Battlegrounds: Cycle of Self-Destruction

xylena_lazarow · March 20

Haki_7 wrote: »

Post with damage and healing so I can balance them in simple and tangible ways.

Are you a dev for this game? No? Then it's just fanfiction. Sorry I didn't have the addon 6 years ago lol.

You tried to do this with a BG we were both in, and you ended up putting the 3 best players from that match on the same team (sorry you're good but you're not a 50k hp Warden), this seemed anything but simple or tangible, considering how janky scoring is, and how there's no way we could realistically recreate those teams to test your theory.

If you evaluate me by score, you vastly underestimate me, since the game does not count cross shields.

Thumbless_Bot · March 20

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Post with damage and healing so I can balance them in simple and tangible ways.

Are you a dev for this game? No? Then it's just fanfiction. Sorry I didn't have the addon 6 years ago lol.

You tried to do this with a BG we were both in, and you ended up putting the 3 best players from that match on the same team (sorry you're good but you're not a 50k hp Warden), this seemed anything but simple or tangible, considering how janky scoring is, and how there's no way we could realistically recreate those teams to test your theory.

If you evaluate me by score, you vastly underestimate me, since the game does not count cross shields.

Scoring in bgs borders on absurd. It's not an accurate indicator of anything except one ability to build into things that give medals and then successfully pursue those medals in a bg.

xylena_lazarow · March 20

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

I mean, you are literally doing what you are accusing someone else of doing. It's odd.

Please do make a separate thread on 3-sided strats and tactics. I would be happy to join in and offer what I've learned over a decade of living in Cyrodiil, including successfully leading factions as zone general, dealing with all kinds of third party nonsense, if you would like to know how deep I can go into winning at 3-sided PvP in this game.

Thumbless_Bot · March 20

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

I mean, you are literally doing what you are accusing someone else of doing. It's odd.

Please do make a separate thread on 3-sided strats and tactics. I would be happy to join in and offer what I've learned over a decade of living in Cyrodiil, including successfully leading factions as zone general, dealing with all kinds of third party nonsense, if you would like to know how deep I can go into winning at 3-sided PvP in this game.

Again, sideways.

Haki_7 · March 20

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Post with damage and healing so I can balance them in simple and tangible ways.

Are you a dev for this game? No? Then it's just fanfiction. Sorry I didn't have the addon 6 years ago lol.

You tried to do this with a BG we were both in, and you ended up putting the 3 best players from that match on the same team (sorry you're good but you're not a 50k hp Warden), this seemed anything but simple or tangible, considering how janky scoring is, and how there's no way we could realistically recreate those teams to test your theory.

If you evaluate me by score, you vastly underestimate me, since the game does not count cross shields.

My fanfiction of balanced battlegrounds is better than your fanfiction of nerfing Rush of Agony, you non-game dev.

xylena_lazarow · March 20

Haki_7 wrote: »

My fanfiction of balanced battlegrounds is better than your fanfiction of nerfing Rush of Agony, you non-game dev.

I'm doing exactly what successful game devs ask of players when it comes to feedback: identify the problem, let the devs solve it. You don't need to take it from me, take it from the lead dev of Magic, a far bigger game than ESO.

You identified lopsided matches and long queues as problems. I agree. That's on ZOS to solve, not us.

Decimus · March 20

I don't think "lopsided matches" is an issue though, not any more so than in most other competitive games. You win some you lose some, some are easy wins others not - you'll find this to be case in atleast 12 of the games here:

...what we're talking about here is a perception issue. If one feels like there's too many "lopsided matches", it means their win rate probably isn't as high as they'd like it to be... but this is something that can be fixed by either playing different builds or simply by playing better. A lot of the BGs that feel like they should be losses can be turned into wins with the correct play (and mindset).

Interestingly, the further you move the win rate of players towards 50%, the more "lopsided matches" you'll also experience since that'd mean there's no room for outplaying or skill expression & it'd quite literally just be a coin flip from the moment you queue... which is actually much closer to what it used to be in the old three way format.

Just some food for thought.

xylena_lazarow · March 20

Decimus wrote: »

I don't think "lopsided matches" is an issue though

There will always be lopsided matches in any PvP game, but some sort of mercy rule could help a lot.

Haki_7 · March 21

Calastir wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Don't you want these lopsided BGs to be balanced?

Dunno what you mean, 2s look fine to me.

Unlike all those other cherry picked examples, this one is absolute proof!

Don't worry. I promise I'll keep reminding everyone of the game-breaking problems affecting Battlegrounds until they are fixed. Please send gold as thanks.

And the fact that many problems in this game have never been fixed does not deter you?

The hardest choices require the strongest wills

xylena_lazarow · March 22

Haki_7 wrote: »

The hardest choices require the strongest wills

That one Hardened Ward thread went for over 6 months and 2000 posts. We're only a quarter there.

Haki_7 · March 22

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

The hardest choices require the strongest wills

That one Hardened Ward thread went for over 6 months and 2000 posts. We're only a quarter there.

