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Oh, Ballgroups
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Sleepsin✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »There is zero valor in zerging
The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.
Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.
Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.
So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.
And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....
You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..
We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.
Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.
Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.
I've definitely seen ball groups actively avoiding OUR group after we have had good hits on them. But we don't run from fights with other groups. We will pass on getting sandwiched between two groups fighting eachother, but that is more due to the fact that Blues are the #1 target when we are on the field, and Reds and Yellows in my server have a gentleman's agreement to focus Blues first. But that is more about not fighting when you clearly are at a disadvantage. That is something people complaining in this thread could learn about...
I'll say it agian, we can all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other, even when they are at the same keep.
You see, this is what I call a circular argument, and we're just not going to get anywhere with this conversation. Absolute waste of time. You act as if it is within my power (or anyone's power for that matter) to force ballgroups to fight eachother. There is no such power on this planet that will force two groups who don't want to fight eachother to fight eachother. End of story. The reality is that some groups will and some groups wont. I don't imagine that you've actually stuck around just to watch epic clashes between to ballgroups, but they do, in fact, happen. Quite regularly I will add, because those are the kind of fights that keep me playing the game.
Again, all ballgroups are are highly coordinated and otpimized groups. There is nothing wrong with that. Quite literally ANYONE can form a ballgroup, provided you know what sets and skills to run with each component and you have a willing crown. It's just like playing high-end PVE, but in a PVP atmosphere. Is it going to be easy to fight? No. Just like it wouldn't be easy to match up against higher ranked players in Battlegrounds. But that doesn't mean it is an unwinnable fight - if you know what you are doing. I'm guessing that you don't know how to combat these groups, and so rather than try to figure that out, you seek to have the Devs come down on them instead. Good move. Doesn't sound like you really want to invest and become a better player.
It is not as if Cyrodil has skill-based matchmaking, which I think is something you would be a proponent of to protect you from having to compete against higher-skilled players. That kind of PVP wouldn't work in Cyrodil, which is a large open battlefield with multiple objectives to try to control. Being that Cyrodil is such a large area with multiple objectives, again, it seems the solution would be for you to target a different objective that steers you away from the ballgroup...
It's a circle argument because you are trying to justify a poor play style. Most people don't have a problem with skilled groups. It is when ball groups just run the wall or spawn camp. Ball groups are NOT highly skilled, they exploit heal/shield stacking. If ESO had a PvP dev that behavior would have been fixed, if a trial could be exploited in such a manner, people would be banned. You don't have the "power" to control other groups, but you do have control over your own game play and what you defend on the forums.
Have you ever played in a ball group? It is far more than heal/shield stacking. Some groups do a great job of shield stacking, but my group does not stack shields. If you encounter these groups, there is actually a counter for that via scribing. Heal stacking helps, but it is NOT the heal stacking that is your biggest issue because enough burst dps will overwhelm the heal stacking. It is well timed heals from the supporting healers, smart use of healing ults, and great healer play that is making these groups hard to kill. Kill the healers and the dominoes start to fall. I know this for a fact because I have seen how the group does both WITH and WITHOUT a healer. If heal stacking is what made them strong, you would see groups dropping the healers in favor of more DPS or support/pulls.
Yes I have played in a ball groups. 75% of the people in the group are expected spam their buffs, stack on crown, not speak and use proxy and ult when told.7 -
Kartalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Well there is such a thing as battle comms. There's also still back an forth conversations going between supports and such. Two sorcs setting up the negate order midcombat, if there's more than one barrier negotiating who goes first, things like that.Yes I have played in a ball groups. 75% of the people in the group are expected spam their buffs, stack on crown, not speak and use proxy and ult when told.
People calling out when another group is about to attack, pointing out other imminent threats. There shouldn't be just one person talking. One person calling movement sure, whether to use offensive ults or not, but not just complete silence otherwise.
Also we've always had great chats and laughs in the lead up to group start times, during breaks, and after the raid ends, literally every single ball group I've been a part of. Sure you need to be locked in during combat but we're still having fun and recognize that we enjoy playing this game together.
To the topic at hand, I'm of the same mind as @Joy_Division, that healing and shielding have gotten too far out of hand in our groups compared to what it had been in the past. Shielding only became a problem with the arcanist and scribing.- PC/NA
- Karllotta, AD Magplar, AR 50
- Hatched-In-Glacier, DC Magden, AR 44
- Miraliys, EP Warden, AR 35
- Kartalin, AD Stamblade, AR 35
- Miralys, AD Magsorc, AR 35
- Milthalas, EP Magblade, AR 35
- Kallenna, AD Magcro, AR 34
- Lyranais, EP Magsorc, AR 33
- Lemon Party - Meanest Girls - @ Kartalin - Youtube
5 -
Soraka✭✭✭✭✭The_Meathead wrote: »"Zerg on zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO"
You and other players like you are the reason Cyrodil is the way it currently is. Mindless cookie cutter builds spamming skills with no idea how to actually play the game. Keep fights are practically non-existent now because of the zerg mentality. Nobody will go anywhere without 20 people or even leave a keep to fight unless they have numbers just to fight a single person.
Ballgroups are the only thing keeping the map active because if anyone shows up at a keep beside a 12 man with comped gear they are immiediately zerged down by 20 lancers and abunch of block tanks. If it was just zerg vs zerg no alliance would ever make it past an outpost because all they do is die, respawn and run back every 30 seconds.
Zerg fights are probably the dumbest thing that has ever happened in Cyrodil, they are not real fights. 10 nightblades with tarnished hiding behind tanks or the generic warden using guard on a dark convergence necro that will ult drop 20 people and run away.
This one's kinda funny, because you addressed me and I'm literally none of the stuff you named in the thread.
Of the six builds I play on my Templar, only one could be considered Cookie Cutter (my own Rangeplar set up) and it's the one I play the absolute least, because I don't enjoy it as much. I engage in any size fight I find at any time, LOVE Keep fights, and enjoy the heck out of small group conflicts. Heck, I even send praise messages to people on other Factions if they impress me, win or lose, but most of all I'm constantly doing objectives with my Faction in any way possible.
That said, yes, I do think Zerg on Zerg is the most fun part of Cyrodiil and by extension ESO PvP. When a large number of players are attacking a Keep while another large group tries to defend, I love it. Milegate fights even more, and probably my very favorite is when the Gates get opened and we're defending a Scroll at its Temple with 20 or so people. For whatever reason, that last one's always the most fun to me.
Maybe you don't define that stuff as Zerg on Zerg?
