kiwi_tea wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

The only nerf magsorc deserves is the heal on the shield. Everything else is not an issue

Continuing from the other Sorc thread, I still disagree here. The BashSorc spec you yourself said is a problem IIRC is not a Ward build. I see the Sorc problem as ranged nuke spam combined with disengage/reengage spam, which even mid players can threaten. There are serious problems with Sorc class design beyond just Ward, which has already been nerfed. I can kill Ward MagSorcs on my DK if I get in their face and outplay them, as I should be able to.

The common ground between my mid MagSorc problem and your BashSorc problem: the teleport spam.

I totally agree with this assessment. The problem with sorcs - now that I am playing MagSorc - is the completely disproportionate control you have over whether the engage happens and your ability to disengage. A mid-magsorc (ie, me) simply does not have to take a bad fight, even if they play badly and get themselves into one that deserves punishment. A magsorc can leave almost every fight in open world. They can just leave.

Agree 1000%

I think the answer is to make multiple streaks cost way more than they already do, like double the cost for 2 streaks within x seconds... so it costs x then 2x then 4x then 8x. Or simple apply a cooldown to streak.

To make it fair you can apply the same penalty to any and all gap closers, and cloak.

If I, as melee, make it through your barrage of overpowered range skills, only to have you ward, then streak away three times and repeat your overpowered ranged assault, that is a bit overpowered and should cost you way more.

StaticWave wrote: »

Wallar333 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why is Streak suddenly an issue, when the objective issue is Hardened Ward?

Objective by what measure?

I can kill OW MagSorcs 1v1 just fine, assuming they actually stick around to duel, not teleport spam back and forth taking free potshots while avoiding 1v1 engagement. If you can't break their defenses in a 1v1 that's on your build.

Objective by the fact that before Ward buff, magsorc was trash in Cyrodiil and post Ward buff, magsorc is top tier. Streak remained unchanged. Is that good enough of an objective measure for you?

I too don’t have an issue killing Sorcs, so you don’t have to worry about me lol. I can guarantee right now my build is 99% better than people’s builds on this forum, and that’s also field tested.

I’m genuinely curious about your actual agenda here. Are you saying magsorc deserves to have Streak nerfed? Say I entertain your stance on this matter and agree with you. What are you going to do about Sorc losing access to a stun and having more bar space issues?

As a DD supposed to be class, with high RANGE dmg, i dont see any reason why you need hard CC that much,especially on a teleport spell, sorc class shoudlnt be tank/heal/DD all in one with teleports and hard CC lol, but idc about sorcs having hard CC, ZOS can always put it on another spell for example, but it definitely shouldnt be on streak lol.
Idk bro, sorc is OP one way or another, see other ppls comments, see some other topics here on forums, ask anyone in game, or check BGs/cyro, sorcs wont get out of this, its destroying whole PVP content in the game, and ppl are refusing to play this nonsense, from BIGGER part cos of sorcs. Like video you posted before, NO other class would, nor should survive such a fight, like 1v5 lol. And no other class except sorc is able to survive it, only class able to get away more less is NB, but its way too easy to get them out of invis, when so many ppl are using sets/spells for reveal, especially in cyro, and without invis NB dont have ANY advantage, not to mention sorcs streak, when theres sorc, its 100% death for NB, if sorc is not completely dumb, you just use streak at the spot where you seen NB takes invis, it drains magicka like crazy, so NB wont be too far from the spot.. And other classes dont even have anything to get away from fight, not even invis, so again, [snip] ?
You cant be serious about defending such mechanics, im sure its good for you as sorc, but soon, there would be no one else playing PVP, just you sorcs fighting each other for eternity, with rest of the community gone, or rather killing openworld mobs.

All classes have bar space issues, ive had to loose heals and get rid of one multitarget CC and strong debuff to get more dmg and enemy resist debuff, so ? You expect other classes dont have issues with their skill bars? Or what, i dont understand ...

