seriously, please shut down this post (SOLVED)

Daoin · April 25

im pretty choked for players that are going to really enjoy this update, but had i known about this route myself alot lot earlier my path through time spent playing eso would have been a very much different one which i'm really going to regret now, the rest of the stuff i have always managed to get along with things. i just hope i can make something enjoyable out of this mess now, i have even been telling myself maybe one of my toons could make it onto the cover of a cereal box after this thing goes live

Pixiepumpkin · April 25

icapital wrote: »

You absolutely can play how you want, when you want, where you want, at your own discretion. No one is forcing you to follow the META. Start your own groups if you have an issue with meta based gameplay.

I disagree. My builds and my wifes builds and countless others I have interacted with all run some form of a build that is based on doing high damage "meta". This is due to the constant occurance of bullying in game by other players telling us how bad our DPS is, or even being kicked out of a group, a simple dungeon run.
This is in part due to the 4 person party concept, which in my opinion is terrible design becasue its extremely easy to see who is DPSing and who is not based on how much you are doing. This leads to finger pointing.

There is the concept of "play it yoru way" and the reality, which are two completely different things, unless all the player does is play solo content. But the minute you intend to run group content for cool rewards, you are forced to playing a certain way. This is easily understood by how much one bar builds get grief/kept out of vet trials vs two bar builds.

icapital wrote: »

Your argument consists of "I don't like it, so it's objectively bad" when your opinion is simply subjective.

How can that possibly be true when I have refuted everythiung you have said? This has nothing to do with what I like or dislike and everything to do with the reality of how things play out in game.

icapital wrote: »

There is absolutely player agency. Whether or not you choose to follow trends, such as the META, is completely up to you, the player, ergo player agency.

No, there is not and I already gave the reason why. Player agency on paper, no player agency in reality the second you intend to do group content that offers cool rewards (vet trials/dungeons). In fact, I think I have run one vet trial and generally stay away from non base game vet dungeons because I have to run a one bar build.

icapital wrote: »

I have nothing else to say concerning the matter because all we're doing is going in circles. I welcome this positive change to the game.

Because you refuse to listen to the other side of the argument.
And I, along with countless others do not welcome the negative change to the game with the removal of class identity. It makes ESO worse, not better.

RealLoveBVB · April 25

licenturion wrote: »

Sorry but if people already bail out before such a big system is out without even trying it in final form (or with a few early hotfixes), they are not really fans of the game at all.

It’s like walking out of a restaurant because you saw the ingredients being prepped and assumed you wouldn’t like the dish — without even tasting the final meal. You don’t know how it’s seasoned, how it’s presented, or how all the elements come together. Real fans at least stay to try the finished plate before deciding it’s not for them.

You can be a fan of the game, but still dislike other classes.

Does this screenshot look like I would be interested in other classes?
I like my khajiit nightblade and done any kind of content with him. Nobody forced me to play other classes yet, because I was able to convince with this char.

When new or stronger metas appear with the update, raid leads will most likely expect different playstyles now.

About your example with the restaurant: When I don't like sushi and I enter a sushi-restaurant, then I will know before, that I won't like it, no matter what ingredients are used.

icapital · April 25

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

Sorry but if people already bail out before such a big system is out without even trying it in final form (or with a few early hotfixes), they are not really fans of the game at all.

It’s like walking out of a restaurant because you saw the ingredients being prepped and assumed you wouldn’t like the dish — without even tasting the final meal. You don’t know how it’s seasoned, how it’s presented, or how all the elements come together. Real fans at least stay to try the finished plate before deciding it’s not for them.

You can be a fan of the game, but still dislike other classes.

Does this screenshot look like I would be interested in other classes?
I like my khajiit nightblade and done any kind of content with him. Nobody forced me to play other classes yet, because I was able to convince with this char.

When new or stronger metas appear with the update, raid leads will most likely expect different playstyles now.

About your example with the restaurant: When I don't like sushi and I enter a sushi-restaurant, then I will know before, that I won't like it, no matter what ingredients are used.

That will still be the character you use to play...nothing is changing with that. It's still that same one toon with the same CP and achieves... the only difference is now you will have the opportunity to diversify the same stagnant skills you've been solely using for who knows how long and can choose to vary up your gameplay... on this same toon...but if you don't want to do that, that's okay too! you can keep those same skill lines.

