Battlegrounds: Cycle of Self-Destruction

xylena_lazarow · March 14

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

[snip] You've shown your stats, you're the outlier. Congratulations on even getting matches.

Who are you talking to?

I've got a huge pile of old screenshots of me going 19-0 or whatever in lopsided 3-sided matches if you want.

[edited to remove quote]

Pixiepumpkin · March 14

Jestir wrote: »

I feel like "seel clubbing" was far worse in 4x4x4

One team would be absolutely focused and slaughtered and there was absolutely no chance to rally and fight back with randoms

8x8 has the issue as well but it's usually from people giving up after getting smack down in the first minute

And the fact that some pvp guilds are solo queing as a group making the solo queue in reality solo vs pre-made.

That is the biggest issue I have seen. Even just 4 can make a massive change.

Also stealth bombers. Frankly that playstyle needs to go.

Haki_7 · March 14

Moonspawn wrote: »

Let's all just forget about it, believe that the new BGs are amazing, and try to muster the basic human decency to recognize that one or two of the four queue options available could easily make way for 3-sided BGs.

Let us hold hands, wish for the return of 3-teams BGs and pray for this hell to be undone:

Haki_7 · March 15

Bring back the real BGs

😪😪😪😪

Chrisilis · March 15

Here is the Dev answer to the question I asked in the Q&A

Q. Given the feedback regarding the recent changes to Battlegrounds and the fact that many players have expressed a desire for the three team 4v4v4 format to be reinstated as an option, in addition to 4v4 and 8v8, will 4v4v4 be reinstated? - Chrisilis

A. Not everyone wants just three-sided Battlegrounds. Some of our players do, and some don’t, and it’s okay to want and prefer different things. We’ve seen BG participation go up overall since the change to two-sided teams.
We hear the feedback, though, that some players would like to do the three-sided Battlegrounds again, so we're looking at doing special BG weekends/events that bring that mode back regularly. Stay tuned for more info!

First of all, not every wants just two-sided Battlegrounds. Some of your players do, and some don't.

I'm sure participation is up but I wonder if the same can be said for satisfaction.

Do you hear the feedback? Really? Have you read THIS thread? If you did maybe you would have actually answered the question. The question was not can we have 4v4v4 back and get rid of two team. The question asked was for 4v4v4 to be reinstated as an option, in addition to 4v4 and 8v8
In addition to. As in, also. As in queues for 4v4, 8v8 and 4v4v4 to all exist together, at the same time, simultaneously. Crazy right? The idea of making everybody happy and giving everybody what they want is just nuts. Unfathomable!

I've been making an effort to like two team and would be lying if I said they hadn't grown on me somewhat. 8v8 Chaosball is especially fun with two team and DM isn't bad either. The other three games were better in 4v4v4 imo.

Why can't we have both? And don't say population, unless ZoS were to give out actual pop numbers everybody is just guessing. And per the Dev feedback, We’ve seen BG participation go up overall since the change to two-sided teams.
Giving your players what they want and adding in a greater variety of pvp game choices doesn't seem that nuts to me. At this point it might drive participation even more, drawing people back in who moved on when three team was...decommissioned. Please consider adding a permanent 4v4v4 option back.

In any case, when do we get our first regularly scheduled three team event? Hopefully soon.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Kevin

Thumbless_Bot · March 15

Chrisilis wrote: »

Here is the Dev answer to the question I asked in the Q&A

Q. Given the feedback regarding the recent changes to Battlegrounds and the fact that many players have expressed a desire for the three team 4v4v4 format to be reinstated as an option, in addition to 4v4 and 8v8, will 4v4v4 be reinstated? - Chrisilis

A. Not everyone wants just three-sided Battlegrounds. Some of our players do, and some don’t, and it’s okay to want and prefer different things. We’ve seen BG participation go up overall since the change to two-sided teams.
We hear the feedback, though, that some players would like to do the three-sided Battlegrounds again, so we're looking at doing special BG weekends/events that bring that mode back regularly. Stay tuned for more info!

First of all, not every wants just two-sided Battlegrounds. Some of your players do, and some don't.

I'm sure participation is up but I wonder if the same can be said for satisfaction.

Do you hear the feedback? Really? Have you read THIS thread? If you did maybe you would have actually answered the question. The question was not can we have 4v4v4 back and get rid of two team. The question asked was for 4v4v4 to be reinstated as an option, in addition to 4v4 and 8v8 In addition to. As in, also. As in queues for 4v4, 8v8 and 4v4v4 to all exist together, at the same time, simultaneously. Crazy right? The idea of making everybody happy and giving everybody what they want is just nuts. Unfathomable!

I've been making an effort to like two team and would be lying if I said they hadn't grown on me somewhat. 8v8 Chaosball is especially fun with two team and DM isn't bad either. The other three games were better in 4v4v4 imo.