As to your specifics, I agree Tarnished from Magblades at Ranged was no fun and thankfully got nerfed. Tanks are irritating, but I feel they have a place even if I too grumble while fighting them. Dark Convergence, Wardens running in circles around a pebble, etc, yeah, it can all be frustrating. Bombers, Gankers, too, but that's all part of the game.
So, it's funny to hear you say those things about parts of PvP that felt imbalanced or non-fun to you, and then defend Ball Groups of all things, because they're the big brother to all of that. They're the ultimate manipulation possible on the biggest scale grouping allows (minus the AD triple Ball Group night cappers, lately) of overpowered current mechanics.
Grouping, communication, and teamwork should always and will always have -enormous- inherent advantages, but the mechanics for stacking are simply too great right now - particularly when things that have managed to provide a threat to Ball Groups have repeatedly been nerfed. It's just out of hand.
You said, "Ballgroups are the only thing keeping the map active" and I think most would disagree strongly with that.
If anything, Ballgroups are probably one of the biggest drains on the population and activity in Cyrodiil, as players get tired of them and simply quit coming.
Very well said. I sense this entire discussion keeps getting muddied with defensiveness and accusations on both sides of the argument. I wish that we could keep in mind that multiple things can be true because it feels like it keeps becoming ball groups vs not ball groups when I believe there's a place for all of it.
Yes people can form their own ball groups. Yes people don't have to. Yes ball groups by nature should be more organized and difficult to defeat than pugs. However, the power creep and poor balance has become overwhelmingly a problem that should not be ignored, and due to blame shifting of ZOS mishandling of PVP onto ball groups, many ball groupers have become apologists for bad balance in order to defend their playstyle. It is not the same thing (balance vs playstyle). Even lag from ball groups is not their problem. It's a ZOS problem. I don't think the answer is everyone should become ball group players in order to pretend there is not a real balance issue that ball groups are maximizing to their benefit - which is their right to do. I think ZOS needs to evaluate the health of PVP and address it competently.
Can we please not cover up issues in order to defend our play styles and conversely can we please not blame issues on how players choose to play.
(That being said I think there's some petty behavior happening with some ball groups lately.)Edited by Soraka on November 15, 2024 9:41PM2 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Here's another analogy. The ball group is the high school varsity football team. The zerg is a random freshmen 3rd period gym class with 20 kids and half of them haven't reached puberty yet. Who are you putting your money on?BXR_Lonestar wrote: »At this point, I'm at a place where I just laugh and say "cry more please."
I'll counter your analogy with another one:
If ballgrouper's are the varsity and the zerglings the freshmen football players - then shouldn't the freshmen football players see that the varsity players are on the playing field and go elsewhere? It's not like they are being forced to stay there and fight the ballgroup. Cyrodil is a big map after all!
And if your alliance already owns most of the map and there isn't anywhere else to go, that is just the nature of the game. It is going to be incrementally more difficult to take keeps the less keeps the enemy has, because if they have any presence in the server, there are going to be higher concentrations of enemy players in fewer areas.
No.
There is only one field and that is Cyrodiil. If the "freshmen" could go play in another Cyrodiil absent all the organized groups, then would immediately home that campaign and never look back. Expecting everyone else to just leave when critical AvAvA objectives by a group that ZOS's poor combat balance has made too powerful is not a fair solution as it caters to only one type of PvP players (and not even all of them as I dislike playing with non-competitive rules, even when I am the beneficiary).
But your response shows that you don't think there is any place at all for organized and highly skilled and coordinated groups in Cyrodil.
Careful. Your bias is showing.
LOL. I have run in organized groups since 2014.
Yes, my "bias" shows. I am biased aginst bad balance.
If the answer to dealing with oppressively strong enemies fueled by highly dubious mechanics is too bad, leave, wait until we log off, that's all that needs to be said about how bad the balance is.
Tell you what. We'll stop ball grouping when people stop running 50 man zergs. It just isn't going to happen. Ball groups ARE the counter to big zergs and being outnumbered. If you don't have overwhelming numbers, then yes, your best answer is concede the objective and go elsewhere. Unless you want to spend your time in PVP allowing yourself to get frustrated.
You do realise the "50 man zergs" are a DIRECT RESULT of ball groups gaining too much power right?
We never used to see "50 man zergs" because they weren't needed unless there was a massive 3-way fight over a super important key objective (e.g. final keep battle to crown/dethrone an emp or defend a scroll temple) because stacking that many players from the faction into 1 spot just to fight 1 ball group was just terrible strategy, due to leaving the rest of the map completely undefended against the third alliance that would just walk in PvDoor the rest of the map.
It was only once ball groups got so grossly overpowered compared to everything else a few years back that a typical 20-30 person zerg could no longer do anything at all to ball groups, that we started to see faction stacks appear, because that was the ONLY play the zergs had to actually have a chance against a ball group.12 -
Tra_Lalan✭✭✭✭✭I don't blame the ballroup players for ruining the pvp expierience for everyone else. I blame the DEVs for having that kind of inbalance for such a long time in their game.
Whenever I try to give Cyro another try, after some time a ball group appears and then I remember why I quit before.
You just don't want a guy with a bazooka during a kickboxing competition, its not fun.8 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭I miss the days where you could attrition the begeezus out of resources with CC and poisons to lockdown even the most oppressive of ballgroups.2 -
Sleepsin✭✭✭✭This Wednesday ZOS is going to stream some PvP at 12:30 EST. Any chance they will go into Cyrodill and fight some ball groups?3
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Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »@The_Meathead
No worries. Your are just expressing your frustration and what a lot of people are thinking. I'm just saying, having been in groups on all three factions, that there always comes a time when the uncomfortable talk happens, becuase the group is getting wiped, loses, or too many mistakes are made. Those are extremely unpleasant and awkward situations that nobody wants any part of. I don't think non group players understand that is part of running in a group, and nobody wants to be judged in such a spotlight where there mistake or death or sub optimal play is put in front of their peers.
It is what it is.
I actually disagree with this, and your previous post, dramatically. BG's absolutely are a problem explicitly caused by improper balance design. Before I state my argument, let's get the obvious out of the way in simple terms...EVERY, and I mean every, single tool available to counter ball groups has been directly nerfed by ZOS to a point of being ineffective at the behest of Ball Group players complaining.
With that being said, many on this forum have expressed the idea that, "create your own group and see how easy it is...". Well, I did that. We literally created a random PUG group on the fly of 12 players. Assigned roles to each player, told them which gear and skills to run.
