[Request] Lethal trap of "Veteran" group dungeon should be also very Lethal in "normal" dungeon.

AvalonRanger · March 12

[Request] Lethal trap of "Veteran" group dungeon should be also very Lethal in "normal" dungeon.

Or put more "distinctive UI design" for it. (Not just red color AoE.)

As a real tank role, most of damage pattern are "not so lethal in normal dungeon".

This is bit problem. In most of case, we notice real dangerous damage "in veteran mode".
Not in normal dungeon. (If you're glass DPS, then you'll be killed by any of damage though...)

So...I want to notice which is real dangerous trap in "normal mode" dungeon before accident happen
in veteran mode.

Grizzbeorn · March 12

No.
Normal dungeons are *supposed* to be easier than Veteran.

AvalonRanger · March 12

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

No.
Normal dungeons are *supposed* to be easier than Veteran.

Not kind of issue.

Damage UI design is very abstractive still in U45. So people can't notice
until check damage result report of after death.

So I want to know lethal or not before real disaster happen in veteran mode.

Grizzbeorn · March 12

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

No.
Normal dungeons are *supposed* to be easier than Veteran.

Not kind of issue.

Damage UI design is very abstractive still in U45. So people can't notice
until check damage result report of after death.

So I want to know lethal or not before real disaster happen in veteran mode.

Or maybe just find out when you get to Veteran.
The difficulties should not be the same for Normal and Veteran.

AvalonRanger · March 12

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

No.
Normal dungeons are *supposed* to be easier than Veteran.

Not kind of issue.

Damage UI design is very abstractive still in U45. So people can't notice
until check damage result report of after death.

So I want to know lethal or not before real disaster happen in veteran mode.

Or maybe just find out when you get to Veteran.
The difficulties should not be the same for Normal and Veteran.

Only "lethal trap" should be same in normal dungeon. Not everything same as vet.

I couldn't notice that "Bloodroot Forge volcano projectile" are dangerous until someone teach me mech.
Because, it's almost zero damage for the tank even in vet mode.

Some people still ignore lethal AoE damage in veteran mode, and don't use damage
avoiding obstacle (pillar or shield boulder). Because, it's not so lethal in normal mode.

Hapexamendios · March 12

No need to change. The red color for the attacks should be avoided and the consequences for not doing so should be less in a normal dungeon.

tomofhyrule · March 12

This comment about “please make lethal attacks a different color than nonlethal hits” has been made before, and as was said then, it’s not always possible.

Many of these are affected by a character’s health and resistances. So no, we can’t just say that a given attack will kill a player if a tank can survive it and a squishy can’t.

And finding out which is which is the mark of a good player. Yes that takes time, and practice, and a lot of deaths to figure it out. But it is not ESO’s job to essentially do all of the progging for you.

valenwood_vegan · March 13

Normal should be easier than vet... just do them on vet to learn how they work on vet?

Kittytravel · March 13

Mechanically this makes no sense. The entire idea of a normal dungeon is to be forgiving when making mistakes and not doing mechanics. It's the dungeon you bring someone into to say "Hey that giant AoE that just knocked you back and tickled you? On Vet that kills you if it hits you. Don't let it happen."

I'd much rather train a new player in a forgiving environment first rather than force them to learn every auto-kill mechanic in a game. 30% of them likely won't ever deal with the Vet Dungeon equivalent as they don't want to do them. So why punish them suddenly by making them have to learn mechanics or die for a casual playstyle?

Bithabus · March 13

Normal is for everyone, including new players and people with physical handicaps. Elite players don't touch normals.

AvalonRanger · March 13

With my good memory of childhood days... Thanks professor Jones.

There're huge visual dissonance theory in the ESO.

In the public dungeon, we're usually stabbed by much of needles or be slashed by huge swinging blades,
but almost "itchy my skin" level damage. Just heal little bit, then good to go.

Do we have "adamantium" skeleton?

Maybe, we have.

(Lack of tension too much.

OMG...)

Then, we enter the group vet dungeon or trial mission.

"Hey...watch. Something red zone keep expanding. Is that safe?

