PTS Update 46 - Feedback Thread for Subclassing

Joy_Division · April 20

I don't know what you are going to do ZOS, but if there ever was time for an honest communication, it's now.

For Morrowind and Update 35, we basically got a PTS that undercut the power we did have and we saw an exodus of players both times. Despite the large amount of complaints, it was full steam ahead and what went Live was basically what was disliked on the PTS.

For Update 46, we are seeing another dramatic shift in player power, this time a very large potential increase: we are gaining much more than we lost with Morrowind and U35. Once again we have a very contentious PTS. So I am wondering if history is just going to repeat itself and we're just given something on Live that many customers think needs seriously revision.

I really do see why "sub-classing" can be quite a boon for ESO. The reality of the situation is that the vast majority of players in this game cannot complete a lot of content (to say nothing of the most difficult content), so the top 5% of players parsing over 170K DPS will not be relevant to their experiences playing ESO. If players became ESO fans because of Skyrim, many probably saw classes as a unwanted limitation to their gameplay, and if they are struggling to beat Maelstrom Arena, then they likely will endorse this feature wholeheartedly.

That being said, I am already quite bored doing a lot of the older content, precisely because we have so much power (I won't even mention Zone quests/content, which I have stopped doing entirely because it's so unstimulating).
I really dislike it when a game's content is so easy that I have to restrain myself and think of ways to play sub-optimally to avoid running in God-mode. I think ZOS should heed the fears that players are raising here that everything in ESO might feel like Fungal Grotto.

From a philosophical standpoint, I am very curious why all of a sudden we players are allowed such a noticeable powercreep, when the past decade of updates went out of their way to constantly and incessantly nerf us. It is quite the shift in balance design.

As I mostly PvP, I am absolutely not interested in all to see the monstrosities that players are going to roll out. Players are already too powerful, too tanky, heal too much, never run out of resources, use too many overpowered proc sets that make Live PvP usually not very fun to play. I am cringing that organized groups will even output more healing because of cherry picking certain lines, and outputting a disgusting amount of damage now that they can marry their favorite attack skill (Warden Shalks) with the Nightblade kit or other synergistic combinations. That these groups are still going to be permitted to use the Rush of Agony set, which violates just about every standard of combat balance ZOS has ever publicly told us they follow, is incomprehensible to me. Even if PvEers are given something like a "legendary" mode to challenge the 170k+ DPS builds they are coming out with, broken PvP mechanics cannot be fixed in such a way. Given that current Live Cyrodiil was allowed to degrade as it did, I have little confidence that Cyrodiil (or even Battlegrounds) will be much fun after Update 46.

For me anyway, it's looking like Vengeance or bust.

I would like to hear from ZOS how they plan on navigating the perilous course ahead when it comes to sub-classing and what measures they are thinking of the ensure that those folks who want to use sub-classing can do so to their heart's content while ensuring there is still difficult content for experienced players and PvP is something more than organized groups destroying everything in their path and fighting "sweatlords" with builds that are basically invulnerable to 90% of the population.

Wereswan · April 20

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Everyone complaining about how there's going to be a meta combo of sub classing... As if there isn't a meta right now of all arcanist full damage dealers. There will always be a meta; at least subclassing is fantastic fun (especially for my supports!) and opens up endgame content for a far bigger audience.

Herald Of The Tome and it's passives are a big, big part of what makes all those nasty subclass builds tick. You're not changing that meta; you're letting Arcanists pick some flair.

TheDragonMeister · April 20

1) Did the subclassing quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
- I believe so, I also kinda figure things out on my own too.

2) Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
- I think it needs a bit more work. I found it unclear on how to replace skill lines at first. I had to pretty much figure it out on my own on how to do it.

3) How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
- On average, I believe it's not too much longer than average skill lines so shouldn't be too hard to level up.

4) Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
- Yes. I find the current classes good but as a nightblade lover and most of my characters are nightblades I have very little variety with my builds. Now I can change things up and make all my characters unique. Like putting Green Balance on my nightblade bosmer to give a more woof elf feel to him. grave lord on my nightblade vampire to go with my character's backstory of necromancy in his family. And I still need to test this but storm calling on my telvanni dunmer necromancer.

*Take note of the fact that there may be adjustments needed to balance out the game, but I'm more of a roleplayer and solo player so balance isn't my specialty.

