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PTS Update 46 - Feedback Thread for Subclassing

  • BahometZ
    BahometZ
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    Silaf wrote: »
    Most of the problems would be solved by only having 1 subclassed line instead of 2.

    When they first announced this I assumed that would be the case, because having a class with only one of its own class skill line is cringe.
    Pact Magplar - Max CP (NA XB)
  • Maggusemm
    Maggusemm
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    There is the possibility to have all three class skill lines. There is only the option to interchange class skill lines.

    But I think you are right that there should be something for a class which stays. At the moment everything can be taken out. I vote for a 4th skill line or set of passives which cannot be changed for the class and gives some class identity :)
  • TripGGx
    TripGGx
    Soul Shriven
    This isn't subclassing, it's multiclassing and it feels wrong. As a hundred others said. This will create an abysmal balance issue. Sure it's cool on Paper it screams Elder scrolls but this game was built on the class foundation and should be further expanded and focused on class identity.
    Edited by TripGGx on May 3, 2025 11:42AM
  • Rungar
    Rungar
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    actually the game is built on roles not classes. If it were classes certain classes could only be tanks and certain classes could only be healers and certain classes could only be damage. But it isnt. All classes can do all these things and be generally viable. Some are better than others but a viable for most content.

    you dont need a dragonknight to do a dungeon, you just need a tank. The tank role is completely classless as it relies largely on what weapons and armor you choose. Class is only relevant for a couple key skills which mostly have generic versions.

    all subclassing does is let you make your own custom class. I think they should have a huge competition and see what new classes are the most popular by the end and make those templates available from the beginning, and/or let players choose what three they want.

    the game already has abysmal balance issues due to the way the combat system works. Nothing is going to change that.

    and it should be called custom class not subclassing or multiclassing. Thats what it is.. making a custom class from available skill lines.


    I would also like to see your characters base aura change when you select different subclasses. Right now all base classes have a color aura and i imagine the color is pretty easy to change so i would like to see combined colors for subclasses so it appears different as a whole.

    so if a templar had arcanist abilities.. all class abilities would now have the modified color somewhere in between yellow and green. Same for all other combinations. All they would need is a small algorithm to set colors automatically based on the 3 line choices. If people want to complain about identity.. give them identity.
    Edited by Rungar on May 3, 2025 1:56PM
  • Counter_point
    Counter_point
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    These questions aren't good, guys.
    Only two are worth answering:

    Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live? No and I will try my best to avoid it as possible, if I even decide to continue playing ESO

    Did you have fun experimenting with the system? I mean, yeah, in terms of just *** around not taking anything with a grain of serious consideration for this being a good decision for the game. In the end, I'll just be frankenstein but without any real, cool identity. Imagine if superman could shoot webs like spiderman. That's what this garbage is. Cringe.

    Big pass.
  • illutian
    illutian
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    Silaf wrote: »
    Most of the problems would be solved by only having 1 subclassed line instead of 2.

    Should let us swap all three and rename the Classes to "Adventurer", with any of the variables (ie ClassID) remaining the same; that way they don't need to rewrite large chunks of the code. - Oh and remove the BS "it costs twice the skill points".

    I really do not want to have to split my time between multiple characters because I want to theme each one. Like my Templar will be themed as a DemonDaedra Hunter (Templar/Dragonknight/Nightblade). My Necromancer as a Dark Arts practitioner (Necro/Sorc/Arcanist) of sorts.

    It's not too bad, because it's just two characters. But that's still doing redoing the Companion quests, redoing the Skill Point Quests, redoing the PD Group Kill, redoing Skyshards, redoing Guild unlock quests. - Frankly do not want to do this. I already did this once; on the main.

    Any issues with ability stacking can be solved by putting in 'hard caps' on stats (Resistance, Penetration, etc) and buffs (ie Shield HP).

    Subclassing should be a means to allow players to create their own character and play it how they like.
    You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.
  • knifeinthedark
    knifeinthedark
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    I implore you to please find the time to read this message, I have been playing TES games since I was 14 and I am writing this because I love ESO.

    I started playing eso shortly after release. At first I played it like I did any ES game and while I had fun, I eventually grew to want more than the overland and quest content. After reaching the appropriate level and getting the undaunted invitation, I came across my first dungeon in normal spindleclutch. A friend I had at the time who was a healer did the dungeon with me, it took us two hours, but I loved the challenge. Slowly over the years I evolved from light attacking everything to death, to tanking, to being a not so good dps to one that struggled to get Stormproof. Eventually I grew to achieve rank 67 on the all time leaderboards for vet Maelstrom Arena on Xbox before Vvardenfell released, I was very proud of myself.

    I always loved the roleplaying aspect in ESO, the fact I could create my character's identity, from name and class/function down to fashion like skins and personalities to create my own unique in universe character, backstory and all. I loved that I could do this while also being able to be competitive in endgame content, it meant that the identities I could create, the stories I made could have some sense of "completion," an end so to speak that would be the pinnacle of their stories and development.

    I adore that this game is not like Oblivion and Skyrim, as much as I love those games a change of pace was needed as they were far too similar in gameplay. A whole new way to play an Elder Scrolls game was needed but that seems to be fading.

    I sadly watched as people that wanted this game to be just another Elder Scrolls game were appeased, prior to hybridization magic characters would use staves (it's staves not staffs I will die on this hill Rindir be damned) and stamina characters would evolve from only having DW/bow be viable to having 2h weapons also become viable and even eventually bow/bow! The diversity was beautiful, there were many competitive worn sets and arena weapons and many ways to make an effective build that could be considered to be at least close enough to peak performance to complete any and all content, for every class and every backstory from vampires and werewolves to priests and battlemages (like stamina sorcerers, magplars or stamplars), everything had a place.

    Hybridization eroded endgame diversity, now every effective endgame dps runs DW regardless of being stam or mag, and armor sets for dps characters have been further pared down to basically only medium armor sets being competitive (Rele/deadly anyone? Lol), even mag characters are all running Relequens. I can't remember the last time I met a mag dps using all light armor as I do (because I'm stubborn and insist on making a classic mage work). I have nothing against people that want a battlemage with different armor and abilities, I just want to be able to have mine too.

    I know you plan to scale enemies according to the power jump that is fast approaching. My character, Mauloch Wolfblood, an orcish werewolf warrior skilled in greataxes will lose his identity as a sorcerer that uses his magicks to make his body even stronger, the sets of moves I love using so much will become so incredibly weak by comparison, my entire approach to his identity and his fighting style will be made obsolete should sublassing be implemented as it is currently seen on the PTS. I simply won't do enough damage to complete the content I love while embodying the character I created, all of my hard earned skill over the last ten years will be thrown away in a single update.

