Battlegrounds: Cycle of Self-Destruction

Haki_7

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

They appear to have just reset mmr. Haki, are you stull getting long queu times today? I am and I queue for both 4v4 and 8v8 and I play on and off throughout the day. My longest queue time probably 15 but usually between 5 and 10. Sometimes they pop immediately, but usually that means getting dumped into a slaughter. Those can be a lot of fun though, especially when you help turn the tide.

When they reset the MMR I get to play with normal queue times for a day or two. Then it's right back to the usual.

WaywardArgonian

Decimus wrote: »

Of course, you'll only be shown cherry picked scoreboards where these people could hide behind the team and no one focused them (could ask a certain person to post a scoreboard from few days ago where someone did focus them and they couldn't survive even in middle of their team)... which is the main reason why these people want 3-way BGs back: it was much easier to 3rd party and personal skill wasn't as relevant.

Would you say this only applies to 4v4 or also 8v8? I played a fair amount of 8v8 solo queues over the past weeks, and in general I found it a lot easier to lose focus as there were more players around and the new 8v8 maps generally lend themselves well to kiting damage. But it could also just be luck of the draw which is why I'm asking.

Haki_7

Bring back the real BGs as a permanent option. Some people would still choose to play whatever this is:



😪😪😪

Decimus

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Of course, you'll only be shown cherry picked scoreboards where these people could hide behind the team and no one focused them (could ask a certain person to post a scoreboard from few days ago where someone did focus them and they couldn't survive even in middle of their team)... which is the main reason why these people want 3-way BGs back: it was much easier to 3rd party and personal skill wasn't as relevant.

Would you say this only applies to 4v4 or also 8v8? I played a fair amount of 8v8 solo queues over the past weeks, and in general I found it a lot easier to lose focus as there were more players around and the new 8v8 maps generally lend themselves well to kiting damage. But it could also just be luck of the draw which is why I'm asking.

I think you're a lot more at the mercy of matchmaking in 4v4, and this is due to the format and small maps. If you get deathmatch and three 20k health squishies in your team it's most likely a loss if opponent team consists of even mediocre skill level players that you'd normally beat in a 1v1 or even a 1v2. This is because your squishies will die a lot faster and then be unable to respawn after 3 deaths, leading to a 1v4 situation with no offensive window.

Same situation in 8v8, you'd just move to a different objective on the big map or go find a sigil... Instantly much more playable.

The 4v4 format could use a lot of changes, as it currently isn't super fun in solo queue.

A team shuffle format like they have in WoW arenas could work super well, as that rewards individual skill and performance more than high rolling the best team.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The first start in all of this, is making gearing characters easier to understand without spreadsheets, and you tube videos.

I guess what I am asking for is a damage calculator built into the character stat window. You change a value, it goes up or it goes down. Easy to understand.

I know it wont happen, balance will never happen. PVP in this game will always be niche.
I just fundamentally had an issue with your comment about the "1%" as I took it that anyone other than the 1% are "scrubs", and to that I vehemehntly disagree for all the reasons I listed.

If I read your comment incorrectly, I apoloigise.

Yeah wasn't my intention at all, and I think even most of the experienced theorycrafters in this game agree that the game could do a better job explaining numbers and how they impact your character.

The 1% was simply a reference to the amount of players that get to the higher echelons of win rate, which is when your perception of "lopsided matches" changes dramatically. This is something that is also very true in every other team vs team game...

You can present a situation to a 1300 MMR player and it'll feel impossible, "lopsided" even, but if you give the same problem to a 2000 MMR one they'll not just solve it, but make it look easy.

This is the heart of a lot of these complaints here... and why some people want their 3-way BGs back - it's just adversity to a skill based environment.

And that's actually fine, but here's the thing: game already offers that in the form of Cyrodiil & IC. People can outnumber and 3rd party and make the game as easy as they want over there.

Pixiepumpkin

Decimus wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Of course, you'll only be shown cherry picked scoreboards where these people could hide behind the team and no one focused them (could ask a certain person to post a scoreboard from few days ago where someone did focus them and they couldn't survive even in middle of their team)... which is the main reason why these people want 3-way BGs back: it was much easier to 3rd party and personal skill wasn't as relevant.

Would you say this only applies to 4v4 or also 8v8? I played a fair amount of 8v8 solo queues over the past weeks, and in general I found it a lot easier to lose focus as there were more players around and the new 8v8 maps generally lend themselves well to kiting damage. But it could also just be luck of the draw which is why I'm asking.

