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Oh, Ballgroups
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Theist_VII✭✭✭✭✭
✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »There is zero valor in zerging
The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.
Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.
Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.
So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.
And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....
You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..
We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.
Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.
Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.
Come to xbox na and youll see all of us hunting each other.
Occasional Xbox NA player here, yes Grayhost at pop-cap will have multiple ball groups actively ignoring each other, I’ve ran with quite a few during AP events, watching the group lead make calls like, “[snip]’s group is over by ABC, let’s head to XYZ” because we could not kill each other and it would turn into a colossal waste of time, and that same issue is found in Imperial City. Funny enough, it’s worse in IC, Tel Var farmers will literally take turns sweeping the districts.
This isn’t 2016 anymore, no sense pretending it is. Quite a few PvE raid leaders have began masquerading as PvPers and are farming players for AP and Tel Var in the easiest way possible because paid carries have dried up and they can’t sell their gold for RMT, like we all know they have been… if they aren’t making any of it.
Ball Groups are a problem on every server.
*Snipped to avoid Name/Shaming.Edited by Theist_VII on November 13, 2024 8:08AM4 -
abkam✭✭✭The day they completely disable PvP in this game will be a great day!
They can't balance PvE sets and classes because of PvP
They can't balance PvP because of PvE sets and classes.
Edited by abkam on November 13, 2024 8:09AMChillin' in Tamriel as a Nature's Guardian!3 -
Theist_VII✭✭✭✭✭
✭The day they completely disable PvP in this game will be a great day!
They can't balance PvE sets and classes because of PvP
They can't balance PvP because of PvE sets and classes.
Actually, if you want a really good example of a game that balances itself separately for PvP and PvE, check out Warhammer 40,000 Space Marines II. Abilities and weapons act differently depending on which mode you’re playing, giving certain weapons more range and functionality, a more advanced melee system with parry rings and executions in PvE, ect… I have never seen such perfection in a duality system as what Saber’s accomplished with that game.
Perhaps ZOS could take a page from SM2’s playbook.Edited by Theist_VII on November 13, 2024 8:17AM3 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Here's another analogy. The ball group is the high school varsity football team. The zerg is a random freshmen 3rd period gym class with 20 kids and half of them haven't reached puberty yet. Who are you putting your money on?BXR_Lonestar wrote: »At this point, I'm at a place where I just laugh and say "cry more please."
I'll counter your analogy with another one:
If ballgrouper's are the varsity and the zerglings the freshmen football players - then shouldn't the freshmen football players see that the varsity players are on the playing field and go elsewhere? It's not like they are being forced to stay there and fight the ballgroup. Cyrodil is a big map after all!
And if your alliance already owns most of the map and there isn't anywhere else to go, that is just the nature of the game. It is going to be incrementally more difficult to take keeps the less keeps the enemy has, because if they have any presence in the server, there are going to be higher concentrations of enemy players in fewer areas.
No.
There is only one field and that is Cyrodiil. If the "freshmen" could go play in another Cyrodiil absent all the organized groups, then would immediately home that campaign and never look back. Expecting everyone else to just leave when critical AvAvA objectives by a group that ZOS's poor combat balance has made too powerful is not a fair solution as it caters to only one type of PvP players (and not even all of them as I dislike playing with non-competitive rules, even when I am the beneficiary).
Eh, you really aren't getting it. Cyrodil is a BIG space. Each objective is a playing field, and a ballgroup can only be at one place at one time. Furthermore, ballgroups are made up of people in many different timezones, so they usually have a narrow band of operating hours before the group has to break up. So You literally can take your ball and go play elsewhere if you so choose, and that group may not even be on after an hour, and you won't have to deal with them after that. But your response shows that you don't think there is any place at all for organized and highly skilled and coordinated groups in Cyrodil.
Careful. Your bias is showing.1 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »The_Meathead wrote: »You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..
How awesome would it be if when an opposing faction Ballgroup was spotted, Zone chat lit up with calls of "BG at BRK!!" or "(Name of Ballgroup) at Glade LM, headed South!" like infantrymen shouting "TAAAAANK!" and their own faction's BGs rushed to get there and attack?
If Ballgroups beelined it for one another like a powerful part of the whole, deadset on destroying their rivals, I doubt they'd be anything but adored. I know I'd openly cheer for them, certainly.
Regretfully, that's not the case at all, and most of them operate in a pretty parasitic manner that detracts from the larger picture entirely. I am truly dubious of the occasional claims that BGs seek battle with one another on any sort of regular basis these days, and I understand why... since fighting them is pretty miserable for all involved.
I don't know what server you play on but my group has had just about nothing BUT group vs. group for the last several weeks, much to my own annoyance (as I much prefer achieving map objectives).
You really underestimate the amount of rivalry and competition between groups, even between groups on the same factions. Like anything else, there is a hierarchy of who is better than whom and that hierarchy is dictated by who wins in those fights. Some groups hate each other and will beeline their rivals on-sight, sweating them down to the last player so that they can't rez. In other words, groups have distinct personalities, largely governed by the behavior of their crown and of the sorts of players that the group attracts. Some are chill. Some are decidedly un-chill. I think that the un-chill groups tend to give everyone else a bad name.
Like, I can only really speak for my own group but we are basically always trying to do something that will help our faction. We don't farm Scrolls, we don't spawn-camp, we don't sweat-down solos or groups smaller than ourselves (unless they attack first...). If there is an enemy group farming PUGs inside of one of our keeps, we will try to kill them (however, we're FAR from the top group so sometimes we simply get clapped in the process), if there is a pivotal keep to try to capture or defend, we will try to be there, helping.