    I don't want him to be a sorcerer/nightblade/templar, as in a way that identity is kind of self contradictory, as would having the nightblade line instead be an arcanist line. He is a sorcerer, using magicks and private deals with daedra to increase his power, not a follower of Hermaeus Mora or a stealthy assassin or a holy warrior. Please don't make pure classes go extinct, I love how my nightblade functions now, he is an unruly party boy son of Sanguine that loves to assassinate the enemies of mortals because it's fun, not because he's a good guy. His identity will be washed away with dilution, or otherwise completely destroyed should I do what nearly every endgame player is going to do in equipping the arcanist beam or some other combination in order to stay relevant and be able to play the challenges I love so much. Please don't take this away from me. I have worked very hard to create a guild that has blossomed into an inclusive and diverse group of people all playing for fun and to be challenged, we don't gatekeep and I'm very proud of that. It'll fall apart if ZoS doesn't consider its' longtime players. Please have an open dialogue with us about how players like myself will still be included in the future vision of ESO.

    TL;DR
    Yes this is a wall of text but I promise you there is a relevant story here. Subclassing in its' current form serves only to dumb down the game further, and will make pure classes and how they each complete each other in a sense completely go extinct.
  • knifeinthedark
    knifeinthedark
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    To all the people praising this as being the next new update that'll be awesome, revive the game, screw balancing etc etc, you guys are NOT the lifeblood of this game. The core player base of any MMO has always been and will always be PvP players and dedicated PvE players that enjoy the group based content, overland bosses included.

    Questers will come and go, but the aforementioned groups are the bread and butter of the community. The influx of returning and new players will be a flash in the pan, they'll drop this game once they have had enough of doing insane subclass combos and smashing everything in sight.

    To the others that are saying absurd things about "dummy humping" the muscle memory gained there applies everywhere and while I'm also against gatekeeping, it is a useful way to get better and a fun challenge in itself. What fun is there in being so overpowered you just crap on everything?

    Why does Ultra Nightmare exist in the new Doom games? Why do we have hard modes? Why is there a hard mode in Fallout? Why is there a hardcore mode in New Vegas? We all know why: because being so much more skilled and powerful than the content in front of you is boring as hell, when the victory is inevitable there is no excitement, no real engagement, you can do it half asleep. The challenge itself IS the fun, go ahead, play any other game on the easiest mode you can for hours, you'll get bored way more quickly than you think and you'll be itching to increase the difficulty.

    Balance matters because it creates layers of progression in various skillsets. Pure classes need to stay competitive and content needs to be scaled so as not to make the harder stuff become trivial, and pure classes need to be able to keep up with the demand just as much as subclassed characters. I'm not at all against a person wanting their sorcerer to learn assassination skills, if that's fun to you I think you should have it, I just don't think it should come at the cost of my character becoming absolute garbage by comparison.
    Edited by knifeinthedark on May 6, 2025 12:06AM
  • knifeinthedark
    knifeinthedark
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    Mayrael wrote: »
    Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
    It's pretty clear, understood it exactly as it is before using it.
    Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
    I was a bit confused when I left the shrine for the first time. I could preview the skills but couldn't add or swap skill lines. I had to figure out on my own that I need to speak with NPC.
    How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
    N.A. I was using template
    Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
    Can't wait to use it! It's one of the best changes introduced ever!
    Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
    Yup, I feel like a kid in a candy store :D
    Few words from me
    This is one of the cleverest ways to introduce balance. Congratulations on the idea. Thanks to this, I think in the near future we’ll be able to put an end to the eternal debates about class balance because if something is truly OP, everyone can use it, and a nerf will satisfy most players to a greater or lesser extent. Moreover, it’s a brilliant way to breathe life into classes that have so far had significant gaps in their arsenal. I can’t wait to see what other players come up with.

    Additionally, the way subclassing was introduced is genius. The requirement to give up one of your own skill lines encourages reflection on the strengths and weaknesses of a class. On top of that, the option to choose, for example, just one skill line and keep two of your own ensures that class choice remains important but not as definitive as it used to be. This is a great solution for people who’ve invested a lot of time in developing their character and don’t want to start a new class from scratch because their current one is too weak.

    A huge, massive bow to you, ZOS.

    I feel like this is an example of missing the thread on the problems with this new system.

    Introducing balance? This annihilates it. We are going to see a massive influx of ridiculous builds in Cyro that'll frustrate players further, this js going to be worse than the Termorscale proc set era.

    Genius? No... The issue is it allows people to combine all the most powerful skill lines for a particular role, many of the base game classes have self heals baked into dps trees that'll allow you to keep all the sustainability and damage with no drawbacks, the same goes for tank and healer builds.

    Furthermore, everyone already had access to the "overpowered" stuff, much like people that say erroneous crap like "tank/dps/healing is easy" and then when they decide to try it they see it's an entire skillset and unique challenge in itself they change their tune. My point being that when the shoe is on the other foot and people try the "overpowered" class/abilities they see there's more skill involved than they realized.

    My builds feel pretty complete as is, this update only serves to make them all irrelevant in their current form and force me to not play how I want. I protest, keep pure classes relevant and introduce small penalties for subclassing to keep things competitive and fair.

    Edit: Asymmetrical balance is one of the things that makes a game interesting, symmetrically balanced games tend to get stale much more quickly and end up with fewer players as a result because it's uninteresting. The asymmetry of the classes was one of the things that made both pvp and pve have some really interesting interactions. With this new update people are simply going to find the most effective combination for a particular job and only go with that. Want max dps? Arc/nb/templar and there's not even a trade-off, just slot purifying light to get extra damage AND a heal, plus the radiant becomes an execute which arc had taken from them for good reason, so giving them access to another one defeats the purpose of having nerfed flail to begin with.

    Also I'm sure there's pvp players that are going to figure out insane combinations that'll just make pvp a mess
    Edited by knifeinthedark on May 6, 2025 1:45AM
  • knifeinthedark
    knifeinthedark
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    Rungar wrote: »
    actually the game is built on roles not classes. If it were classes certain classes could only be tanks and certain classes could only be healers and certain classes could only be damage. But it isnt. All classes can do all these things and be generally viable. Some are better than others but a viable for most content.

    you dont need a dragonknight to do a dungeon, you just need a tank. The tank role is completely classless as it relies largely on what weapons and armor you choose. Class is only relevant for a couple key skills which mostly have generic versions.

    all subclassing does is let you make your own custom class. I think they should have a huge competition and see what new classes are the most popular by the end and make those templates available from the beginning, and/or let players choose what three they want.

    the game already has abysmal balance issues due to the way the combat system works. Nothing is going to change that.

    and it should be called custom class not subclassing or multiclassing. Thats what it is.. making a custom class from available skill lines.


    I would also like to see your characters base aura change when you select different subclasses. Right now all base classes have a color aura and i imagine the color is pretty easy to change so i would like to see combined colors for subclasses so it appears different as a whole.

    so if a templar had arcanist abilities.. all class abilities would now have the modified color somewhere in between yellow and green. Same for all other combinations. All they would need is a small algorithm to set colors automatically based on the 3 line choices. If people want to complain about identity.. give them identity.