I’ve played through 7 years of Sorc being trash to being decent and I know exactly where Sorc needs adjustments and where it does not. I can tell you with certainty that more than half of your complaints are not actual issues of the class.

I’m not going to comment on your skill level because I don’t want to derail the thread, but from my experience magsorc’s mobility is not hard to deal with. I have multiple videos showing how easy it can be to chase down a Streaking Sorc without needing Streak yourself.

As for your argument about Sorc surviving outnumbered PvP, there are countless videos of good players pulling off 1vXes on every class. All of them include killing weaker players because that is what a 1vX is about. If you think for one moment that a magsorc can 1vX good players then you are very mistaken.

Warden 1vX:

https://youtu.be/fUwklbqTpgU?si=AAspxGA3zEo4cvPu

DK 1vX:

https://youtu.be/4wSX7P2r744?si=3-LmU4BxQS_kD8nu

NB 1vX:

https://youtu.be/XxiY5xorPEc?si=l7f1TyOh91CcNmKq

Necro 1vX:

https://youtu.be/jaFLRRkfJFQ?si=NhYV5Ur3-nw_D-UK

Templar 1vX:

https://youtu.be/dUbiHyWG9YQ?si=wrbhz2Y2QzYlAd0o

Arcanist 1vX:

https://youtu.be/qAO78rdSMic?si=1OVmnh7RF_zKXPH6

All of these clips are good players on every class pulling off 1vXes. Of course some classes like Sorc and NB have an easier time doing it, but it doesn’t mean 1vXing is exclusively a Sorc thing.

Every class has bar space issues? I’m sorry but the only 2 classes that legitimately have bar space issues are Templar and Sorc. This is due to the fact that these 2 classes have to give up either a monster set, a potion, or an important buff to be able to fit the mandatory buffs to function in Cyrodiil.

Clips are curated and worth about as much as person on the street interviews... meaning not a lot of anything. Clip infers that it was... clipped... half the time it shows, you got your revenge against x or y. But it doesn't show them getting clapped by x or y.

[edited to remove quote]

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just take the burst heal off Ward (or make into a HoT)

The first Ward nerf didn't seem to decrease the MagSorc population nor did it make them less obnoxious in OW, so I'm not sure this would either. As long as it can constantly mow players down with machine gun fire from off screen with little to no risk, it's gonna be disproportionately popular. I think there are a number of ways they could fix this without touching Streak, such as an animation/projectile speed nerf on the max range attacks.

Wallar333 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Wallar333 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why is Streak suddenly an issue, when the objective issue is Hardened Ward?

Objective by what measure?

I can kill OW MagSorcs 1v1 just fine, assuming they actually stick around to duel, not teleport spam back and forth taking free potshots while avoiding 1v1 engagement. If you can't break their defenses in a 1v1 that's on your build.

Objective by the fact that before Ward buff, magsorc was trash in Cyrodiil and post Ward buff, magsorc is top tier. Streak remained unchanged. Is that good enough of an objective measure for you?

I too don’t have an issue killing Sorcs, so you don’t have to worry about me lol. I can guarantee right now my build is 99% better than people’s builds on this forum, and that’s also field tested.

I’m genuinely curious about your actual agenda here. Are you saying magsorc deserves to have Streak nerfed? Say I entertain your stance on this matter and agree with you. What are you going to do about Sorc losing access to a stun and having more bar space issues?