"
"Well...maybe. Can you see something dangerous object out there?

"
"No...nothing. Don't worry, it's just "itchy my skin level damage in the normal mode".

"

---->> Instant wipe.

=ESO

How many "update" do you need to remove those weird game design?

CalamityCat · March 13

I wouldn't make it lethal in normal mode, common sense tells me when I go from normal to vet, the mechanics will be much more important and painful if you screw them up. By all means have things hurt a bit more so players are properly aware of mechanics.

My approach with vet dungeons, especially DLC ones is to look at a guide before I make the switch up. Then I'm not letting the group down by not understanding mechanics. Especially if I'm the healer. It's less awkward than trying to speed read the instructions between group wipes. I never expect to make my first vet run without a fair amount of death and chaos though.

Thysbe · March 13

Normal is not about preparing you personally for vet. It´s a game mode for players who don´t want to engage in sweaty mechanics and just enjoy the athmosphere and get some gear or geodes.

Many players are currently blind running the new dungeons on vet or even vetHM and have little to no difficulty figuring out whats going on. Learn to read what the game tells you. There is no rocket science in ESO dungeons and most mechanics are explained in a voice line or preview animation before the fight.

That something might kill you on vet that doesn´t kill you on normal is kind of a no brainer and should stay that way. I really can´t follow your "I want to die on normal difficutly to know what kills me on vet" resoning!

disky · March 13

tomofhyrule wrote: »

This comment about “please make lethal attacks a different color than nonlethal hits” has been made before, and as was said then, it’s not always possible.

Many of these are affected by a character’s health and resistances. So no, we can’t just say that a given attack will kill a player if a tank can survive it and a squishy can’t.

And finding out which is which is the mark of a good player. Yes that takes time, and practice, and a lot of deaths to figure it out. But it is not ESO’s job to essentially do all of the progging for you.

I created one of those threads not too long ago. Whether or not an attack is "lethal" to an individual or not is dependent on many things but it's a fact that ZOS knows which attacks do high damage and which to average/low damage. ZOS knows which attacks are meant to be devastating. So I think the issue with this opinion is simply in the way the feature is being considered, and that comes down to calling it "lethal". I wonder if calling it an Ultimate or Devastating Attack might make it easier for certain people to accept.

That being said, I agree with the OP. Keeping the UI consistent makes sense, especially if we aren't calling it lethal.

Fischblut · March 13

So I want to know lethal or not before real disaster happen in veteran mode.

When doing some dungeon on vet for the first time, I will (mostly unintentionally

) stand in every dangerous area to see what happens. Something I can dodge, something I can block, something I can heal through, something I must avoid at all costs.

When doing normal dungeon for relaxed quest or easier gear farm, I want to be able to stand in most of dangerous areas without fear of death

I remember how I took 3 casual players into Scalecaller Peak normal run... I explained Ogre twins in detail, and all those players still stood in every possible "deadly on vet" mechanics

I explained last boss, and nobody except me went into bosses shield to avoid deadly area explosion. I am very grateful to the developers that none of those mechanics oneshot players at normal, and they can survive with a little health left!

I also remember funny moment when my group was doing "kill 50 adds in other dimension" mechanic in vet Bal Sunnar. Adds spawn very slowly, so after some time one of DDs typed in chat "boring fight". I was a tank, and I always really wanted to see how dangerous is the boss beam mechanic there. I went into it being sure that I can block and outheal it, and if damage gets too big - just dodge out of the beam... It evaporated my tank, I could not react at all

Suddenly the fight was not so boring, such a hilarious timing! And I learned why it was right to avoid the beam even as tank.
It is good that on normal this is more forgiving.

AzuraFan · March 13

Thysbe wrote: »

Normal is not about preparing you personally for vet. It´s a game mode for players who don´t want to engage in sweaty mechanics and just enjoy the athmosphere and get some gear or geodes.

Exactly. Normal is an easier, more relaxed mode. Not a place for lethal mechanics.

Elvenheart · March 13

AvalonRanger wrote: »

With my good memory of childhood days... Thanks professor Jones.