    The balance is not "abysmal" it's not perfect but it's not FUBAR either...

    And yes, the game IS built on classes, as in the role you choose changes in how it is executed depending on which class you play, now that everyone has access to everything on any character that just opens the door to finding the strongest combos and doing away with other skill lines focused on that role going extinct. Some tank skill trees and dps skill trees are simply going to die because they're not as good at the job as other ones.

    With the current state of the game you have to take a class as it is and accept its' shortcomings alongside its' strengths, with this system you can just pick the strongest of each type of a tree that you need (self healing, buffs/debuffs etc for tanks etc) and dispense with any other tree from other classes that try to serve the same functions and deserve some love. These other trees will just never see the light of day unless you're doing content that can be beaten with potions and light attacks, just like a single player ES game... There's already games for that so why do you want more of the same? This type of mentality reminds me of people that love sports games even though it's basically the same thing every year lol
    Edited by knifeinthedark on May 6, 2025 4:08AM
  • Rungar
    Rungar
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    well i guess old classes will fade and new classes will rise up. Best thing theyve done in a very long time imo.
  • Sordidfairytale
    Sordidfairytale
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    Class sets should require a skill from each class skill line be slotted in order to work, and then should provide a significant boost for their theme (Tank/DPS/Heal) in order to be competitive.

    Otherwise, make the "Class" sets into "Skill line" sets.

    Same with Class Mastery Scripts for Scribing. Make them Skill Line Mastery Scripts. This way a summoner could wear gear and use three scribed abilities to buff their summons in a meaningful and thematically consistent way, for instance.
    The Vegemite Knight

    "if the skeleton kills you, your dps is too low." ~STEVIL

    The Elder World of WarScrollCraft Online ~joaaocaampos
  • xylena_lazarow
    xylena_lazarow
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    The busted Assassin NB line on its own is going to overshadow anything subclassing does in PvP.
    PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP old PvP build system || bring Vengeance
  • LinearParadox
    LinearParadox
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    This is the official feedback thread for Subclassing. Please make sure to read the patch notes for info on Subclassing and combat changes made with Subclassing in mind. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:
    • Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
    • Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
    • How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
    • Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
    • Did you have fun experimenting with the system?

    1) Irrelevant, I can figure it out.
    2) The UI is no worse than when the decision was made to HIDE SKILL LINES FROM NEW PLAYERS.
    3) I have at least one, if not two, max level characters of each class; this is irrelevant to me.
    4) No, I'll be quitting the game when it goes live.
    5) No.

    I'm going to say what's already been said countless times, I'm sure, by other players. In the forums here, in game, and in YouTube comments under videos chronicling this disastrous endeavor from the start.

    This will cause irreparable damage to the game and it's core mechanics.
    1. It will destroy what little class identity is left (after hybridization of stats was taken WAY too far). Remember how there was a vision of having class-defining skills and a common visual theme? Something identifiable and exciting? Yeah just throw that out the window. Lets have everyone using a mishmash of skills from three different classes at once.
    2. The need to balance every class skill and passive around every possible combination of other class skills and passives will result in them needing to be balanced around the greatest outlier, and thus make them even weaker on their own, only further necessitating multi-classing and pushing players into a meta.
    3. "Pure" classes will be left in the dust, as there is nothing compensating them for not immediately trading out their weakest skill lines or least useful skill lines according to their build.
    4. PvP balance (what little of it remains anymore) will be finally and forever put in the ground. Game knowledge, class counters, strengths and weaknesses, and smart combat will be forever dead. Forget 10 years of learning how to play "your class" against "X class", neither will exist anymore. No counter-play or cleverness, just skill spamming and random chance.

    In fact, why even HAVE classes anymore? What even IS a class?
    I pick a Dragon Knight, then swap Earthen Heart and Draconic Power for say... Dark Magic and Storm Calling.
    Am I a DK? I'm more than half something else.
    My friend makes a Sorcerer, he swaps out Daedric Summoning for Ardent Flame. He now has as many DK skills as I do, and the exact same ones at that. Is he a DK? Are we both "Hybrids"? Then what's the point of him picking Sorc and me picking DK? Just starting skills and that's it?
    Does that sound like Class Identity and a cohesive visual story to you?

    The only "right way" to implement this, is not at all. But I know that's not an option. You've committed to it publicly, you've sunk development costs into making it happen, and it's too late to stop the train now.
    I'm under no delusion that my post here will mean anything, I'm merely posting it for posterity.

    These changes will get you a thumbs-up from casuals and newish players that will play with the changes briefly and then get bored, like a small kid with a new toy.
    Meanwhile you will alienate the core playerbase that MMOs need to stay alive.
    In short, a brief (if any) uptick in player-count and engagement as people log in to tinker, followed by a steep drop-off as they quickly realize what a mess the game has become, how nothing is the way they remember it, or it should be, and quit.

    If you'd like to mitigate this potential disaster, and there's any Devs or CMs actually still reading this, these are my suggestions to implement multi-classing in the least damaging way.

    1. ONE SKILL LINE MAX. PERIOD.
    2. Either "pure" classes need to get a buff for not multiclassing, or off-class skills need some penalty like a resource cost increase, a cooldown, etc. Perhaps both, or some combination.
    Edited by LinearParadox on May 6, 2025 8:09PM
    twitch.tv/linearparadox
    Benthar the Unkillable - lvl 50 StamDK - AD
    High Confessor Celosia - lvl 50 MagDK, AD
    Aeolyndra Sunstrider - lvl 50 Magplar Support God, AD
    Maldreth Angala - lvl 50 Magicka PetSorc, AD
    Veldrosa Wyldwind - lvl 50 StamSorc, AD
    M. Night Shatupon - lvl 50 MagBlade, AD
    Vestonia Ironhardt - lvl 50 Warden GuardTank, AD
    Bone Daddy - lvl 50 TankCro, AD
    Abra Kedaver - lvl 50 MagCro, AD
    And many more...
    CP 1700+
  • sans-culottes
    sans-culottes
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    By now, the debates are well-rehearsed. Subclassing is either the great liberation from ESO’s rigid class silos or the final blow to its already threadbare identity system. Some cheer the possibilities. Others see only entropy.

    But perhaps the more interesting question isn’t whether subclassing is good or bad. It’s whether subclassing is even the real issue.

    Because what if subclassing feels like the cause but is really just the symptom?

    What if this Frankenstein patchwork of skill lines and re-skinned passives is less an act of bold experimentation and more a desperate attempt to cover structural rot? What if the real problem is that ESO’s class system, long underdeveloped and out of step with its own lore, has finally collapsed under its own contradictions? What if subclassing is just the bandage?

    You can see it in Necromancer, a class so dysfunctional in core design that subclassing only highlights its incoherence. Or in the recurring cycle of homogenization that began with hybridization and now intensifies as class distinctions are flattened even further. This isn’t creative freedom. It is design surrender.