Skip to the end result...We were completely unstoppable the entire night against small scale organized, unorganized whole faction zergs, and other organized ball groups. The margin for error was literally so minimal that even one, two or three mistakes did not slow us down. This is a direct result to over-used unbalanced sets and build combinations. We used three healers, one tank, three bombers and t he rest damage dealers. Never wiped once the whole night.
It became so stale by the end of the night that, aside from some Randoms who thought they could He-Man us single handedly, no one would engage us and often would abandon keeps for us to PVD.
This gameplay does, in fact, ruin ESO AVA PVP and it needs to be addressed.11 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »There is zero valor in zerging
The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.
Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.
Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.
So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.
And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....
I think the point is that a group of 12 should absolutely NOT be able to take on a group of 30. Organized or not. There is no drawbacks to running a comp BG and it isn't even difficult now because the sets and skill builds are too easy to come by and carry the whole group.
No one is saying to "nerf Ball Groups". What people are asking for, is for tactics used by BG's to be adjusted. For a simple example, Snowtreaders gives 100% uptime on snare immunity. Simple fix is to reduce the effectiveness per group member - 100, 95, 90, 85, 80, etc.
Another example, is to cap cross heals and shields. Some even say unless you are a designated Healer role, with drawbacks to damage output, etc.
The fact that you cannot slow down a BG, you have such a tiny CC window (at which point most are immediately shielded automatically) damage reduction to all forms make BG's quite invincible. There is no current drawbacks to running an organized BG with the current compositions because the gear run has zero draw backs.4 -
TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The solution to these Cyrodiil Ball-Groups is simple, buff the Siege Weapons, make them instant kill regardless of how much health and defense you have, you are not a stone wall, you should not beable to survive getting hit by something designed to destroy them.Edited by TX12001rwb17_ESO on November 18, 2024 6:31AM0 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Well there is such a thing as battle comms. There's also still back an forth conversations going between supports and such. Two sorcs setting up the negate order midcombat, if there's more than one barrier negotiating who goes first, things like that.Yes I have played in a ball groups. 75% of the people in the group are expected spam their buffs, stack on crown, not speak and use proxy and ult when told.
People calling out when another group is about to attack, pointing out other imminent threats. There shouldn't be just one person talking. One person calling movement sure, whether to use offensive ults or not, but not just complete silence otherwise.
Also we've always had great chats and laughs in the lead up to group start times, during breaks, and after the raid ends, literally every single ball group I've been a part of. Sure you need to be locked in during combat but we're still having fun and recognize that we enjoy playing this game together.
To the topic at hand, I'm of the same mind as @Joy_Division, that healing and shielding have gotten too far out of hand in our groups compared to what it had been in the past. Shielding only became a problem with the arcanist and scribing.
If you only have one person talking, there is a problem because everyone needs to have their head on a swivel, especially when there is more than one ballgroup on the field. We always call out large groups of enemy combatants and where they are headed.
As for heal stacking, I'm not going to say it doesn't help, but if all you had in a ball group is people spamming radiating regeneration and echoing vigor, it wouldn't be nearly enough to let you survive seige and heavy burst damage from other sources. That is NOT the problem, although it is the easy thing to call out and spin as an "exploit." But without a good healer (or several) who know how to time up burst heals in anticipation of incoming burst damage, the ball group would still get wiped out. If the healers mistime this, it also doesn't go particularly well. When the heals are on point, we're nigh unstoppable, and when we're not, we're ordinary.
This is also true in small group PVP settings too. With a healer, you can take on a lot more than you ever could without a healer and relying on heal stacking alone.1 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »The solution to these Cyrodiil Ball-Groups is simple, buff the Siege Weapons, make them instant kill regardless of how much health and defense you have, you are not a stone wall, you should not beable to survive getting hit by something designed to destroy them.
No. If seige 1 shots ball groups, its going to one shot everyone, which will create an entirely different problem.
I think sets like Seigemaster are kind of a step in the right direction, but they screwed up with the bonuses the set provides. Instead of giving damage reduction and seeing through walls, it should have granted 33% increased seige damage for non-ram seige. That allows players to trade off individual combat effectiveness for extra effectiveness while using seige.
But beyond that, the best way to beat a good ball group if you DON'T have a ball group yourself is a combined-arms fight, using seige, and foot soldiers alike to your advantage.2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@The_Meathead
No worries. Your are just expressing your frustration and what a lot of people are thinking. I'm just saying, having been in groups on all three factions, that there always comes a time when the uncomfortable talk happens, becuase the group is getting wiped, loses, or too many mistakes are made. Those are extremely unpleasant and awkward situations that nobody wants any part of. I don't think non group players understand that is part of running in a group, and nobody wants to be judged in such a spotlight where there mistake or death or sub optimal play is put in front of their peers.
It is what it is.
I actually disagree with this, and your previous post, dramatically. BG's absolutely are a problem explicitly caused by improper balance design. Before I state my argument, let's get the obvious out of the way in simple terms...EVERY, and I mean every, single tool available to counter ball groups has been directly nerfed by ZOS to a point of being ineffective at the behest of Ball Group players complaining.
With that being said, many on this forum have expressed the idea that, "create your own group and see how easy it is...". Well, I did that. We literally created a random PUG group on the fly of 12 players. Assigned roles to each player, told them which gear and skills to run.
Skip to the end result...We were completely unstoppable the entire night against small scale organized, unorganized whole faction zergs, and other organized ball groups. The margin for error was literally so minimal that even one, two or three mistakes did not slow us down. This is a direct result to over-used unbalanced sets and build combinations. We used three healers, one tank, three bombers and t he rest damage dealers. Never wiped once the whole night.
It became so stale by the end of the night that, aside from some Randoms who thought they could He-Man us single handedly, no one would engage us and often would abandon keeps for us to PVD.
This gameplay does, in fact, ruin ESO AVA PVP and it needs to be addressed.
What exactly are you disagreeing with?
I will quote myself from this thread:Joy_Division wrote:I actually agree with just about everything @Iriidius is saying, that ZOS has very much buffed organized groups and has had a habit of removing any counter to them that has been mildly effective.
Anyone who has followed my posting history for the past 9 years will know I have consistently called out ZOS's poor balance when it comes it organized groups.
So often I argue against the poor balance of organized groups that "ball group" players are convinced I do not run in organized group."BXR_Lonestar wrote:But your response shows that you don't think there is any place at all for organized and highly skilled and coordinated groups in Cyrodil.
Careful. Your bias is showing.