These threads are so often the same, with the "ballgroups this" and "ballgroups that" and I am sitting here like, "Neither my group nor any other groups that I've either played in or been friends with do literally any of those things..." It begins to feel like a giant straw-man argument, blaming the entire community for the actions of a few bad actors and their anecdotal tales.
I can understand if it all looks the same from the outside but every group really is different, just like individual people and players.
So much of this. If we see a rival ballgroup operating, we like to ambush them, hit them hard. Let them know we're in the server too. Then there will be some epic clashes, or we'll end up chasing eachother around trying to get good hits on eachother. It's actually some of the most fun and exciting combat IMO. Especially when you are a smaller group going against a larger group and you are maneuvering to use terrain and cover to your advantage so you can work in a hit on the group's flanks.1 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »There is zero valor in zerging
The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.
Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.
Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.
So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.
And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....
You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..
We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.
Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.
Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.
I've definitely seen ball groups actively avoiding OUR group after we have had good hits on them. But we don't run from fights with other groups. We will pass on getting sandwiched between two groups fighting eachother, but that is more due to the fact that Blues are the #1 target when we are on the field, and Reds and Yellows in my server have a gentleman's agreement to focus Blues first. But that is more about not fighting when you clearly are at a disadvantage. That is something people complaining in this thread could learn about...0 -
Sleepsin✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »There is zero valor in zerging
The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.
Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.
Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.
So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.
And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....
You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..
We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.
Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.
Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.
I've definitely seen ball groups actively avoiding OUR group after we have had good hits on them. But we don't run from fights with other groups. We will pass on getting sandwiched between two groups fighting eachother, but that is more due to the fact that Blues are the #1 target when we are on the field, and Reds and Yellows in my server have a gentleman's agreement to focus Blues first. But that is more about not fighting when you clearly are at a disadvantage. That is something people complaining in this thread could learn about...
I'll say it agian, we can all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other, even when they are at the same keep.8 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »There is zero valor in zerging
The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.
Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.
Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.
So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.
And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....
You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..
We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.
Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.
Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.
I've definitely seen ball groups actively avoiding OUR group after we have had good hits on them. But we don't run from fights with other groups. We will pass on getting sandwiched between two groups fighting eachother, but that is more due to the fact that Blues are the #1 target when we are on the field, and Reds and Yellows in my server have a gentleman's agreement to focus Blues first. But that is more about not fighting when you clearly are at a disadvantage. That is something people complaining in this thread could learn about...
I'll say it agian, we can all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other, even when they are at the same keep.
You see, this is what I call a circular argument, and we're just not going to get anywhere with this conversation. Absolute waste of time. You act as if it is within my power (or anyone's power for that matter) to force ballgroups to fight eachother. There is no such power on this planet that will force two groups who don't want to fight eachother to fight eachother. End of story. The reality is that some groups will and some groups wont. I don't imagine that you've actually stuck around just to watch epic clashes between to ballgroups, but they do, in fact, happen. Quite regularly I will add, because those are the kind of fights that keep me playing the game.
Again, all ballgroups are are highly coordinated and otpimized groups. There is nothing wrong with that. Quite literally ANYONE can form a ballgroup, provided you know what sets and skills to run with each component and you have a willing crown. It's just like playing high-end PVE, but in a PVP atmosphere. Is it going to be easy to fight? No. Just like it wouldn't be easy to match up against higher ranked players in Battlegrounds. But that doesn't mean it is an unwinnable fight - if you know what you are doing. I'm guessing that you don't know how to combat these groups, and so rather than try to figure that out, you seek to have the Devs come down on them instead. Good move. Doesn't sound like you really want to invest and become a better player.
It is not as if Cyrodil has skill-based matchmaking, which I think is something you would be a proponent of to protect you from having to compete against higher-skilled players. That kind of PVP wouldn't work in Cyrodil, which is a large open battlefield with multiple objectives to try to control. Being that Cyrodil is such a large area with multiple objectives, again, it seems the solution would be for you to target a different objective that steers you away from the ballgroup...2 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Here's another analogy. The ball group is the high school varsity football team. The zerg is a random freshmen 3rd period gym class with 20 kids and half of them haven't reached puberty yet. Who are you putting your money on?BXR_Lonestar wrote: »At this point, I'm at a place where I just laugh and say "cry more please."
I'll counter your analogy with another one:
If ballgrouper's are the varsity and the zerglings the freshmen football players - then shouldn't the freshmen football players see that the varsity players are on the playing field and go elsewhere? It's not like they are being forced to stay there and fight the ballgroup. Cyrodil is a big map after all!
And if your alliance already owns most of the map and there isn't anywhere else to go, that is just the nature of the game. It is going to be incrementally more difficult to take keeps the less keeps the enemy has, because if they have any presence in the server, there are going to be higher concentrations of enemy players in fewer areas.
No.
There is only one field and that is Cyrodiil. If the "freshmen" could go play in another Cyrodiil absent all the organized groups, then would immediately home that campaign and never look back. Expecting everyone else to just leave when critical AvAvA objectives by a group that ZOS's poor combat balance has made too powerful is not a fair solution as it caters to only one type of PvP players (and not even all of them as I dislike playing with non-competitive rules, even when I am the beneficiary).
Eh, you really aren't getting it. Cyrodil is a BIG space. Each objective is a playing field, and a ballgroup can only be at one place at one time. Furthermore, ballgroups are made up of people in many different timezones, so they usually have a narrow band of operating hours before the group has to break up. So You literally can take your ball and go play elsewhere if you so choose, and that group may not even be on after an hour, and you won't have to deal with them after that. But your response shows that you don't think there is any place at all for organized and highly skilled and coordinated groups in Cyrodil.
