BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is zero valor in zerging

Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.

The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.

Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.

Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.

So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.

And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....

You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..

We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.

Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.

Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.

I've definitely seen ball groups actively avoiding OUR group after we have had good hits on them. But we don't run from fights with other groups. We will pass on getting sandwiched between two groups fighting eachother, but that is more due to the fact that Blues are the #1 target when we are on the field, and Reds and Yellows in my server have a gentleman's agreement to focus Blues first. But that is more about not fighting when you clearly are at a disadvantage. That is something people complaining in this thread could learn about...

I'll say it agian, we can all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other, even when they are at the same keep.

You see, this is what I call a circular argument, and we're just not going to get anywhere with this conversation. Absolute waste of time. You act as if it is within my power (or anyone's power for that matter) to force ballgroups to fight eachother. There is no such power on this planet that will force two groups who don't want to fight eachother to fight eachother. End of story. The reality is that some groups will and some groups wont. I don't imagine that you've actually stuck around just to watch epic clashes between to ballgroups, but they do, in fact, happen. Quite regularly I will add, because those are the kind of fights that keep me playing the game.

Again, all ballgroups are are highly coordinated and otpimized groups. There is nothing wrong with that. Quite literally ANYONE can form a ballgroup, provided you know what sets and skills to run with each component and you have a willing crown. It's just like playing high-end PVE, but in a PVP atmosphere. Is it going to be easy to fight? No. Just like it wouldn't be easy to match up against higher ranked players in Battlegrounds. But that doesn't mean it is an unwinnable fight - if you know what you are doing. I'm guessing that you don't know how to combat these groups, and so rather than try to figure that out, you seek to have the Devs come down on them instead. Good move. Doesn't sound like you really want to invest and become a better player.

It is not as if Cyrodil has skill-based matchmaking, which I think is something you would be a proponent of to protect you from having to compete against higher-skilled players. That kind of PVP wouldn't work in Cyrodil, which is a large open battlefield with multiple objectives to try to control. Being that Cyrodil is such a large area with multiple objectives, again, it seems the solution would be for you to target a different objective that steers you away from the ballgroup...

It's a circle argument because you are trying to justify a poor play style. Most people don't have a problem with skilled groups. It is when ball groups just run the wall or spawn camp. Ball groups are NOT highly skilled, they exploit heal/shield stacking. If ESO had a PvP dev that behavior would have been fixed, if a trial could be exploited in such a manner, people would be banned. You don't have the "power" to control other groups, but you do have control over your own game play and what you defend on the forums.

Have you ever played in a ball group? It is far more than heal/shield stacking. Some groups do a great job of shield stacking, but my group does not stack shields. If you encounter these groups, there is actually a counter for that via scribing. Heal stacking helps, but it is NOT the heal stacking that is your biggest issue because enough burst dps will overwhelm the heal stacking. It is well timed heals from the supporting healers, smart use of healing ults, and great healer play that is making these groups hard to kill. Kill the healers and the dominoes start to fall. I know this for a fact because I have seen how the group does both WITH and WITHOUT a healer. If heal stacking is what made them strong, you would see groups dropping the healers in favor of more DPS or support/pulls.

The_Meathead wrote: »

Valentyne wrote: »

"Zerg on zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO"

You and other players like you are the reason Cyrodil is the way it currently is. Mindless cookie cutter builds spamming skills with no idea how to actually play the game. Keep fights are practically non-existent now because of the zerg mentality. Nobody will go anywhere without 20 people or even leave a keep to fight unless they have numbers just to fight a single person.

Ballgroups are the only thing keeping the map active because if anyone shows up at a keep beside a 12 man with comped gear they are immiediately zerged down by 20 lancers and abunch of block tanks. If it was just zerg vs zerg no alliance would ever make it past an outpost because all they do is die, respawn and run back every 30 seconds.

Zerg fights are probably the dumbest thing that has ever happened in Cyrodil, they are not real fights. 10 nightblades with tarnished hiding behind tanks or the generic warden using guard on a dark convergence necro that will ult drop 20 people and run away.

This one's kinda funny, because you addressed me and I'm literally none of the stuff you named in the thread.

Of the six builds I play on my Templar, only one could be considered Cookie Cutter (my own Rangeplar set up) and it's the one I play the absolute least, because I don't enjoy it as much. I engage in any size fight I find at any time, LOVE Keep fights, and enjoy the heck out of small group conflicts. Heck, I even send praise messages to people on other Factions if they impress me, win or lose, but most of all I'm constantly doing objectives with my Faction in any way possible.

