Skyrim btw) or alteration, or some combination with illusion skills as a means to stun/cc enemies as a support for the group. How about an artificer class that uses dwarven contructs? The possibilities are nearly endless in Elder Scrolls

There's possibilities, they're just throwing the long term players under the bus and trying to start over. It's both reckless and sloppy and even kind of inconsiderate to their long term pvp and pve players.

You may want to reread your own comment, because despite the initial “lol,” you’ve basically made my case for me.

You argue that ZOS refuses to be “brave” and actually create a new class. But why is that? Why, after a decade, have we seen only two new classes? Why is subclassing now being trotted out as a solution?

It is because the existing class system is brittle. Necromancer in particular demonstrates this perfectly. It is a class that was controversial on lore grounds, saddled with overengineered mechanics like corpse micromanagement, and has never found a coherent niche in either PvE or PvP. Subclassing didn’t liberate it. It exposed how unworkable its core design really is.

The issue is not a lack of imagination. It is that the class system ZOS built was never robust enough to evolve. You cannot meaningfully iterate on something that was half-formed to begin with.

And yes, subclassing may offer fun toys for some, but let’s not pretend it is a solution. It is a bypass. A workaround. A tacit admission that they cannot or will not properly support the class framework they created. The “endless possibilities” you mention are theoretical. What we are seeing now is panic-polish, not vision.

So, again, subclassing is not the monster. It is the slab.

No, I didn't make your point. My point was the current classes are unique enough from one another in how each executes its' role uniquely within a group whether that be pvp or pve. A nightblade most certainly does not tank like an arcanist and a dk does not dps like a templar, they are very very different while also possessing pretty complete kits of class skills that allow them all sorts of options from group and self heals to unique dps abilities and enemy debuffs, so no I don't need to reread my comment, you need to develop better understanding of the game itself.

If you don't understand anything I've said it's a skill issue. The classes are not "brittle" as you put it snd you don't even really make a case as to why you think that. You just say "they're brittle" and continue on once again not understanding a whole class (necro). Micro? Yeah, uh, bound armaments, merciless resolve, power of the light all are micromanaged parts of a dps rotation... What's wrong with micromanaging certain skills exactly? Especially when they fit with the theme of a particular class. Necromancy was a hot topic in Oblivion in terms of ethics and was a type of magic in itself the player basically largely didn't have access to aside from corpse reanimation.

And as far as Necro not finding a niche, did you even read my comment? Again, skill issue. I'll repeat it a third time in case you willfully ignored it: ALL classes are capable of fulfilling any role with the right skill and armor setup, each can have their own unique niche. Nightblades are excellent single target and execute, Necros are DoT focused as far as dps goes, as well as using corpses to do damage to enemies much like... a necromancer would do, how very... niche of them. And the tanking is more debuff heavy than other classes. Dks are a mix of both in dps, dominantly DoT based but with a strong single target ability in the whip.

The actual problem is with things like hybridization and now this coming change ZoS keeps diluting things.

Here's some more ideas better than subclassing: Sea Elf race. Conjuration based class that uses summoned weapons and armors as skills which could open the door to all new gear sets focused around summoning because really we have one relevant one (corpse buster) and a now mostly useless one in necropotence.

I've already talked about Illusion, Alteration and Mysticism, those would be awesome throwbacks they could really tinker around with to create a whole new class.

As far as classes being a problem... Skyrim introduced archetypes and even at that in Oblivion or Morrowind plenty of people saw no problem with using archetypes themselves like battlemages, warriors or pure mages so I don't see why taking the different skillsets present in TES and making theme specific classes out of them is such a "monster" to begin with.

Perhaps one of the real issues is with the community being unable to feel contentment, we have most of the themed skillsets from TES all represented by the current classes and skills/skillsets outside of those classes that represent things like destruction magic, alchemy and the guilds. Maybe people shold've been glad for what we've had and look to expansive content that centers itself around exploring the universe itself instead of focusing purely on having new toys to play with. I'm happy having multiple tanks and dps characters that all play differently from each other, what keeps me coming back is the uniqueness of the group content mechanics, trials and dungeons are all so different and provide different challenges and experiences based in fundamental and advanced skills of the players themselves. A new class and race would help, but also learning to accept classes and how MMOs hit this sort of wall in general would also be good.

Every MMO eventually runs out of in universe classes/skills to explore. That's ok, there's other ways to keep the game going.

You’ve now written multiple posts trying to reframe subclassing as a symptom of player entitlement, arguing that people “should’ve been glad” with what we had and that MMOs naturally “hit a wall.” But each time, your own examples betray the real issue.

You invoke Necromancer as once desirable because of Blastbones applying Major Defile. But that proves my point. The class was carried by a single gimmick, not a robust or coherent design. Once a cleaner, more synergistic option like Arcanist arrived, the illusion collapsed.

You suggest that subclassing opens “massive build variety,” yet concede it’s ultimately a workaround for ZOS’s refusal to invest in bold new systems like a full class or race. You argue players should accept that all MMOs “run out of skills,” yet your solution is to inject more skills via subclassing.

These contradictions aren’t accidental. They stem from a defensive position that tries to rationalize structural decay as player impatience. But what players are responding to isn’t lack of novelty. It’s the sense that ZOS is no longer developing forward, only sideways. Subclassing isn’t evolution. It’s evasion. And deep down, I think you know that.

It was never my position that sublassing wasn't simply "moving sideways." In case you misunderstood, my point has always been that sublassing is really not the solution to a lack of new content to play with, and is basically a cop out by ZoS that they've either run out of ideas for races/classes and/or don't really know how to balance the game. And no, my solution wasn't subclassing, it was actually the opposite, introduce more classes based on the skills we've seen fron the single player games. Either that or as I said, acknowledge that maybe we have close to maximum representation for everything in TES universe as is and we should be content with that.