There're huge visual dissonance theory in the ESO.

In the public dungeon, we're usually stabbed by much of needles or be slashed by huge swinging blades,
but almost "itchy my skin" level damage. Just heal little bit, then good to go.

Do we have "adamantium" skeleton? Maybe, we have.
(Lack of tension too much. OMG...)

Then, we enter the group vet dungeon or trial mission.

"Hey...watch. Something red zone keep expanding. Is that safe? "
"Well...maybe. Can you see something dangerous object out there? "
"No...nothing. Don't worry, it's just "itchy my skin level damage in the normal mode". "

---->> Instant wipe. =ESO

How many "update" do you need to remove those weird game design?

I don’t recall there being a lot of instant magickal healing or plentiful healing potions or resurrections happening in any of the Indiana Jones movies, but that was a long time ago. 🤠

In Tamriel, a good healer could fix that player on the spike wall in no time!

Dagoth_Rac · March 13

"ESO needs to make every random and PUG encounter truly intense and punishing, so that all pugs are forced to become as good as me, and I don't need to join a guild or make friends or use voice chat or put together a dedicated group."

spartaxoxo · March 13

Normal does enough to show you the mechanic exists. It's not supposed to be the same difficulty. The whole point of separate modes is that messing up a mechanic is more forgiving.

El_Borracho · March 13

Or just look up a dungeon guide...

AvalonRanger · March 13

Elvenheart wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

With my good memory of childhood days... Thanks professor Jones.

There're huge visual dissonance theory in the ESO.

In the public dungeon, we're usually stabbed by much of needles or be slashed by huge swinging blades,
but almost "itchy my skin" level damage. Just heal little bit, then good to go.

Do we have "adamantium" skeleton? Maybe, we have.
(Lack of tension too much. OMG...)

Then, we enter the group vet dungeon or trial mission.

"Hey...watch. Something red zone keep expanding. Is that safe? "
"Well...maybe. Can you see something dangerous object out there? "
"No...nothing. Don't worry, it's just "itchy my skin level damage in the normal mode". "

---->> Instant wipe. =ESO

How many "update" do you need to remove those weird game design?

I don’t recall there being a lot of instant magickal healing or plentiful healing potions or resurrections happening in any of the Indiana Jones movies, but that was a long time ago. 🤠

In Tamriel, a good healer could fix that player on the spike wall in no time!

Yea, except cradle of shadows.

AvalonRanger · March 13

El_Borracho wrote: »

Or just look up a dungeon guide...

I do it always, but it also destroy immersion always.

AvalonRanger · March 13

AvalonRanger wrote: »

With my good memory of childhood days... Thanks professor Jones.

There're huge visual dissonance theory in the ESO.

In the public dungeon, we're usually stabbed by much of needles or be slashed by huge swinging blades,
but almost "itchy my skin" level damage. Just heal little bit, then good to go.

Do we have "adamantium" skeleton? Maybe, we have.
(Lack of tension too much. OMG...)

Then, we enter the group vet dungeon or trial mission.

"Hey...watch. Something red zone keep expanding. Is that safe? "
"Well...maybe. Can you see something dangerous object out there? "
"No...nothing. Don't worry, it's just "itchy my skin level damage in the normal mode". "

---->> Instant wipe. =ESO

How many "update" do you need to remove those weird game design?

ZOS graphic designer had better pay attention those problem more seriously.

AvalonRanger · March 13

"Don't move your muscles"

"Oh boy.....Hey !! Come on ZOS !! Why boss character try to explain mech for the dungeon adventurer?"

Just make it more natural visual design. That's professional way of art work.

AvalonRanger · March 13

How about new dungeon of "Exiled Redoubt"?

We've already seen "execution by the needles" at the first contact scene at the boss room.
But, still itchy my skin level in normal. My brain confused always when I saw those scene.

El_Borracho · March 17

Or just look up a dungeon guide...

AvalonRanger wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Or just look up a dungeon guide...

I do it always, but it also destroy immersion always.

Fair

AvalonRanger · March 20

Player can swim lava river of City of Ash 2, and can't do it in the other place.
Sigh.....