I think you're a lot more at the mercy of matchmaking in 4v4, and this is due to the format and small maps. If you get deathmatch and three 20k health squishies in your team it's most likely a loss if opponent team consists of even mediocre skill level players that you'd normally beat in a 1v1 or even a 1v2. This is because your squishies will die a lot faster and then be unable to respawn after 3 deaths, leading to a 1v4 situation with no offensive window.

Same situation in 8v8, you'd just move to a different objective on the big map or go find a sigil... Instantly much more playable.

The 4v4 format could use a lot of changes, as it currently isn't super fun in solo queue.

A team shuffle format like they have in WoW arenas could work super well, as that rewards individual skill and performance more than high rolling the best team.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The first start in all of this, is making gearing characters easier to understand without spreadsheets, and you tube videos.

I guess what I am asking for is a damage calculator built into the character stat window. You change a value, it goes up or it goes down. Easy to understand.

I know it wont happen, balance will never happen. PVP in this game will always be niche.
I just fundamentally had an issue with your comment about the "1%" as I took it that anyone other than the 1% are "scrubs", and to that I vehemehntly disagree for all the reasons I listed.

If I read your comment incorrectly, I apoloigise.

Yeah wasn't my intention at all, and I think even most of the experienced theorycrafters in this game agree that the game could do a better job explaining numbers and how they impact your character.

The 1% was simply a reference to the amount of players that get to the higher echelons of win rate, which is when your perception of "lopsided matches" changes dramatically. This is something that is also very true in every other team vs team game...

You can present a situation to a 1300 MMR player and it'll feel impossible, "lopsided" even, but if you give the same problem to a 2000 MMR one they'll not just solve it, but make it look easy.

This is the heart of a lot of these complaints here... and why some people want their 3-way BGs back - it's just adversity to a skill based environment.

And that's actually fine, but here's the thing: game already offers that in the form of Cyrodiil & IC. People can outnumber and 3rd party and make the game as easy as they want over there.

Agreed that people can goto Cyro or Sewers for their RvRvR gameplay. Battlegrounds, at least for my wife and I are much more fun in the pvp format (not pvpvp/rvrvr).

I tried cyro on a number of occasions, but it just felt boring to me. I think part of it is that the PVP in cyro feels like...I am not sure how to explain this, but it feels separate from the Elder Scrolls universe.

For example. I used to LOVE Alterac Valley in WoW. I was fighting for the Frost Wolves, we had objectives to do (in vanilla, later on it became a boring 6 minute race). But it felt like it was part of the WoW universe and I was playing inside that universe.

Cryo is completely washed of that feeling, and frankly so are battlegrounds. Its in part why ESO PvP for me is a means to an end (I really just want some of the cosmetics).

I miss the days of fighitng for a faction, that faction having a real meaning, and overall everyone having faction pride.

Haki_7

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 50: Waiting 32 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHF0CpQXqIY

xylena_lazarow

Haki_7 wrote: »

Bring back the real BGs

So instead of a coherent case for bringing back 3-sided, you continue to cherry pick and trash 2-sided as "fake" BGs. This is not proof of anything, other than the fact that Haki does not like 2-sided BGs. Should I post more close 2s and lopsided 3s? Sure why not, I can cherry pick "proof" for my case just as well. Behold!





Oh and 2-sided are way more real than 3-sided. Way realer, and there's no way to prove otherwise!

tomofhyrule

Haki_7 wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

They appear to have just reset mmr. Haki, are you stull getting long queu times today? I am and I queue for both 4v4 and 8v8 and I play on and off throughout the day. My longest queue time probably 15 but usually between 5 and 10. Sometimes they pop immediately, but usually that means getting dumped into a slaughter. Those can be a lot of fun though, especially when you help turn the tide.

When they reset the MMR I get to play with normal queue times for a day or two. Then it's right back to the usual.

Wait - hold on. You have normal queue times for a bit once MMR is reset and then you get long queues?

This obviously means that you very quickly get to the top of the MMR charts, and then it can't get matches for your MMR anymore. That's the only explanation.

Have you tried going in with a different character? MMR is character-based, so you may see your queue times reset then.

Also, as all of the experienced PvP players have said, MMR is based on medal score. Yes, we all know ZOS has said it's not... and yet players have proven that it is. We also know that not everyone at ZOS knows everything about every facet of the game - the whole BG stream debacle was because a developer didn't know what a certain set mechanic was, which was one that has been complained about for years by players. Heck, I know that one of the main addon authors has actually explained to the devs how certain features of their own game works!