I wonder, what to you is "structural decay?" Is it how certain classes identities' are being diluted by gear sets that allow other classes to fulfill a given niche, therefore diluting class identity? I'm genuinely curious for you to boil down this assertion you've made because I've yet to see you make a cohesive argument for it.

To your necro point... You keep going back and forth, do you want a niche or not? You say it's gimmicky, ok the Sorc being the only way to get minor prophecy in a group is also a gimmick? I would argue that necros bring more than just major defile, they bring AoE based fears and other effects that are implemented with some uniqueness, you can fear on a nb, but AFAIK it isn't an AoE. Sure you can AoE CC with soul tether but that's not the same as a fear, being able to do both sequentially is a group tactic in itself to strain enemy resources and it's a type of interaction unique to those classes synergizing together. The goal was to create a class that used abilities that fit a theme and aesthetic and wasn't overpowered and I think they accomplished that, unlike the arcanist.

To the point about entitlement, yeah to some extent it pretty much is. The community wants to "play how they want" but are also oblivious to how the changes they ask for get implemented horribly and prevent others from playing how they want as well, and honestly the solution seems extremely simple to me: do something to keep pure classes competitive. That's it. That's literally all I'm arguing for.

Btw Arcanist is not "cleaner" or more "synergistic," Arcanist is just straight up overpowered, it has access to an ability that does more damage than any ultimate in the entire game including their own and a kit that has basically the best of all worlds, with maybe the exception of tanking but even then definitely competitive with other tanks. Arcanist was introduced as a class design that was very "new player" friendly and you can clearly see it in both the dps rotation as well as the way healing/tanking is executed. It was a class meant to embody a theme and abilities and visuals that reflected that and they mostly accomplished it except they made it grossly and unnecessarily overpowered, it definitely scratches that "Hermaeus Mora" itch but it also overshadows every other dps around it, what's the point of having other dps in the group when you can just get all the passives you need from supports and simply have every dps spec into a hybridized arc beam build?

If you're complaining about structural decay, why not just agree that this new update only scratches that "rp" itch of being able to have abilities that fit a character theme (dark sorcerer or whatever) and that while that's nice for roleplaying purposes making sure we all stay relevant is more important?

As for the ACTUAL solution I genuinely don't understand what you mean by "structural decay" unless of course my assumption about your point is correct in which case... They could just change some passives and sets to make sure some classes are the only one that can provide certain things (like minor prophecy). Or will that be just a gimmick?

What to you separates a cohesive class theme from a "gimmick?" Because do recall, necro was the only way to get major vulnerability at one point and was also the only way to use the undead and forbidden magic in the lroe surrounding that identity as tools in game.

This isn't in conversation with what you're saying but NB has the best AOE Fear in the game with Mass Hysteria. It's first place my miles and miles and miles.

Thanks for the knowledge. The example might be off but my point remains; some classes can do things others can't but that'll disappear with subclassing.

I'm curious though what makes mass hysteria any better than the necro AoE fear?

knifeinthedark · May 28

sans-culottes wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Agreed. It’s highly unlikely that new players with no real ESO experience are saying, “Finally, I can make a Warden, Necromancer, Dragonknight hybrid. Sign me up.”

Counterpoint: highly likely they'll say "Wow cool you can use whatever you want like in Skyrim, sign me up!"

But you’re still forced to choose a class. You still start as a Warden, a Dragonknight, a Templar—just with extra steps later.

“Use whatever you want like in Skyrim” is a strange claim when subclassing doesn’t remove class choice, it just muddies it. At best, it’s not Skyrim with friends. It’s Skyrim with prerequisites.

The fantasy of total freedom dies the moment you hit character creation. What follows is just a series of workarounds.

I think I understand you now. You want this game to be another "make whatever you want" single player experience. If you want to do any DLC veteran group content you're gonna end up being some sort of archetype... Either pure damage or pure tank, you won't be this "I'm tanky and do damage and I am a warrior and a mage and an archer" thing you did in Skyrim or Oblivion.

Also, this approach will only narrow down what is considered "good enough" to complete the hardest content, where we once had endgame diversity, we will have extremely narrow choices.

Nihilr · May 28

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
Sorta, was too excited about the feature, fumbled through it to just quickly try out dream-builds. Just being honest...

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
Yeah, despite logging in to each class of character I've made, it was disappointing that the abilities had to be leveled from scratch on each character.

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
I didn't finish leveling the skills, neither did my husband. We were just trying the system out before sinking too much time into something that won't matter until it's live. Sorry, we thought that if we mastered the skills on other characters that those skill lines would be unlocked automatically on other characters to use immediately. Not a complaint, just not using PTS to grind a whole skill line twice (once for testing) and again for-real.

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
Absolutely. One of the best features added to make this a true elder scrolls game.

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
Not so much the system, as much as we had fun theorycrafting our build ideas once subclassing was announced!

Sordidfairytale · May 29

Sorcerer class specifics have an identity crisis.

The Oblivion Beacon Class set for Sorcerers counts other class pets as permanent pets, (even though Daedric Prey doesn't buff them). The Necromancer's archer is definitely not a permanent pet, since it has a cool down, but this pet triggers the health and resistance buff and negates the damage bonus buff from the set when no "permanent" pets are active.

And when using the Class Script on a scribed ability, the pets for necromancer don't heal, you instead apply the shock damage as if you do not have a pet.