Why can't we have both? And don't say population, unless ZoS were to give out actual pop numbers everybody is just guessing. And per the Dev feedback, We’ve seen BG participation go up overall since the change to two-sided teams.
Giving your players what they want and adding in a greater variety of pvp game choices doesn't seem that nuts to me. At this point it might drive participation even more, drawing people back in who moved on when three team was...decommissioned. Please consider adding a permanent 4v4v4 option back.

In any case, when do we get our first regularly scheduled three team event? Hopefully soon.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Kevin

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668202/why-remove-a-functioning-part-of-the-game-bgs#latest

This was five months ago.

Also, population could be up due to a variety of things including rewards, advertisements by zos or more people enjoy bgs now.

One could say they have been taking mass transit more lately, but it's because their transmission blew on their car and they can't pay to fix it. They still have to get to work.

Avran_Sylt · March 15

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

[snip] You've shown your stats, you're the outlier. Congratulations on even getting matches.

Who are you talking to?

I've got a huge pile of old screenshots of me going 19-0 or whatever in lopsided 3-sided matches if you want.

Haki. The guy consistently bumping the thread while simultaneously complaining about queue times and lopsided matches.

I get at most 2 minute queues during prime-time NA, I'm certainly not the great player and I'm a glass cannon so my MMR typically is more in line with a general audience. If they're consistently getting 20min queues and lopsided matches, that means they're a statistical outlier and are getting pity matches through loosening of MMR restrictions as they wait in queue for longer and longer durations.

With a stricter MMR that would give them "fun matches", they'd probably be waiting even longer.

If the reason they're getting long wait times is a population size issue for their choice of play-period and server, that's not something that ZoS can fix overnight (and partly something out of their control), and something which they (Haki) themselves are contributing to exacerbating by being an enabler of those lopsided matches and possible souring of sentiment of some that they stomp.

Suffering from success IG. Good for them. But at this point their issues are a product of their own behavior. And I do not believe they lack introspection on the matter, [snip] Or, are just cherry-picking matches when in reality these "outliers" they post, are just that.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Decimus · March 15

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

[snip] You've shown your stats, you're the outlier. Congratulations on even getting matches.

Who are you talking to?

I've got a huge pile of old screenshots of me going 19-0 or whatever in lopsided 3-sided matches if you want.

Haki. The guy consistently bumping the thread while simultaneously complaining about queue times and lopsided matches.

I get at most 2 minute queues during prime-time NA, I'm certainly not the great player and I'm a glass cannon so my MMR typically is more in line with a general audience. If they're consistently getting 20min queues and lopsided matches, that means they're a statistical outlier and are getting pity matches through loosening of MMR restrictions as they wait in queue for longer and longer durations.

With a stricter MMR that would give them "fun matches", they'd probably be waiting even longer.

If the reason they're getting long wait times is a population size issue for their choice of play-period and server, that's not something that ZoS can fix overnight (and partly something out of their control), and something which they (Haki) themselves are contributing to exacerbating by being an enabler of those lopsided matches and possible souring of sentiment of some that they stomp.

Suffering from success IG. Good for them. But at this point their issues are a product of their own behavior. And I do not believe they lack introspection on the matter, and as such, are just stroking their own ego. Or, are just cherry-picking matches when in reality these "outliers" they post, are just that.

Having played against some people posting in this thread... success is the last thing they're suffering from. They're like deer in headlights when someone is attacking them in game, completely unable to grasp basic concepts of how to keep themselves alive, counter-burst etc

The reason some people are getting long queues is because they only play one character and accumulate a lot of medal score each match by spamming Critical Heal medals (any heal over 7500 gets you 100 points in deathmatches & in flag games I believe it's any heal over 5k on a flag), mistakenly believing that medal score matters or that anyone cares about it while going extremely negative KDR in said matches.

Of course, you'll only be shown cherry picked scoreboards where these people could hide behind the team and no one focused them (could ask a certain person to post a scoreboard from few days ago where someone did focus them and they couldn't survive even in middle of their team)... which is the main reason why these people want 3-way BGs back: it was much easier to 3rd party and personal skill wasn't as relevant.

It's also wild to read people complain about "lopsided battlegrounds" when they high roll the team and win... in most competitive team oriented games (League, CS, Valorant etc etc) people would be ecstatic to be winning and climbing rankings (i.e. win rate). Of course, this is only the case *if* they're actually winning - I think a lot of people complaining about team vs team do so because they cannot personally convert a losing team/position into a winning one and wind up with a win rate very close to 50% (or less).

[edited to remove quote]

xylena_lazarow · March 15

if we're gonna cherry pick lopsided matches... like what even was this

Haki_7 · March 15

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

[snip] You've shown your stats, you're the outlier. Congratulations on even getting matches.

Who are you talking to?

I've got a huge pile of old screenshots of me going 19-0 or whatever in lopsided 3-sided matches if you want.

Haki. The guy consistently bumping the thread while simultaneously complaining about queue times and lopsided matches.