As a DD supposed to be class, with high RANGE dmg, i dont see any reason why you need hard CC that much,especially on a teleport spell, sorc class shoudlnt be tank/heal/DD all in one with teleports and hard CC lol, but idc about sorcs having hard CC, ZOS can always put it on another spell for example, but it definitely shouldnt be on streak lol.
Idk bro, sorc is OP one way or another, see other ppls comments, see some other topics here on forums, ask anyone in game, or check BGs/cyro, sorcs wont get out of this, its destroying whole PVP content in the game, and ppl are refusing to play this nonsense, from BIGGER part cos of sorcs. Like video you posted before, NO other class would, nor should survive such a fight, like 1v5 lol. And no other class except sorc is able to survive it, only class able to get away more less is NB, but its way too easy to get them out of invis, when so many ppl are using sets/spells for reveal, especially in cyro, and without invis NB dont have ANY advantage, not to mention sorcs streak, when theres sorc, its 100% death for NB, if sorc is not completely dumb, you just use streak at the spot where you seen NB takes invis, it drains magicka like crazy, so NB wont be too far from the spot.. And other classes dont even have anything to get away from fight, not even invis, so again, [snip] ?
You cant be serious about defending such mechanics, im sure its good for you as sorc, but soon, there would be no one else playing PVP, just you sorcs fighting each other for eternity, with rest of the community gone, or rather killing openworld mobs.

All classes have bar space issues, ive had to loose heals and get rid of one multitarget CC and strong debuff to get more dmg and enemy resist debuff, so ? You expect other classes dont have issues with their skill bars? Or what, i dont understand ...

I’ve played through 7 years of Sorc being trash to being decent and I know exactly where Sorc needs adjustments and where it does not. I can tell you with certainty that more than half of your complaints are not actual issues of the class.

I’m not going to comment on your skill level because I don’t want to derail the thread, but from my experience magsorc’s mobility is not hard to deal with. I have multiple videos showing how easy it can be to chase down a Streaking Sorc without needing Streak yourself.

As for your argument about Sorc surviving outnumbered PvP, there are countless videos of good players pulling off 1vXes on every class. All of them include killing weaker players because that is what a 1vX is about. If you think for one moment that a magsorc can 1vX good players then you are very mistaken.

Warden 1vX:

https://youtu.be/fUwklbqTpgU?si=AAspxGA3zEo4cvPu

DK 1vX:

https://youtu.be/4wSX7P2r744?si=3-LmU4BxQS_kD8nu

NB 1vX:

https://youtu.be/XxiY5xorPEc?si=l7f1TyOh91CcNmKq

Necro 1vX:

https://youtu.be/jaFLRRkfJFQ?si=NhYV5Ur3-nw_D-UK

Templar 1vX:

https://youtu.be/dUbiHyWG9YQ?si=wrbhz2Y2QzYlAd0o

Arcanist 1vX:

https://youtu.be/qAO78rdSMic?si=1OVmnh7RF_zKXPH6

All of these clips are good players on every class pulling off 1vXes. Of course some classes like Sorc and NB have an easier time doing it, but it doesn’t mean 1vXing is exclusively a Sorc thing.

Every class has bar space issues? I’m sorry but the only 2 classes that legitimately have bar space issues are Templar and Sorc. This is due to the fact that these 2 classes have to give up either a monster set, a potion, or an important buff to be able to fit the mandatory buffs to function in Cyrodiil.

[edited to remove quote]

Youre defending extremely OP class, and even posted here on forum to make it EVEN more OP, i didint read your post honestly, but its description is enough for me to rather dont even read that, cos just those few words are getting my blood pressure high bro.

You mean the guy that was pretty much the first to call out the hardened ward buff in the pts forums ?
As far as I remember, there were almost no significant balance changes between u41 and now so why exactly would bringing sorc back to its pre-u41 state without touching streak be a problem ? This is a thing I can't explain : before that, there was no reason to complain about sorcs (except for the occasional unhinged nb main thread who thinks it's unfair that other classes have mobility tools...wait) because they were balanced. Let's just bring sorcs back to this state ! We necro/templar/arc mains would be happy to see our old pals magsorcs come back in the club

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just take the burst heal off Ward (or make into a HoT)

The first Ward nerf didn't seem to decrease the MagSorc population nor did it make them less obnoxious in OW, so I'm not sure this would either. As long as it can constantly mow players down with machine gun fire from off screen with little to no risk, it's gonna be disproportionately popular. I think there are a number of ways they could fix this without touching Streak, such as an animation/projectile speed nerf on the max range attacks.

Haven't played in about 5 months, so I'm a little fuzzy.