Overall Subclass is a great addition to add new things to the game, in a roleplayer's point of view. I find this game already unbalanced because most people have high demands for DD, Healers, and tanks for trials that I can't meet. Like DD needed to deal 80k-100k DPS in order to even join a trial or vet dugeon group. I've given up on trying to meet these demands that is always going to exist. I never got the hang of light attack weaving due to my personal preference of not enjoying 'speed smashing buttons' for extra damage.

5) Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
-Absolutely. I enjoyed the freedom to choose what skill lines I can choose and create even more fun builds that fit my character's backstory and personalities better. Hoping to experiment with my Psijic Archanist, and so many other toons... perhaps finally finding out what to do with my Baan Dar inspired Khajiit Banzi-dar.

TheRoamingSpirit · April 20

Did the subclassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
I did enjoy the quest, However it didn't give an explanation on how to trade-out class skills for another it just explained the options we had available.

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
Took me a bit to figure out that the subclass symbol was what we had to click in order to trade-out skill lines. It wasn't obvious to me at first, I am Autistic so I had to click things to figure it out myself.

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
About as long as it normally does to level skill lines. Just haven't tested fully made build yet.

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
Yes, I will surely use subclassing when it goes live. This is a great idea ZOS to add variety to build making along with all the sets ESO has to offer. I can build my characters the way I wanted them. My Psijic Dunmer who I originally made in Skyrim I moved to ESO. I wanted to go with the usual theme of Tri-elements Fire/Frost/Lighting...But I was stumped with choosing only one element so I was going to choose sets that dealt others but they didn't flow with the build and it wasn't working. But now with Subclassing, It's finally possible.

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
I had a great time testing subclassing and I plan to have more fun with it on the live server to build all my characters. I love this idea ZOS and it has brought me more ideas on how to make my characters unique and versatile for RP, PVE, and PVP. I'm not looking to be the best, I'm wanting to build my characters based of the RP aspect that I center them around. Like my Dark brotherhood assassin with a secret of necromancy and spreading fear and nightmares for the Daedric Prince Vaermina.

personent · April 20

This is just my two cents from reading some of the reactions that others have already written. To be honest, I have not read all of them, but I think I have a gist of something. I would like to present an idea, though I am only one voice.

Being that I have seen people say that all the class lines are being nerfed for the idea of balancing them out for the purposes of sub-classing, may I offer this following idea:

I hope that you, ZoS, would consider the idea of lessening the powers of sub-class class lines taken, but keep them pure and 'full powered' if you keep that skill line as part of the original class.

In other words, if I am a Sorcerer who has the Daedric Summoning line, I would have it at its normal (current?) power level and passives. But, if I take the Daedric Summoning line as a Necromancer, for example, that it would be not as effective as if I were a sorcerer. Same if I was a Sorcerer who took the Grave Lord line...it would not be as strong as if I was pure Necromancer.

I feel like this would satisfy both camps who want to keep their classes and build identities 'pure', and the other camp who likes the idea of sub-classing. This feels like it would offer a good trade off if one wants to sub class their character.

Thank you for listening.

PrinceShroob · April 20

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

...at least subclassing... opens up endgame content for a far bigger audience.

It doesn't, though. It'll increase the power level of endgame players and it'll raise the barrier to entry. Those who can't get into endgame in most cases aren't willing to make build alterations and listen to advice--it's not a matter of not having the capacity for the necessary skill. Subclassing will not change that.

The most important barrier to overcome for anyone looking to get into endgame is thinking you know better than the meta.

VixxVexx · April 21

This is the lowest-effort version of 'subclassing' that I've ever seen. This should be scrapped, but we all know it's going to go live as is (U35 2.0). It'll be left unfinished for years, just like scribing and hybridization.

SkaiFaith · April 21

Just please consider the implementation of a Class Change Token - now more than ever it is needed.
Other than that, very excited!

ForumBully · April 21

I think if you're going to write a post about stopping Subclassing before it goes live, or asking for a nerfed system where subclassed skill lines are weaker, you're wasting your time. I don't believe that's even an option. The PTS lasts a short time and posts like that are just noise.
The player base needs to start talking about the relative strength of skill lines...not whether Sorcs or Necros need more help, but the relative strength of the skill lines in those class trees. There's been a lot about those things, and some great ideas as well as accurate criticism but there's still so much noise about system itself and "pure class" nonsense. The metas that emerge from this system will be the best unbiased data ZoS can get about the relative strength of skill lines and I expect those skill lines to be adjusted accordingly, but some changes are possible before this goes live if people focus on those adjustments without "the sky is falling!"