    Subclassing isn’t the monster. It is the panic response to a decade of deferred decisions, neglected systems, and ill-fitting mechanics. The question is no longer whether subclassing fits the game. The question is: does anything?

    So was subclassing the monster, or was it just what ZOS stitched together to distract from what’s really on the slab?

    Come up to the lab and see what’s on the slab.
  • StarOfElyon
    StarOfElyon
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    ADarklore wrote: »
    I see a lot of players talking about how skills/passives should be nerfed 'while subclassing'... which I think is the absolute WRONG approach. Because why would anyone even subclass, if they are going to lose power? It would absolutely go against the 'finally play as you want' mantra for this system.

    However, I DO think they could make adjustments for only the passives so that they are 15-20% less effective while subclassing. I also think GLS should be changed- making it more Necromancer skill specific or at least toning down its effectiveness. However, I DO NOT think 'skills' should be nerfed when subclassing. Or, perhaps they could go the opposite, and BUFF class abilities 'when not subclassing.'

    First of all, the took away a necro burst skill to give them a buff to damage over time while not giving the class any source of sticky damage over time. Why give a class a buff to something it doesn't have??? And now it's become a buff for NON-NECROMANCERS.
  • PrinceShroob
    PrinceShroob
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    Now that the PTS has swapped to EU, I was able to speak to Bahtra on my single EU character... and I was able to subclass without doing any quest? Perhaps I misunderstood, but then what's the point of the account upgrade for the class skill lines that specifically say that collecting them allows the player to use that skill line in subclassing?
  • sans-culottes
    sans-culottes
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    ADarklore wrote: »
    I see a lot of players talking about how skills/passives should be nerfed 'while subclassing'... which I think is the absolute WRONG approach. Because why would anyone even subclass, if they are going to lose power? It would absolutely go against the 'finally play as you want' mantra for this system.

    However, I DO think they could make adjustments for only the passives so that they are 15-20% less effective while subclassing. I also think GLS should be changed- making it more Necromancer skill specific or at least toning down its effectiveness. However, I DO NOT think 'skills' should be nerfed when subclassing. Or, perhaps they could go the opposite, and BUFF class abilities 'when not subclassing.'

    First of all, the took away a necro burst skill to give them a buff to damage over time while not giving the class any source of sticky damage over time. Why give a class a buff to something it doesn't have??? And now it's become a buff for NON-NECROMANCERS.

    It really was—and still is—a baffling choice. They removed the superior burst option from Necromancer, added a DoT buff, but didn’t give Necro any actual sticky DoTs to make use of it. Now it functions primarily as a buff for other classes. If this is subclassing’s “creative freedom,” then it sure seems to come at Necro’s expense.
    Edited by sans-culottes on May 7, 2025 1:04PM
  • PrinceShroob
    PrinceShroob
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    Now that the PTS has swapped to EU, I was able to speak to Bahtra on my single EU character... and I was able to subclass without doing any quest? Perhaps I misunderstood, but then what's the point of the account upgrade for the class skill lines that specifically say that collecting them allows the player to use that skill line in subclassing?

    I'd like to elaborate on this point. Upon rereading the patch notes, I believe I misunderstood how you acquired skill lines if you didn't have characters of those classes. Yet somehow, it ended up being worse than I imagined.

    The way subclassing works is that there's a "subclassing limit" of 3 skill lines. If you don't have the account-wide upgrade for hitting 50 in that skill line, you're essentially imprisoned in whatever skill lines you choose to subclass into until you've finished leveling them. So if I only have a Warden, as I do on EU, and I pick Herald of the Tome, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame as my subclassing skill lines, then I'm stuck with those for a while. I can go back to my natural Warden skill lines, but I have to pay to respec to do so.

    This seems to be a bad combination of punishing on newer players while not impacting people who are pursuing meta builds at all. If I want to dabble in a skill line, I'm stuck with it, even if I quickly decide it's not for me. Conversely, if I know what I want already, this limitation essentially doesn't affect me at all since I'll just read a guide or listen to what my raid lead tells me.

    It also makes little sense in-universe. I walk up to some lady and she's like "hey kid, wanna be a Templarcanistblade?" and suddenly I know how to shoot a giant laser beam from a book and create a spear of holy light. Learning new skills in a video game is always abstracted, but navigating Bahtra's unintuitive menu doesn't really abstract learning Akaviri techniques or... praying really hard very well (particularly for Arcanist, since the in-world lore is that you found one of Mora's Black Books, which you obviously didn't). It doesn't even make sense to acquire skill lines from your other characters, as generally, one character's actions don't affect your other character's world state, and your characters never meet.

    This system also has the oddity of essentially letting people acquire the best parts of Arcanist, Necromancer, and Warden skill line by skill line without actually buying those classes.

    ***

    As an aside, more and more I feel like that if this version of subclassing must go live, it'd be healthier with Vengeance-style subclassing-specific versions of skill lines.

    There are just so, so many better ways of introducing this system and having it be healthier than the game balance than essentially saying "you like pizza and you like hamburgers. So have our new pizzaburger. Also we made pizzas and hamburgers worse to make you eat it."
    Edited by PrinceShroob on May 8, 2025 5:07AM
  • knifeinthedark
    knifeinthedark
    ✭✭✭
    NoSoup wrote: »
    Rkindaleft wrote: »
    A lot of people feared Subclassing would be like Hybridization - a system which is designed to give more flexibility, but in reality coerced people into running a specific setup unless they actively chose to nerf themselves.

    Pure classes should not be underpowered compared to hybrids. If anything, the pure classes should have more raw power than hybrid classes.

    The best way to do something like that would be to nerf all tooltips by some percentage if a character takes up a subclass. In that way, the player needs to choose between keeping the raw power of a single class, or reducing their power in exchange for more versatility.

    As it is, the players can choose 'nothing changes' versus 'more power and more versatility,' which is not a reasonable choice. Even when subclassing in games like D&D, adding more subclasses is a way to give characters more options, but you do so at the expense of accessing the most powerful features of your original class.

    Just want to echo that I'm in agreement that there should be a baseline tooltip nerf for either Subclass skills (or rather Subclass skill lines) that aren't your actual class or just overall if you choose to take up Subclassing.

    I posted this in the Combat thread but Eight Puppies got 171k on Day 1 of PTS after a couple hours of parsing without using the bugged version of Solar Barrage. Fatecarver did nearly 90k DPS by itself. Some people may like *insert huge number* but to me this is an unhealthy level of power creep.

    Just for an example, if something like Merciless Resolve gives 300 W/SD at full stacks on a Blade then I don't think the bonus should be nearly as high if you subclassed that skill line on anything else. Same with something like the Cro DoT passive.
    It's still a cool change for the solo players and people who RP but if you play at a level where this stuff actually matters this is just feels dumb.

    zfn7jsjkf6sw.jpeg

    Was this subclassing or broken sets that lead to this? 96% Crit, 8k wp/d and 125% crit damage modifier seems to be the reason you're hitting those numbers more so than the additional skills.