I get at most 2 minute queues during prime-time NA, I'm certainly not the great player and I'm a glass cannon so my MMR typically is more in line with a general audience. If they're consistently getting 20min queues and lopsided matches, that means they're a statistical outlier and are getting pity matches through loosening of MMR restrictions as they wait in queue for longer and longer durations.

With a stricter MMR that would give them "fun matches", they'd probably be waiting even longer.

If the reason they're getting long wait times is a population size issue for their choice of play-period and server, that's not something that ZoS can fix overnight (and partly something out of their control), and something which they (Haki) themselves are contributing to exacerbating by being an enabler of those lopsided matches and possible souring of sentiment of some that they stomp.

Suffering from success IG. Good for them. But at this point their issues are a product of their own behavior. And I do not believe they lack introspection on the matter, [snip] Or, are just cherry-picking matches when in reality these "outliers" they post, are just that.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Original post:

''Balanced matches are the one thing that could draw in newcomers to become interested in PVP itself (not just the daily). Unfortunately what we have right now is the complete opposite. Even with the increased rewards, we're currently experiencing a cycle of self-destruction that starts with lopsided matches, leading to fewer players and increased queue times.''

I am providing evidence that the new BGs are lopsided and that my queue times remain unacceptable. I obviously can't stop until both these game-breaking problems are solved, which will only happen with the return of 3-sided BGs.

xylena_lazarow · March 15

Haki_7 wrote: »

I am providing evidence that the new BGs are lopsided and that my queue times remain unacceptable.

Counterpoint: this was 2018 so 3-sided BGs have been even more lopsided for longer!

Also I just had a 2-sided queue pop in like 30 seconds. Disproven!

Moonspawn · March 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

I am providing evidence that the new BGs are lopsided and that my queue times remain unacceptable.

Counterpoint: this was 2018 so 3-sided BGs have been even more lopsided for longer!

Also I just had a 2-sided queue pop in like 30 seconds. Disproven!

You not having the game-breaking problem of long queue times doesn't prove it doesn't exist.

Would you like me to balance that 3-sided BG for you?

Moonspawn · March 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

if we're gonna cherry pick lopsided matches... like what even was this

I can only properly balance the match if I can see everyone's damage and healing.

xylena_lazarow · March 16

Moonspawn wrote: »

You not having the game-breaking problem of long queue times doesn't prove it doesn't exist.

Yes that was the joke, since Haki continues cherry picking to try to "prove" that 2-sided is bad.

Haki_7 · March 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

You not having the game-breaking problem of long queue times doesn't prove it doesn't exist.

Yes that was the joke, since Haki continues cherry picking to try to "prove" that 2-sided is bad.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that 2-sided BGs are ''bad''. Once 3-sided BGs are back, players will choose what they consider ''good'' on their own.

Decimus · March 16

Haki_7 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

You not having the game-breaking problem of long queue times doesn't prove it doesn't exist.

Yes that was the joke, since Haki continues cherry picking to try to "prove" that 2-sided is bad.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that 2-sided BGs are ''bad''. Once 3-sided BGs are back, players will choose what they consider ''good'' on their own.

Yes, I'm sure if you spam the forums enough with pointless scoreboards and videos the developers will do exactly what you (and very few others) want. Because you are so important.

Isn't that how it works?

xylena_lazarow · March 16

Haki_7 wrote: »

I'm not trying to convince anyone that 2-sided BGs are ''bad''. Once 3-sided BGs are back, players will choose what they consider ''good'' on their own.

So why all this cherry picking of lopsided 2s and long Qs then? If that was your goal you could've just said "I miss 3-sided BGs because I found them fun, post your fun 3-sided experiences here" but instead you call 2-sided "fake" BGs.

Haki_7 · March 16

Decimus wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

You not having the game-breaking problem of long queue times doesn't prove it doesn't exist.

Yes that was the joke, since Haki continues cherry picking to try to "prove" that 2-sided is bad.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that 2-sided BGs are ''bad''. Once 3-sided BGs are back, players will choose what they consider ''good'' on their own.

Yes, I'm sure if you spam the forums enough with pointless scoreboards and videos the developers will do exactly what you (and very few others) want. Because you are so important.

Isn't that how it works?

Gotta make sure these game-breaking problems aren't forgotten. I am trying to solve what I can on my own though. Despite being 9,579 km away from the server, I'm leveling a character on EU to see if its the same over there. My build isn't complete yet, but even with no monster set, no major sorcery, no major resolve and pve mundus stone (to reduce the healing) I'm already getting some queues above 10 minutes. Look:

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 49: Waiting 23 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/EU)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WzcryXJyQ

Decimus · March 16

Haki_7 wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

You not having the game-breaking problem of long queue times doesn't prove it doesn't exist.

Yes that was the joke, since Haki continues cherry picking to try to "prove" that 2-sided is bad.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that 2-sided BGs are ''bad''. Once 3-sided BGs are back, players will choose what they consider ''good'' on their own.