Ok, I get it. You made an impromptu ball group and found it a little too easy and too strong compared to what Cyrodiil’s randoms could do. I've been saying that since 2015
3 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@The_Meathead
No worries. Your are just expressing your frustration and what a lot of people are thinking. I'm just saying, having been in groups on all three factions, that there always comes a time when the uncomfortable talk happens, becuase the group is getting wiped, loses, or too many mistakes are made. Those are extremely unpleasant and awkward situations that nobody wants any part of. I don't think non group players understand that is part of running in a group, and nobody wants to be judged in such a spotlight where there mistake or death or sub optimal play is put in front of their peers.
It is what it is.
I actually disagree with this, and your previous post, dramatically. BG's absolutely are a problem explicitly caused by improper balance design. Before I state my argument, let's get the obvious out of the way in simple terms...EVERY, and I mean every, single tool available to counter ball groups has been directly nerfed by ZOS to a point of being ineffective at the behest of Ball Group players complaining.
With that being said, many on this forum have expressed the idea that, "create your own group and see how easy it is...". Well, I did that. We literally created a random PUG group on the fly of 12 players. Assigned roles to each player, told them which gear and skills to run.
Skip to the end result...We were completely unstoppable the entire night against small scale organized, unorganized whole faction zergs, and other organized ball groups. The margin for error was literally so minimal that even one, two or three mistakes did not slow us down. This is a direct result to over-used unbalanced sets and build combinations. We used three healers, one tank, three bombers and t he rest damage dealers. Never wiped once the whole night.
It became so stale by the end of the night that, aside from some Randoms who thought they could He-Man us single handedly, no one would engage us and often would abandon keeps for us to PVD.
This gameplay does, in fact, ruin ESO AVA PVP and it needs to be addressed.
What exactly are you disagreeing with?
I will quote myself from this thread:Joy_Division wrote:I actually agree with just about everything @Iriidius is saying, that ZOS has very much buffed organized groups and has had a habit of removing any counter to them that has been mildly effective.
Anyone who has followed my posting history for the past 9 years will know I have consistently called out ZOS's poor balance when it comes it organized groups.
So often I argue against the poor balance of organized groups that "ball group" players are convinced I do not run in organized group."BXR_Lonestar wrote:But your response shows that you don't think there is any place at all for organized and highly skilled and coordinated groups in Cyrodil.
Careful. Your bias is showing.
Ok, I get it. You made an impromptu ball group and found it a little too easy and too strong compared to what Cyrodiil’s randoms could do. I've been saying that since 2015
You are correct. I believe I misread the quote, or perhaps quoted the wrong person. There is so many topics on Ball Groups and usually a handful of people "defending" them.
I do apologize. Also, side note, @Joy_Division weren't you the Class Rep for Templars? If I am mistaken, it's been a few years at least. I left ESO in 2019 and returned in 2021/2022. Have not played Templar in PVP since U35 and it honestly is still a sore spot when I log on to play now...The class just isn't the same and feels like the only way to play it is as a much weaker version of a Sorc without shields and mobility.2 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭Maybe they could create an alchemical poison that when triggered completely negates any healing received for a duration.
A Catapult that causes the hit target(s) to be unable to be healed for a duration.
Maybe an Ultimate? (Sorcs Negate unfortunately doesn't move).
Not just defile to reduce by a percentage, but to completely suppress any healing for a short period. (perhaps a longer period if specced into it such as an alchemical poison source of the debuff + Assassin's Guile).
Though I imagine well organized ball-groups have cleanses aplenty.0 -
TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »The solution to these Cyrodiil Ball-Groups is simple, buff the Siege Weapons, make them instant kill regardless of how much health and defense you have, you are not a stone wall, you should not beable to survive getting hit by something designed to destroy them.
No. If seige 1 shots ball groups, its going to one shot everyone, which will create an entirely different problem.
I think sets like Seigemaster are kind of a step in the right direction, but they screwed up with the bonuses the set provides. Instead of giving damage reduction and seeing through walls, it should have granted 33% increased seige damage for non-ram seige. That allows players to trade off individual combat effectiveness for extra effectiveness while using seige.
But beyond that, the best way to beat a good ball group if you DON'T have a ball group yourself is a combined-arms fight, using seige, and foot soldiers alike to your advantage.
And if seige can 1 shot everyone then it is a good thing.Edited by TX12001rwb17_ESO on November 18, 2024 10:09PM0 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »The solution to these Cyrodiil Ball-Groups is simple, buff the Siege Weapons, make them instant kill regardless of how much health and defense you have, you are not a stone wall, you should not beable to survive getting hit by something designed to destroy them.
No. If seige 1 shots ball groups, its going to one shot everyone, which will create an entirely different problem.
I think sets like Seigemaster are kind of a step in the right direction, but they screwed up with the bonuses the set provides. Instead of giving damage reduction and seeing through walls, it should have granted 33% increased seige damage for non-ram seige. That allows players to trade off individual combat effectiveness for extra effectiveness while using seige.
But beyond that, the best way to beat a good ball group if you DON'T have a ball group yourself is a combined-arms fight, using seige, and foot soldiers alike to your advantage.
And if seige can 1 shot everyone then it is a good thing.
Oil Barrels IMO need a damage increase to help prevent ram stacking.0 -
Theist_VII✭✭✭✭✭
✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »The solution to these Cyrodiil Ball-Groups is simple, buff the Siege Weapons, make them instant kill regardless of how much health and defense you have, you are not a stone wall, you should not beable to survive getting hit by something designed to destroy them.
No. If seige 1 shots ball groups, its going to one shot everyone, which will create an entirely different problem.
I think sets like Seigemaster are kind of a step in the right direction, but they screwed up with the bonuses the set provides. Instead of giving damage reduction and seeing through walls, it should have granted 33% increased seige damage for non-ram seige. That allows players to trade off individual combat effectiveness for extra effectiveness while using seige.
But beyond that, the best way to beat a good ball group if you DON'T have a ball group yourself is a combined-arms fight, using seige, and foot soldiers alike to your advantage.
And if seige can 1 shot everyone then it is a good thing.
Oil Barrels IMO need a damage increase to help prevent ram stacking.
Ball groups are also going to be more likely to run Siege Shield than your average player.0 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭Theist_VII wrote: »Avran_Sylt wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »The solution to these Cyrodiil Ball-Groups is simple, buff the Siege Weapons, make them instant kill regardless of how much health and defense you have, you are not a stone wall, you should not beable to survive getting hit by something designed to destroy them.
No. If seige 1 shots ball groups, its going to one shot everyone, which will create an entirely different problem.