This from 43 right?

"Conjured Ward: Reduced the heal scaling of this ability and the Hardened Ward morph to match the scaling of the Regenerative Ward morph, which is 10% of your Max Health or Magicka, down from 15%."

Yeah, that didn;t do didly squat because with easy access to Major Vitality as long as there is a heal of any decent value, that one button spam is very strong defense. More than my Templar gets from spamming Breath (who doesn't have Streak).

StaticWave wrote: »

@Wallar333 I was one of the first people to call for Ward nerf during DAY ONE of PTS testing. I made 3 threads calling for Ward nerf:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/654204/hardened-ward-heal-making-it-to-live-is-a-mistake-and-needs-to-be-changed#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656605/blood-magic-passive-rework-necessitates-hardened-ward-rework#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/651611/the-burst-heal-from-sorcerers-conjured-ward-and-its-morphs-needs-to-be-value-capped#latest

I received a lot of back lash from magsorc mains when I told them that Ward buff would make their class broken. Guess what? Now everyone is saying magsorc is broken. It took me 1 hour to realize something that took most people months.

So you accusing me of defending magsorc is hilarious lol. I am simply being objective about class balancing. Everything in your post does not sound objective whatsoever. It sounds more like hate towards the class. I am 100% sure that if ZOS did nerf everything according to you, the class would become unplayable like old Necro.

I honestly didnt cared before, i wasnt playing PVP for a long time, few times tried, got melted by sorcs, partially by templars so went doing pve, now after i played pvp more again, i realized something is not ok, checked spells mechanics better etc. and what i see ? Completely broken sorc, it made me pissed so i came to cry here on forum, cos someone have to say something, if ZOS wont do something about this asap, then PVP will definitely die, honestly idk if its not too late anyway, cos we can all see that pvp is simply dead. I played years ago on other account, came back playing on new one after couple of years, and i came back to what ? Dead PVP full of annoying OP sorcs and EVEN worse mechanics than i remember, i feel literally like i came back to see this game at its end.
I never been forum guy not even been reading forums, but this state of pvp ? How could ZOS allow THIS to happen, and you guys says its happening for a few years now ? Incredible, but at least i understand why pvp is dead now.

I dont remember sorc to be weak EVER, streak was always incredibly annoying OP spell, and sorcs always had verry good dmg, so i just dont understand what happend, but i guess those noob sorcs you also mentioned been crying a LOT on forums and they got what they wanted, so they dont even need to read forums now, cos they are happy with their GOD mode, feeling tough in a game, killing it in the process.

I know youre against ward, weve discussed this, but youre still defending streaks stun, which is ALSO a problem, not at as ward, but still... That spell NEEDS to be changed, short its range, take its stun, make it cost more or something, but it shouldnt be here in current state, and nothing convinces me otherwise.... ZOS should probably have to do more testing on their own, listeting to community is verry good, but im old enough to remember X games where community destroyed game themselves cos of their stupidy, and here we can see one of such examples.

Wallar333 wrote: »

Bro, what youre describing about vulnerability, low res or against ganks, is a reality of any other class in the game, except for DKs maybe, but those are usually tanky, and dont have as much dmg as sorcs so [snip] ? ... Ive got ganked as NB, as a fkn NB in IC by sorcs i cant even count how many times, and i have ZERO shields and if i want to do ANY dmg, i need build for that and DMG spells equipped while i have to get to close range and dont have anything like streak to chase ppl or get away if wont go well, so again bro [snip]. Try to play any other class and youll see how it feels. Sorc is DMG it has a lot of dmg, which means it should be paper, if you want to be tank, wear plates lol.

