Battlegrounds: Cycle of Self-Destruction

Joy_Division

Haki_7 wrote: »

Three-teams BGs: Limitless possibilities.

Two-teams BGs: Lopsided snoozefest

Green has 4 players who have no idea what they are doing, 1 that does, 1 that kind-of-sort-of-knows, 1 healer, and 1 low damage tank. In short, it's a bad team and a bad comp.

Red has 3 players who have no idea what they are doing, 3 that do, and 2 healers. That is at least a functional team and comp.

Haki_7 wrote: »

Green has 3 players who have no idea what they are doing, 1 that does, 2 that sort-of-kind-of-knows, and 2 healers. That's more competitive than previous Green, but still not good.

Red has 2 players who have no idea what they are doing, 3 that do, 1 hardcore objective player, and 2 healers (one who positions themselves poorly). That is probably about as ideal team as you're going to get.

These matches were over before they began.

There are too many players who are basically just free AP running around the map and just speed bumps for the sweats. There are not enough sweats, so any imbalance between them is going to skew the combat heavily in their favor.

You clearly shouldn;t be playing with so many people who don;t know what they are doing. Is this because the pool of players is so small or is this because ZOS stupidly resets the MMR such that the game does not recognize that you are out of their league?

Either way, because you are a good player, I suspect most of your matches are going to be like this. Because there are so few sweats and so much cannon fodder, your team is much more likely to have more sweats by virtue of you being one, so you're going to spend most of the matches clubbing baby seals.

I played enough 4v4v4 to remember that format having quite a few frustrating mismatches to tell me the format itself does not solve the core problem of a poorly sourced player pool. It just introduces an element of randomness in which sometimes the cannon fodder players would be attacked by 4 players instead of 8 and so might not die as often.

I might be convinced that the old format percentage of mismatches were lower. My instinct, however, is the is more about ZOS's idea that their decision to reset the MMR, in their words, "to give everyone a fresh opportunity on the leaderboards." This is clearly a bad decision, as it just gives the sweats open season to club baby seals and pad the leaderboards. I would respect their leaderboard score a lot more if the points they received came from fighting players of their skill level. Regardless of format, the primarily thing needed for a competitive match is to have players of similar skill fight each other.

I would not be surprised if the EU does have better matches than the American server. My guess is that the EU has a higher population base in the first place and they play more often due to having a much healthier work-leisure schedule than Americans. So their player source pool is not going to have as much cannon fodder and be able to reach the critical number of sweats needed such that it is not as imbalanced as it is on the American server

CatoUnchained

What was wrong with the original version of BG's again?

Markytous

Removing 4v4v4 was a mistake. 8v8 needs too many players to realistically keep matches popping all the time. 4v4 is such a mess that, despite needing less players to pop the queue, hardly anyone participates - seeing the same players rotating between the teams all day is comical. 4v4v4 captured the essence of ESO PVP with the Three Banners theme - it's especially heartbreaking not seeing Storm Lords out there in the Arena anymore. All those maps are gone, too. 8v8 is ballgroups lite, 4v4 is comp sweats city (where the most egregious exploits are abused to exhaustion). 4v4v4 felt fresh all day and you could find matches even during the AM hours of the night. Oh well. Back to the Imperial City with me.

Major_Mangle

Markytous wrote: »

Removing 4v4v4 was a mistake. 8v8 needs too many players to realistically keep matches popping all the time. 4v4 is such a mess that, despite needing less players to pop the queue, hardly anyone participates - seeing the same players rotating between the teams all day is comical. 4v4v4 captured the essence of ESO PVP with the Three Banners theme - it's especially heartbreaking not seeing Storm Lords out there in the Arena anymore. All those maps are gone, too. 8v8 is ballgroups lite, 4v4 is comp sweats city (where the most egregious exploits are abused to exhaustion). 4v4v4 felt fresh all day and you could find matches even during the AM hours of the night. Oh well. Back to the Imperial City with me.

While I can´t speak for any platform than the one I play o (PCEU) claiming 4v4 is "comp sweats city" is so far from any truth from my experience. If we talk about the group queue, ever since they changed the format the amount of actual 4 man premades I´ve ran into is in the single digits (different premades that is). From my experience most players in the group queue are duo´s, and a large majority of those aren´t even geared for PvP (using ESO logs allows you to see what your teammates are using in terms of gear), but most of them are PvE players queueing with a friend for the daily exp bonus. The solo queue 4v4 are mostly healers looking to abuse healing medals for the leaderboards so not much "comp sweat" there if you ask me.