Wereswan · April 21

ForumBully wrote: »

I think if you're going to write a post about stopping Subclassing before it goes live, or asking for a nerfed system where subclassed skill lines are weaker, you're wasting your time. I don't believe that's even an option. The PTS lasts a short time and posts like that are just noise.
The player base needs to start talking about the relative strength of skill lines...not whether Sorcs or Necros need more help, but the relative strength of the skill lines in those class trees. There's been a lot about those things, and some great ideas as well as accurate criticism but there's still so much noise about system itself and "pure class" nonsense. The metas that emerge from this system will be the best unbiased data ZoS can get about the relative strength of skill lines and I expect those skill lines to be adjusted accordingly, but some changes are possible before this goes live if people focus on those adjustments without "the sky is falling!"

But the problem isn't the "relative strength of the skill lines," it's the broken interactions that come from combining them in ways never foreseen when those skills were created. It's why some subclassed builds end up obnoxiously overpowered, and why pure classes (and subclasses where players don't gravitate to the three most overloaded options they can find) will always suffer more from the inevitable nerfs.

Looking at individual skill lines in strictest isolation rather than considering all the broken interactions this system enables is part of the problem.

chingiz · April 21

As many people already mentioned current Subclass implementation in strait up bad.
For example I'm a DPS warden and "Green Balance" line does not give me any dps. So any other warden with Subclass that replaces "Green Balance" will do more dps than me.
So it is no giving me more choice, it is making me non-competitive unless I'm using Subclass.

Wereswan · April 21

chingiz wrote: »

As many people already mentioned current Subclass implementation in strait up bad.
For example I'm a DPS warden and "Green Balance" line does not give me any dps. So any other warden with Subclass that replaces "Green Balance" will do more dps than me.
So it is no giving me more choice, it is making me non-competitive unless I'm using Subclass.

It's "skill remixing," more or less; people are going to gravitate towards whatever will give them the most power, and everything else will fall by the wayside. It's also worth noting here that the folks hoping this will breathe life into some alts may still end up disappointed, since you can only replace two skill lines and their alt may be from a class where none of the three are now "meta."

ForumBully · April 21

Wereswan wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

I think if you're going to write a post about stopping Subclassing before it goes live, or asking for a nerfed system where subclassed skill lines are weaker, you're wasting your time. I don't believe that's even an option. The PTS lasts a short time and posts like that are just noise.
The player base needs to start talking about the relative strength of skill lines...not whether Sorcs or Necros need more help, but the relative strength of the skill lines in those class trees. There's been a lot about those things, and some great ideas as well as accurate criticism but there's still so much noise about system itself and "pure class" nonsense. The metas that emerge from this system will be the best unbiased data ZoS can get about the relative strength of skill lines and I expect those skill lines to be adjusted accordingly, but some changes are possible before this goes live if people focus on those adjustments without "the sky is falling!"

But the problem isn't the "relative strength of the skill lines," it's the broken interactions that come from combining them in ways never foreseen when those skills were created. It's why some subclassed builds end up obnoxiously overpowered, and why pure classes (and subclasses where players don't gravitate to the three most overloaded options they can find) will always suffer more from the inevitable nerfs.

Looking at individual skill lines in strictest isolation rather than considering all the broken interactions this system enables is part of the problem.

Then those interactions need documentation and discussion. "The system is bad" doesn't need discussion because it's going nowhere

katorga · April 21

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?

Yes
Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
Took me a bit to figure out how to add/remove new skill lines
How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?

Too long, if you already have an alt at level 50 with all skill lines maxed, you should not have to level them
Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?

No choice ZOS has nerfed my two primary classes to a poor state. Better to subclass from the classes that got buffed.
Did you have fun experimenting with the system?

Sort of. It does seem like everyone will be running the same subclasses

Personally I think you should go all the way, all players to subclass all THREE lines of their class while maintaining their class name (tied to class sets, etc). Lines from original class should count 1 SP. None class lines like weapons armor should always cost 1 SP. Players should be effectively able to "change classes" and subclass three lines from any single class. FOr example, drop all of my necro lines for three NB lines.