I think sets like Seigemaster are kind of a step in the right direction, but they screwed up with the bonuses the set provides. Instead of giving damage reduction and seeing through walls, it should have granted 33% increased seige damage for non-ram seige. That allows players to trade off individual combat effectiveness for extra effectiveness while using seige.
But beyond that, the best way to beat a good ball group if you DON'T have a ball group yourself is a combined-arms fight, using seige, and foot soldiers alike to your advantage.
And if seige can 1 shot everyone then it is a good thing.
Oil Barrels IMO need a damage increase to help prevent ram stacking.
Ball groups are also going to be more likely to run Siege Shield than your average player.
Siege shield also needs to be reworked, it is used most effektively by sieging zergs and ballgroups who are unkillable for defenders without siege and exactly the people siege should be used against while outnumbered soloplayers and smallscaler cant sacrifice a slot for siegeshield nor stay in it while being chased by multiple times their number.
Siege should be used to defend keeps against zergs outnumbered or against ballgroups rather than to zerg down players and siege shield should not protect only the former.
Give it a solo morph that also has other use to make it worth slotting.0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@The_Meathead
No worries. Your are just expressing your frustration and what a lot of people are thinking. I'm just saying, having been in groups on all three factions, that there always comes a time when the uncomfortable talk happens, becuase the group is getting wiped, loses, or too many mistakes are made. Those are extremely unpleasant and awkward situations that nobody wants any part of. I don't think non group players understand that is part of running in a group, and nobody wants to be judged in such a spotlight where there mistake or death or sub optimal play is put in front of their peers.
It is what it is.
I actually disagree with this, and your previous post, dramatically. BG's absolutely are a problem explicitly caused by improper balance design. Before I state my argument, let's get the obvious out of the way in simple terms...EVERY, and I mean every, single tool available to counter ball groups has been directly nerfed by ZOS to a point of being ineffective at the behest of Ball Group players complaining.
With that being said, many on this forum have expressed the idea that, "create your own group and see how easy it is...". Well, I did that. We literally created a random PUG group on the fly of 12 players. Assigned roles to each player, told them which gear and skills to run.
Skip to the end result...We were completely unstoppable the entire night against small scale organized, unorganized whole faction zergs, and other organized ball groups. The margin for error was literally so minimal that even one, two or three mistakes did not slow us down. This is a direct result to over-used unbalanced sets and build combinations. We used three healers, one tank, three bombers and t he rest damage dealers. Never wiped once the whole night.
It became so stale by the end of the night that, aside from some Randoms who thought they could He-Man us single handedly, no one would engage us and often would abandon keeps for us to PVD.
This gameplay does, in fact, ruin ESO AVA PVP and it needs to be addressed.
What exactly are you disagreeing with?
I will quote myself from this thread:Joy_Division wrote:I actually agree with just about everything @Iriidius is saying, that ZOS has very much buffed organized groups and has had a habit of removing any counter to them that has been mildly effective.
Anyone who has followed my posting history for the past 9 years will know I have consistently called out ZOS's poor balance when it comes it organized groups.
So often I argue against the poor balance of organized groups that "ball group" players are convinced I do not run in organized group."BXR_Lonestar wrote:But your response shows that you don't think there is any place at all for organized and highly skilled and coordinated groups in Cyrodil.
Careful. Your bias is showing.
Ok, I get it. You made an impromptu ball group and found it a little too easy and too strong compared to what Cyrodiil’s randoms could do. I've been saying that since 2015
You are correct. I believe I misread the quote, or perhaps quoted the wrong person. There is so many topics on Ball Groups and usually a handful of people "defending" them.
I do apologize. Also, side note, @Joy_Division weren't you the Class Rep for Templars? If I am mistaken, it's been a few years at least. I left ESO in 2019 and returned in 2021/2022. Have not played Templar in PVP since U35 and it honestly is still a sore spot when I log on to play now...The class just isn't the same and feels like the only way to play it is as a much weaker version of a Sorc without shields and mobility.
All good. There certainly is a lot of frustration out there and a lot of things being said that are weak defenses of ZOS's current balance with regards to organized groups. I totally get it. Hopefully that a lot of battleground players are also voicing dissatisfaction, maybe that will move ZOS to make some needed changes.
I was a rep back about the time you left and Templar is a sore spot for me like it is for you. Some of my best memories gaming was just messing around on a random Wednesday night in like 2017 by myself on my old Rattlecage Templar build in Cyrodiil. That it was possible to do that without constantly having organized groups just hole themselves up on Arrius 3rd floor is one of the main reasons I agree with people who complain about the balance. I don;t think a person in a similar position in ESO 2024 can ever have the experiences and memoires I did in 2017.4 -
Stridig✭✭✭✭✭
✭Theist_VII wrote: »Avran_Sylt wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »The solution to these Cyrodiil Ball-Groups is simple, buff the Siege Weapons, make them instant kill regardless of how much health and defense you have, you are not a stone wall, you should not beable to survive getting hit by something designed to destroy them.
No. If seige 1 shots ball groups, its going to one shot everyone, which will create an entirely different problem.
I think sets like Seigemaster are kind of a step in the right direction, but they screwed up with the bonuses the set provides. Instead of giving damage reduction and seeing through walls, it should have granted 33% increased seige damage for non-ram seige. That allows players to trade off individual combat effectiveness for extra effectiveness while using seige.
But beyond that, the best way to beat a good ball group if you DON'T have a ball group yourself is a combined-arms fight, using seige, and foot soldiers alike to your advantage.
And if seige can 1 shot everyone then it is a good thing.
Oil Barrels IMO need a damage increase to help prevent ram stacking.
Ball groups are also going to be more likely to run Siege Shield than your average player.
I wouldn't be so quick to judge the "average" player in Cyrodiil. The average player has been in Cyrodiil for a long time. At this point the only people who remain are veterans with very small percentage of the population made up of new to Cyrodiil people.Enemy to many
Friend to all2 -
The_Meathead✭✭✭✭I don't think that adding a new set, tweaking sieges, or pumping up a poison or something similar is the answer to BGs.
As has been stated in this thread and others, it's a rare thing for Ball Groups not to adopt whatever is designed to destroy them and make use of it themselves - and, frustratingly, on the rare occasion something has truly been detrimental to Ball Groups especially, it hasn't gone long without a nerf.
The whole "here's a set to combat X!" doesn't seem to work for long if at all, imo. It's either a tepid attempt or it's quickly nerfed if it's tremendously effective.