Designing the game based on "same rule and basis".

Most of AAA game know about how important this is. But not in ESO.
And I always say this in this forum.

Instant death= If you see that UI or specific object, then all member must avoid it.
(Or, must stop it by some mech)

Dangerous but not Lethal = If you see that UI or specific object, then you had better avoid it,
If you can't do it, then suffering damage, but not Lethal amount damage.

Normal dungeon is training ground for studying combat flow, right?
I really hate "vague" or uncommon rule for each of location or dungeon.
Those game concept always makes the players confused.

frogthroat · March 20

If I understood correctly, what OP is asking is that what would be one shot in veteran would actually do some damage in normal. So that you learn some mechanics in normal.

Which I understand. Currently you don't learn any mechanics in normal. Nothing does any significant damage. Boss' heavy is not that much more dangerous than a light attack. If some shot would make any kind of dent in the health bar you would know that in the veteran this will probably kill.

At least this is how I understood OP.

Thysbe · March 20

If you want to feel more of the damage just undress instead of forcing others through wipes on normal. You said yourself you run as a real Tank. Maybe its not surprising that you survive basic content without a scratch when wearing a set up made for Hardmodes.

If fights go too fast run solo. That way you can experience every mechanic you want to see already, no need to change normal.

Normal is a game mode on its own and not a veteran trial ground. Many players have no intention to run vetDLC for example. Not having to face deadly mechanics is exactly what they want. In my Trifecta group we play HM, Normal mode is perfect for solo questing and if I need to PUG I prefer vet since there is less speed running and people tend to somehow play their roles.

Each mode is catering to a different audience, different player stages and needs - if you want to enable Normal as training ground for vet you have the means already - undress you tank sets, don´t use foods and you´ll get the lethal damage you want to see.

LootAllTheStuff · March 21

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Player can swim lava river of City of Ash 2, and can't do it in the other place.
Sigh.....

Designing the game based on "same rule and basis".

Most of AAA game know about how important this is. But not in ESO.
And I always say this in this forum.

Instant death= If you see that UI or specific object, then all member must avoid it.
(Or, must stop it by some mech)

Dangerous but not Lethal = If you see that UI or specific object, then you had better avoid it,
If you can't do it, then suffering damage, but not Lethal amount damage.

Normal dungeon is training ground for studying combat flow, right?
I really hate "vague" or uncommon rule for each of location or dungeon.
Those game concept always makes the players confused.

The problem from the developer's perspective is that a player running a normal dungeon could range from extremely low level with random white or green gear, no CP, and only a handful of skill points, all the way up to level 50/160, purple or gold min-max gear sets, and max attributes/skill lines. Unless there's dynamic damage scaling throughout the whole game, I'm not sure how developers would handle that to ensure that the game does what's needed without completely alienating new players (which, let's face it, the game needs to stay viable).

I'm also not sure that "normal" is necessarily viewed as a "training ground" for veteran content. To me, my prior expeience in other games would interpret that as simply "Not as painful to run as veteran". I would actually expect a veteran dungeon to have additional mechanics in play that were not present at all on normal. Otherwise, where's the challenge? No-one really likes difficulty that's simply dial the hit-points up to 11.

twisttop138 · March 21

I'm not sure if we're having a language barrier issue here, if we are that's totally ok. English can be hard for even native speakers.
What I think the Op is trying to say is to have different color telegraphs for attacks depending on severity of the attack? That all attacks are the same color ground aoe red (though this can be changed) so when you learn what you can take in normal it's hard to differentiate in vet? I could be way off base here.

I would have to say though that learning how mechanics different between normal and vet is part of the learning curve and progression and should stay as it is. Learning the mechanics, what telegraphs mean what, what audio cues preceded which attacks etc is an integral part of becoming good at group content.

I don't think the Op was trying to say make normal mode harder, as some people thought but if he is then, well I would hope they wouldn't. Normal is for everyone, vet is a little more challenging and hm is, well, hard. I think it works well.
Again, I could be off base on the opening post. If I am, disregard.