That said, yes, I do think Zerg on Zerg is the most fun part of Cyrodiil and by extension ESO PvP. When a large number of players are attacking a Keep while another large group tries to defend, I love it. Milegate fights even more, and probably my very favorite is when the Gates get opened and we're defending a Scroll at its Temple with 20 or so people. For whatever reason, that last one's always the most fun to me.

Maybe you don't define that stuff as Zerg on Zerg?

As to your specifics, I agree Tarnished from Magblades at Ranged was no fun and thankfully got nerfed. Tanks are irritating, but I feel they have a place even if I too grumble while fighting them. Dark Convergence, Wardens running in circles around a pebble, etc, yeah, it can all be frustrating. Bombers, Gankers, too, but that's all part of the game.

So, it's funny to hear you say those things about parts of PvP that felt imbalanced or non-fun to you, and then defend Ball Groups of all things, because they're the big brother to all of that. They're the ultimate manipulation possible on the biggest scale grouping allows (minus the AD triple Ball Group night cappers, lately) of overpowered current mechanics.

Grouping, communication, and teamwork should always and will always have -enormous- inherent advantages, but the mechanics for stacking are simply too great right now - particularly when things that have managed to provide a threat to Ball Groups have repeatedly been nerfed. It's just out of hand.

You said, "Ballgroups are the only thing keeping the map active" and I think most would disagree strongly with that.

If anything, Ballgroups are probably one of the biggest drains on the population and activity in Cyrodiil, as players get tired of them and simply quit coming.

Joy_Division wrote: »

@The_Meathead

No worries. Your are just expressing your frustration and what a lot of people are thinking. I'm just saying, having been in groups on all three factions, that there always comes a time when the uncomfortable talk happens, becuase the group is getting wiped, loses, or too many mistakes are made. Those are extremely unpleasant and awkward situations that nobody wants any part of. I don't think non group players understand that is part of running in a group, and nobody wants to be judged in such a spotlight where there mistake or death or sub optimal play is put in front of their peers.

It is what it is.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The solution to these Cyrodiil Ball-Groups is simple, buff the Siege Weapons, make them instant kill regardless of how much health and defense you have, you are not a stone wall, you should not beable to survive getting hit by something designed to destroy them.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@The_Meathead

No worries. Your are just expressing your frustration and what a lot of people are thinking. I'm just saying, having been in groups on all three factions, that there always comes a time when the uncomfortable talk happens, becuase the group is getting wiped, loses, or too many mistakes are made. Those are extremely unpleasant and awkward situations that nobody wants any part of. I don't think non group players understand that is part of running in a group, and nobody wants to be judged in such a spotlight where there mistake or death or sub optimal play is put in front of their peers.

It is what it is.

I actually disagree with this, and your previous post, dramatically. BG's absolutely are a problem explicitly caused by improper balance design. Before I state my argument, let's get the obvious out of the way in simple terms...EVERY, and I mean every, single tool available to counter ball groups has been directly nerfed by ZOS to a point of being ineffective at the behest of Ball Group players complaining.

With that being said, many on this forum have expressed the idea that, "create your own group and see how easy it is...". Well, I did that. We literally created a random PUG group on the fly of 12 players. Assigned roles to each player, told them which gear and skills to run.
Skip to the end result...We were completely unstoppable the entire night against small scale organized, unorganized whole faction zergs, and other organized ball groups. The margin for error was literally so minimal that even one, two or three mistakes did not slow us down. This is a direct result to over-used unbalanced sets and build combinations. We used three healers, one tank, three bombers and t he rest damage dealers. Never wiped once the whole night.

It became so stale by the end of the night that, aside from some Randoms who thought they could He-Man us single handedly, no one would engage us and often would abandon keeps for us to PVD.

This gameplay does, in fact, ruin ESO AVA PVP and it needs to be addressed.

What exactly are you disagreeing with?

I will quote myself from this thread:

Joy_Division wrote:

I actually agree with just about everything @Iriidius is saying, that ZOS has very much buffed organized groups and has had a habit of removing any counter to them that has been mildly effective.

Anyone who has followed my posting history for the past 9 years will know I have consistently called out ZOS's poor balance when it comes it organized groups.

So often I argue against the poor balance of organized groups that "ball group" players are convinced I do not run in organized group.

"BXR_Lonestar wrote:

But your response shows that you don't think there is any place at all for organized and highly skilled and coordinated groups in Cyrodil.

Careful. Your bias is showing.