I'd -much- rather the Devs look instead on limiting the stacking of HoTs, Shields(!!), and maybe nerf the heck out of Snowtreaders or other outliers that make the playstyle so much stronger in this meta than it once was.
Then Sieges can more against them, Bombers go back to being effective against BGs, and so forth.3 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭I dont attack outnumbered players on sight Xv1, but almost every player I see in Cyrodiil/IC/BG does it. But interesting that disagreeing with you and ballgroups automatically makes people toxic zerglings.
So what exactly is the problem at the end of the day? Organized group play IS the answer to hard zerging.
Take organized group play outside of the equation and its nothing but a numbers game.There are still ballgroups that zergsurf, but actually ballgroups are big enaugh to zerg on their own without a zerg and that is also what I mainly referred to as ballgroups zerging.
I already said that a ballgroup can also zerg people down without a zerg because zerging as a verb means outnumbering your opponents no matter if done by an actual (disorganized) zerg or another kind of groups but you ignored that.
12 players is more than enaugh to overwhelm smaller groups or solo players with numbers.
Even when a ballgroup is zergsurfing an actual zerg you usually cant deal with those with a bomber because they get crosshealed by ballgroup and will heal to full midbomb.
If you go ahead and randomly engage in a group when they're 12 on a flag, or try to dismount a full group while solo, or try your luck and ult dump them as 3, why does it even come as a surprise when you get killed? If anything it's no different from attacking a random 12-man.
Who said I engaged them? Why do players always when someone says he got zerged assume he engaged the zerg/ballgroup? Most of the time I get zerged I did not engage the zerg/ballgroup.
When I don’t want to fight than I don‘t engage but that doesnt mean they don‘t engage me.
I had a ballgroup ride by when I was in hidden in the middle of nowhere trying to logout until the last member saw me and they all came from behind jumping and ultidumping me when neither attacking them then nor ever before.
I joined ballgroup hoping it would fight against the blue and yellow zerg on blackreach and defend EP keeps against them but insteat of just waiting until they siege a keep they always travel over whole map to take blackboot alerting all defenders of the faction and creating the zerg they fight themselves while homekeeps get taken by other faction. Or they go to a balanced campaign interrupting fight between 2 zergs. Or they join strongest alliance zerg and PvDoor the map themselves.
They are rarely there when you need them to kill a zerg and often on enemy side when they already outnumber you or when you have an balanced fights to ruin it.
Who benefits from ballgroups beeing „the answer to hard zerging“? Solo players and smallscalers get farmed by ballgroups as much as (by) the zerglings. There is a reason most solo and smallscalers hate ballgroups.
Organized group play is not the answer to hard zerging when hard zerging is also the only answer to organized group play.
In small groups the stats and healing/shielding you get from crossbuff(set)s, crosshealing and crossshielding are much lower than in a ballgroup and you can time your attacks only from 2/3 people which is also possible without voicechat. Sure organization still gives big advantage but nowhere near as big as in a ballgroup.
If the unorganized are much better players or catch the organized offguard they will win. 2 good 1vXer will win against Mr&Mrs Average. If you 1v2 and a random nb bursts one of the 2 to low life than you finish him and 2v1 the second you win. They do not have enaugh groupbuffs and crossheal/shielding to prevent that.
Already 2v2ed or 3v3ed some organized duos/trios together with randoms,
organisation does not give such a big advantage in 2v2/3v3 when crossheals, shields and buffs you can share are very limited compared to ballgroup and you can time your attacks only between 2/3 people which is also possible without voicechat.
Organization gives a gigantic advantage no matter the size. If a NB leaves you with 20% HP after a combo and then it's a 50/50 with the execute, that 20% HP won't matter if it's gonna be timed with a DK stun and whip.
If they are 3 decent solo players and just random/ ungrouped not knowing each other rather than total noobs they consistently beat 1 1vXer.
But 36 decent solo/smallscale/PuG players still get constantly farmed for not beeing in an organised group with group buffs and heal/shield stacking.
I did say 3 decent solo players not 3 capable/good 1vXers. Could also be 3 decent PuGs/smallscalers but decent players usually do not play in PuGs and 3 PuGs for some people are not 3 randoms nor are 3 smallscalers. But should not be 3 uncompetitive players who usually (get chosen by 1vXers to) get 1vXed because they do not know how to deal dmg/heal/block and get killed by predictable burst combo + extra attacks like
2 dizzy+subassault+dawnbreaker+executioner without defending themself and therefore just bad players.
But it is unlikely that 36 players (which is half a faction) fighting a ballgroup are all bad players and there are no decent ones. 36 decent solo players will still loose to a ballgroup because they do not have group builds.
If a 1vXer wins a 1v3 it is because he is much better than the players he fights.
If a ballgroup wins a 12v36 it is because they have group buffs making every of the 12 stronger than an emperor.
If i told you something like "Group PvE is OP because they have all these cross buffs that make em too OP! We should have options as unorganized groups to have way more DPS if we're playing better!"
OR
"The sets end game PvE'ers use are too OP and they have unfair DPS! Me and my mates should have equal DPS on our solo maelstorm arena builds if we play better!"
Maybe you'd eventually get how completely irrelevant that statement is and sounds.
Also, what exactly made you think you play better? How do you quantify it, precisely? Did you duel people from said groups and won consistently? Did you outperform any of those experienced players in a group scenario?
PvE groups also having cross buff(set)s giving them way more dps than solo players can achieve does not make ballgroups balanced or make my statement irrelevant. Actually it shows how strong crossbuff(set)s are if they more than double a players dps despite him doing almost the same rotation. Can also see this very well at training dummies where 40k/35k dps was top on 3m/6m dummy before they introduced raid dummy with 100k top dps. Now it is at 140k while dummy parser dps on 3/6m dummy is rarely measured anymore.
You cant tell me these group buffs make no difference and groups having higher dmg comes only from timing attacks and having better players. In Trials most DDs do not even have to time their rotation and VMA runners are top players.
In PvE this is not a problem because trial NPCs are only unsentient NPCs and build for trial groups but in Pvp ballgroups farm sentient players not build for ballgroup fights.
Other than PvE players who can choose easier nondlc/normal Trials PvP players farmed by ballgroups also cant choose to play other open world PvP content not balanced around ballgroups because all PvP content except battlegrounds and duelling can be played by ballgroups.