See, best of both worlds!

edit: and I also enjoy playing with 1 character which is why I have historically enjoyed FFXIV's let 1 character play all jobs model vs. WoW's hyper spec gameplay.

Daoin · April 25

icapital wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

Sorry but if people already bail out before such a big system is out without even trying it in final form (or with a few early hotfixes), they are not really fans of the game at all.

It’s like walking out of a restaurant because you saw the ingredients being prepped and assumed you wouldn’t like the dish — without even tasting the final meal. You don’t know how it’s seasoned, how it’s presented, or how all the elements come together. Real fans at least stay to try the finished plate before deciding it’s not for them.

You can be a fan of the game, but still dislike other classes.

Does this screenshot look like I would be interested in other classes?
I like my khajiit nightblade and done any kind of content with him. Nobody forced me to play other classes yet, because I was able to convince with this char.

When new or stronger metas appear with the update, raid leads will most likely expect different playstyles now.

About your example with the restaurant: When I don't like sushi and I enter a sushi-restaurant, then I will know before, that I won't like it, no matter what ingredients are used.

That will still be the character you use to play...nothing is changing with that. It's still that same one toon with the same CP and achieves... the only difference is now you will have the opportunity to diversify the same stagnant skills you've been solely using for who knows how long and can choose to vary up your gameplay... on this same toon...but if you don't want to do that, that's okay too! you can keep those same skill lines.

See, best of both worlds!

absolutely believe you are simply choosing to skip the point here with this

SilverBride · April 25

I don't feel cheated out of all the time and money I have put into this game until now. But the current changes have completely devalued it for me now and moving forward, and I will not purchase any more content unless they reverse the Sorcerer no pet changes that will completely destroy my 11 year old character that I see as the Matriarch of my account.

It is not "optional" if my most loved character is destroyed for a change I don't even want.

Pixiepumpkin · April 25

Daoin wrote: »

icapital wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

Sorry but if people already bail out before such a big system is out without even trying it in final form (or with a few early hotfixes), they are not really fans of the game at all.

It’s like walking out of a restaurant because you saw the ingredients being prepped and assumed you wouldn’t like the dish — without even tasting the final meal. You don’t know how it’s seasoned, how it’s presented, or how all the elements come together. Real fans at least stay to try the finished plate before deciding it’s not for them.

You can be a fan of the game, but still dislike other classes.

Does this screenshot look like I would be interested in other classes?
I like my khajiit nightblade and done any kind of content with him. Nobody forced me to play other classes yet, because I was able to convince with this char.

When new or stronger metas appear with the update, raid leads will most likely expect different playstyles now.

About your example with the restaurant: When I don't like sushi and I enter a sushi-restaurant, then I will know before, that I won't like it, no matter what ingredients are used.

That will still be the character you use to play...nothing is changing with that. It's still that same one toon with the same CP and achieves... the only difference is now you will have the opportunity to diversify the same stagnant skills you've been solely using for who knows how long and can choose to vary up your gameplay... on this same toon...but if you don't want to do that, that's okay too! you can keep those same skill lines.

See, best of both worlds!

absoluutely believe you are simply skipping the point here with this

Agreed. Completely missing the bigger picture.

They speak as if they work for a marketing department without understanding the core of what players are looking for.

Rohamad_Ali · April 25

Trying to be skeptically optimistic.

Pixiepumpkin · April 25

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't feel cheated out of all the time and money I have put into this game until now. But the current changes have completely devalued it for me now and moving forward, and I will not purchase any more content unless they reverse the Sorcerer no pet changes that will completely destroy my 11 year old character that I see as the Matriarch of my account.

It is not "optional" if my most loved character is destroyed for a change I don't even want.

Exactly.

MMORPG's are designed to be long running games. Many of them don't make it, but the players investment remains the same. We play MMORPGs because they are "forever games" and we put a lot of money into them because we intend to play them for many years to come.

The issue I have is how much I have had to spend on crowns to get cosmetics that can not be obtained in game in order to fulfill my class fantasy. Spending the money for a future invenstment of playing the game does not bother me, but when a change comes that is so sweeping like sub-classing that it redefines much of the game to the point that I lose intrest, then I do get upset about the money spent.