Yes, I'm sure if you spam the forums enough with pointless scoreboards and videos the developers will do exactly what you (and very few others) want. Because you are so important.

Isn't that how it works?

Gotta make sure these game-breaking problems aren't forgotten. I am trying to solve what I can on my own though. Despite being 9,579 km away from the server, I'm leveling a character on EU to see if its the same over there. My build isn't complete yet, but even with no monster set, no major sorcery, no major resolve and pve mundus stone (to reduce the healing) I'm already getting some queues above 10 minutes. Look:

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 49: Waiting 23 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/EU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WzcryXJyQ

At the risk of repeating myself, that is a you problem... not an universal one - nor is it tied to the format of the battlegrounds.

If someone plays only one character and spams burst heals to get some meaningless medals and as a result gets a longer queue time since the game considers your average score per BG before matching you and "lopsided BGs" because the build is entirely team dependent and cannot carry... that sounds like a very fixable problem to me.

Haki_7 · March 16

Decimus wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

You not having the game-breaking problem of long queue times doesn't prove it doesn't exist.

Yes that was the joke, since Haki continues cherry picking to try to "prove" that 2-sided is bad.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that 2-sided BGs are ''bad''. Once 3-sided BGs are back, players will choose what they consider ''good'' on their own.

Yes, I'm sure if you spam the forums enough with pointless scoreboards and videos the developers will do exactly what you (and very few others) want. Because you are so important.

Isn't that how it works?

Gotta make sure these game-breaking problems aren't forgotten. I am trying to solve what I can on my own though. Despite being 9,579 km away from the server, I'm leveling a character on EU to see if its the same over there. My build isn't complete yet, but even with no monster set, no major sorcery, no major resolve and pve mundus stone (to reduce the healing) I'm already getting some queues above 10 minutes. Look:

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 49: Waiting 23 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/EU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WzcryXJyQ

At the risk of repeating myself, that is a you problem... not an universal one - nor is it tied to the format of the battlegrounds.

If someone plays only one character and spams burst heals to get some meaningless medals and as a result gets a longer queue time since the game considers your average score per BG before matching you and "lopsided BGs" because the build is entirely team dependent and cannot carry... that sounds like a very fixable problem to me.

Fixable how?

Decimus · March 16

Haki_7 wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

You not having the game-breaking problem of long queue times doesn't prove it doesn't exist.

Yes that was the joke, since Haki continues cherry picking to try to "prove" that 2-sided is bad.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that 2-sided BGs are ''bad''. Once 3-sided BGs are back, players will choose what they consider ''good'' on their own.

Yes, I'm sure if you spam the forums enough with pointless scoreboards and videos the developers will do exactly what you (and very few others) want. Because you are so important.

Isn't that how it works?

Gotta make sure these game-breaking problems aren't forgotten. I am trying to solve what I can on my own though. Despite being 9,579 km away from the server, I'm leveling a character on EU to see if its the same over there. My build isn't complete yet, but even with no monster set, no major sorcery, no major resolve and pve mundus stone (to reduce the healing) I'm already getting some queues above 10 minutes. Look:

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 49: Waiting 23 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/EU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WzcryXJyQ

At the risk of repeating myself, that is a you problem... not an universal one - nor is it tied to the format of the battlegrounds.

If someone plays only one character and spams burst heals to get some meaningless medals and as a result gets a longer queue time since the game considers your average score per BG before matching you and "lopsided BGs" because the build is entirely team dependent and cannot carry... that sounds like a very fixable problem to me.

Fixable how?

Which part? If you mean the long queue times the answer is simple: just don't play a burst heal oriented character - switch it up & keep burst heals to a minimum until they fix the medal score.

Not having "lopsided matches" is a more complex thing that 99% of the population fails at in any competitive player vs player environment - having the right build, understanding how to play it, having good APM/mechanical knowledge etc all play a part.

This is something almost anyone can invest time into and get good at, but it doesn't come instantly.

If you do however, you'll notice that many of the "lopsided matches" suddenly become ones you can win by doing the right things.

Pixiepumpkin · March 16

Decimus wrote: »

Not having "lopsided matches" is a more complex thing that 99% of the population fails at in any competitive player vs player environment - having the right build, understanding how to play it, having good APM/mechanical knowledge etc all play a part.

I take umbrage with this statement.

ESO PVP is far far far more complex than it needs to be. That is problem #1. This, is not a failure of the player, but rather the design. No one should have to read spreadsheets or watch a doctorates with of videos to understand how to build and make sets work in game.

Things in this game simply do not add up in anyway that the player can easily read and make imporant decisions.

For example. On paper a Khajiit sorc with 50% crit stacking Gourmands, Order's Wrath with 13.5 baseline pen with 5.9 debuff pen should hit hard.
But it does not.
However, stacking nothing but magicka does. Lower crit, lower crit damage, lower spell damage etc. The trade offs of high crit/burst with higher tooltip values are not easily understandable.