The main problem with the 4v4v4 was the fact that ZOS removed the option to queue for the mode you wanted. I honestly think if ZOS would´ve kept that we wouldn´t have the two team format we´ve today. I personally don´t mind the 8v8 or 4v4 I think they´re fine (even though I would´ve wanted the 4v4 to mainly cater to 4 man premades more to boost that "competitive" atmosphere a bit more), but I still want an option to choose the mode we want to play, and a proper ranking system that is based on something proper rather than medal score and games played (lack of a ranking/mmr system was a problem with the old format as well).

Thumbless_Bot

Tired of arguing the same point. Just give us the option to play the way we want.

Haki_7

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 61: Waiting 29 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://youtu.be/B__OGzbCQcc

DigiAngel

It's pretty bad right now.....from being ported into the 2nd round of a losing deathmatch, to being lvl 2073 and having a level 15 on the team...it's....painful sometimes.

supabicboi

After 21 pages of discussion and years of playing ESO, it's clear that the core issue in BG is the lack of a good ranking system that accurately tiers players. Medal points are useless and don't reflect a player's true capabilities, this is already conclusive, and those say otherwise have their pvp capability egos linked together with those medal points, and have unfortunately never understood what pvp in this game is. those objective points are not rly correlated with wins, losses, and power balance. anyway.

In battlegrounds, the team that excels in their respective roles has a higher chance of winning, regardless of the mode. A team with a strong tank, capable of absorbing damage and drawing attention, and a skilled healer, able to keep their team alive, is just as important as a high-damage dealer.

A decent player needs to meet a minimum threshold in their role, whether it's DPS, healing, or tanking. There's a difference in skill between players, even between players with the same or similar builds and gear. an enjoyable experience is having a system that can identify and separate players into distinct tiers based on their individual skill. This means recognizing top-performing DPS, healers, and tanks, and placing them in a pool of S-tier, A-tier, B-tier players, and so on.

By doing so, the game can then mix and match players from different tiers to create a more balanced matchmaking experience. Of course, perfect balance is impossible in PvP, but being able to win with a slight disadvantage is a great feeling. The current system, however, creates too much disparity and makes the difference in skill level too vast

One way to gauge skill is by looking at performance metrics. For DPS, it's about dealing consistent damage and staying alive. For healers, it's about keeping their team's health topped up and saving them from danger. For tanks, it's about absorbing damage and protecting their team. By looking at the top performers in each role, we can identify the most skilled players. Combine the best DPS, healers, and tanks, and you'll get a high-elo game.

This approach isn't foolproof, but consistently high stats across a player's career can't be attributed to luck alone. It's time to rethink our ranking system and focus on meaningful metrics that reflect player skill in all roles, not just damage output.

if you dont agree with a tier system, go watch Solo Leveling. the players that shine the brightest are usually players that has the dmg output to burst, able to absorb dmg, and sustains themselves well enough, in other words, players that are capable of 1vX.

its loud and clear, some are better than others. and quite frankly, when i get matched with players that are not on my level, i dont even enjoy killing them, there isnt even a challenge to win. i want a game where my skills are tested. it doesnt matter what tier I am in, i want a game where other players being matched in my game also belong in a similar tier as me.

just use a simple tier system zos... look for the avg dmg, heal, tank output. set a ceiling and a floor. and categorize. its just like any other games that have mmr in the system. learn from league of legends if u must. if i am overpowered in B tier meaning I have reached the dmg/heal/dmg taken ceiling of B tier, them move me up to A tier, until I am no longer able to break the ceiling of moving up a rank anymore, then thats where a player of my skill belongs, if better gear gets me to a higher tier, then i belong in that higher tier. i dont bring builds and gear into the discussion, because its even grounds on that aspect how u want to mix and match to fix ur playstyle, all players access overland, crafted, arena, trial gears the same. but numbers dont lie. sure the meta builds might carry you to a certain extent, at least the meta abusers will be matched against other players that are able to deal with meta builds, and not just another regular andy that does not know what is happening. let the andys play with other andys.