    To answer your question: No. You can have those base stats but have garbage skills that don't do enough damage and aren't sustainable enough to hit those numbers. The availability of subclassing skills is a huge reason for these numbers.

    Just try a parse on a nb with twisting path and then switch it for debilitate and you'll see a sizeable difference.
  • knifeinthedark
    knifeinthedark
    ✭✭✭
    By now, the debates are well-rehearsed. Subclassing is either the great liberation from ESO’s rigid class silos or the final blow to its already threadbare identity system. Some cheer the possibilities. Others see only entropy.

    But perhaps the more interesting question isn’t whether subclassing is good or bad. It’s whether subclassing is even the real issue.

    Because what if subclassing feels like the cause but is really just the symptom?

    What if this Frankenstein patchwork of skill lines and re-skinned passives is less an act of bold experimentation and more a desperate attempt to cover structural rot? What if the real problem is that ESO’s class system, long underdeveloped and out of step with its own lore, has finally collapsed under its own contradictions? What if subclassing is just the bandage?

    You can see it in Necromancer, a class so dysfunctional in core design that subclassing only highlights its incoherence. Or in the recurring cycle of homogenization that began with hybridization and now intensifies as class distinctions are flattened even further. This isn’t creative freedom. It is design surrender.

    Subclassing isn’t the monster. It is the panic response to a decade of deferred decisions, neglected systems, and ill-fitting mechanics. The question is no longer whether subclassing fits the game. The question is: does anything?

    So was subclassing the monster, or was it just what ZOS stitched together to distract from what’s really on the slab?

    Come up to the lab and see what’s on the slab.

    The classes themselves are most certainly not "underdeveloped" lol. There's lots of depth there that allows most classes to fulfill any role with competency.

    And it being out of step with the lore? Oh give me a break they retcon stuff all the time it's almost a meme at this point.

    The problem isn't the class system itself, the problem is ZoS is refusing to actually get creative and make a new class that would feel like it fits. We have assassins/blood mages, we have deadric sorcery, we have druid/nature magic and even conjuration and draconic magic etc etc. There's plenty to point at in the classrs themselves that fit snugly in TES lore as is that also provides us with interesting and diverse skills/ways to execute different roles. Again, ZoS simply refuses to ACTUALLY be brave and create a new class or even a new race (like the fox people or even an akaviri themed expansion). Hell they could make a mysticism based mage (thanks for killing that in Skyrim btw) or alteration, or some combination with illusion skills as a means to stun/cc enemies as a support for the group. How about an artificer class that uses dwarven contructs? The possibilities are nearly endless in Elder Scrolls

    There's possibilities, they're just throwing the long term players under the bus and trying to start over. It's both reckless and sloppy and even kind of inconsiderate to their long term pvp and pve players.
    Edited by knifeinthedark on May 8, 2025 1:48AM
  • ZhuJiuyin
    ZhuJiuyin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bug Feedback
    When using respec scrolls to reselect subclassed skill lines, if you change 3 skill lines at once, the last selected skill line will appear in the interface (meaning you will see 4 skill lines)

    d7fzukn0dnco.png
    x8zbgc4ht5qa.png


    This is a serious problem because it could allow someone to exploit this bug and use all four skill lines at the same time.


    renew:
    After testing, it may not be possible to use 4 skill lines, because the extra skill lines seem to be locked.
    nhpiklq1qnaa.png
    Edited by ZhuJiuyin on May 8, 2025 4:55AM
    "是燭九陰,是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.
  • sans-culottes
    sans-culottes
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    By now, the debates are well-rehearsed. Subclassing is either the great liberation from ESO’s rigid class silos or the final blow to its already threadbare identity system. Some cheer the possibilities. Others see only entropy.

    But perhaps the more interesting question isn’t whether subclassing is good or bad. It’s whether subclassing is even the real issue.

    Because what if subclassing feels like the cause but is really just the symptom?

    What if this Frankenstein patchwork of skill lines and re-skinned passives is less an act of bold experimentation and more a desperate attempt to cover structural rot? What if the real problem is that ESO’s class system, long underdeveloped and out of step with its own lore, has finally collapsed under its own contradictions? What if subclassing is just the bandage?

    You can see it in Necromancer, a class so dysfunctional in core design that subclassing only highlights its incoherence. Or in the recurring cycle of homogenization that began with hybridization and now intensifies as class distinctions are flattened even further. This isn’t creative freedom. It is design surrender.

    Subclassing isn’t the monster. It is the panic response to a decade of deferred decisions, neglected systems, and ill-fitting mechanics. The question is no longer whether subclassing fits the game. The question is: does anything?

    So was subclassing the monster, or was it just what ZOS stitched together to distract from what’s really on the slab?

    Come up to the lab and see what’s on the slab.

    The classes themselves are most certainly not "underdeveloped" lol. There's lots of depth there that allows most classes to fulfill any role with competency.

    And it being out of step with the lore? Oh give me a break they retcon stuff all the time it's almost a meme at this point.

    The problem isn't the class system itself, the problem is ZoS is refusing to actually get creative and make a new class that would feel like it fits. We have assassins/blood mages, we have deadric sorcery, we have druid/nature magic and even conjuration and draconic magic etc etc. There's plenty to point at in the classrs themselves that fit snugly in TES lore as is that also provides us with interesting and diverse skills/ways to execute different roles. Again, ZoS simply refuses to ACTUALLY be brave and create a new class or even a new race (like the fox people or even an akaviri themed expansion). Hell they could make a mysticism based mage (thanks for killing that in Skyrim btw) or alteration, or some combination with illusion skills as a means to stun/cc enemies as a support for the group. How about an artificer class that uses dwarven contructs? The possibilities are nearly endless in Elder Scrolls

    There's possibilities, they're just throwing the long term players under the bus and trying to start over. It's both reckless and sloppy and even kind of inconsiderate to their long term pvp and pve players.

    You may want to reread your own comment, because despite the initial “lol,” you’ve basically made my case for me.

    You argue that ZOS refuses to be “brave” and actually create a new class. But why is that? Why, after a decade, have we seen only two new classes? Why is subclassing now being trotted out as a solution?

    It is because the existing class system is brittle. Necromancer in particular demonstrates this perfectly. It is a class that was controversial on lore grounds, saddled with overengineered mechanics like corpse micromanagement, and has never found a coherent niche in either PvE or PvP. Subclassing didn’t liberate it. It exposed how unworkable its core design really is.

    The issue is not a lack of imagination. It is that the class system ZOS built was never robust enough to evolve. You cannot meaningfully iterate on something that was half-formed to begin with.

    And yes, subclassing may offer fun toys for some, but let’s not pretend it is a solution. It is a bypass. A workaround. A tacit admission that they cannot or will not properly support the class framework they created. The “endless possibilities” you mention are theoretical. What we are seeing now is panic-polish, not vision.