So yes, the problem is you are too good at PvP - significantly better than others such that the game literally cannot match you with anyone. You may instead want to do the ranked matches, since the higher MMR players would prefer to be in that arena.

Haki_7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Bring back the real BGs

So instead of a coherent case for bringing back 3-sided, you continue to cherry pick and trash 2-sided as "fake" BGs. This is not proof of anything, other than the fact that Haki does not like 2-sided BGs. Should I post more close 2s and lopsided 3s? Sure why not, I can cherry pick "proof" for my case just as well. Behold!





Oh and 2-sided are way more real than 3-sided. Way realer, and there's no way to prove otherwise!

Granting players the right to choose is the ''coherent case''. My personal preference is irrelevant.

''Let's all just forget about it, believe that the new BGs are amazing, and try to muster the basic human decency to recognize that one or two of the four queue options available could easily make way for 3-sided BGs.''

xylena_lazarow

Haki_7 wrote: »

one or two of the four queue options available could easily make way for 3-sided BGs

You could've just said that up front instead of 18 pages of salt and trashing 2-sided.

I've said myself that 4v4 random is inherently too volatile and should be replaced.

Don't you dare touch the 8v8 solo unless it's to improve it, 8v8 solo is the only reason I still log in.

xylena_lazarow

tomofhyrule wrote: »

So yes, the problem is you are too good at PvP - significantly better than others such that the game literally cannot match you with anyone. You may instead want to do the ranked matches, since the higher MMR players would prefer to be in that arena.

Also that Haki plays a healer/support and crit heal medals are bugged with an extra 0 on the end, artificially inflating healing scores. I regularly see Haki (and other top healers) over 10k on the board, top DD players rarely break 5k.

Haki_7

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

They appear to have just reset mmr. Haki, are you stull getting long queu times today? I am and I queue for both 4v4 and 8v8 and I play on and off throughout the day. My longest queue time probably 15 but usually between 5 and 10. Sometimes they pop immediately, but usually that means getting dumped into a slaughter. Those can be a lot of fun though, especially when you help turn the tide.

When they reset the MMR I get to play with normal queue times for a day or two. Then it's right back to the usual.

Wait - hold on. You have normal queue times for a bit once MMR is reset and then you get long queues?

This obviously means that you very quickly get to the top of the MMR charts, and then it can't get matches for your MMR anymore. That's the only explanation.

Have you tried going in with a different character? MMR is character-based, so you may see your queue times reset then.

Also, as all of the experienced PvP players have said, MMR is based on medal score. Yes, we all know ZOS has said it's not... and yet players have proven that it is. We also know that not everyone at ZOS knows everything about every facet of the game - the whole BG stream debacle was because a developer didn't know what a certain set mechanic was, which was one that has been complained about for years by players. Heck, I know that one of the main addon authors has actually explained to the devs how certain features of their own game works!

So yes, the problem is you are too good at PvP - significantly better than others such that the game literally cannot match you with anyone. You may instead want to do the ranked matches, since the higher MMR players would prefer to be in that arena.

I'm lowbie and the team carries me. I believe that if they reduced the critical heal medal to 20 I wouldn't be kept out of matches anymore, but I guess we'll never know for sure.

Thumbless_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

one or two of the four queue options available could easily make way for 3-sided BGs

You could've just said that up front instead of 18 pages of salt and trashing 2-sided.

I've said myself that 4v4 random is inherently too volatile and should be replaced.

Don't you dare touch the 8v8 solo unless it's to improve it, 8v8 solo is the only reason I still log in.

Fix mmr...

We actually somewhat agree on this... 8v8 is not that bad... the sigils are fun and the maps are cool... maybe Ewok Village is a big too big and imbalance is still greater than 4v4v4, but whatever.

4v4 is really where most of my ire sits and where it has always sat. It's so bad. So... so bad..

Sure, we can find examples of each type being great or not great, but we've all had what, six months to process these new bgs and have had consistent experience over time, with few outliers. Most experiences say 4v4 is a dumpster fire in the middle of Canal street, which already smells like warm garbage.

I'd prefer competitive 8v8 and 4v4v4 as well as casual for each. However, i am sure there are a significant number of players that actually enjoy 4v4, so that shouldn't be removed now that it has been developed and added, imho.

The arguments against keeping formats are not that strong. It's not like they are actively supporting them once they are fully baked. Ultimately this is a commercial decision for zos.
Also, if the queue times are long, so what? At least people who log in will get to play the game they want to play, no matter how good or bad they are.