I purchased the year long thing already and my family spent a few hundred on crowns during the sale. This is in hopes that we will have fun in the future.

But the sorc patch notes leave me....well not confindent to say the least. Not confident at all and for that, my wife and I have been kicking ourself in the bum for spending the money. Big time regret.

icapital · April 25

*shrugs* I get the argument against it. I just don't agree with it. You guys keep saying it's going to destroy class identity and essentially make anyone who follows this "pure" class line obsolete, and my counter is to say "start your own groups then".
IMO, your concerns have a solution which exists in the game today. Even that same mage who's running around in heavy armor with daggers who gets declined to pugs can host their own casual groups and join up with others who don't care about the META. I think this change is only going to help us as the players make our toons more in line with how we want them to play. It's nice not having to juggle between multiple alts to experience different classes. I say this as someone who enjoys FFXIV's job system which can be all played on 1 toon.

Pixiepumpkin · April 25

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Trying to be skeptically optimistic.

I have been as well (contrary to how vocal I am against sub classing), but the more I read the patch notes, the more I see people go from loving sub classing then testing it, and then going "ya, this is not a good thing" the more realistic I get about my days being limited in eso.

Pixiepumpkin · April 25

icapital wrote: »

*shrugs* I get the argument against it. I just don't agree with it. You guys keep saying it's going to destroy class identity and essentially make anyone who follows this "pure" class line obsolete, and my counter is to say "start your own groups then".
IMO, your concerns have a solution which exists in the game today. Even that same mage who's running around in heavy armor with daggers who gets declined to pugs can host their own casual groups and join up with others who don't care about the META. That's my point.

1. It DOES destroy class identity, this is not even debatable. It's blaringly obvious what it does to classes and how they ARE ALREADY obsolete based on the PTR. Ask @SilverBride about how her playstyle is completely neutered.
2. Every expansion/year, the dungeon content has become harder. This is to offset power creep. With sub-classing increasing in power, its a matter of time before content is made harder once again, this on top of the fact that hard core players are asking for harder content. And with pure classes taking a back seat DPS wise to sub-classes, well there is your answer. Even if that double dagger mage made a group, their builds would not allow them to finish the content/obtain rewards.

RealLoveBVB · April 25

icapital wrote: »

You guys keep saying it's going to destroy class identity and essentially make anyone who follows this "pure" class line obsolete, and my counter is to say "start your own groups then".

Yeah, because it's so easy nowadays to find 12 like-minded players on high end level. Since account wide achievements, veteran players started to leave and raid groups are dying. Most updates are not in favor of high end players either, so the process of dying groups is still on-going. I said in my first post already, that one of our raid group only have 11 players and it's difficult to find players on a high niveau.
And do you know what? There are not really promising newcomers climbing up the high end ladder, because new players got advised to start with a heavy attack build. So everything they learned is to hold the left mouse button and have no clue about skill- and buff uptimes. They are ESOs future.

icapital · April 25

Got any parse data to support that claim that the dps throughput is insufficient to clear an encounter?? because I haven't read a single thing from the devs that say they're suddenly going to design these encounters around hybrid classes...where'd you read that to arrive to this conclusion that only META can clear X content?? for group content, the group composition of a suboptimal combination could theoretically be sufficient to clear an encounter in the aggregate... but that statement I just made is as speculative as yours without parse data to support it.

So, like everything else we've been going back and forth on, the arguments go both ways lol.

Daoin · April 25

well you only have to look deeper into the notes to see how that is aready happening, i know for sure for example one of my tanks is going to have tougher time in non optimal 4 person content. and since the absolute only way i will consider proceeding to play after this rubbish goes live, is to leave all my chars alone as they are now and to create just one hybrid. that is my way i can see as the only way going forward but i cannot see a good future for the rest of of my chars. the game maybe able to force alot of change on my chars and before this they were just about in the same realm as acceptability but i dont have to do it to myself too to help justify this change

Pixiepumpkin · April 25

icapital wrote: »

Got any parse data to support that claim that the dps throughput is insufficient to clear an encounter?? because I haven't read a single thing from the devs that say they're suddenly going to design these encounters around hybrid classes...where'd you read that to arrive to this conclusion that only META can clear X content?? for group content, the group composition of a suboptimal combination could theoretically be sufficient to clear an encounter in the aggregate... but that statement I just made is as speculative as yours without parse data to support it.