Careful. Your bias is showing.
As long as the only answer to those "highly skilled and coordinated groups" is to go somewhere else, there should not be any place at all for them.
And you are the one who really isnt getting it. You keep trying to make excuses for ballgroups, when basically everyone who isnt playing in a ballgroup is telling you that youre the problem. You make the area that youre in basically unenjoyable for anyone who isnt also playing in a group like yours.
Im not saying that organized groups shouldnt have an advantage, but as soon as one group like that ruins the experience for dozens of other players its very clear that they are a problem.Edited by Jierdanit on November 13, 2024 10:37PMPC/EU, StamSorc Main7 -
Theist_VII✭✭✭✭✭
✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Here's another analogy. The ball group is the high school varsity football team. The zerg is a random freshmen 3rd period gym class with 20 kids and half of them haven't reached puberty yet. Who are you putting your money on?BXR_Lonestar wrote: »At this point, I'm at a place where I just laugh and say "cry more please."
I'll counter your analogy with another one:
If ballgrouper's are the varsity and the zerglings the freshmen football players - then shouldn't the freshmen football players see that the varsity players are on the playing field and go elsewhere? It's not like they are being forced to stay there and fight the ballgroup. Cyrodil is a big map after all!
And if your alliance already owns most of the map and there isn't anywhere else to go, that is just the nature of the game. It is going to be incrementally more difficult to take keeps the less keeps the enemy has, because if they have any presence in the server, there are going to be higher concentrations of enemy players in fewer areas.
No.
There is only one field and that is Cyrodiil. If the "freshmen" could go play in another Cyrodiil absent all the organized groups, then would immediately home that campaign and never look back. Expecting everyone else to just leave when critical AvAvA objectives by a group that ZOS's poor combat balance has made too powerful is not a fair solution as it caters to only one type of PvP players (and not even all of them as I dislike playing with non-competitive rules, even when I am the beneficiary).
Eh, you really aren't getting it. Cyrodil is a BIG space. Each objective is a playing field, and a ballgroup can only be at one place at one time. Furthermore, ballgroups are made up of people in many different timezones, so they usually have a narrow band of operating hours before the group has to break up. So You literally can take your ball and go play elsewhere if you so choose, and that group may not even be on after an hour, and you won't have to deal with them after that. But your response shows that you don't think there is any place at all for organized and highly skilled and coordinated groups in Cyrodil.
Careful. Your bias is showing.
You make the area that youre in basically unenjoyable for anyone who isnt also playing in a group like yours.
It’s unenjoyable for other ball groups to run into each other too.
They all stalemate, as you don’t have anyone in group under 35k health, bombs are generally pretty weak compared to glass cannons, which are also failing to kill warded groups.
Playing in a ball group is pretty dull, as it feels like just another generic farming session, with reactive gameplay thrown out the window due to build cohesion, there’s zero risk that needs an immediate reaction when you have every buff, and twelve Echoing Vigor and Radiating Regenerations all ticking simultaneously, and your healers providing wards now.Edited by Theist_VII on November 13, 2024 10:47PM8 -
Sleepsin✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »There is zero valor in zerging
The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.
Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.
Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.
So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.
And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....
You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..
We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.
Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.
Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.
I've definitely seen ball groups actively avoiding OUR group after we have had good hits on them. But we don't run from fights with other groups. We will pass on getting sandwiched between two groups fighting eachother, but that is more due to the fact that Blues are the #1 target when we are on the field, and Reds and Yellows in my server have a gentleman's agreement to focus Blues first. But that is more about not fighting when you clearly are at a disadvantage. That is something people complaining in this thread could learn about...
I'll say it agian, we can all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other, even when they are at the same keep.
You see, this is what I call a circular argument, and we're just not going to get anywhere with this conversation. Absolute waste of time. You act as if it is within my power (or anyone's power for that matter) to force ballgroups to fight eachother. There is no such power on this planet that will force two groups who don't want to fight eachother to fight eachother. End of story. The reality is that some groups will and some groups wont. I don't imagine that you've actually stuck around just to watch epic clashes between to ballgroups, but they do, in fact, happen. Quite regularly I will add, because those are the kind of fights that keep me playing the game.
Again, all ballgroups are are highly coordinated and otpimized groups. There is nothing wrong with that. Quite literally ANYONE can form a ballgroup, provided you know what sets and skills to run with each component and you have a willing crown. It's just like playing high-end PVE, but in a PVP atmosphere. Is it going to be easy to fight? No. Just like it wouldn't be easy to match up against higher ranked players in Battlegrounds. But that doesn't mean it is an unwinnable fight - if you know what you are doing. I'm guessing that you don't know how to combat these groups, and so rather than try to figure that out, you seek to have the Devs come down on them instead. Good move. Doesn't sound like you really want to invest and become a better player.
It is not as if Cyrodil has skill-based matchmaking, which I think is something you would be a proponent of to protect you from having to compete against higher-skilled players. That kind of PVP wouldn't work in Cyrodil, which is a large open battlefield with multiple objectives to try to control. Being that Cyrodil is such a large area with multiple objectives, again, it seems the solution would be for you to target a different objective that steers you away from the ballgroup...
It's a circle argument because you are trying to justify a poor play style. Most people don't have a problem with skilled groups. It is when ball groups just run the wall or spawn camp. Ball groups are NOT highly skilled, they exploit heal/shield stacking. If ESO had a PvP dev that behavior would have been fixed, if a trial could be exploited in such a manner, people would be banned. You don't have the "power" to control other groups, but you do have control over your own game play and what you defend on the forums.9 -
gronoxvx✭✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »There is zero valor in zerging
The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.
Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.
Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.
So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.
And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....
You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..
We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.
Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.
Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.
I've definitely seen ball groups actively avoiding OUR group after we have had good hits on them. But we don't run from fights with other groups. We will pass on getting sandwiched between two groups fighting eachother, but that is more due to the fact that Blues are the #1 target when we are on the field, and Reds and Yellows in my server have a gentleman's agreement to focus Blues first. But that is more about not fighting when you clearly are at a disadvantage. That is something people complaining in this thread could learn about...
I'll say it agian, we can all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other, even when they are at the same keep.
You see, this is what I call a circular argument, and we're just not going to get anywhere with this conversation. Absolute waste of time. You act as if it is within my power (or anyone's power for that matter) to force ballgroups to fight eachother. There is no such power on this planet that will force two groups who don't want to fight eachother to fight eachother. End of story. The reality is that some groups will and some groups wont. I don't imagine that you've actually stuck around just to watch epic clashes between to ballgroups, but they do, in fact, happen. Quite regularly I will add, because those are the kind of fights that keep me playing the game.
Again, all ballgroups are are highly coordinated and otpimized groups. There is nothing wrong with that. Quite literally ANYONE can form a ballgroup, provided you know what sets and skills to run with each component and you have a willing crown. It's just like playing high-end PVE, but in a PVP atmosphere. Is it going to be easy to fight? No. Just like it wouldn't be easy to match up against higher ranked players in Battlegrounds. But that doesn't mean it is an unwinnable fight - if you know what you are doing. I'm guessing that you don't know how to combat these groups, and so rather than try to figure that out, you seek to have the Devs come down on them instead. Good move. Doesn't sound like you really want to invest and become a better player.
It is not as if Cyrodil has skill-based matchmaking, which I think is something you would be a proponent of to protect you from having to compete against higher-skilled players. That kind of PVP wouldn't work in Cyrodil, which is a large open battlefield with multiple objectives to try to control. Being that Cyrodil is such a large area with multiple objectives, again, it seems the solution would be for you to target a different objective that steers you away from the ballgroup...
It's a circle argument because you are trying to justify a poor play style. Most people don't have a problem with skilled groups. It is when ball groups just run the wall or spawn camp. Ball groups are NOT highly skilled, they exploit heal/shield stacking. If ESO had a PvP dev that behavior would have been fixed, if a trial could be exploited in such a manner, people would be banned. You don't have the "power" to control other groups, but you do have control over your own game play and what you defend on the forums.
Ball groups are actually highly skilled. Trying to make that argument shows you have no clue how a ball group operates and what actually goes into running and being part of a ball group. The amount of co-ordination is crazy. but of course please stick to the same old belief that all we do is rely on heals/shields and "exploits" compared to running as a cohesive unit like any kind of core group progressing hard pve content.
Join a ball group and see for yourself. You may even enjoy it.1 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yeah, Ballgroups don't "fight" other Ballgroups. The moment one is engaged by another of somewhat equal footing, they start playing Cat and Mouse. Run run run run turn and Ult dump, run run run run turn and Ult dump, repeat. There's no proper melee between them. They only stand/advance and fight when their targets are outnumbered/disorganized Randoms. And those Randoms are the newer players that are more likely to take these encounters negatively and stop coming back to Cyro. Only us veterans put up with the bull.
Even then it's tiring.
CP2,000 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!9 -
Sleepsin✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »There is zero valor in zerging
The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.
Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.
Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.
So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.
And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....
You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..
We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.
Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.
Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.
I've definitely seen ball groups actively avoiding OUR group after we have had good hits on them. But we don't run from fights with other groups. We will pass on getting sandwiched between two groups fighting eachother, but that is more due to the fact that Blues are the #1 target when we are on the field, and Reds and Yellows in my server have a gentleman's agreement to focus Blues first. But that is more about not fighting when you clearly are at a disadvantage. That is something people complaining in this thread could learn about...
I'll say it agian, we can all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other, even when they are at the same keep.
You see, this is what I call a circular argument, and we're just not going to get anywhere with this conversation. Absolute waste of time. You act as if it is within my power (or anyone's power for that matter) to force ballgroups to fight eachother. There is no such power on this planet that will force two groups who don't want to fight eachother to fight eachother. End of story. The reality is that some groups will and some groups wont. I don't imagine that you've actually stuck around just to watch epic clashes between to ballgroups, but they do, in fact, happen. Quite regularly I will add, because those are the kind of fights that keep me playing the game.
Again, all ballgroups are are highly coordinated and otpimized groups. There is nothing wrong with that. Quite literally ANYONE can form a ballgroup, provided you know what sets and skills to run with each component and you have a willing crown. It's just like playing high-end PVE, but in a PVP atmosphere. Is it going to be easy to fight? No. Just like it wouldn't be easy to match up against higher ranked players in Battlegrounds. But that doesn't mean it is an unwinnable fight - if you know what you are doing. I'm guessing that you don't know how to combat these groups, and so rather than try to figure that out, you seek to have the Devs come down on them instead. Good move. Doesn't sound like you really want to invest and become a better player.
It is not as if Cyrodil has skill-based matchmaking, which I think is something you would be a proponent of to protect you from having to compete against higher-skilled players. That kind of PVP wouldn't work in Cyrodil, which is a large open battlefield with multiple objectives to try to control. Being that Cyrodil is such a large area with multiple objectives, again, it seems the solution would be for you to target a different objective that steers you away from the ballgroup...