    So, again, subclassing is not the monster. It is the slab.
  • Rungar
    Rungar
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    maybe they just realize that elder scrolls is a make your own class type game and this brings it closer to that idea. It has minimal development cost but for alot of people its a breath of fresh air in a very stale room.

    really every combination of lines will generate a new class... whatever you were before you will have lost something and gained something else and despite all the gloom and doom and threats to quit i think most players will come to love its freedom and flexibility as the classes of old fade away and new classes take their place.

    Sure it might be a little rocky.. everything zos does is rocky.. lol.
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I got my marshmallows ready for the dumpster fire and the impending uproar once the on the fence general populous realizes how awful this idea is executed.
    I drink and I stream things.
  • knifeinthedark
    knifeinthedark
    ✭✭✭
    By now, the debates are well-rehearsed. Subclassing is either the great liberation from ESO’s rigid class silos or the final blow to its already threadbare identity system. Some cheer the possibilities. Others see only entropy.

    But perhaps the more interesting question isn’t whether subclassing is good or bad. It’s whether subclassing is even the real issue.

    Because what if subclassing feels like the cause but is really just the symptom?

    What if this Frankenstein patchwork of skill lines and re-skinned passives is less an act of bold experimentation and more a desperate attempt to cover structural rot? What if the real problem is that ESO’s class system, long underdeveloped and out of step with its own lore, has finally collapsed under its own contradictions? What if subclassing is just the bandage?

    You can see it in Necromancer, a class so dysfunctional in core design that subclassing only highlights its incoherence. Or in the recurring cycle of homogenization that began with hybridization and now intensifies as class distinctions are flattened even further. This isn’t creative freedom. It is design surrender.

    Subclassing isn’t the monster. It is the panic response to a decade of deferred decisions, neglected systems, and ill-fitting mechanics. The question is no longer whether subclassing fits the game. The question is: does anything?

    So was subclassing the monster, or was it just what ZOS stitched together to distract from what’s really on the slab?

    Come up to the lab and see what’s on the slab.

    The classes themselves are most certainly not "underdeveloped" lol. There's lots of depth there that allows most classes to fulfill any role with competency.

    And it being out of step with the lore? Oh give me a break they retcon stuff all the time it's almost a meme at this point.

    The problem isn't the class system itself, the problem is ZoS is refusing to actually get creative and make a new class that would feel like it fits. We have assassins/blood mages, we have deadric sorcery, we have druid/nature magic and even conjuration and draconic magic etc etc. There's plenty to point at in the classrs themselves that fit snugly in TES lore as is that also provides us with interesting and diverse skills/ways to execute different roles. Again, ZoS simply refuses to ACTUALLY be brave and create a new class or even a new race (like the fox people or even an akaviri themed expansion). Hell they could make a mysticism based mage (thanks for killing that in Skyrim btw) or alteration, or some combination with illusion skills as a means to stun/cc enemies as a support for the group. How about an artificer class that uses dwarven contructs? The possibilities are nearly endless in Elder Scrolls

    There's possibilities, they're just throwing the long term players under the bus and trying to start over. It's both reckless and sloppy and even kind of inconsiderate to their long term pvp and pve players.

    You may want to reread your own comment, because despite the initial “lol,” you’ve basically made my case for me.

    You argue that ZOS refuses to be “brave” and actually create a new class. But why is that? Why, after a decade, have we seen only two new classes? Why is subclassing now being trotted out as a solution?

    It is because the existing class system is brittle. Necromancer in particular demonstrates this perfectly. It is a class that was controversial on lore grounds, saddled with overengineered mechanics like corpse micromanagement, and has never found a coherent niche in either PvE or PvP. Subclassing didn’t liberate it. It exposed how unworkable its core design really is.

    The issue is not a lack of imagination. It is that the class system ZOS built was never robust enough to evolve. You cannot meaningfully iterate on something that was half-formed to begin with.

    And yes, subclassing may offer fun toys for some, but let’s not pretend it is a solution. It is a bypass. A workaround. A tacit admission that they cannot or will not properly support the class framework they created. The “endless possibilities” you mention are theoretical. What we are seeing now is panic-polish, not vision.

    So, again, subclassing is not the monster. It is the slab.

    No, I didn't make your point. My point was the current classes are unique enough from one another in how each executes its' role uniquely within a group whether that be pvp or pve. A nightblade most certainly does not tank like an arcanist and a dk does not dps like a templar, they are very very different while also possessing pretty complete kits of class skills that allow them all sorts of options from group and self heals to unique dps abilities and enemy debuffs, so no I don't need to reread my comment, you need to develop better understanding of the game itself.

    If you don't understand anything I've said it's a skill issue. The classes are not "brittle" as you put it snd you don't even really make a case as to why you think that. You just say "they're brittle" and continue on once again not understanding a whole class (necro). Micro? Yeah, uh, bound armaments, merciless resolve, power of the light all are micromanaged parts of a dps rotation... What's wrong with micromanaging certain skills exactly? Especially when they fit with the theme of a particular class. Necromancy was a hot topic in Oblivion in terms of ethics and was a type of magic in itself the player basically largely didn't have access to aside from corpse reanimation.

    And as far as Necro not finding a niche, did you even read my comment? Again, skill issue. I'll repeat it a third time in case you willfully ignored it: ALL classes are capable of fulfilling any role with the right skill and armor setup, each can have their own unique niche. Nightblades are excellent single target and execute, Necros are DoT focused as far as dps goes, as well as using corpses to do damage to enemies much like... a necromancer would do, how very... niche of them. And the tanking is more debuff heavy than other classes. Dks are a mix of both in dps, dominantly DoT based but with a strong single target ability in the whip.

    The actual problem is with things like hybridization and now this coming change ZoS keeps diluting things.

    Here's some more ideas better than subclassing: Sea Elf race. Conjuration based class that uses summoned weapons and armors as skills which could open the door to all new gear sets focused around summoning because really we have one relevant one (corpse buster) and a now mostly useless one in necropotence.

    I've already talked about Illusion, Alteration and Mysticism, those would be awesome throwbacks they could really tinker around with to create a whole new class.

    As far as classes being a problem... Skyrim introduced archetypes and even at that in Oblivion or Morrowind plenty of people saw no problem with using archetypes themselves like battlemages, warriors or pure mages so I don't see why taking the different skillsets present in TES and making theme specific classes out of them is such a "monster" to begin with.

    Perhaps one of the real issues is with the community being unable to feel contentment, we have most of the themed skillsets from TES all represented by the current classes and skills/skillsets outside of those classes that represent things like destruction magic, alchemy and the guilds. Maybe people shold've been glad for what we've had and look to expansive content that centers itself around exploring the universe itself instead of focusing purely on having new toys to play with. I'm happy having multiple tanks and dps characters that all play differently from each other, what keeps me coming back is the uniqueness of the group content mechanics, trials and dungeons are all so different and provide different challenges and experiences based in fundamental and advanced skills of the players themselves. A new class and race would help, but also learning to accept classes and how MMOs hit this sort of wall in general would also be good.