Heck, I was having a conversation with the wife today about how set pairings that make little sense do well and set pairings that make all the sense in the world are trash.

This is not a fault of the player, this is a fault of the design. Its simply convoluted/hard to understand compare to lets say wow where each class has a curated set from the devs. A larger tooltip value always represents a "buff" to your play.

So while I agree that motor skills, understanding the build/abilities is important, its not always "play it your way" as promoted. Absolute proof of this is how many sets are "outdated", but how is the average player suppose to know this?

You assert that 99% of the player base fail at "competition", I assert that 1% spend far far more time than should be necessary to have fun in the PVP game environment. If the 99% are "that bad", its not a function/faiure of the 99%.

I spent 7 months in 2004/2005 PVPing to get the High Warlord title in WOW. I did arena most seasons on the weakest class in the game and did extremely well.
I had an encounter with a dev from NC soft who played an unkillable druid, except I could kill him. Came to congradulate me on how well I played my class. I expressed humility that I simply knew my toon inside and out (which was easy to understand). He explained that no, he used exploits, literally cheated and still could not beat me.

I pvp'd then in SWTOR, Warhammer Online, New World, a myriad of FPS and generally do well.

But in ESO....well its a different story because most of the understanding of how something works happens in theory, not easily understood with a tooltip and character stat sheet.

Haki_7 · March 16

@Decimus wrote:

Which part? If you mean the long queue times the answer is simple: just don't play a burst heal oriented character - switch it up & keep burst heals to a minimum until they fix the medal score.

So I should... stop playing the way that I like and... wait for a fix that will never come?
Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/667797/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-02-5-update-44

@ZOS_Kevin wrote:

Developer Comment: There has been some misconception that MMR is derived from Medals, which is not the case. MMR is purely based on your Win/Loss/Tie from Battlegrounds. This calculation also takes into account your opponent’s MMR to determine the amount of gain or loss your MMR takes at the end of a Battleground.

xylena_lazarow · March 16

Haki_7 wrote: »

Fixable how?

That's the job of ZOS. You made your point about lopsided matches and long queues. I too hope to see 2-sided BGs improved, not reverted. I think things like a mercy rule and spawn camping prevention would help a lot, but the specifics aren't our job, we don't know the queue problem isn't technical. Player solutions are ultimately just fanfiction.

Decimus · March 16

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Not having "lopsided matches" is a more complex thing that 99% of the population fails at in any competitive player vs player environment - having the right build, understanding how to play it, having good APM/mechanical knowledge etc all play a part.

I take umbrage with this statement.

ESO PVP is far far far more complex than it needs to be. That is problem #1. This, is not a failure of the player, but rather the design. No one should have to read spreadsheets or watch a doctorates with of videos to understand how to build and make sets work in game.

Things in this game simply do not add up in anyway that the player can easily read and make imporant decisions.

For example. On paper a Khajiit sorc with 50% crit stacking Gourmands, Order's Wrath with 13.5 baseline pen with 5.9 debuff pen should hit hard.
But it does not.
However, stacking nothing but magicka does. Lower crit, lower crit damage, lower spell damage etc. The trade offs of high crit/burst with higher tooltip values are not easily understandable.

Heck, I was having a conversation with the wife today about how set pairings that make little sense do well and set pairings that make all the sense in the world are trash.

This is not a fault of the player, this is a fault of the design. Its simply convoluted/hard to understand compare to lets say wow where each class has a curated set from the devs. A larger tooltip value always represents a "buff" to your play.

It is a knowledge gap - using your example, you're getting a lot of crit chance and crit damage from those sets, but crit chance stacks additively and still requires a big enough base tooltip to be effective. If your base tooltip is low (due to running crit chance/damage sets), then your base stats have a much larger impact % wise. Furthermore, due to having many crit chance lines these sets are affected by any crit resistance your opponent might have (20% base, 30% with 5 impen, 45% with rallying cry, 55% with rallying cry 5 impen for example).

ESO's build system with over 680 different sets at this point is quite complex compared to most MMOs, but that's also what a lot of players love about it.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

So while I agree that motor skills, understanding the build/abilities is important, its not always "play it your way" as promoted. Absolute proof of this is how many sets are "outdated", but how is the average player suppose to know this?

You assert that 99% of the player base fail at "competition", I assert that 1% spend far far more time than should be necessary to have fun in the PVP game environment. If the 99% are "that bad", its not a function/faiure of the 99%.

Well, playstyle wise I'd say you can play almost any way you want... it just might require switching to more effective sets.

Of course some playstyles are not as viable as others, or only work in a certain environment, but almost anything can be made to work.

When I say 99% of the player base fail at competition, I mean that they fail at getting to the upper echelons of PvP. This is by design in any competitive game, because if you have a high percentage at the very top end of PvP you don't have competitive PvP - you have extremely casual PvP where skill and experience doesn't matter.