Ok, I get it. You made an impromptu ball group and found it a little too easy and too strong compared to what Cyrodiil’s randoms could do. I've been saying that since 2015

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The solution to these Cyrodiil Ball-Groups is simple, buff the Siege Weapons, make them instant kill regardless of how much health and defense you have, you are not a stone wall, you should not beable to survive getting hit by something designed to destroy them.

No. If seige 1 shots ball groups, its going to one shot everyone, which will create an entirely different problem.

I think sets like Seigemaster are kind of a step in the right direction, but they screwed up with the bonuses the set provides. Instead of giving damage reduction and seeing through walls, it should have granted 33% increased seige damage for non-ram seige. That allows players to trade off individual combat effectiveness for extra effectiveness while using seige.

But beyond that, the best way to beat a good ball group if you DON'T have a ball group yourself is a combined-arms fight, using seige, and foot soldiers alike to your advantage.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The solution to these Cyrodiil Ball-Groups is simple, buff the Siege Weapons, make them instant kill regardless of how much health and defense you have, you are not a stone wall, you should not beable to survive getting hit by something designed to destroy them.

No. If seige 1 shots ball groups, its going to one shot everyone, which will create an entirely different problem.

I think sets like Seigemaster are kind of a step in the right direction, but they screwed up with the bonuses the set provides. Instead of giving damage reduction and seeing through walls, it should have granted 33% increased seige damage for non-ram seige. That allows players to trade off individual combat effectiveness for extra effectiveness while using seige.

But beyond that, the best way to beat a good ball group if you DON'T have a ball group yourself is a combined-arms fight, using seige, and foot soldiers alike to your advantage.

And if seige can 1 shot everyone then it is a good thing.

Oil Barrels IMO need a damage increase to help prevent ram stacking.

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@The_Meathead

No worries. Your are just expressing your frustration and what a lot of people are thinking. I'm just saying, having been in groups on all three factions, that there always comes a time when the uncomfortable talk happens, becuase the group is getting wiped, loses, or too many mistakes are made. Those are extremely unpleasant and awkward situations that nobody wants any part of. I don't think non group players understand that is part of running in a group, and nobody wants to be judged in such a spotlight where there mistake or death or sub optimal play is put in front of their peers.

It is what it is.

I actually disagree with this, and your previous post, dramatically. BG's absolutely are a problem explicitly caused by improper balance design. Before I state my argument, let's get the obvious out of the way in simple terms...EVERY, and I mean every, single tool available to counter ball groups has been directly nerfed by ZOS to a point of being ineffective at the behest of Ball Group players complaining.

With that being said, many on this forum have expressed the idea that, "create your own group and see how easy it is...". Well, I did that. We literally created a random PUG group on the fly of 12 players. Assigned roles to each player, told them which gear and skills to run.
Skip to the end result...We were completely unstoppable the entire night against small scale organized, unorganized whole faction zergs, and other organized ball groups. The margin for error was literally so minimal that even one, two or three mistakes did not slow us down. This is a direct result to over-used unbalanced sets and build combinations. We used three healers, one tank, three bombers and t he rest damage dealers. Never wiped once the whole night.

It became so stale by the end of the night that, aside from some Randoms who thought they could He-Man us single handedly, no one would engage us and often would abandon keeps for us to PVD.

This gameplay does, in fact, ruin ESO AVA PVP and it needs to be addressed.

What exactly are you disagreeing with?

I will quote myself from this thread:

Joy_Division wrote:

I actually agree with just about everything @Iriidius is saying, that ZOS has very much buffed organized groups and has had a habit of removing any counter to them that has been mildly effective.

Anyone who has followed my posting history for the past 9 years will know I have consistently called out ZOS's poor balance when it comes it organized groups.

So often I argue against the poor balance of organized groups that "ball group" players are convinced I do not run in organized group.

"BXR_Lonestar wrote:

But your response shows that you don't think there is any place at all for organized and highly skilled and coordinated groups in Cyrodil.

Careful. Your bias is showing.

Ok, I get it. You made an impromptu ball group and found it a little too easy and too strong compared to what Cyrodiil’s randoms could do. I've been saying that since 2015

You are correct. I believe I misread the quote, or perhaps quoted the wrong person. There is so many topics on Ball Groups and usually a handful of people "defending" them.

I do apologize. Also, side note, @Joy_Division weren't you the Class Rep for Templars? If I am mistaken, it's been a few years at least. I left ESO in 2019 and returned in 2021/2022. Have not played Templar in PVP since U35 and it honestly is still a sore spot when I log on to play now...The class just isn't the same and feels like the only way to play it is as a much weaker version of a Sorc without shields and mobility.