I didnt say that I play better but I 1v1ed or even 1vXed a few ballgrouplers and many others never enter Cyrodiil without ballgroup. Sure there are also top players in ballgroup same as there are top players getting farmed by ballgroups. Actually you started comparing organized groups with unorganized groups of same size, I think it is irrelevant if even a small advantage decides an equal numbered fight but ballgroups have a gigantic advantage letting them more regularly win against multiple times their numbers of nonballgroupler than 1vXers against trashplayers.
6-man groups who can take down a ballgroup sound very much like a miniballgroup.
Your guild leader wrote me I was moved from regular member to replacement for not playing with them regularely and not for playing bad.
Who has no valid opinion are the ballgrouplers pretending to be solo players while complaining they got killed by azureblight.
Nice how you get condescending and personally insulting because I do not defend ballgroups after playing in one and remember that I left but not why. Guess you cant imagine that anyone would leave a ballgroup for other reasons than beeing too bad.
When the experienced players who understand how the game works lie and spread misinformation to protect the carries they (ab)use and get every counter nerfed like ballgrouplers who falsely claimed they get killed by azurebligh while playing solo when they actually played in ballgroup I expect the game to not be balanced around these players.
But there are a lot of experienced player who understand how the game works and that ballgroups are overperforming and opposing them.
But in your opinion everyone opposing ballgroups is automatically bad player to unskilled to play in one.
So you try to prove your made-up categorizarion of me as a skillless zergling who can only Xv1 and is too stupid to play in a ballgroup with made-up numbers even admitting yourself that you do not know the real numbers.
It is hard to imagine that you still remember my skill niveau after 1.5 years althought you only joined the discord 2 weeks before I left and I missed most of the raids during that time raiding maybe once with you.
Nah the categorization of you as a
is based on your logs which i have a handful of and i literally just described, and which fit the mentioned label rather accurately. Yes, it looks awful enough that one would be tempted to dismiss it as imaginary data, but that's not the case. You might as well tell me you're top DD in your random vet Spindleclutch 2 with 25k DPS and it wouldn't be much of a difference.skillless zerg
Only guild members have access to these logs so your description could be completely fake.
Do these logs also show that I often played only a part of the raid and therefore my dps/healing in the logs often is from only a part of the raid.
RDK showed that I had highest healing and 2nd highest dps of all dds in your group in most fights I was.
Actually the 1 dd who had higher dps than me left 1 day after me and now your best dd is someone who had lower dps and healing than me in most fights.
Even when someone had half his skills missing it proves nothing as in lag enemies shown alive and in range on your screen when you cast whirlwind are often already dead or out of range on server or die before the skill goes off, subassault often gets (re)castet when leader cancels or delays a bomb and heal uptime is still counted when stuck in combat with no enemy and no dmg to outheal.
I actually remember your ballgroup often standing around without plan or jumping solo players overkilling them so that most skills hit nothing after solo player dies.
Sometimes server queues up multiple skills letting them go off later causing you to cast them multiple times.
Playing bad and missing skills does not automatically make players zerglings. Attacking outnumbered players makes players zerglings.
So you think players disapproving ballgroups are acting wrong when asking for balance changes to ballgroups althought ballgroups asked for balance changes to azureblight despite azureblight beeing much more niche and counterable and less used and supressing to ballgroups than ballgroups to all other playstiles with some ballgrouplers pretending to be solo players asking for balance changes to azureblight for soloplay when actually soloplayers were against azureblight nerf as it barely damages them.
Sure you can disagree with me but you insult me as an inept Xv1er unable to use a ballgroup build and denying the validity of my opinion without real knowledge of my skill niveau to discredit me and my opinion and punish me for disagreeing.
The main complain people had about azureblight was the unblockable aspect - unlike any other tool groups use, this had 0 counterplay potential. And no one was worried about zergs running it. The prospect of being chased by an organized group running that on top of zerg was the scary aspect.
If anything, you should be really happy that azure got nerfed. I know several people who wanted to experiment with azure for an organized setup, and the numbers a skilled group could pull with that was way above the standard group comp ( it also randomly happens that azure builds were initially used in PvP by ballgroups in attempts to optimize around it, and it became increasingly popular when groups started to bully other groups with it - you can ask some NA players how it felt when one of their top groups started using this ).
You can also tell me how many groups you personally killed with azure. Im simply curious, as i've only been tinkering with theorycrafting around azure since March or so, and i only ran it for like 2 months with a full azure setup in my group, but the data and experience on which you base your arguments seems more detailed and thoroughly tested than mine.
Groups use fear stun which is unblockable allowing the whole group to avoid block mitigation with all their attacks and will probably have one player using the new set reducing opponent block mitigation against everyone including whole ballgroup.
What makes you think a ballgroup should always win against another organized group build specifically to counter them on top of a zerg.
I do not stack with other players and never got killed by azureblight while ballgroups pull me into their burst when I was standing nowhere near other players so why should I be happy that it got nerfed.
It was ballgroups asking for the set to get nerfed claiming it killed them and made playing as a group impossible and falsely claiming it also destroyed smallscale and solo players.
Why do I have to prove their claim that azureblight could kill ballgroups?
If it didnt even effektively killed ballgroup that makes ballgroups starting a misinformation campaign to get it nerfed even worse as even unreliable counters are not allowed to exist.
3 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭
The main complain people had about azureblight was the unblockable aspect - unlike any other tool groups use, this had 0 counterplay potential.
Wrong.
It had an easier counterplay mechanic than plaguebreak.... Split up!
You're just against that because ball grouping behavior relies on being stacked on crown.
Split up and AB does nothing. Stack up, and you get punished.
Where did I ever mention being against it, again?
Splitting was never an issue. The only time when it was difficult to deal with was when you had siege + + azure + 3rd form of pressure like a zerg or another group pushing you.
Like I already mentioned, I ran azureblight in my group for ~2 months with 6/10 people on azure and ranged damage so we don't care about stacking. The group i lead is very far from being the best there is, and considering the gigantic numbers i pulled with that setup, you have not a single clue how happy you should be it got nerfed before the top groups swapped to that kind of composition.
I really dont get how people fail to comprehend that whatever works vs a ballgroup will generally work better ON a ballgroup, as the whole concept of the group is built around heavily outnumbered fights.
Maybe „people fail to comprehend that whatever works vs a ballgroup will generally work better ON a ballgroup“ because it is not necessarily the case and most of these tools either intentionally work also or even better on zerg or at least noone really tried to design them in a way that they do not work on ballgroups.
They are designed by ZoS who never stated wanting to nerf ballgroups rather than by ballgroup critics.
Plaguebreak at release only exploded on purge which few players outside organized groups use. Only later they buffed it to also work on death turning it into a group vicious death that only one player has to slot for the whole group.