In the end there'll be players closer to 80% win rate than 50%, but just by pure mathematics that cannot be a big percentage of the player base since there's always winners & losers in every match.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I spent 7 months in 2004/2005 PVPing to get the High Warlord title in WOW. I did arena most seasons on the weakest class in the game and did extremely well.
I had an encounter with a dev from NC soft who played an unkillable druid, except I could kill him. Came to congradulate me on how well I played my class. I expressed humility that I simply knew my toon inside and out (which was easy to understand). He explained that no, he used exploits, literally cheated and still could not beat me.

I pvp'd then in SWTOR, Warhammer Online, New World, a myriad of FPS and generally do well.

But in ESO....well its a different story because most of the understanding of how something works happens in theory, not easily understood with a tooltip and character stat sheet.

That's really cool! Vanilla WoW was one of my first MMOs and I have fond memories of it... back in 04/05 everyone was new to the game though and there wasn't much theorycrafting done. I think if you look at the game now (I watch a lot of WoW HC content), you'll notice that people have min-maxed and optimized everything and if someone new was to duel someone very experienced at the game with all the consumables/engineering, knowledge of rotations etc... they'd get smoked pretty fast.

If we use retail WoW as an example, only 0,1% of the Arena player base ever gets Rank 1 gladiator during a season. This means that by definition, 99,9% of player base fails to compete at the highest level... and it's not RNG since there's a lot people with multiple Rank 1s over the years. This is kind of what I was trying to imply with my previous post.

I believe the percentage of people even getting the normal Gladiator rank is extremely low, since it requires a high % win rate as well.

ESO is a different game however - I think a lot more goes into theorycrafting in ESO and the combat system is very different... there are much more theorycrafting heavy games out there though that people compete in (Path of Exile for example!).

It's always a consideration to some degree, like in Warcraft 3 you need to know the right build orders, how to creep each camp, counters to each build etc... in League you need to know which items to pick, how each champion works (I believe there's over 170 of them) and so on.

In the end, in all of these games only a small percentage can reach the win rate to compete at the very highest level.

My issue with some posters here is that the expectation seems to be that game should change entirely to turn people with low win rates in team vs team into (slightly) higher win rate players by introduction of more team RNG & 3rd partying - thus rewarding skilled gameplay and good game knowledge less than it is rewarded right now, after years of lobbying ZOS to fix the format and do what every other competitive game out there does successfully.

The current BGs aren't perfect and lack a lot of things/improvements, but they're the first necessary step to where they need to be for ESO's PvP to gain more traction - and I believe this we've witnessed with faster queue times and more people playing them than ever before.

Decimus · March 16

Haki_7 wrote: »

@Decimus wrote:

Which part? If you mean the long queue times the answer is simple: just don't play a burst heal oriented character - switch it up & keep burst heals to a minimum until they fix the medal score.

So I should... stop playing the way that I like and... wait for a fix that will never come?
Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/667797/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-02-5-update-44

@ZOS_Kevin wrote:

Developer Comment: There has been some misconception that MMR is derived from Medals, which is not the case. MMR is purely based on your Win/Loss/Tie from Battlegrounds. This calculation also takes into account your opponent’s MMR to determine the amount of gain or loss your MMR takes at the end of a Battleground.

I'm not sure how accurate this post is, since I also play between 10-20 BGs on almost a daily basis and never really suffer with any queue time issues. I do play 20 characters though, which may play a part in this.

I also know of a person who plays a non-healer though who has long queues sometimes - the person also only plays one character and does a lot of BGs daily.

The funny thing is, people who have longer queues still get matched against the same people they would get matched against anyway... it just takes longer to get a queue pop.

In other words, longer queue times problem might be related to playing only one character as well and is purely a matchmaking issue, not a game mode or format issue.

So here's an additional fix alternative: level more characters and rotate between them if queue times are too long.

Pixiepumpkin · March 16

Decimus wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Not having "lopsided matches" is a more complex thing that 99% of the population fails at in any competitive player vs player environment - having the right build, understanding how to play it, having good APM/mechanical knowledge etc all play a part.

I take umbrage with this statement.

ESO PVP is far far far more complex than it needs to be. That is problem #1. This, is not a failure of the player, but rather the design. No one should have to read spreadsheets or watch a doctorates with of videos to understand how to build and make sets work in game.

Things in this game simply do not add up in anyway that the player can easily read and make imporant decisions.

For example. On paper a Khajiit sorc with 50% crit stacking Gourmands, Order's Wrath with 13.5 baseline pen with 5.9 debuff pen should hit hard.
But it does not.
However, stacking nothing but magicka does. Lower crit, lower crit damage, lower spell damage etc. The trade offs of high crit/burst with higher tooltip values are not easily understandable.

Heck, I was having a conversation with the wife today about how set pairings that make little sense do well and set pairings that make all the sense in the world are trash.

This is not a fault of the player, this is a fault of the design. Its simply convoluted/hard to understand compare to lets say wow where each class has a curated set from the devs. A larger tooltip value always represents a "buff" to your play.