It's a circle argument because you are trying to justify a poor play style. Most people don't have a problem with skilled groups. It is when ball groups just run the wall or spawn camp. Ball groups are NOT highly skilled, they exploit heal/shield stacking. If ESO had a PvP dev that behavior would have been fixed, if a trial could be exploited in such a manner, people would be banned. You don't have the "power" to control other groups, but you do have control over your own game play and what you defend on the forums.
Ball groups are actually highly skilled. Trying to make that argument shows you have no clue how a ball group operates and what actually goes into running and being part of a ball group. The amount of co-ordination is crazy. but of course please stick to the same old belief that all we do is rely on heals/shields and "exploits" compared to running as a cohesive unit like any kind of core group progressing hard pve content.
Join a ball group and see for yourself. You may even enjoy it.
There are 3 or 4 highly skilled players in a ball group. The rest are just followers spamming their assigned buffs and hitting their ult when told.7 -
gronoxvx✭✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »There is zero valor in zerging
The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.
Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.
Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.
So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.
And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....
You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..
We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.
Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.
Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.
I've definitely seen ball groups actively avoiding OUR group after we have had good hits on them. But we don't run from fights with other groups. We will pass on getting sandwiched between two groups fighting eachother, but that is more due to the fact that Blues are the #1 target when we are on the field, and Reds and Yellows in my server have a gentleman's agreement to focus Blues first. But that is more about not fighting when you clearly are at a disadvantage. That is something people complaining in this thread could learn about...
I'll say it agian, we can all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other, even when they are at the same keep.
You see, this is what I call a circular argument, and we're just not going to get anywhere with this conversation. Absolute waste of time. You act as if it is within my power (or anyone's power for that matter) to force ballgroups to fight eachother. There is no such power on this planet that will force two groups who don't want to fight eachother to fight eachother. End of story. The reality is that some groups will and some groups wont. I don't imagine that you've actually stuck around just to watch epic clashes between to ballgroups, but they do, in fact, happen. Quite regularly I will add, because those are the kind of fights that keep me playing the game.
Again, all ballgroups are are highly coordinated and otpimized groups. There is nothing wrong with that. Quite literally ANYONE can form a ballgroup, provided you know what sets and skills to run with each component and you have a willing crown. It's just like playing high-end PVE, but in a PVP atmosphere. Is it going to be easy to fight? No. Just like it wouldn't be easy to match up against higher ranked players in Battlegrounds. But that doesn't mean it is an unwinnable fight - if you know what you are doing. I'm guessing that you don't know how to combat these groups, and so rather than try to figure that out, you seek to have the Devs come down on them instead. Good move. Doesn't sound like you really want to invest and become a better player.
It is not as if Cyrodil has skill-based matchmaking, which I think is something you would be a proponent of to protect you from having to compete against higher-skilled players. That kind of PVP wouldn't work in Cyrodil, which is a large open battlefield with multiple objectives to try to control. Being that Cyrodil is such a large area with multiple objectives, again, it seems the solution would be for you to target a different objective that steers you away from the ballgroup...
It's a circle argument because you are trying to justify a poor play style. Most people don't have a problem with skilled groups. It is when ball groups just run the wall or spawn camp. Ball groups are NOT highly skilled, they exploit heal/shield stacking. If ESO had a PvP dev that behavior would have been fixed, if a trial could be exploited in such a manner, people would be banned. You don't have the "power" to control other groups, but you do have control over your own game play and what you defend on the forums.
Ball groups are actually highly skilled. Trying to make that argument shows you have no clue how a ball group operates and what actually goes into running and being part of a ball group. The amount of co-ordination is crazy. but of course please stick to the same old belief that all we do is rely on heals/shields and "exploits" compared to running as a cohesive unit like any kind of core group progressing hard pve content.
Join a ball group and see for yourself. You may even enjoy it.
There are 3 or 4 highly skilled players in a ball group. The rest are just followers spamming their assigned buffs and hitting their ult when told.
Disagree. Most of my group holds their own solo or in a group including being able to effectively x on their own. Also know quite a lot of players in other groups who are the same.
This also goes for those who may only play a healer or support role in general. Or are we now dismissing support roles in ESO as nothing more than people who buff? Im sure all the tanks and healer mains will have a lot to say about that 😂Edited by gronoxvx on November 14, 2024 12:22AM1 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ballgroups appeal to bullies, and threads like this are red meat to bullies. The kind of person who would even consider showing up to a touch football game in a Sherman tank is only going to laugh when you point out that's wrong."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle7 -
gronoxvx✭✭✭✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »Ballgroups appeal to bullies, and threads like this are red meat to bullies. The kind of person who would even consider showing up to a touch football game in a Sherman tank is only going to laugh when you point out that's wrong.
Or.... I dunno. We like playing in a group with friends? Or do we all need to be solo?
Ngl weve all be asking for this mode for a while. Cyro would be fun if there was no alliances or teams.0 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »Ballgroups appeal to bullies, and threads like this are red meat to bullies. The kind of person who would even consider showing up to a touch football game in a Sherman tank is only going to laugh when you point out that's wrong.
Or.... I dunno. We like playing in a group with friends? Or do we all need to be solo?
Ngl weve all be asking for this mode for a while. Cyro would be fun if there was no alliances or teams.
Some players like to play solo, smallscale or PuG or can’t find a group
Or do we all have to play in (ball)group?
If you like playing with your friend you can also do so without cross-buff(set)s, -healing and -shielding in a smallscale/largescale like most groups of friends and not have to play in a ballgroup.