Dark convergence and especially Rush of Agony were designed for ballgroups because they allow ballgroups to stack and bomb players who were not even standing near each other while ballgroups are already stacked and solo bombers rather fail because damage is too low than because ballgroup /enemys are not stacking.
Only ballgrouplers claim Azureblight was working against soloplayer, smallscaler or spreadout zergs.3 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »I've always defended ball groups, but I'm starting to agree that they are posing a problem for the ongoing health of the game. I'm not one to blame players for responsibility that lies with the developers, such as lag and power creep.
However, the behavior of ball groups has turned more unsportsmanlike. Easily go into a keep, but don't take it. Not because you can't, but because it's more fun to grind the same 7-8 pugs over and over again. When people DO leave (because it is boring), you drop siege to bring us back in. If that doesn't work you take the keep and move on to repeat the cycle again and again. To each their own. However, I find it very disingenuous to defend this behavior at this point when it is pretty clear when this happens your competition gets bored, gives up, gets angry at the game, etc. I get that your ball group of 10 people (or whatever) is having a blast. But you are losing people to play against when you engage in this behavior excessively. Is it your fault the game works this way? No. Do you care to take any responsibility at all in your behavior, though?
I find it's a lot more fun for everyone to not see the same thing over and over again for hours.
Honestly, ball grouping is the counter to massive zerging. If people aren't ballgrouping to some degree, there is no counter to a 50 man zerg other than having your own 50 man zerg - and hope that you are on the defensive rather than the offensive so you have the seige advantage. Otherwise, there is just no answer to overwhelming numbers. I play in a campaign where my chosen alliance routinely goes up against the other alliances with at least a 1 bar advantage, and we would not even have a chance of being competitive without ballgrouping.
Ironically, as a 12 man ball group, we'll wipe 30 man + zergs, and then get accused of zerging. We're not zerging, we're just playing sweaty to give us a chance to win against overwhelming numbers.
SO much this.
There is zero valor in zerging, particularly when it's empty calorie bullying and Xv1'ing against numerically disadvantaged sides. How many times have we seen the "brave" 50-stack rolling the same 8 defenders at every keep until they own their Tri-Keeps and Scrolls? It happens basically every night.
If you're on the sides with the big numbers you might not notice because it never happens to you but if you're on one of those chronically under-populated factions it is your everyday lived reality. In that instance, ballgroups are your last and best hope to avoid being gate-camped and Xv1'd simply trying to recapture a Tri-Keep resource.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »There is zero valor in zerging
The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.
Ballgroups did not prevent DC and AD from gatekeeping EP in PC EU Blackreach almost every night since construction of campaign in u25 but often participated in it.
If you hope a ballgroup will help you avoid getting gatekept they are either absent or helping you get gatekept.
Many zergguilds also use crosshealing and other ballgroup tools.
I doubt you really want to help small-mans and solos because in another discussion you suggest
nerfing selfhealing of these players which would destroy their playstile because solobuilds do not work without good selfhealing.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »de-couple healing and damage so that you actually have to BE a healer in order to heal like a healer
Here is your comment:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8222635#Comment_8222635YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Much better idea is to de-couple healing and damage so that you actually have to BE a healer in order to heal like a healer.
Allowing DDs to stacking healing (including cross-healing) via stacking damage stats is one of the most bizarre design decisions I have ever seen.
Talk about having your cake and eating it, too.0 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »There is zero valor in zerging
The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.
Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.
Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.
So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.
And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....
Soloplayer and Smallscaler who are fighting outnumbered are complaining about ballgroups too, they cant kill the ballgroup outnumbered and they do not want to or not have the numbers to outnumber the ballgroups and still get jumped and killed by ballgroups.
But delusional ballgroups prefer to pretend that everyone fighting them is a zergling and they are the saviours of soloplayers and smallscalers while zerging them down as much as the actual zergs themselve and asking for roles in PvP and other changes making soloplay even harder.
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Rowjoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭very, very, very, very, very, simple solution.
STOP.
FEEDING.
THEM.
If everyone just went to another part of the map en masse every time a ballgroup showed up, then they'd have no fuel and would no longer be thing.
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Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
The issue here is quite simple. If people want small scale fight, they either do BGs or duels. People play in Cyro for big & epic large-scale army vs army fights. And people don't follow ball groups - it is ball groups who follow people. Whenever there is a big fight it takes 5 - 10 minutes for the ball group to show up. Often you don't even see them, but "feel" that they are near cuz everything starts to lag out. And when they show up, it does not matter much what alliance the ball group is. The fight & fun is over & time is ruined for every one else (aside of those 12 players in a ball group that is).very, very, very, very, very, simple solution.
STOP.
FEEDING.
THEM.
If everyone just went to another part of the map en masse every time a ballgroup showed up, then they'd have no fuel and would no longer be thing.
In order to "stop feeding" ball groups it would actually require for every single player to be "united" to the point where whenever ball group shows up, everyone one woud just port back to home base & wait till ball group disbands as there is no "food" (ap) to get... which is kinda impossible.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on November 22, 2024 1:58PM8 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »The solution to these Cyrodiil Ball-Groups is simple, buff the Siege Weapons, make them instant kill regardless of how much health and defense you have, you are not a stone wall, you should not beable to survive getting hit by something designed to destroy them.
No. If seige 1 shots ball groups, its going to one shot everyone, which will create an entirely different problem.
I think sets like Seigemaster are kind of a step in the right direction, but they screwed up with the bonuses the set provides. Instead of giving damage reduction and seeing through walls, it should have granted 33% increased seige damage for non-ram seige. That allows players to trade off individual combat effectiveness for extra effectiveness while using seige.
But beyond that, the best way to beat a good ball group if you DON'T have a ball group yourself is a combined-arms fight, using seige, and foot soldiers alike to your advantage.
And if seige can 1 shot everyone then it is a good thing.
If it came with a tradeoff cost? Yeah, maybe I'd be fine with it in theory. The tradeoff should be that that player's equipment is what causes the seige to be that strong, so when you find this player in the openfield or when you have breached the keep, they're an easy kill because they have no buffs to their combat abilities. In that scenario, then yeah, I think that could be more or less fair because there are some tradeoffs. It'll still end up being problematic though because you'll have 15-20 of these people defending a keep making it impossible to breach a keep under any circumstances - ball group or not, so your really not hitting the target audience there. At which point you would see some tuning down of some siege, which will only hurt those sieging who aren't using seige-buffing sets. So in the long run, I don't think this is really the answer.
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