I already have enough 500-0 matches to spam this thread every hour of every day for years.

Moonspawn · March 22

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

My fanfiction of balanced battlegrounds is better than your fanfiction of nerfing Rush of Agony, you non-game dev.

I'm doing exactly what successful game devs ask of players when it comes to feedback: identify the problem, let the devs solve it. You don't need to take it from me, take it from the lead dev of Magic, a far bigger game than ESO.

You identified lopsided matches and long queues as problems. I agree. That's on ZOS to solve, not us.

All of the work that Haki has been putting into improving your beloved 8v8 and you won't even buy him a month of ESO plus for his troubles. You're heartless

EvilGoatKing · March 22

This thread is proof that the pvp is better on the forums than in the bgs.

xylena_lazarow · March 23

Moonspawn wrote: »

All of the work that Haki has been putting into improving your beloved 8v8 and you won't even buy him a month of ESO plus for his troubles. You're heartless

Haki keeps making posts about how much 8v8 is fake and lopsided while asking for 3s back. I disagree and think Haki should take a different approach, perhaps making more of a case for what there is to love so much about 3s, not just cherry picked screenshots, or helping me ask for a mercy rule system to alleviate the issue of lopsided matches wasting time. There seriously aren't as many lopsided matches as Haki's posts would suggest and it's an issue in any random PvP.

EvilGoatKing wrote: »

This thread is proof that the pvp is better on the forums than in the bgs.

PvChat is the real PvP, and we're only 500 ish posts in!

Haki_7 · March 23

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki keeps making posts about how much 8v8 is fake and lopsided while asking for 3s back. I disagree and think Haki should take a different approach, perhaps making more of a case for what there is to love so much about 3s, not just cherry picked screenshots, or helping me ask for a mercy rule system to alleviate the issue of lopsided matches wasting time. There seriously aren't as many lopsided matches as Haki's posts would suggest and it's an issue in any random PvP.

Once again, my goal is not to convince anyone of which format is better, but simply for players to be granted the freedom to choose. It would make more sense to post lopsided 4v4's, but my queues are already long enough in 8v8 and I'm still busy trying to finish my build on EU. Would you like to take over the posting?

My irrelevant personal opinion regarding your mercy rule fanfiction suggestion is that every match should be fought until the end, like we used to... in the golden days:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Fl4DaDzFc

xylena_lazarow · March 23

Haki_7 wrote: »

every match should be fought until the end, like we used to

Okay like, your choice then to stick around til the bitter end of a match that was decided 14min ago. Are you the sort of player who enjoys playing for 2nd place? Your video is funny just because I have this from exactly the same era:

I'm sure Taugrim (very good player) was staying focused on winning the objective, I have no idea what I was doing, but enough 3s with numbers like this go by, and I start to feel like my performance just doesn't matter. Meanwhile, twice in the past week I rallied my 8v8 team from 180+ down in DM to win, deploying new tactics each one.

Haki_7 · March 24

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 52: Waiting 25 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15gwVhU-xZk

xylena_lazarow · March 24

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 52,000,000: Waiting 8 years for a competitive match (4v4v4 PC/NA)

Nvm they fixed it. 8v8 solo. Praise Sithis.

Haki_7 · March 24

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 53: Waiting 34 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnckp9JvZ-E

Moonspawn · March 25

Please don't derail the thread with a pointless debate about personal taste. After one or two of the four queue options have been replaced by 3-sided BGs, players will be able to choose what they consider to be the superior format.

Grega · March 25

Estin wrote: »

Grega wrote: »

There will be lots of self-destructions this weekend 🙂.

Most of the time, within the first 30 second it is already determined and decided who will win and who won’t.

Also, help section of the game state there is no leaderboard for 8v8 - and that leaderboard is used for MMR calculation. Ergo - no MMR for 8v8. Meaning no wait time. Except, there is - why? Less than 16 people playing on the entire server? 🫠

I hate to break it for you, but MMR is enabled for 8v8. It was added in at the last moment during PTS I believe. You can even see the message pop up saying your MMR loss is reduced whenever someone leaves the match.

I have noticed that yeah, and considered it a bug due to overwhelming evidence/statements. Well, if it is true, employees have to be educated as support has stated there is no MMR (last week). And if you look at help section in game (today), it also states there that 8v8 is not subject to MMR …

xylena_lazarow · March 25

Grega wrote: »

I have noticed that yeah, and considered it a bug due to overwhelming evidence/statements. Well, if it is true, employees have to be educated as support has stated there is no MMR (last week). And if you look at help section in game (today), it also states there that 8v8 is not subject to MMR …

Isn't there a weekly MMR reset for the 8v8? Every Monday I see all these new names and lopsided matches, that effect lessens as the week goes on, weekends get sweaty, then everything resets again. Or I could be imagining this.