    Every MMO eventually runs out of in universe classes/skills to explore. That's ok, there's other ways to keep the game going.
    Edited by knifeinthedark on May 9, 2025 2:25AM
  • knifeinthedark
    knifeinthedark
    ✭✭✭
    By now, the debates are well-rehearsed. Subclassing is either the great liberation from ESO’s rigid class silos or the final blow to its already threadbare identity system. Some cheer the possibilities. Others see only entropy.

    But perhaps the more interesting question isn’t whether subclassing is good or bad. It’s whether subclassing is even the real issue.

    Because what if subclassing feels like the cause but is really just the symptom?

    What if this Frankenstein patchwork of skill lines and re-skinned passives is less an act of bold experimentation and more a desperate attempt to cover structural rot? What if the real problem is that ESO’s class system, long underdeveloped and out of step with its own lore, has finally collapsed under its own contradictions? What if subclassing is just the bandage?

    You can see it in Necromancer, a class so dysfunctional in core design that subclassing only highlights its incoherence. Or in the recurring cycle of homogenization that began with hybridization and now intensifies as class distinctions are flattened even further. This isn’t creative freedom. It is design surrender.

    Subclassing isn’t the monster. It is the panic response to a decade of deferred decisions, neglected systems, and ill-fitting mechanics. The question is no longer whether subclassing fits the game. The question is: does anything?

    So was subclassing the monster, or was it just what ZOS stitched together to distract from what’s really on the slab?

    Come up to the lab and see what’s on the slab.

    The classes themselves are most certainly not "underdeveloped" lol. There's lots of depth there that allows most classes to fulfill any role with competency.

    And it being out of step with the lore? Oh give me a break they retcon stuff all the time it's almost a meme at this point.

    The problem isn't the class system itself, the problem is ZoS is refusing to actually get creative and make a new class that would feel like it fits. We have assassins/blood mages, we have deadric sorcery, we have druid/nature magic and even conjuration and draconic magic etc etc. There's plenty to point at in the classrs themselves that fit snugly in TES lore as is that also provides us with interesting and diverse skills/ways to execute different roles. Again, ZoS simply refuses to ACTUALLY be brave and create a new class or even a new race (like the fox people or even an akaviri themed expansion). Hell they could make a mysticism based mage (thanks for killing that in Skyrim btw) or alteration, or some combination with illusion skills as a means to stun/cc enemies as a support for the group. How about an artificer class that uses dwarven contructs? The possibilities are nearly endless in Elder Scrolls

    There's possibilities, they're just throwing the long term players under the bus and trying to start over. It's both reckless and sloppy and even kind of inconsiderate to their long term pvp and pve players.

    You may want to reread your own comment, because despite the initial “lol,” you’ve basically made my case for me.

    You argue that ZOS refuses to be “brave” and actually create a new class. But why is that? Why, after a decade, have we seen only two new classes? Why is subclassing now being trotted out as a solution?

    It is because the existing class system is brittle. Necromancer in particular demonstrates this perfectly. It is a class that was controversial on lore grounds, saddled with overengineered mechanics like corpse micromanagement, and has never found a coherent niche in either PvE or PvP. Subclassing didn’t liberate it. It exposed how unworkable its core design really is.

    The issue is not a lack of imagination. It is that the class system ZOS built was never robust enough to evolve. You cannot meaningfully iterate on something that was half-formed to begin with.

    And yes, subclassing may offer fun toys for some, but let’s not pretend it is a solution. It is a bypass. A workaround. A tacit admission that they cannot or will not properly support the class framework they created. The “endless possibilities” you mention are theoretical. What we are seeing now is panic-polish, not vision.

    So, again, subclassing is not the monster. It is the slab.

    Also one of the base classes in Oblivion is literally a nightblade. Illusion magic and sneak (shafowy disguise anyone?) to support an assassin type class...
  • knifeinthedark
    knifeinthedark
    ✭✭✭
    It is because the existing class system is brittle. Necromancer in particular demonstrates this perfectly. It is a class that was controversial on lore grounds, saddled with overengineered mechanics like corpse micromanagement, and has never found a coherent niche in either PvE or PvP. Subclassing didn’t liberate it. It exposed how unworkable its core design really is.

    Remember when people wanted necros in their groups so badly for two years (which the introduction of arcanist was the primary change for now, people not caring about necros as much that is) because they had a good burst ability that applied major defile in blastbones?
    Edited by knifeinthedark on May 9, 2025 6:46AM
  • sans-culottes
    sans-culottes
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    By now, the debates are well-rehearsed. Subclassing is either the great liberation from ESO’s rigid class silos or the final blow to its already threadbare identity system. Some cheer the possibilities. Others see only entropy.

    But perhaps the more interesting question isn’t whether subclassing is good or bad. It’s whether subclassing is even the real issue.

    Because what if subclassing feels like the cause but is really just the symptom?

    What if this Frankenstein patchwork of skill lines and re-skinned passives is less an act of bold experimentation and more a desperate attempt to cover structural rot? What if the real problem is that ESO’s class system, long underdeveloped and out of step with its own lore, has finally collapsed under its own contradictions? What if subclassing is just the bandage?

    You can see it in Necromancer, a class so dysfunctional in core design that subclassing only highlights its incoherence. Or in the recurring cycle of homogenization that began with hybridization and now intensifies as class distinctions are flattened even further. This isn’t creative freedom. It is design surrender.

    Subclassing isn’t the monster. It is the panic response to a decade of deferred decisions, neglected systems, and ill-fitting mechanics. The question is no longer whether subclassing fits the game. The question is: does anything?

    So was subclassing the monster, or was it just what ZOS stitched together to distract from what’s really on the slab?

    Come up to the lab and see what’s on the slab.

    The classes themselves are most certainly not "underdeveloped" lol. There's lots of depth there that allows most classes to fulfill any role with competency.

    And it being out of step with the lore? Oh give me a break they retcon stuff all the time it's almost a meme at this point.

    The problem isn't the class system itself, the problem is ZoS is refusing to actually get creative and make a new class that would feel like it fits. We have assassins/blood mages, we have deadric sorcery, we have druid/nature magic and even conjuration and draconic magic etc etc. There's plenty to point at in the classrs themselves that fit snugly in TES lore as is that also provides us with interesting and diverse skills/ways to execute different roles. Again, ZoS simply refuses to ACTUALLY be brave and create a new class or even a new race (like the fox people or even an akaviri themed expansion). Hell they could make a mysticism based mage (thanks for killing that in Skyrim btw) or alteration, or some combination with illusion skills as a means to stun/cc enemies as a support for the group. How about an artificer class that uses dwarven contructs? The possibilities are nearly endless in Elder Scrolls

    There's possibilities, they're just throwing the long term players under the bus and trying to start over. It's both reckless and sloppy and even kind of inconsiderate to their long term pvp and pve players.