Subclass line 1 = 2SP
Subclass line 2 from a different class = 2SP
Subclass line 3 from a different class from first two = 3SP

If you sublcass 2 or more lines from a single class, 4SP each.

master_vanargand · April 21

Honestly, I'm okay with subclassing already (Probably won't change).
Also just give Races the freedom to choose their passive skills.
It destroy the identity of the class, if so It should be okay to destroy the identity of the races.
I don't want to be forced to be a cat to get 12% critical damage.

SwimsWithMemes · April 22

katorga wrote: »

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?

Yes

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
Took me a bit to figure out how to add/remove new skill lines

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?

Too long, if you already have an alt at level 50 with all skill lines maxed, you should not have to level them

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?

No choice ZOS has nerfed my two primary classes to a poor state. Better to subclass from the classes that got buffed.

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?

Sort of. It does seem like everyone will be running the same subclasses

Personally I think you should go all the way, all players to subclass all THREE lines of their class while maintaining their class name (tied to class sets, etc). Lines from original class should count 1 SP. None class lines like weapons armor should always cost 1 SP. Players should be effectively able to "change classes" and subclass three lines from any single class. FOr example, drop all of my necro lines for three NB lines.

Subclass line 1 = 2SP
Subclass line 2 from a different class = 2SP
Subclass line 3 from a different class from first two = 3SP

If you sublcass 2 or more lines from a single class, 4SP each.

Skill points increases are a terrible way of making multi-skilling a "cost", just like needing to grind EXP. It's not a real decision to make, it just takes time or buying skyshards. The better way is to add interesting flourishes to unique combinations.

colossalvoids · April 22

Holycannoli wrote: »

After 11 years, after all our theorycrafting, grinding gear, golding gear, learning rotations, they're throwing it ALL out and reinventing the game with their idea of "subclasses"

Subclasses should be like, let's say Path of Exile. In POE you can further specialize your Templar with a choice of 3 "subclasses": Inquisitor, Hierophant or Guardian.

Absolutely this. Instead of taking choices away with subclassing it should've add more of them as ascendancies do. More class flavours, more specialisation. Not a quirky meaningless blend of everything where identity just gets destroyed even further, also shifting out unique class abilities with every patch as for sure everything unique or impactful will get nerfed, that's not even a question of if but when exactly last drops would be sucked out of "pure" classes.

Ph1p · April 22

Maybe we can buff the HP of trial and dungeon bosses by 10% to make up for all the damage creep… </s>

Wereswan · April 22

SwimsWithMemes wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?

Yes

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
Took me a bit to figure out how to add/remove new skill lines

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?

Too long, if you already have an alt at level 50 with all skill lines maxed, you should not have to level them

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?

No choice ZOS has nerfed my two primary classes to a poor state. Better to subclass from the classes that got buffed.

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?

Sort of. It does seem like everyone will be running the same subclasses

Personally I think you should go all the way, all players to subclass all THREE lines of their class while maintaining their class name (tied to class sets, etc). Lines from original class should count 1 SP. None class lines like weapons armor should always cost 1 SP. Players should be effectively able to "change classes" and subclass three lines from any single class. FOr example, drop all of my necro lines for three NB lines.

Subclass line 1 = 2SP
Subclass line 2 from a different class = 2SP
Subclass line 3 from a different class from first two = 3SP

If you sublcass 2 or more lines from a single class, 4SP each.

Skill points increases are a terrible way of making multi-skilling a "cost", just like needing to grind EXP. It's not a real decision to make, it just takes time or buying skyshards. The better way is to add interesting flourishes to unique combinations.

It doesn't really seem like it creates any sort of effective limit. If I understand correctly how the system works, someone like me with several alts for each class will be able to sign in, get all 21 of the achievements, do X short intro quests (where X is the number of alts you have,) and then you're all set to add these at level 50. The biggest hassle will be shifting skill points around, and most folks with an established roster of characters should have plenty of those to spare.

It seem like it'll mostly just impact new players trying to make use of it.

SpiritKitten · April 22

Wereswan wrote: »

SwimsWithMemes wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?

Yes

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
Took me a bit to figure out how to add/remove new skill lines

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?