Fix mmr, make it based on KDA

Edit: in case I didn't mention it above, fix mmr.

Haki_7

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 51: Waiting 22 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hzdgsIacrs

Haki_7

In 3-sided BGs identifying the optimal target order marked the beginning of the fight. In 2-sided BGs it marks its end 😪😪😪

xylena_lazarow

Haki_7 wrote: »

In 3-sided BGs identifying the optimal target order marked the beginning of the fight. In 2-sided BGs it marks its end

Spoken like someone who doesn't main DD spec.

Stacked teams aside, if I don't focus the right guy, my team loses the objective, or falls behind on kills, because their sweatlord cross shield DD player was wasting time and opportunity on an inefficient target, like taking too much time to kill the tanky guy, or being out of position because she just had to kill the irrelevant squishy guy. It's often on me to charge in first and lead the push, there's a lot that goes into the positioning, timing, and target selection every single time.

Your continued cherry picking and dismissive attitude shows that you don't even want to try to appreciate or understand the strat that goes into 2-sided. I've rallied my team from far behind to make the score 500-300 instead of 500-0 and all had fun, maybe you could try that yourself? Meanwhile in 3-sided, your perfect strat can be undone for no reason if say, my team randomly decides to stop caring about the score, let the 1st place team pull away, and 8v4 you instead.

Odds are nobody would even notice because there's like single digits of players that actually understand multifaction target prioritization. If my teammates in a random 3-sided are focusing the incorrect target, politely asking them to switch strat is more likely to have them fighting me in group chat, than have them fighting the correct target.

Haki_7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

In 3-sided BGs identifying the optimal target order marked the beginning of the fight. In 2-sided BGs it marks its end

Spoken like someone who doesn't main DD spec.

Stacked teams aside, if I don't focus the right guy, my team loses the objective, or falls behind on kills, because their sweatlord cross shield DD player was wasting time and opportunity on an inefficient target, like taking too much time to kill the tanky guy, or being out of position because she just had to kill the irrelevant squishy guy. It's often on me to charge in first and lead the push, there's a lot that goes into the positioning, timing, and target selection every single time.

Your continued cherry picking and dismissive attitude shows that you don't even want to try to appreciate or understand the strat that goes into 2-sided. I've rallied my team from far behind to make the score 500-300 instead of 500-0 and all had fun, maybe you could try that yourself? Meanwhile in 3-sided, your perfect strat can be undone for no reason if say, my team randomly decides to stop caring about the score, let the 1st place team pull away, and 8v4 you instead.

Odds are nobody would even notice because there's like single digits of players that actually understand multifaction target prioritization. If my teammates in a random 3-sided are focusing the incorrect target, politely asking them to switch strat is more likely to have them fighting me in group chat, than have them fighting the correct target.

One of the very few things everyone seems to agree is this:

''In 2-sided the optimal target order almost never reaches BG regulars, especially in 8v8. ''

I have said it. @Moonspawn has said it. Even @Decimus has said it multiple times in between his bouts of stating that I want to third party and steal kills as a healer without an execute. Yet you keep insisting that you wade through entire teams in pursuit of PVPers, which are the targets least likely to die. If that's true I'm happy for you but... are you sure these players you're targeting are even looking your way?

xylena_lazarow

Haki_7 wrote: »

Yet you keep insisting that you wade through entire teams in pursuit of PVPers, which are the targets least likely to die. If that's true I'm happy for you but... are you sure these players you're targeting are even looking your way?

If there's one sweatlord obviously carrying the opposing team, going after that player probably leads to an easy win. If there's a good player on some cheese build like RoA or whatever ranged Sorc, I'm going to want to pressure them before they can dump their busted gimmick on me at a bad time. If a healer gets isolated from the group, I'm going to try to make sure that healer won't make it back in time to matter, if they can even survive me (gotta love no-cp for this).

If I can score easy kill(s) blindsiding opponents, of course I will. I do take special pleasure in looking an opponent in the eye before killing them, or seeing them turn and run the hell away (even if it's only because I'm an inefficient target). I've gone after you in BGs, but a tanky healer with a body blocking pet and teleport spam... not many good chances.

If I can force the 1v1 against someone good without detriment to my team, I generally will. Sometimes repeated focus will get them on tilt, playing worse than they should, effectively taking them out of the match.

You can do this in 3-sided too, and it's great as long as you have 12 players playing the same game, but you almost never do. The way it incentivized 2nd place for rewards made 8v4'ing 3rd place "optimal" for many players, even if it gave them zero chance of finishing in 1st.