So, like everything else we've been going back and forth on, the arguments go both ways lol.

You don't need to read anything, the proof is already there. As power creep has gone up, content has been tuned harder. Sub classing has shown enormous gaines in power. Couple the power creep of subclassing with the constant pressure from the hardcode community to make "content harder" with the observable and testable fact that content in game gets harder with each update/expansion/chapter then its not hard to see where this leads.

Its ok, its ok though. If Zenimax does not want money anymore from customers who like their classes and who like to see classes, that is there perogative. We are just here trying to let them know with every way possible why they are about to lose a sizable portion of their player base.

Koshka · April 25

icapital wrote: »

*shrugs* I get the argument against it. I just don't agree with it. You guys keep saying it's going to destroy class identity and essentially make anyone who follows this "pure" class line obsolete, and my counter is to say "start your own groups then".
IMO, your concerns have a solution which exists in the game today. Even that same mage who's running around in heavy armor with daggers who gets declined to pugs can host their own casual groups and join up with others who don't care about the META. I think this change is only going to help us as the players make our toons more in line with how we want them to play. It's nice not having to juggle between multiple alts to experience different classes. I say this as someone who enjoys FFXIV's job system which can be all played on 1 toon.

I don't want to make my own group, I don't want to be weaker because I want to play, for example, a dk and not an unholy dk/nb/arcanist hybrid or whatever. The problem is that this patch affects players who don't wanna use the new system in a negative way, which should not be the case. If this is truly about options, then those who choose to opt out should not be punished.
ZOS will nerf the most OP class combos, and by the looks of it, they will be doing it in the easiest way possible - by nerfing and "equalizing" class skill lines. And that punishes those who prefer to play a specific class, for something they have no control over.
I agree that it would be nice to be able to try different classes without having to level alts, but it should've been done in a way that doesn't disrupt other people's gameplay.

sans-culottes · April 25

The discussion around subclassing is not about theoretical possibilities but about the observable structures of group competitiveness and power scaling. While it is true that players technically retain the option to “stay pure,” the social and mechanical pressures surrounding group play, especially in high-end content, are not erased by paper options.

Historically, as player power has increased, content has been tuned harder in response. Subclassing represents a new, substantial form of power creep, and it is reasonable to anticipate that future content will reflect this shift, as it has after previous expansions. Pretending otherwise requires ignoring clear patterns in ESO’s development history.

Likewise, while players can theoretically form their own groups outside the meta, the practical difficulty of assembling twelve high-performing players without shared optimization norms makes this an unrealistic solution at scale. Social structures adapt around mechanical pressures, and marginalization of non-meta players tends to follow system changes of this kind, not because of player cruelty, but because of basic efficiency incentives in group progression.

Thus, concerns about the loss of class identity and increased meta pressure are not speculative hysteria; they are logical projections based on the patterns already visible in the live environment.

SilverBride · April 25

icapital wrote: »

I get the argument against it. I just don't agree with it. You guys keep saying it's going to destroy class identity and essentially make anyone who follows this "pure" class line obsolete, and my counter is to say "start your own groups then".

My complaint has nothing to do with groups. It has to do with how I like to play and I like to play a pure no pet Sorcerer. This build needs to stay viable for whatever I'm doing, in a group or solo.

Daoin · April 25

hopefully nobody will be digging thier spoons into my bowl to often as someone with no intetion of changing to suit subclassing. spending habits changing for sure and for first time considering dropping sub also no point now really focusing in and enjoying the classes and the roles my chars play in them and working to breath even more life into them. so just to repeat its a goodbye i think to classes

Elvenheart · April 25

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I’m planning to be here until they shut off the servers, or I lose all access to electricity and internet, or I die, whichever comes first.