It is a knowledge gap - using your example, you're getting a lot of crit chance and crit damage from those sets, but crit chance stacks additively and still requires a big enough base tooltip to be effective. If your base tooltip is low (due to running crit chance/damage sets), then your base stats have a much larger impact % wise. Furthermore, due to having many crit chance lines these sets are affected by any crit resistance your opponent might have (20% base, 30% with 5 impen, 45% with rallying cry, 55% with rallying cry 5 impen for example).

A knowledge gap, sure, but the information and its communication to the player are not easily understandable. That is my point.
A player should not have to spend time outside of the game to understand how to gear a successful character for their chosen content. In other games, most if not all of that information is easily understood on the tooltips and character sheet. In ESO, the numbers don't always add up and the reasoning for them not adding up is not expressed/taught through the base UI.

Decimus wrote: »

ESO's build system with over 680 different sets at this point is quite complex compared to most MMOs, but that's also what a lot of players love about it.

Ohh, I love it as well, but the issue as I showcased in my OP's examples is that sets that LOOK like they should work, do not. And sets that do not look like they should work often do. Again, there is nothing in the UI to indicate if the stats as presented are "good" or "bad" meaning will they represent a solid cohesive build, or will they be lackluster.

Decimus wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

So while I agree that motor skills, understanding the build/abilities is important, its not always "play it your way" as promoted. Absolute proof of this is how many sets are "outdated", but how is the average player suppose to know this?

You assert that 99% of the player base fail at "competition", I assert that 1% spend far far more time than should be necessary to have fun in the PVP game environment. If the 99% are "that bad", its not a function/faiure of the 99%.

Well, playstyle wise I'd say you can play almost any way you want... it just might require switching to more effective sets.

Of course some playstyles are not as viable as others, or only work in a certain environment, but almost anything can be made to work.

When I say 99% of the player base fail at competition, I mean that they fail at getting to the upper echelons of PvP. This is by design in any competitive game, because if you have a high percentage at the very top end of PvP you don't have competitive PvP - you have extremely casual PvP where skill and experience doesn't matter.

In the end there'll be players closer to 80% win rate than 50%, but just by pure mathematics that cannot be a big percentage of the player base since there's always winners & losers in every match.

But this is why I stated in my previous reply that for example, in WOW the sets are currated by the developers, so choosing them (in PVP you only have one set to choose from, or rather you choose the set that works with your spec). In ESO the sets have to first be farmed, or purchased. One simply does not "swap to a new set" for any given content. Sure, veterans who have all the sets collected can do this, but the average player who works, does not stream, approaches the game casually will not have access to this stuff in the same way someone who lives in game does.
This lack of gearing is then reflected when they try to perform in a BG or even a trial/dungeon.

Due to the lack of balancing gear sets in a timely manner, these issues arise and its why so many people have a hard time getting their feet wet in these environments. You can only lose so many times before it affects the ego and the player just says "screw it" and does something else.

Decimus wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I spent 7 months in 2004/2005 PVPing to get the High Warlord title in WOW. I did arena most seasons on the weakest class in the game and did extremely well.
I had an encounter with a dev from NC soft who played an unkillable druid, except I could kill him. Came to congradulate me on how well I played my class. I expressed humility that I simply knew my toon inside and out (which was easy to understand). He explained that no, he used exploits, literally cheated and still could not beat me.

I pvp'd then in SWTOR, Warhammer Online, New World, a myriad of FPS and generally do well.

But in ESO....well its a different story because most of the understanding of how something works happens in theory, not easily understood with a tooltip and character stat sheet.

That's really cool! Vanilla WoW was one of my first MMOs and I have fond memories of it... back in 04/05 everyone was new to the game though and there wasn't much theorycrafting done. I think if you look at the game now (I watch a lot of WoW HC content), you'll notice that people have min-maxed and optimized everything and if someone new was to duel someone very experienced at the game with all the consumables/engineering, knowledge of rotations etc... they'd get smoked pretty fast.

If we use retail WoW as an example, only 0,1% of the Arena player base ever gets Rank 1 gladiator during a season. This means that by definition, 99,9% of player base fails to compete at the highest level... and it's not RNG since there's a lot people with multiple Rank 1s over the years. This is kind of what I was trying to imply with my previous post.

I read your OP about the "1%" as an attack on players who did not fall into that category. I would argue games should never be built for the "1%" but rather the masses in general. I felt like you were attacking casual players who do not have the time to read spreadsheets and study the game to the same degree as the "1%", which I think is a completely unfair evaulation of that player base.

Decimus wrote: »

ESO is a different game however - I think a lot more goes into theorycrafting in ESO and the combat system is very different... there are much more theorycrafting heavy games out there though that people compete in (Path of Exile for example!).

And this is fun for many, an a chore for most. The in game tooltip/character sheet should be more expressive/easier to understand when combining gear sets.