Actually most ballgroups are not groups of friends but more like work relationships on assembly lines. You join them to play in a ballgroup usually without knowing most people and after a few month still barely know most of them.
Removing alliances from Cyrodiil would mean that ungrouped players do not only have no group mates but no allies at all and cant even zergsurf.
But „group with friends“ want to exclude random allies from playing with them and rather zerg them.
5 -
The_Meathead✭✭✭✭I feel like there's a fair bit of "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!" when it comes to how Ball Group players discount changes that could be made to stacked HoTs, Shields, etc.
It's out of hand atm, and if players were limited to one of each on them at any given moment, there's no way that wouldn't have an impact.
There have been BG players in this thread and others insisting that BGs would simply evolve, and I think that's absolutely true to a point - but you can't tell me being forced to build based on self-Wards and defense and whatever else would make up for having a dozen of them on you at once. If it was better, they'd be doing it already.
I certainly don't say BGs wouldn't find another avenue to strengthen themselves and kudos for doing so, but I have a hard time believing it could be THIS strong without the stacked healing, shielding, etc, that they manage with current system. That sort of response feels disingenuous.
EDIT: Nor do I believe that Zergs or non-Ball Groups would suffer more from the removal of spell stacking, as some BG players have argued. If Ball Groups go from having 10+ HoTs of one type (ie vigor) on them to 1, and the Zerg players fighting them go from having 1 or 2 of one type to 1... the relative loss in strength would be far more on the Ball Group.Edited by The_Meathead on November 14, 2024 8:23PM6 -
Maybe another option for a fix would be to charge group ball members for the extra strain they put on the server. Say $45 subscription fee? Might be a win win for everyone.3
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The_Meathead✭✭✭✭baguette_poolish wrote: »Maybe another option for a fix would be to charge group ball members for the extra strain they put on the server. Say $45 subscription fee? Might be a win win for everyone.
Ok, I admit I laughed.
I don't really get much lag at all in Cyrodiil, but the rare times I do, there's a Ball Group present. It doesn't happen with massive Zerg fights, so there's probably something there with the stacking mechanics and amount of calculation, but I'm definitely not an expert.
I do wonder if cutting down on how many Heals, Shields, and whatever else stack would diminish that too. All the more reason to do it, if so!3 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Here's another analogy. The ball group is the high school varsity football team. The zerg is a random freshmen 3rd period gym class with 20 kids and half of them haven't reached puberty yet. Who are you putting your money on?BXR_Lonestar wrote: »At this point, I'm at a place where I just laugh and say "cry more please."
I'll counter your analogy with another one:
If ballgrouper's are the varsity and the zerglings the freshmen football players - then shouldn't the freshmen football players see that the varsity players are on the playing field and go elsewhere? It's not like they are being forced to stay there and fight the ballgroup. Cyrodil is a big map after all!
And if your alliance already owns most of the map and there isn't anywhere else to go, that is just the nature of the game. It is going to be incrementally more difficult to take keeps the less keeps the enemy has, because if they have any presence in the server, there are going to be higher concentrations of enemy players in fewer areas.
No.
There is only one field and that is Cyrodiil. If the "freshmen" could go play in another Cyrodiil absent all the organized groups, then would immediately home that campaign and never look back. Expecting everyone else to just leave when critical AvAvA objectives by a group that ZOS's poor combat balance has made too powerful is not a fair solution as it caters to only one type of PvP players (and not even all of them as I dislike playing with non-competitive rules, even when I am the beneficiary).
But your response shows that you don't think there is any place at all for organized and highly skilled and coordinated groups in Cyrodil.
Careful. Your bias is showing.
LOL. I have run in organized groups since 2014.
Yes, my "bias" shows. I am biased aginst bad balance.
If the answer to dealing with oppressively strong enemies fueled by highly dubious mechanics is too bad, leave, wait until we log off, that's all that needs to be said about how bad the balance is.11 -
Valentyne✭✭The_Meathead wrote: »You know what you're doing.
You're sucking the joy out of the game for anyone and everyone that isn't you.
Zerg on Zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO, certainly in ESO PvP, and you don't care. To heck with that! It's all about you.
You're gonna manipulate the shield-stacking heal-stacking snowtreaders-wearing heck out of things to the very utmost, to run down those 3 stragglers trying to fight you at the ol' Lumber Mill, because dang it - that's how you win. Please don't try to say you exist to fight other Ballgroups, because if that time ever existed it's long past.
I mean, I get it. Winning feels good, right? But at SOME point, winning has a lot less to do with you and a lot more to do with advantages that should have been snipped by our Devs. For whatever reason, they're not gonna do it, so you're gonna take advantage. Don't get me wrong now, I love theory-crafting and working as a team, and I see that facet. But... c'mon, now. You know. You know it's too much, I've even seen a lot of you say it.
There's a difference between "legal" and "right," and ... well, you guys erred on the side of "it's allowed, so we'll do it."
Fair enough, but deep down inside you know you're killing the thing you love (or "like," whatever, I won't commit you to anything too grandiose.)
Cyrodiil is the best part of ESO, but you're willing to smother it. I just hope you admit to yourself that the diminishing participation, the lag, the unnecessary withering of something pretty awesome is at least in a big part on you.
"Zerg on zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO"
You and other players like you are the reason Cyrodil is the way it currently is. Mindless cookie cutter builds spamming skills with no idea how to actually play the game. Keep fights are practically non-existent now because of the zerg mentality. Nobody will go anywhere without 20 people or even leave a keep to fight unless they have numbers just to fight a single person.