Well said, me too! 😊

valenwood_vegan · April 25

I feel I got my money's worth over the years on average, but this increasingly hasn't been true in recent years as content has been reduced. And now, I think what people are trying to get at, is that if subclassing goes live in a way that ruins existing characters, that people have spent so much time on; and iconic, fun skills that have existed for a decade; it doesn't feel worth it anymore.

Might as well spend on a new game if we're being sent back to the drawing board anyway. We're not actually getting something new here. I'd love a new class or to make some new subclassed characters, but I'm personally not that interested in going back to boring old content to grind out the same old skill lines to completely remake characters I've developed and grown used to over many years, just to get competitive enough to run current content again.

If they spent a little more time thinking subclassing through, both our old "class" characters and new subclassed characters could be viable, but that doesn't seem to be the goal here.

Koshka · April 25

icapital wrote: »

Got any parse data to support that claim that the dps throughput is insufficient to clear an encounter?? because I haven't read a single thing from the devs that say they're suddenly going to design these encounters around hybrid classes...where'd you read that to arrive to this conclusion that only META can clear X content?? for group content, the group composition of a suboptimal combination could theoretically be sufficient to clear an encounter in the aggregate... but that statement I just made is as speculative as yours without parse data to support it.

So, like everything else we've been going back and forth on, the arguments go both ways lol.

Well, let's take a look at the trials we already have, shall we?

Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj was released a long time ago. Back then, our characters had much less power, and so, the trial was balanced around that power level. Nowadays it is much easier because the power level has drastically increased over the years.
The latest trial, Lucent Citadel, is built around much higher power level. Imagine trying to clear that hardmode with 2016 characters that could barely kill a non-hardmode Rakkhat without doing the lunar phase mechanic. And I am not even talking about the speedrun/trifecta...

Same thing can be said about dlc dungeons. If you look at their release dates, you can clearly see that they were balanced around whatever was considered "good" damage at that time. Even world bosses in the new zones are harder and have more hp compared to base game/old dlcs!

What makes you think that they will still keep balancing new content for 100-130k dps if the maximum goes up to 170-190k? It's pretty obvious that the new stuff won't be balanced for the old builds, the same way they did not make vDSR or vSE with the old Julianos/Moondancer builds in mind.

ImmortalCX · April 25

I am a long term casual player with a Nightblade main, a Templar, and a DK at level 50. I don't know how to play those other two classes as I never wanted to bother having to relearn mechanics, new rotations, new builds, etc.

So now if I want to do endgame content, I need to level an Arcanist, Warden, Necro, and Sorc to have access to their class skills. This isn't fun to me. If I had wanted to do that I would already have done it.

However to players with all the classes and skill lines maxed, this change is not as big a deal. They are in a position to take advantage of it, I am not.

I think that is really what this debate is about.: the haves and have nots. This change creates a group of "have nots" (raises hand) who won't have access to skill lines until they invest significant playtime or crowns in a mechanical and unappealing activity (leveling new characters and skills).

In other words, this change dramatically increases the mental stack and difficulity of builds. Now I can't just go to alcast for a build to copy, I have to level up four new classes and whatever other bs it entails.

If they want more people to engage with endgame content, this is not the way to do it. Imagine a new player without any classes levelled up, this is nearly insurmountable to get to meta within a reasonable amount of time.

Tandor · April 25

While I can understand the initial excitement over the additional diversity that subclassing brings, what has clearly dissipated that excitement for a lot of players is the discovery on the PTS that adding that diversity for those who want it will be accompanied by nerfs in the existing skill lines including of those who don't want that diversity, as well as increased pressure on those who don't want it to embrace it if they group or raid. Now that wouldn't matter so much if the retained skill lines were only nerfed when subclassing was used, but that isn't how it's going to work.

It's another nail in the coffin so far as the argument often put by players campaigning for controversial change that "it'll be optional so it won't affect you" is concerned. It's further evidence that ZOS don't do optional.

Koshka · April 25

Tandor wrote: »

While I can understand the initial excitement over the additional diversity that subclassing brings, what has clearly dissipated that excitement for a lot of players is the discovery on the PTS that adding that diversity for those who want it will be accompanied by nerfs in the existing skill lines including of those who don't want that diversity, as well as increased pressure on those who don't want it to embrace it if they group or raid. Now that wouldn't matter so much if the retained skill lines were only nerfed when subclassing was used, but that isn't how it's going to work.