    You may want to reread your own comment, because despite the initial “lol,” you’ve basically made my case for me.

    You argue that ZOS refuses to be “brave” and actually create a new class. But why is that? Why, after a decade, have we seen only two new classes? Why is subclassing now being trotted out as a solution?

    It is because the existing class system is brittle. Necromancer in particular demonstrates this perfectly. It is a class that was controversial on lore grounds, saddled with overengineered mechanics like corpse micromanagement, and has never found a coherent niche in either PvE or PvP. Subclassing didn’t liberate it. It exposed how unworkable its core design really is.

    The issue is not a lack of imagination. It is that the class system ZOS built was never robust enough to evolve. You cannot meaningfully iterate on something that was half-formed to begin with.

    And yes, subclassing may offer fun toys for some, but let’s not pretend it is a solution. It is a bypass. A workaround. A tacit admission that they cannot or will not properly support the class framework they created. The “endless possibilities” you mention are theoretical. What we are seeing now is panic-polish, not vision.

    So, again, subclassing is not the monster. It is the slab.

    No, I didn't make your point. My point was the current classes are unique enough from one another in how each executes its' role uniquely within a group whether that be pvp or pve. A nightblade most certainly does not tank like an arcanist and a dk does not dps like a templar, they are very very different while also possessing pretty complete kits of class skills that allow them all sorts of options from group and self heals to unique dps abilities and enemy debuffs, so no I don't need to reread my comment, you need to develop better understanding of the game itself.

    If you don't understand anything I've said it's a skill issue. The classes are not "brittle" as you put it snd you don't even really make a case as to why you think that. You just say "they're brittle" and continue on once again not understanding a whole class (necro). Micro? Yeah, uh, bound armaments, merciless resolve, power of the light all are micromanaged parts of a dps rotation... What's wrong with micromanaging certain skills exactly? Especially when they fit with the theme of a particular class. Necromancy was a hot topic in Oblivion in terms of ethics and was a type of magic in itself the player basically largely didn't have access to aside from corpse reanimation.

    And as far as Necro not finding a niche, did you even read my comment? Again, skill issue. I'll repeat it a third time in case you willfully ignored it: ALL classes are capable of fulfilling any role with the right skill and armor setup, each can have their own unique niche. Nightblades are excellent single target and execute, Necros are DoT focused as far as dps goes, as well as using corpses to do damage to enemies much like... a necromancer would do, how very... niche of them. And the tanking is more debuff heavy than other classes. Dks are a mix of both in dps, dominantly DoT based but with a strong single target ability in the whip.

    The actual problem is with things like hybridization and now this coming change ZoS keeps diluting things.

    Here's some more ideas better than subclassing: Sea Elf race. Conjuration based class that uses summoned weapons and armors as skills which could open the door to all new gear sets focused around summoning because really we have one relevant one (corpse buster) and a now mostly useless one in necropotence.

    I've already talked about Illusion, Alteration and Mysticism, those would be awesome throwbacks they could really tinker around with to create a whole new class.

    As far as classes being a problem... Skyrim introduced archetypes and even at that in Oblivion or Morrowind plenty of people saw no problem with using archetypes themselves like battlemages, warriors or pure mages so I don't see why taking the different skillsets present in TES and making theme specific classes out of them is such a "monster" to begin with.

    Perhaps one of the real issues is with the community being unable to feel contentment, we have most of the themed skillsets from TES all represented by the current classes and skills/skillsets outside of those classes that represent things like destruction magic, alchemy and the guilds. Maybe people shold've been glad for what we've had and look to expansive content that centers itself around exploring the universe itself instead of focusing purely on having new toys to play with. I'm happy having multiple tanks and dps characters that all play differently from each other, what keeps me coming back is the uniqueness of the group content mechanics, trials and dungeons are all so different and provide different challenges and experiences based in fundamental and advanced skills of the players themselves. A new class and race would help, but also learning to accept classes and how MMOs hit this sort of wall in general would also be good.

    Every MMO eventually runs out of in universe classes/skills to explore. That's ok, there's other ways to keep the game going.

    You’ve now written multiple posts trying to reframe subclassing as a symptom of player entitlement, arguing that people “should’ve been glad” with what we had and that MMOs naturally “hit a wall.” But each time, your own examples betray the real issue.

    You invoke Necromancer as once desirable because of Blastbones applying Major Defile. But that proves my point. The class was carried by a single gimmick, not a robust or coherent design. Once a cleaner, more synergistic option like Arcanist arrived, the illusion collapsed.

    You suggest that subclassing opens “massive build variety,” yet concede it’s ultimately a workaround for ZOS’s refusal to invest in bold new systems like a full class or race. You argue players should accept that all MMOs “run out of skills,” yet your solution is to inject more skills via subclassing.

    These contradictions aren’t accidental. They stem from a defensive position that tries to rationalize structural decay as player impatience. But what players are responding to isn’t lack of novelty. It’s the sense that ZOS is no longer developing forward, only sideways. Subclassing isn’t evolution. It’s evasion. And deep down, I think you know that.
    Edited by sans-culottes on May 9, 2025 11:04AM
  • necro_the_crafter
    necro_the_crafter
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    You’ve now written multiple posts trying to reframe subclassing as a symptom of player entitlement, arguing that people “should’ve been glad” with what we had and that MMOs naturally “hit a wall.” But each time, your own examples betray the real issue.

    You invoke Necromancer as once desirable because of Blastbones applying Major Defile. But that proves my point. The class was carried by a single gimmick, not a robust or coherent design. Once a cleaner, more synergistic option like Arcanist arrived, the illusion collapsed.

    You suggest that subclassing opens “massive build variety,” yet concede it’s ultimately a workaround for ZOS’s refusal to invest in bold new systems like a full class or race. You argue players should accept that all MMOs “run out of skills,” yet your solution is to inject more skills via subclassing.

    These contradictions aren’t accidental. They stem from a defensive position that tries to rationalize structural decay as player impatience. But what players are responding to isn’t lack of novelty. It’s the sense that ZOS is no longer developing forward, only sideways. Subclassing isn’t evolution. It’s evasion. And deep down, I think you know that.

    Necros was relaying too much on the game mechanichs that got butchered. Magcros was really strong burst class with graverobber dealing massive damage but being a huge 20 sec CD, but then zos deleted harmony and nerfed graverobber in the same patch, stamcros was insanely tanky with 30% major protection from deaden pain, combined with 20% damage reduction from ghost wich both got nerfed, in PvE necros was desirable beacuase this was only class to provide major vuln, that was 30% increased damage taken, wich also got nerf with major/minor effects rework.

    Necros were realesed in a whole different game from now, and while game was changing, necros were silently decaying in a corner, completly unattended, loosing their power patch after patch.
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