Ballgroups are the only thing keeping the map active because if anyone shows up at a keep beside a 12 man with comped gear they are immiediately zerged down by 20 lancers and abunch of block tanks. If it was just zerg vs zerg no alliance would ever make it past an outpost because all they do is die, respawn and run back every 30 seconds.
Zerg fights are probably the dumbest thing that has ever happened in Cyrodil, they are not real fights. 10 nightblades with tarnished hiding behind tanks or the generic warden using guard on a dark convergence necro that will ult drop 20 people and run away.SIR BUNS OF THE EP FIREFIGHTERS
PS5 - NA SERVER - GREYHOST
WEE WOO2 -
gronoxvx✭✭✭✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »Ballgroups appeal to bullies, and threads like this are red meat to bullies. The kind of person who would even consider showing up to a touch football game in a Sherman tank is only going to laugh when you point out that's wrong.
Or.... I dunno. We like playing in a group with friends? Or do we all need to be solo?
Ngl weve all be asking for this mode for a while. Cyro would be fun if there was no alliances or teams.
Some players like to play solo, smallscale or PuG or can’t find a group
Or do we all have to play in (ball)group?
If you like playing with your friend you can also do so without cross-buff(set)s, -healing and -shielding in a smallscale/largescale like most groups of friends and not have to play in a ballgroup.
Actually most ballgroups are not groups of friends but more like work relationships on assembly lines. You join them to play in a ballgroup usually without knowing most people and after a few month still barely know most of them.
Removing alliances from Cyrodiil would mean that ungrouped players do not only have no group mates but no allies at all and cant even zergsurf.
But „group with friends“ want to exclude random allies from playing with them and rather zerg them.
Well, no. You dont have to play in a ball group. Thats the great thing about this game with the eso mantra of "play how you want". However, most people complaining in these threads want to be rambo and try to solo a bunch of people and get pissy when they cant.
In regards to not being able to find a group, sounds like an individual problem. Theres always people picking up pugs in zc. Networking is a powerful thing in any MMO and life in general. But alas people want everything given to them. The only thing stopping a person from doing these things is themselves. How i got into my first group was engaging with people.
Small scalling is just as optimised than a ball group since they really need to prioritize buffs, skills and sets to benefit their group since they are smaller than a ball group.
Friends? Actually, every group ive been in (5 now over my years) have all been a close knit crew who get to know each other quite well on the game. Most of us may choose not to exchange real names or personal info to each other, but theyre still considered friends imo. You say colleagues, i say friends.
4 -
Elendir2am✭✭✭✭Azure blight was good way to distinguish good ball groups from bad. Good ball groups adapted and was perma moving so all my ground DoTs were useless. Copy+past BG were moving slowly and had some "pit stops" form me feed them with azure blight. And worst BG were standing on ram when I was vomiting all my DoTs on them.
ZOS are making all of them equal by nerfing all counter play again ball groups.
To argue that coordinated groups should be stronger than zerg? Sitting at discord together give you such advantage that it should be enough. There is no reason for ZOS to buff coordinated groups more. Yet they are doing it.Edited by Elendir2am on November 14, 2024 9:49PMPvP - Recruit.
PvE - Dragon food
RPG - A guy who thought, that he can defeat daedric prince, yet guards still chase him off when he accidentally touches some object during daily writs.8 -
The_Meathead✭✭✭✭"Zerg on zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO"
You and other players like you are the reason Cyrodil is the way it currently is. Mindless cookie cutter builds spamming skills with no idea how to actually play the game. Keep fights are practically non-existent now because of the zerg mentality. Nobody will go anywhere without 20 people or even leave a keep to fight unless they have numbers just to fight a single person.
Ballgroups are the only thing keeping the map active because if anyone shows up at a keep beside a 12 man with comped gear they are immiediately zerged down by 20 lancers and abunch of block tanks. If it was just zerg vs zerg no alliance would ever make it past an outpost because all they do is die, respawn and run back every 30 seconds.
Zerg fights are probably the dumbest thing that has ever happened in Cyrodil, they are not real fights. 10 nightblades with tarnished hiding behind tanks or the generic warden using guard on a dark convergence necro that will ult drop 20 people and run away.
This one's kinda funny, because you addressed me and I'm literally none of the stuff you named in the thread.
Of the six builds I play on my Templar, only one could be considered Cookie Cutter (my own Rangeplar set up) and it's the one I play the absolute least, because I don't enjoy it as much. I engage in any size fight I find at any time, LOVE Keep fights, and enjoy the heck out of small group conflicts. Heck, I even send praise messages to people on other Factions if they impress me, win or lose, but most of all I'm constantly doing objectives with my Faction in any way possible.
That said, yes, I do think Zerg on Zerg is the most fun part of Cyrodiil and by extension ESO PvP. When a large number of players are attacking a Keep while another large group tries to defend, I love it. Milegate fights even more, and probably my very favorite is when the Gates get opened and we're defending a Scroll at its Temple with 20 or so people. For whatever reason, that last one's always the most fun to me.
Maybe you don't define that stuff as Zerg on Zerg?
As to your specifics, I agree Tarnished from Magblades at Ranged was no fun and thankfully got nerfed. Tanks are irritating, but I feel they have a place even if I too grumble while fighting them. Dark Convergence, Wardens running in circles around a pebble, etc, yeah, it can all be frustrating. Bombers, Gankers, too, but that's all part of the game.
So, it's funny to hear you say those things about parts of PvP that felt imbalanced or non-fun to you, and then defend Ball Groups of all things, because they're the big brother to all of that. They're the ultimate manipulation possible on the biggest scale grouping allows (minus the AD triple Ball Group night cappers, lately) of overpowered current mechanics.