[edited for profanity bypass]

I have over 1k hours each across multiple NB, DK, warden and plars and I have multiple necros and Arcanists (these 2 have less play because the playstyles just don't interest me outside of 1 or 2 abilities) and closer to 2k hours on NB and warden specifically (out of 12k hours total on steam alone, even more from before I linked to steam).
I've played all builds on these classes ranging from simple Torc builds (no procs, just class skills and stats) to full meta proc cheese builds including mag, stam and hybrid versions. I've never been just a "1 trick" player, I play everything because I'm always trying to see what I can do with all the classes to learn about them.
This is not to say I'm a complete expert, but that I do know what I am talking about and what things are like for the other classes. That is why I know for certain that a sorc without ward is mid tier at best and I am able to make that comparison due to having actual first-hand experience on all the classes as well as first hand experience playing sorc with and without ward. I can also say with certainty that the defenses available on those other classes especially the passive defenses (healing over time, buffs and debuffs) easily outpaces everything sorc has access to EXCEPT hardened ward (again this is from years of first hand experience).

As for your experience on NB, there's a lot to unpack here...
First, you seem to be playing in IC. There in lies the crux of a lot of your issues. Every PvP player that steps foot into IC (outside of events) knows how to hunt NBs from years of practice of being forced to, because IC is known to be NB central. Detection potions are mandatory in IC on any class, even NB.
Second, it also seems you have taken a break from PvP, how long was this break and which patches did this occur? This is relevant because it would explain a lot of your perspectives on sorc if your break was during U35-41 because magsorc was a complete joke of a spec during those patches (literally as bad if not worse than current necro) and was only ever seen at the crafting tables.

Third, if you have only recently returned to PvP, the meta has shifted massively since you last played. Everyone (outside of NB and Sorcs who specifically run Ward) is sitting minimum 35k health (nearly 40k health) now because of how broken (and easy) ball groups burst damage is with Rush of Agony and how absurd NB was from U35 until U41 where even 40k health didn't seem enough back then, not to mention how the changes to status effects during that time completely threw the damage meta out of the window since the best pressure is no longer about casting spammables with DoTs, but trying to proc as many status effects as possible as frequently as possible then combining this with a big hit from an ultimate (or NB spec bow). This is probably why you feel lacking in damage, the 25-30k threshold you were used that was obtained from actively casting abilities from when you last played is not working because the entire baseline stats as well as how to pressure opponents in PvP has completely shifted, which is not tied to sorcs getting buffed but a complete combat rework and group play power creep.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

But I haven't fought enough of them consistently enough to make a comment on whether they are an issue or not (they do seem very strong though from my limited experience fighting them this/last patch.

Bash builds are hard to pilot and easy for opponents to avoid, even if they can cheese duels. Sorc is the only class that can run a threatening Bash spec thanks to its speed and teleport, the others just swing at air. MagSorc is the opposite right now, relatively easy to pilot, relatively hard for opponents to avoid their constant range spam.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Well Streak used to have a 50% ramping cost until people started complaining that the cost was too much, hence ZOS lowering it to 33%.

Also how did I miss this, when did that happen? Must have been during one of my long breaks. Well there you go, that's why Streak wasn't a problem, and now is a problem. Put it back at 50% and we're good again.

That change happened almost 6 years ago now, patch 5.1.5 (Scalebreaker), i.e. Aug. 2019.

The only change to streak since then was in 5.2.5 Oct. 2019 where they nerfed streak from being a rectangle (like wall of elements) and made it a cone shape (like dawnbreaker or warden mushrooms).

The only other changes to bolt escape/morphs since 5.2.5 (2019) has been specifically to BoL morph that was basically just various bug fixes and the big nerf in Aug 2021 (7.1.5 or waking flame DLC) where BoL was changed to only absorb 1 projectile per second.

Here's a link to the UESP page on Bolt escape (and morphs) with all the information I've shown here on the changes to streak/BoL throughout this games life.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Bolt_Escape

Nerfing streak would cripple petsorcs in pvp even more. Magsorcs without pets have 10% more max magicka and heal on hardened ward. Magsorcs with pet don't have any of that.