Too long, if you already have an alt at level 50 with all skill lines maxed, you should not have to level them

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?

No choice ZOS has nerfed my two primary classes to a poor state. Better to subclass from the classes that got buffed.

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?

Sort of. It does seem like everyone will be running the same subclasses

Personally I think you should go all the way, all players to subclass all THREE lines of their class while maintaining their class name (tied to class sets, etc). Lines from original class should count 1 SP. None class lines like weapons armor should always cost 1 SP. Players should be effectively able to "change classes" and subclass three lines from any single class. FOr example, drop all of my necro lines for three NB lines.

Subclass line 1 = 2SP
Subclass line 2 from a different class = 2SP
Subclass line 3 from a different class from first two = 3SP

If you sublcass 2 or more lines from a single class, 4SP each.

Skill points increases are a terrible way of making multi-skilling a "cost", just like needing to grind EXP. It's not a real decision to make, it just takes time or buying skyshards. The better way is to add interesting flourishes to unique combinations.

It doesn't really seem like it creates any sort of effective limit. If I understand correctly how the system works, someone like me with several alts for each class will be able to sign in, get all 21 of the achievements, do X short intro quests (where X is the number of alts you have,) and then you're all set to add these at level 50. The biggest hassle will be shifting skill points around, and most folks with an established roster of characters should have plenty of those to spare.

It seem like it'll mostly just impact new players trying to make use of it.

No matter if you have that skill line that you want to swap to maxed on an alt, you must still re-level it as a subclass skill line. And it will take twice as long and cost twice as many skill points.

Joy_Division · April 22

It's been a long time since I've touched the PTS, but I decided to give sub-classing a try because I see how controversial this is.

To your questions:

Did the subclassing quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?

Not really, but enough to figured it out. The text is really small (some of us are old and do not play on consoles with 80 inch super duper high resolution flatscreens) and I'm guessing I go back to the same quest-giver if I want to try a different class-line. But at the end of the day, I did manage to slot a Nightblade line on my Templar and Conceal Weapon spam in the Infinite Archive.

I've always been a fan of game manuals and directions or the 21st century equivalent of large screenshots with big arrows and numbers walking me through new mechanics, but I guess it's just the MMO way not to provide these services for their customers.

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?

I wouldn't say confusing. Rather the text isn't a big as it could be and I'm not getting a very informative brekadown of the mechanic. It's not confusing though

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
Not long at all. 5 minutes in the Infinite Archive got me level 10. Some people may see this as an unnecessary hassle, but I'm good with the whole roleplay thing. I presume a purchase to level 50 is fine. I'm OK with this (as everything else) if those funds went into making PvP more fun (i.e., please don;t mess up Vengeance).

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?

Yes. Not only do I like character customization, it would appear as if I have to if I want to remain competitive and not throw my computer out the window for nerfing one of my class lines into uselessness.

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?

Yes. In every RPG I have ever played, I like to mess around and make quirky builds.

What I learned while playing this on the PTS

I just realized, there isn't really anything that makes me a Templar. For 11 years, when people saw me as a Templar, they either said to themsevles, "ahh, we now of a healer in our group" (circa 2014-2015), or "ahh, another Jesus Beam spammer" (circa 2017-2019), or "ahh, why are you trying to Jab me with that overly nerfed skill while I am running around with Major Evasion" (post update 35).

Now, they aren't going to say anything. Because there is nothing special, no bonuses, no buffs, no features, nothing exclusive, for being a Templar. Anyone can Jesus Beam, Jab, or Breath of Life.

I just realized that Dragonknights don;t get anything fire or poison related, Nightblades get nothing stealthy or assassiny, and Necromancers are nothing special when it comes to (un)death. Whatever they did get was just a consequence of a skill-line, which is now equally accessible to everyone.

To me, this is the final nail in the coffin for concept of class identity.

How could we ensure our original class means something, aside from pretending that my non-class skill are "sub" lines rather, as if they were somehow inferior too or not a central component of what my character will be after U46 goes Live?

I think people are worried about just remaining a bland old Templar, who gets absolutely nothing, and be relegated to role-play, unwanted and uninvited to competitive content. That concern is legitimate.

I am reminded of the missed opportunity of the class-sets from Infinite Archive. Here was an opportunity to really make being a Templar stand out and mean something. And instead we mostly got generic proc sets with a colorful flavor. I was quite disappointed when my Wrathsun set just dropped Novas on random skeletons, not even making said Nova anything special.