It's another nail in the coffin so far as the argument often put by players campaigning for controversial change that "it'll be optional so it won't affect you" is concerned. It's further evidence that ZOS don't do optional.

The most annoying thing about this is that subclassing could have revitalized the game if it was actually optional (like, no more than 5% dps advantage or so) and visually and mechanically cohesive. Something that could've improved existing characters instead of forcing them to become Frankenstein's monstrosities.

Ryori729 · April 25

MJallday wrote: »

Therefore we are left with this “soup” of a system - which I suspect will cause more problems than it will solve

Mainly quoting because "soup" is what I called it a few weeks ago, and I want it to be a thing :-) I don't mean to focus on word choice but if two of three class lines can be replaced that isn't sub-classing, it is something else. To me it is just refrigerator soup cause you toss everything into one pot. I get some people will like that, and it likely will be fun for a while but there have been problems with balance since I started playing years ago. And it removes the idea of class identity (which they have been kinda doing for some time) which makes you wonder why even have classes except the code gut would be more extensive, I would think.

I would say most of these problems over time are caused by certain gear matched with certain classes and their passives. Just it is just a math thing that take all the gear combos and add a x3000 multiplier and something will be a problem. And it may take time for someone to find that broken combo because there are so many.

Yes, we have choices, but the game was built a certain way. There are many discussions in several areas on what ways to play are valid. For example, I don't like how PvP has gone. But my options are to get destroyed, not play in PvP, or adapt accordingly. There are builds that are fine in some content and stink in others.

I remember a person who wanted advice on builds and they didn't want to take it because they didn't want to be like everyone else. But the problem with that was that my bear pet could out DPS them. This is the extreme, of course, but saying "you can do what you want" only applies to solo play. After that you need a build that matches the goals. A build that is fine for a normal trial may not work for a trifecta run.

Wereswan · April 25

MJallday wrote: »

There’s certainly a vocal amount of people who don’t like anything but a pure class system

Personally i would prefer that - but it involves balancing the game, which the team have conclusively proved time and again they can’t do

Therefore we are left with this “soup” of a system - which I suspect will cause more problems than it will solve

That all said - I’m excited to try it and I’ll have fun experimenting - so I’m not going to throw away 10
Or so years of game time because of this

No, there's a vocal amount of people who would've been just fine with a system where people could mix-and-match skill lines and end up just as good as the existing seven classes. What we're getting instead is a system where players can do that and end up flat-out better than the classes those skill lines come from—and because they end up better, they'll still be in the same relatively superior position regardless of what eventual nerfs get applied. And as evinced by responses in this very thread, when we raise objections we get told "adapt or die" or "if you don't like it, leave," while also being told we're over-reacting to nothing and it'll be fine.

licenturion wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

the origial question and a couple of replies confirm there is no specualation here on this topic, this is what is coming and friends and acquaintances are the ones already going or gone. how it actually performs once its out is not a question here. for me personally this is the fastest i have ever seen anyone actually truly quit playing even before the end of PTS, i swear i tried to water it all down but i cant

Sorry but if people already bail out before such a big system is out without even trying it in final form (or with a few early hotfixes), they are not really fans of the game at all.

It’s like walking out of a restaurant because you saw the ingredients being prepped and assumed you wouldn’t like the dish — without even tasting the final meal. You don’t know how it’s seasoned, how it’s presented, or how all the elements come together. Real fans at least stay to try the finished plate before deciding it’s not for them.

Did you know some of us have a genetic mutation that makes cilantro taste awful? Perhaps not the greatest analogy.

Rungar · April 25

Since you can still play your class as is and be viable for the most part i question the whole "identity" thing. I mean there will be way more classes to choose from. Im sure the popular ones will gain names one way or another at some point.

Daoin · April 25

Rungar wrote: »

Since you can still play your class as is and be viable for the most part i question the whole "identity" thing. I mean there will be way more classes to choose from. Im sure the popular ones will gain names one way or another at some point.

identity is having two high cp templars playing one of them as a healer with a healers name and one as damage dealer with a more tougher name rather than using the armoury to change roles and spending absolute years developing them as a character for that class and just that class. just as one example