Haki_7 · March 25

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 54: Waiting 31 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiBcOqsgarU

Haki_7 · March 26

''After one or two of the four queue options have been replaced by 3-sided BGs, players will be able to choose what they consider to be the superior format.''

baguette_poolish · March 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

every match should be fought until the end, like we used to

Okay like, your choice then to stick around til the bitter end of a match that was decided 14min ago. Are you the sort of player who enjoys playing for 2nd place? Your video is funny just because I have this from exactly the same era:

I'm sure Taugrim (very good player) was staying focused on winning the objective, I have no idea what I was doing, but enough 3s with numbers like this go by, and I start to feel like my performance just doesn't matter. Meanwhile, twice in the past week I rallied my 8v8 team from 180+ down in DM to win, deploying new tactics each one.

It's actually insane how much you overestimate your impact in random matchup 8v8's it discredits any point you're trying to make. "Deploying new tactics each one" what?? lol

8v8's are not and will never be competitive or a "sweat fest" this is the equivalent of playing Stardew Valley and claiming it's a competitive wood chopping game. Out of 10 8v8s, 8 of them will be lobsided.

Thumbless_Bot · March 26

baguette_poolish wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

every match should be fought until the end, like we used to

Okay like, your choice then to stick around til the bitter end of a match that was decided 14min ago. Are you the sort of player who enjoys playing for 2nd place? Your video is funny just because I have this from exactly the same era:

I'm sure Taugrim (very good player) was staying focused on winning the objective, I have no idea what I was doing, but enough 3s with numbers like this go by, and I start to feel like my performance just doesn't matter. Meanwhile, twice in the past week I rallied my 8v8 team from 180+ down in DM to win, deploying new tactics each one.

It's actually insane how much you overestimate your impact in random matchup 8v8's it discredits any point you're trying to make. "Deploying new tactics each one" what?? lol

8v8's are not and will never be competitive or a "sweat fest" this is the equivalent of playing Stardew Valley and claiming it's a competitive wood chopping game. Out of 10 8v8s, 8 of them will be lobsided.

It's not any particular player. It's being a good healer that has an oversized impact on all bgs.

WaywardArgonian · March 26

Yeah healing well does have a considerable impact on 8v8. I solo queue in 8v8 regularly on my healer and I can often make the match a bit more bearable for my team even if a win is out of the question. In order to secure a win, you will still need some damage and if that is lacking, I am just delaying the inevitable. But I'd like to think that people on my team have a bit of a better time not getting completely farmed.

xylena_lazarow · March 26

baguette_poolish wrote: »

It's actually insane how much you overestimate your impact in random matchup 8v8's it discredits any point you're trying to make. "Deploying new tactics each one" what?? lol

If my team comes back from 180+ down and I am the only person making calls in group... ?

If I lead the push, my team follows, and we wipe the whole opposing team... ?

In the 2-sided matchups I can tell whether what I'm doing matters, same way I can tell in Vengeance Cyro that what I am doing does not matter at all. I'm not saying I'm doing this literally every match if that's what you're thinking, and I too have bad matches where I face plant into an 0-3 but my team wins anyway.

Meanwhile you've got other players who want to believe that 3-sided is 4d chess, but have yet to explain how to reconcile the "second place problem" where any given number of players in the lobby are playing a different game from you, including your own teammates. Also like, pretty sure heal stacking was a problem in 3-sided too. When you did finally get into a 12 sweatlord 3 way DM, it would go to timer with the winning side having like 135 points.

Thumbless_Bot · March 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

baguette_poolish wrote: »

It's actually insane how much you overestimate your impact in random matchup 8v8's it discredits any point you're trying to make. "Deploying new tactics each one" what?? lol

If my team comes back from 180+ down and I am the only person making calls in group... ?

If I lead the push, my team follows, and we wipe the whole opposing team... ?

In the 2-sided matchups I can tell whether what I'm doing matters, same way I can tell in Vengeance Cyro that what I am doing does not matter at all. I'm not saying I'm doing this literally every match if that's what you're thinking, and I too have bad matches where I face plant into an 0-3 but my team wins anyway.

Meanwhile you've got other players who want to believe that 3-sided is 4d chess, but have yet to explain how to reconcile the "second place problem" where any given number of players in the lobby are playing a different game from you, including your own teammates. Also like, pretty sure heal stacking was a problem in 3-sided too. When you did finally get into a 12 sweatlord 3 way DM, it would go to timer with the winning side having like 135 points.

Agree. One good player can definitely turn the tide.

And it's 5d chess, not 4.

xylena_lazarow · March 26

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Agree. One good player can definitely turn the tide. And it's 5d chess, not 4.

Okay so explain to me how to solve the "second place problem" then, in which 3s eventually degenerate into 8v4 at the expense of the weakest team. At the beginning of any given match, any given number of players, including on your own team, are prioritizing playing for 2nd place by focusing only the weakest team, or will switch to playing for 2nd place as soon as they feel it's too hard to fight the 1st place team. How do you handle this?