Thumbless_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

In 3-sided BGs identifying the optimal target order marked the beginning of the fight. In 2-sided BGs it marks its end

Your continued cherry picking and dismissive attitude shows that you don't even want to try to appreciate or understand the strat that goes into 2-sided. I've rallied my team from far behind to make the score 500-300 instead of 500-0 and all had fun.

Same can be said for the lack of appreciation of 3 sided. Literally every word.

xylena_lazarow

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Same can be said for the lack of appreciation of 3 sided. Literally every word.

There are far too few players who understand dynamic multifaction target prioritization for finishing 1st, and far too many who saw finishing 2nd in an 8v4 as the optimal path to their daily rewards. Maybe instead of trashing 2s, make another thread talking about the depth of strats in 3s, and how you're supposed to get around the 2nd place problem.

Haki_7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Same can be said for the lack of appreciation of 3 sided. Literally every word.

There are far too few players who understand dynamic multifaction target prioritization for finishing 1st, and far too many who saw finishing 2nd in an 8v4 as the optimal path to their daily rewards. Maybe instead of trashing 2s, make another thread talking about the depth of strats in 3s, and how you're supposed to get around the 2nd place problem.

Don't you want these lopsided BGs to be balanced?

xylena_lazarow

Haki_7 wrote: »

Don't you want these lopsided BGs to be balanced?

Dunno what you mean, 2s look fine to me.



Unlike all those other cherry picked examples, this one is absolute proof!

Haki_7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Don't you want these lopsided BGs to be balanced?

Dunno what you mean, 2s look fine to me.



Unlike all those other cherry picked examples, this one is absolute proof!

Don't worry. I promise I'll keep reminding everyone of the game-breaking problems affecting Battlegrounds until they are fixed. Please send gold as thanks.

Calastir

Haki_7 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Don't you want these lopsided BGs to be balanced?

Dunno what you mean, 2s look fine to me.



Unlike all those other cherry picked examples, this one is absolute proof!

Don't worry. I promise I'll keep reminding everyone of the game-breaking problems affecting Battlegrounds until they are fixed. Please send gold as thanks.

And the fact that many problems in this game have never been fixed does not deter you?

huskandhunger

😮

huskandhunger

I miss the old 3-team format too. Some elements of the 2-team format are fun like the chaos balls and some of the new maps, both forms may live next to each other and consolidate certain queues to delight both sides of the player base and create maximal enjoyment of the battlegrounds pvp experience. ⚔️ ☺️ 👍

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin , please bring back the beloved 3-team mode to keep it alongside the current version, it's something we enjoyed all this time and was a meaningful part of this game's history and many players' lives

xylena_lazarow

Haki_7 wrote: »

Don't worry. I promise I'll keep reminding everyone of the game-breaking problems affecting Battlegrounds until they are fixed. Please send gold as thanks.

I can keep posting too, just in case anyone forgets that these problems have existed forever.



This one is from 2019. Lopsided BGs were not suddenly invented last year.

licenturion

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Don't worry. I promise I'll keep reminding everyone of the game-breaking problems affecting Battlegrounds until they are fixed. Please send gold as thanks.

I can keep posting too, just in case anyone forgets that these problems have existed forever.
This one is from 2019. Lopsided BGs were not suddenly invented last year.

This is basically in every PvP game these days. I play also a lot of Overwatch and Marvel Rivals and matchmaking is as lopsided there most of the time. In most games you can predict within 30 seconds how the next 5 minutes will go.

Haki_7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Don't worry. I promise I'll keep reminding everyone of the game-breaking problems affecting Battlegrounds until they are fixed. Please send gold as thanks.

I can keep posting too, just in case anyone forgets that these problems have existed forever.



This one is from 2019. Lopsided BGs were not suddenly invented last year.

Post with damage and healing so I can balance them in simple and tangible ways.

Thumbless_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Same can be said for the lack of appreciation of 3 sided. Literally every word.

There are far too few players who understand dynamic multifaction target prioritization for finishing 1st, and far too many who saw finishing 2nd in an 8v4 as the optimal path to their daily rewards. Maybe instead of trashing 2s, make another thread talking about the depth of strats in 3s, and how you're supposed to get around the 2nd place problem.

This response is sideways. Nothing that you have said above changes the fact that you are the pot calling the kettle black. Your response only reinforces it. I mean, you are literally doing what you are accusing someone else of doing. It's odd.

At least you've admitted two sided is simplistic relative to three. Progress.... i agree though. Fewer people understand the complexities of 4v4v4. It's chess vs checkers...