4v4, 8v8, 4v4v4, doesnt matter as long as the players matched together are around the same tier. as joy puts it;

There are too many players who are basically just free AP running around the map and just speed bumps for the sweats. There are not enough sweats, so any imbalance between them is going to skew the combat heavily in their favor.

You clearly shouldn;t be playing with so many people who don;t know what they are doing. Is this because the pool of players is so small or is this because ZOS stupidly resets the MMR such that the game does not recognize that you are out of their league?

I played enough 4v4v4 to remember that format having quite a few frustrating mismatches to tell me the format itself does not solve the core problem of a poorly sourced player pool.

the current major issue are matches that would mix up C tier players into a S and A tier game. that C tier player will just be running around trying to stay alive the whole match, that basically means there is no gameplay aside from run for ur life simulator. then some players are sick of feeling abused, and therefore decide to just stay at their spawn point, cuz fr if i felt that helplessly outclassed, knowing getting off my spawnpoint means death and humiliation, why would i leave the platform, better yet, why would i even queue for BGs.
Flip the scenario, place a rly good player into a C tier match, itll be a solo experience of stomping on players not as good as you, not inducing any kind of 'fun' for the C tier players that cant do anything against someone that knows what they are doing and does it well.

Jestir

I honestly feel like the points total needed to win could either be cut down a bit

DigiAngel wrote: »

It's pretty bad right now.....from being ported into the 2nd round of a losing deathmatch, to being lvl 2073 and having a level 15 on the team...it's....painful sometimes.

Players under lvl50 are in a completely separate queue, do you mean CP15?

DigiAngel

Aye CP15

Haki_7

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 62: Waiting 21 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://youtu.be/TcpF2iXg8EY

Haki_7

Three-teams BGs: Limitless possibilities.

Two-teams BGs: Lopsided snoozefest 😪

Haki_7

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 63: Waiting 23 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://youtu.be/79yv7NriCdk

Markytous

Thanks for your continued documentation of the awful new Battlegrounds experience. 4v4v4 needs to come back.

Haki_7

Three-teams BGs: Limitless possibilities.

Two-teams BGs: Lopsided snoozefest 😪

Haki_7

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 64: Waiting 21 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://youtu.be/bs3NgREz-14

Haki_7

Three-teams BGs: Limitless possibilities.

Two-teams BGs: Lopsided snoozefest 😪

Haki_7

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 65: Waiting 20 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://youtu.be/1tuIKtckZCE

Haki_7

Three-teams BGs: Limitless possibilities.

Two-teams BGs: Lopsided snoozefest 😪

AngryNecro

Haki_7 wrote: »

Three-teams BGs:

Is this a topik for bragging about kills? xD
I have some better)



new BG need some fix, but not the ones you're talking about. By the way, if you play on 8x8 without mmr, why are you complaining about lopsided fights and want to replace 4x4 ones that you don't play? xD

Moonspawn

AngryNecro wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Three-teams BGs:

Is this a topik for bragging about kills? xD
I have some better)



new BG need some fix, but not the ones you're talking about. By the way, if you play on 8x8 without mmr, why are you complaining about lopsided fights and want to replace 4x4 ones that you don't play? xD

People claiming to prefer a boring ass 4v4 like the one in your screenshot over a heart-throbbing 3-sided DM is the reason why it's pointless to debate personal taste. Can you keep posting these 4v4's you've been playing? Once a day is fine.

AngryNecro

Moonspawn wrote: »

People claiming to prefer a boring ass 4v4 like the one in your screenshot over a heart-throbbing 3-sided DM is the reason why it's pointless to debate personal taste. Can you keep posting these 4v4's you've been playing? Once a day is fine. [/quote]

heart-throbbing? lol.. why is everyone so slow on this video? Did the dude decide to record this slow, boring fight as an example? The 4x4 fight that you called boring was 3 times faster.

small size of cards, constant combat, no running around, quick match selection. What's boring about that?)
In 4x4, you're literally constantly in battle, and the distance you need to run before that fight is just enough to throw buffs at yourself. In 4x4, you had to constantly run somewhere. What is shown in the video is still a cut. Yes, with one of the most active old maps, but still slicing. Everything is much more dynamic in 4x4. Not to mention the third team, which usually just added unnecessary chaos, which is already present in other pvp segments of the game.
4x4 is literally what the community wanted. Honest, challenging PVP battles with minimal distractions.