It almost seems like for quite a few years, with standardization, with the "min-max" replacement of our core skills with superior scribing alternatives, with the realization that half of my skill active skills on one bar are from the Fighter's Guild line (Barbed Trap, Camo Hunter, Dawnbreaker gives a boatload of power), it certainly seems to me that ESO has been moving away from class identity.

Maybe do what other RPG systems do that allow for "sub-classing." Players get boons, benefits, and buffs just by virtue of being a base class. The only way to get them is from a base/original class. That way our class has meaning and tangible things that cannot be cherry-picked by mix-maxers. These unique attributes ensure there will always be a reason to be one of the seven base classes, regardless of the vicissitudes of meta and the nerf-buff cycle.

The point is, we get nothing for remaining a "pure" Templar. Other games not only provide some base power for a base class, but also typically reward pure class progression with some sort of capstone ability that can only be reached by someone who stays true to being a Templar. Some sort of tangible power is definitely needed for those who just want to be their base-class.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure we're going to go into the opposite direction. "Over-performing" skills and combinations are going to get nerfed in a desperate race to reign in the power of class combinations by min-maxers, and the purists are just going to have to eat those nerfs.

Wereswan · April 22

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

SwimsWithMemes wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?

Yes

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
Took me a bit to figure out how to add/remove new skill lines

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?

Too long, if you already have an alt at level 50 with all skill lines maxed, you should not have to level them

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?

No choice ZOS has nerfed my two primary classes to a poor state. Better to subclass from the classes that got buffed.

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?

Sort of. It does seem like everyone will be running the same subclasses

Personally I think you should go all the way, all players to subclass all THREE lines of their class while maintaining their class name (tied to class sets, etc). Lines from original class should count 1 SP. None class lines like weapons armor should always cost 1 SP. Players should be effectively able to "change classes" and subclass three lines from any single class. FOr example, drop all of my necro lines for three NB lines.

Subclass line 1 = 2SP
Subclass line 2 from a different class = 2SP
Subclass line 3 from a different class from first two = 3SP

If you sublcass 2 or more lines from a single class, 4SP each.

Skill points increases are a terrible way of making multi-skilling a "cost", just like needing to grind EXP. It's not a real decision to make, it just takes time or buying skyshards. The better way is to add interesting flourishes to unique combinations.

It doesn't really seem like it creates any sort of effective limit. If I understand correctly how the system works, someone like me with several alts for each class will be able to sign in, get all 21 of the achievements, do X short intro quests (where X is the number of alts you have,) and then you're all set to add these at level 50. The biggest hassle will be shifting skill points around, and most folks with an established roster of characters should have plenty of those to spare.

It seem like it'll mostly just impact new players trying to make use of it.

No matter if you have that skill line that you want to swap to maxed on an alt, you must still re-level it as a subclass skill line. And it will take twice as long and cost twice as many skill points.

See, that was how I first thought this work, and then was informed by someone that it was incorrect. But assuming that's correct, it still ends up with a result where I have 20 characters ready to go on launch day, just waiting to grind through the system and maybe also have to level those skill lines one more time each, while a new or returning player is starting from the beginning. It seems like it impacts those players a lot more.

AdmiralDigby · April 22

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't know what you are going to do ZOS, but if there ever was time for an honest communication, it's now.

For Morrowind and Update 35, we basically got a PTS that undercut the power we did have and we saw an exodus of players both times. Despite the large amount of complaints, it was full steam ahead and what went Live was basically what was disliked on the PTS.

For Update 46, we are seeing another dramatic shift in player power, this time a very large potential increase: we are gaining much more than we lost with Morrowind and U35. Once again we have a very contentious PTS. So I am wondering if history is just going to repeat itself and we're just given something on Live that many customers think needs seriously revision.

I really do see why "sub-classing" can be quite a boon for ESO. The reality of the situation is that the vast majority of players in this game cannot complete a lot of content (to say nothing of the most difficult content), so the top 5% of players parsing over 170K DPS will not be relevant to their experiences playing ESO. If players became ESO fans because of Skyrim, many probably saw classes as a unwanted limitation to their gameplay, and if they are struggling to beat Maelstrom Arena, then they likely will endorse this feature wholeheartedly.