Decimus wrote: »

My issue with some posters here is that the expectation seems to be that game should change entirely to turn people with low win rates in team vs team into (slightly) higher win rate players by introduction of more team RNG & 3rd partying - thus rewarding skilled gameplay and good game knowledge less than it is rewarded right now, after years of lobbying ZOS to fix the format and do what every other competitive game out there does successfully.

Well, this is a tough one. Because skilled gameplay should represent a better chance to win for the "skilled" player, but at the same time the content format SHOULD appeal to the masses.
This goes back to the "you can only lose so many times" issue. The game as it is now, is not easy to understand regarding gearing, all the buffs, the amount of bar swapping, bufffing, debuffing. Its a lot to take in. On top of that you have people of different age groups where in most cases the older, the less reaction time they have. This will turn off those folks from the PVP format as they can't compete witih the sweatlords. ESO combat is fast paced. I would argue too fast (I can literally die to the death screen without ever seeing the enemy, even excluding bombers). When this happens, to the same player over and over, it gets old...and you know what I do, my wife does, people in my friends list do....we find something else to do, and often that is NOT playing ESO. Which from a business standpoint, you NEVER want your customer to leave angry and peruse the competitions products for your entertainment.

Bottom line is that the "skill" gap between a casual player and a "sweat lord" is far far FAR to great. That has to be narrowed.

Decimus wrote: »

The current BGs aren't perfect and lack a lot of things/improvements, but they're the first necessary step to where they need to be for ESO's PvP to gain more traction - and I believe this we've witnessed with faster queue times and more people playing them than ever before.

I much prefer PvP, not PvPvP. But the issue we have right now is that pvp guilds are stacking their players into solo queues against pugs and completely camping them (I guess you guys call it seal clubbing). I rarely saw this in wow, it did happen, but no where near to the degree I see in ESO. And when it happens 10 times in a night, 5-10 losses in a row. I just log, wife just logs, friends just log.

The low engagement population into PVP is proof that there are issues, people can only lose so many times before they give up.
Game design 101, the player has to have agency over their character (which is why bombers should absolutely be removed from the game), and the player has to win. Obviously in a PVP game, the player can't win all the time, but they need to win close to 50% of the time else they will move on.

The first start in all of this, is making gearing characters easier to understand without spreadsheets, and you tube videos.

I guess what I am asking for is a damage calculator built into the character stat window. You change a value, it goes up or it goes down. Easy to understand.

I know it wont happen, balance will never happen. PVP in this game will always be niche.
I just fundamentally had an issue with your comment about the "1%" as I took it that anyone other than the 1% are "scrubs", and to that I vehemehntly disagree for all the reasons I listed.

If I read your comment incorrectly, I apoloigise.

Haki_7 · March 16

Decimus wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

@Decimus wrote:

Which part? If you mean the long queue times the answer is simple: just don't play a burst heal oriented character - switch it up & keep burst heals to a minimum until they fix the medal score.

So I should... stop playing the way that I like and... wait for a fix that will never come?
Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/667797/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-02-5-update-44

@ZOS_Kevin wrote:

Developer Comment: There has been some misconception that MMR is derived from Medals, which is not the case. MMR is purely based on your Win/Loss/Tie from Battlegrounds. This calculation also takes into account your opponent’s MMR to determine the amount of gain or loss your MMR takes at the end of a Battleground.

I'm not sure how accurate this post is, since I also play between 10-20 BGs on almost a daily basis and never really suffer with any queue time issues. I do play 20 characters though, which may play a part in this.

I also know of a person who plays a non-healer though who has long queues sometimes - the person also only plays one character and does a lot of BGs daily.

The funny thing is, people who have longer queues still get matched against the same people they would get matched against anyway... it just takes longer to get a queue pop.

In other words, longer queue times problem might be related to playing only one character as well and is purely a matchmaking issue, not a game mode or format issue.

So here's an additional fix alternative: level more characters and rotate between them if queue times are too long.

I shouldn't have to create multiple copies if I only want to play one character, but at this point I need to accept that it is the last move I can make.
I'll send you 1 million gold on NA and you send me the same on EU, yes?

Moonspawn · March 17

Haki_7 wrote: »

I'll send you 1 million gold on NA and you send me the same on EU, yes?

Its a great deal, Decimus:

On NA, 1000 gold buys 1 crown, while on EU, you need 2000. This means gold is more valuable on NA.
You'd get to play with and against different players.
If you're worried about lag, I'm certain that your ping (from Europe to NA) is lower than what Haki gets on NA.
You'd get the experience of doings BGs with all your MMR concentrated on a single character instead of spread across 20. Maybe it would be much more challenging?

Thumbless_Bot · March 17

They appear to have just reset mmr. Haki, are you stull getting long queu times today? I am and I queue for both 4v4 and 8v8 and I play on and off throughout the day. My longest queue time probably 15 but usually between 5 and 10. Sometimes they pop immediately, but usually that means getting dumped into a slaughter. Those can be a lot of fun though, especially when you help turn the tide.