I'm surprised that in all these topics on the forum, guys who are not satisfied with 8x8 and they want three-way battles, for some reason, in the end they write that let's remove 4x4 in which they almost do not play. If you hardly play 4x4, then why are you asking to change it? change your pop 8x8.

But in general, I would be glad if 4x4х4 was returned instead of 8x8. This will satisfy all parties and perhaps stop this whining. the main thing is that the 4x4 would not spoil

xylena_lazarow

AngryNecro wrote: »

But in general, I would be glad if 4x4х4 was returned instead of 8x8. This will satisfy all parties and perhaps stop this whining. the main thing is that the 4x4 would not spoil

4v4 flat does not work with random teams. This is why players are turned off by the new BGs.

8v8 is the best new thing they've added in years. The new home of Cyrodiil refugees.

4v4v4 is for players who think 2nd place is winning.

AngryNecro

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

4v4 flat does not work with random teams. This is why players are turned off by the new BGs.
.

well, for some reason everything works for me, and all the problems I encounter in 4x4 are related to flaws and intentional flaws designed to simplify the life of a losing team. I play 8-30 matches a day and the maximum is completely one-sided fights (I die in 10 seconds after rolling dodge from spawn or the other team stops jumping from spawn) these are 4-5 matches out of 30 (on the second day of the mmr reset)

So players are turned off by the new BGs because they can't play 4x4. but 4x4 is implied (at least that's what they said at the update release) as a mode for strong players, it is designed to measure your position in the top. So it won't lose much if players who aren't ready for it leave, maybe it will even get better. If you can persuade ZOS to give me back my main account and the other one too, I will spend time creating a fully detailed tutorial on how to remain a top 4x4 player even on necromancer with any TESO content creator who agrees.

Here's a free tip, learn to play from two self set panels without heavy armor with torc of tonal consistency. This thing will give you the most active and continuous gameplay in TESO. you will have to attack all the time to be in the resource. The screenshot was taken just on it. After such a gameplay, you will automatically never hesitate again + this is the best resource management tutorial. cause 4x4 cannot be played from a single resource now.

AngryNecro

oh ya about the long wait for the match. you need to catch the launch timing. The easiest way is to go into the house with the well immediately after the end of the match, set up a match search and then use the well. if the well is not in my house, then I turn on the match search immediately after launching the teleportation. if everything is done quickly, a match will be found almost immediately. I'm waiting for the first match for up to 7 minutes, the next one for a maximum of a minute.

Haki_7

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 66: Waiting 21 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://youtu.be/4hdr39TKsYg

Haki_7

Three-teams BGs: Limitless possibilities.

Two-teams BGs: Lopsided snoozefest 😪

Major_Mangle

Why don't you post the BG games on PCEU where you participated and it's close and non loopsided? Saw you in several games during the last few days (still playing a sorc healer spamming crit heal medals which inflates your mmr severely, further making the issues you complain about worse) and in most of those games it wasn't anywhere near the loopsided snoozefest you speak off. Or does that not fit into your propaganda/narrative?

Moonspawn

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Why don't you post the BG games on PCEU where you participated and it's close and non loopsided? Saw you in several games during the last few days (still playing a sorc healer spamming crit heal medals which inflates your mmr severely) and in most of those games it wasn't anywhere near the loopsided snoozefest you speak off. Or does that not fit into your propaganda/narrative?

Haki told me he stopped reading the thread when xylena claimed to be a zone general that rallies the team by deploying different tactics every time, which was some 10 pages ago.
I have come to realize that persuading people that 3-sided BGs are superior was a mistake. One that I hope will be avoided from now on. If you want to understand I'd advise you to play as a healer, because they mostly observe the fight. Be on the winning team. Be on the losing team. Take care to pay special attention to the matches you call ''non lopsided'', and open you eyes to what's really happening. Play as a healer until you understand.

AngryNecro

Wow it turns out that this is whining about boring BG from healers lol. So maybe not playing as a healer will make the game more interesting? heallers not need on BG xD

why Haki stopped reading topik and only post hes boring video? Judging by the screenshots, he's a pretty mediocre player, maybe if he had read he would have learned something xD