That being said, I am already quite bored doing a lot of the older content, precisely because we have so much power (I won't even mention Zone quests/content, which I have stopped doing entirely because it's so unstimulating).
I really dislike it when a game's content is so easy that I have to restrain myself and think of ways to play sub-optimally to avoid running in God-mode. I think ZOS should heed the fears that players are raising here that everything in ESO might feel like Fungal Grotto.

From a philosophical standpoint, I am very curious why all of a sudden we players are allowed such a noticeable powercreep, when the past decade of updates went out of their way to constantly and incessantly nerf us. It is quite the shift in balance design.

As I mostly PvP, I am absolutely not interested in all to see the monstrosities that players are going to roll out. Players are already too powerful, too tanky, heal too much, never run out of resources, use too many overpowered proc sets that make Live PvP usually not very fun to play. I am cringing that organized groups will even output more healing because of cherry picking certain lines, and outputting a disgusting amount of damage now that they can marry their favorite attack skill (Warden Shalks) with the Nightblade kit or other synergistic combinations. That these groups are still going to be permitted to use the Rush of Agony set, which violates just about every standard of combat balance ZOS has ever publicly told us they follow, is incomprehensible to me. Even if PvEers are given something like a "legendary" mode to challenge the 170k+ DPS builds they are coming out with, broken PvP mechanics cannot be fixed in such a way. Given that current Live Cyrodiil was allowed to degrade as it did, I have little confidence that Cyrodiil (or even Battlegrounds) will be much fun after Update 46.

For me anyway, it's looking like Vengeance or bust.

I would like to hear from ZOS how they plan on navigating the perilous course ahead when it comes to sub-classing and what measures they are thinking of the ensure that those folks who want to use sub-classing can do so to their heart's content while ensuring there is still difficult content for experienced players and PvP is something more than organized groups destroying everything in their path and fighting "sweatlords" with builds that are basically invulnerable to 90% of the population.

Most players can't compete because a few universla things:

1. Overland has no progression. It's insanely easy to clear.
2. Because of point 1. Players get to vet difficulty and see a MASSIVE increase of difficulty and claim it's "too hard" because of the drastic sudden change in difficulty.

How to fix this:
1. Overland can now have harder difficulties (essentially a veteran mode for overland). When you activate it you take penalty to dmg done & increased dmg taken. For this increased difficulty you get better loot and more xp. Players natural progress while leveling.

Even if they implemented above. The main thing holding players back is them not willing to look up a build video or a mechanics video for the content. It's pure laziness and lack of interest.

AdmiralDigby · April 22

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

1) Did the subclassing quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
- I believe so, I also kinda figure things out on my own too.

2) Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
- I think it needs a bit more work. I found it unclear on how to replace skill lines at first. I had to pretty much figure it out on my own on how to do it.

3) How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
- On average, I believe it's not too much longer than average skill lines so shouldn't be too hard to level up.

4) Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
- Yes. I find the current classes good but as a nightblade lover and most of my characters are nightblades I have very little variety with my builds. Now I can change things up and make all my characters unique. Like putting Green Balance on my nightblade bosmer to give a more woof elf feel to him. grave lord on my nightblade vampire to go with my character's backstory of necromancy in his family. And I still need to test this but storm calling on my telvanni dunmer necromancer.

*Take note of the fact that there may be adjustments needed to balance out the game, but I'm more of a roleplayer and solo player so balance isn't my specialty.

Overall Subclass is a great addition to add new things to the game, in a roleplayer's point of view. I find this game already unbalanced because most people have high demands for DD, Healers, and tanks for trials that I can't meet. Like DD needed to deal 80k-100k DPS in order to even join a trial or vet dugeon group. I've given up on trying to meet these demands that is always going to exist. I never got the hang of light attack weaving due to my personal preference of not enjoying 'speed smashing buttons' for extra damage.

5) Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
-Absolutely. I enjoyed the freedom to choose what skill lines I can choose and create even more fun builds that fit my character's backstory and personalities better. Hoping to experiment with my Psijic Archanist, and so many other toons... perhaps finally finding out what to do with my Baan Dar inspired Khajiit Banzi-dar.