Yes turtle, this game changed a LOT, but i didnt said im playing pvp again for a week, its not that hard to get knowledge about new builds/spells etc. And i mentioned IC just as example, not as the center of the problem, the center is the WHOLE pvp in its current state. Sorcs were always strong, its normal balance thing that should be in every game you have DMG ? ok, youll have less resists, youre ranged ? you shouldnt have more dmg than melee, etc.thats how its supposed to be working.
Sorc has a LOT of undodgable dmg, which many other classes can only dream about ATOP of streak and single target RANGE dmg i would say bigger than NBs, so what else sorc community wanted ? god mode ? well they got it, thats probably why no sorc is crying on forum now, all of them happy.
You say it could be seen just by crafting station, YES as you can see more-less ALL OTHER classes standing there now, cos sorcs are like a tumor on this game now. Ppl want to play and chill, play a balanced game, i have no probs with some classes to be a bit stronger, but KILLABLE, DKs usually kills me too in PVP, cos that class is simply stronger, BUT it has its disadvantages, its not IMMORTAL, so i dont have a problem with it.

HPs you mentioned, YES, before, there was a bit bigger dmg, less heals, NO DMG SHIELDS in pvp, and ppl also had less HP. PVP i remember was much faster, and ppl been dying a LOT, now ? Now you can see some random sorc fighting 1v5 with full HP and shielded streaking around, and no one can kill him. So you think that current sorc state is ok ? Ppl were crying about NBs for a long time, it was always strong class, but not that easy to play, and if you wanted really high dmg, you needed to have MUCH less resists than other classes, now i need around 30k resists so i can at least leave invis, otherwise i get streak 3 spells, haunting curse and im done. NBs dmg is still verry good, im not saying to boost it any way, cos it could only cause another trouble, its good as it is now, same as DKs and templars, i wouldnt touch those 3 for sure, never played necrom or warden, so i cant say what to do with those, but sorc in current state MUST be nerfed.

Sorc is now only class which can wear two DMG pvp sets, while still having enough survivability, while ANY other class MUST wear one DMG and one DEFF sets, which is just another **** dropped on the rest of the games community.
As i said before, ppl crying the MOST in EVERY game, are some sorcerers/wizards or some other magic noobs who thinks that cos they are MAGIC USERS, they SHOULD be in some GOD MODE, its every time omg, it destroyed X other games, and now its destroying this one, SAME story over again. As AGAIN, if sorcs wants to be tanky, they should wear plates, its simply DD supposed to be class, as DKs are TANK supposed to be class etc. SO WHAT, necros now sucking, arcanist DDs are sucking, wardens are sucking usually in PVP but none of them are crying that much as sorcs, probably cos bigger part of community are playing sorcs than all those other three classes together. While most endgame players just switched to sorcs dont minding they are supporting this cancer even more by doing so...

Why can't we all agree that zos needs to fix sorc asap and just let the responsible team work on a proper solution?

There is already plenty of feedback and most of them comes from seasoned pvp players.

Also, if Sorc becomes B tier will be great, since this is where most classes are atm. Much better than the only S tier class of the game.

Also, let's respect other players opinions. Most of the ppl here are seasoned pvp players, so stop pretending your opinion is better than others.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

That change happened almost 6 years ago now, patch 5.1.5 (Scalebreaker), i.e. Aug. 2019

Thanks, I had quit for around 2 years around that time.

With all the sustain creep, I see no reason 50% ramping Streak would be a problem. The goal would be for it to be a one-way ticket, you commit to attack or defense, and then you need to stop Streaking or you die because you're OOM. If you Streak spam in offensively, now you stand and fight, no free escape every time you bite off more than you can chew. If you Streak spam away defensively, you're out of the fight. Come back in 20 seconds if you want.

Sustain in general needs adjustment, but that's not limited to just sorc. There would need to be a big adjustments across the board to account for all the sustain currently available.

NB siphoning attacks (conversion + surge all in 1 ability?), warden netch, DK battle roar, champion slottables, orzogas food, there's just so much free sustain across the entire game right now (same with healing, mitigation, movement speed, damage and especially stacking mechanics).