You can meet those requirements. You choose not to put in the effort to do so. Which is fine. Everyone can choose how they want to play the game. Nothing wrong with that. Thats the point of multiple difficulties

Tariq9898 · April 22

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Pure classes should not be underpowered compared to hybrids. If anything, the pure classes should have more raw power than hybrid classes.

This. I should not be left behind or even kicked out of the group when choosing to do a pure class. It's my choice and if ZOS wants players to have absolute freedom in their build identity, then pure classes should be on par with subclassing!

Adah · April 23

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
- Yes it's pretty much straightforward.

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
- It's very confusing. The class logo are used but they're not even on our characters nameplates. The swap system isn't clear at all.

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
- I used an instant template.

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
- No.

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
- No, and I would like to elaborate.

The idea of introducing a class mixing system in ESO isn't inherently bad; it could lead to some exciting possibilities. However, I think it's poorly executed.
For me, the most enjoyable part of ESO is the unique fantasy each class offers, making them distinct. The thought of losing that identity makes me hesitant to continue to play. My character won't be a part of something specific, it will be like any other characters. There isn't any originality at all.

If you truly wanted to implement this system, limiting it to one skill line from another class would've been more balanced, rather than two, which makes it feel like a messy hybrid.

Moreover, naming these new class combos, like 'Fallen Templar' for Templar-Necromancer or 'Lich Sorcerer' for Sorcerer-Necromancer, would add some much-needed clarity and identity.
Overall, the current approach feels like it's diluting what makes each class special.

I'm not even talking about the metas. I'm only talking about what makes ESO unique.

I feel that it's a shortcut from the dev team to better balance the game. It gives the impression that the game is on the finish line and they're allowing everything to make it last a bit more.

I'm not a hardcore player, I don't care about having the most optimised class, using a meta or else. But I want to keep my class identity.

A mix of 2 classes would be fine for me. A mix of 3 is a no go for me to be able to feel connected to my character.

I hope they will reconsider.

PDarkBHood · April 23

I am really looking forward to subclassing this June. Unfortunately, I don't have much time to test it out on the PTS (maybe later).

I do have a question: Is subclassing compatible with the Armory slots system? If so, then please increase the number of Armory slots to 15 or 20. This will allow us to save our new subclassed characters (hopefully)!! Currently, I have all 10 of my Armory slots filled with different builds of my character. With subclassing I can only see more demand for Armory slots, this will allow even more flexibility in saving your character builds. I do not want to start a new character, one is enough for me (Templar). Thank you!

gc0018 · April 24

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

How to fix this:
1. Overland can now have harder difficulties (essentially a veteran mode for overland). When you activate it you take penalty to dmg done & increased dmg taken. For this increased difficulty you get better loot and more xp. Players natural progress while leveling.

I would like them to add a veteran / arena mode of overland even the only reward is an achievement. It is sad to kill a final boss of a region in 15s, despite the fact that I just went through a long story telling me how evil/powerful he is. It ruins everything. Challenge itself is the reward sometime.

gc0018 · April 24

I have quickly checked the reply here.

The discussion of subclass is on fire, compared to any other topic in another recent updates within a year (base on the number of replies and posts in the first week of PTS). The reviewers believe current subclass will bring a negative effect generally get 5-15 "agrees"; the reviewers believe current subclass is positive generally gets 0-2 agrees, few reaches 4-5. The amount of negative feedback is at least twice more than positive feedback (yet I don't know if any reply being deleted).

And I try to reason why ZOS want to do the subclass eagerly, yet the post is deleted. So, I just copy the first part of the reply back here and remove the data from non-ZOS source as well as the reasoning part. Hope it is still useful in some way.

Erickson9610 · April 24

The Templar Class Mastery effect requires the Restoring Light skill line to receive the maximum benefit:

For comparison, all three Arcanist skill lines contain at least one skill which consumes Crux, so their Class Mastery that generates Crux is always useful, no matter which skill lines they swap out. Further, Necromancer's Class Mastery is useful regardless of whether they interact with the corpse mechanic, because it has a different effect depending on whether or not corpses are nearby.

Templar is the only Class with a Scribing Class Mastery effect that they cannot get the full benefit from if they swap out the wrong skill line. Please rework Templar's Class Mastery effect to be as useful as the other Class Mastery effects in light of Subclassing. A simple solution would be to add the +50% to the Armor and WD/SD without needing the use of Class skills.