Grouping, communication, and teamwork should always and will always have -enormous- inherent advantages, but the mechanics for stacking are simply too great right now - particularly when things that have managed to provide a threat to Ball Groups have repeatedly been nerfed. It's just out of hand.
You said, "Ballgroups are the only thing keeping the map active" and I think most would disagree strongly with that.
If anything, Ballgroups are probably one of the biggest drains on the population and activity in Cyrodiil, as players get tired of them and simply quit coming.
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shadyjane62✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I used to love PvP before ball groups. Now I only go into the small towns for dailies.Edited by shadyjane62 on November 15, 2024 6:24AM5 -
shadyjane62✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The_Meathead wrote: »You know what you're doing.
You're sucking the joy out of the game for anyone and everyone that isn't you.
Zerg on Zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO, certainly in ESO PvP, and you don't care. To heck with that! It's all about you.
You're gonna manipulate the shield-stacking heal-stacking snowtreaders-wearing heck out of things to the very utmost, to run down those 3 stragglers trying to fight you at the ol' Lumber Mill, because dang it - that's how you win. Please don't try to say you exist to fight other Ballgroups, because if that time ever existed it's long past.
I mean, I get it. Winning feels good, right? But at SOME point, winning has a lot less to do with you and a lot more to do with advantages that should have been snipped by our Devs. For whatever reason, they're not gonna do it, so you're gonna take advantage. Don't get me wrong now, I love theory-crafting and working as a team, and I see that facet. But... c'mon, now. You know. You know it's too much, I've even seen a lot of you say it.
There's a difference between "legal" and "right," and ... well, you guys erred on the side of "it's allowed, so we'll do it."
Fair enough, but deep down inside you know you're killing the thing you love (or "like," whatever, I won't commit you to anything too grandiose.)
Cyrodiil is the best part of ESO, but you're willing to smother it. I just hope you admit to yourself that the diminishing participation, the lag, the unnecessary withering of something pretty awesome is at least in a big part on you.
"Zerg on zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO"
You and other players like you are the reason Cyrodil is the way it currently is. Mindless cookie cutter builds spamming skills with no idea how to actually play the game. Keep fights are practically non-existent now because of the zerg mentality. Nobody will go anywhere without 20 people or even leave a keep to fight unless they have numbers just to fight a single person.
Ballgroups are the only thing keeping the map active because if anyone shows up at a keep beside a 12 man with comped gear they are immiediately zerged down by 20 lancers and abunch of block tanks. If it was just zerg vs zerg no alliance would ever make it past an outpost because all they do is die, respawn and run back every 30 seconds.
Zerg fights are probably the dumbest thing that has ever happened in Cyrodil, they are not real fights. 10 nightblades with tarnished hiding behind tanks or the generic warden using guard on a dark convergence necro that will ult drop 20 people and run away.
This post makes me wish there was a "I disagree vehemently" button.5 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »There is zero valor in zerging
The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.
Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.
Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.
So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.
And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....
You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..
We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.
Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.
Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.
I've definitely seen ball groups actively avoiding OUR group after we have had good hits on them. But we don't run from fights with other groups. We will pass on getting sandwiched between two groups fighting eachother, but that is more due to the fact that Blues are the #1 target when we are on the field, and Reds and Yellows in my server have a gentleman's agreement to focus Blues first. But that is more about not fighting when you clearly are at a disadvantage. That is something people complaining in this thread could learn about...
I'll say it agian, we can all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other, even when they are at the same keep.
You see, this is what I call a circular argument, and we're just not going to get anywhere with this conversation. Absolute waste of time. You act as if it is within my power (or anyone's power for that matter) to force ballgroups to fight eachother. There is no such power on this planet that will force two groups who don't want to fight eachother to fight eachother. End of story. The reality is that some groups will and some groups wont. I don't imagine that you've actually stuck around just to watch epic clashes between to ballgroups, but they do, in fact, happen. Quite regularly I will add, because those are the kind of fights that keep me playing the game.
Again, all ballgroups are are highly coordinated and otpimized groups. There is nothing wrong with that. Quite literally ANYONE can form a ballgroup, provided you know what sets and skills to run with each component and you have a willing crown. It's just like playing high-end PVE, but in a PVP atmosphere. Is it going to be easy to fight? No. Just like it wouldn't be easy to match up against higher ranked players in Battlegrounds. But that doesn't mean it is an unwinnable fight - if you know what you are doing. I'm guessing that you don't know how to combat these groups, and so rather than try to figure that out, you seek to have the Devs come down on them instead. Good move. Doesn't sound like you really want to invest and become a better player.
It is not as if Cyrodil has skill-based matchmaking, which I think is something you would be a proponent of to protect you from having to compete against higher-skilled players. That kind of PVP wouldn't work in Cyrodil, which is a large open battlefield with multiple objectives to try to control. Being that Cyrodil is such a large area with multiple objectives, again, it seems the solution would be for you to target a different objective that steers you away from the ballgroup...
It's a circle argument because you are trying to justify a poor play style. Most people don't have a problem with skilled groups. It is when ball groups just run the wall or spawn camp. Ball groups are NOT highly skilled, they exploit heal/shield stacking. If ESO had a PvP dev that behavior would have been fixed, if a trial could be exploited in such a manner, people would be banned. You don't have the "power" to control other groups, but you do have control over your own game play and what you defend on the forums.
Have you ever played in a ball group? It is far more than heal/shield stacking. Some groups do a great job of shield stacking, but my group does not stack shields. If you encounter these groups, there is actually a counter for that via scribing. Heal stacking helps, but it is NOT the heal stacking that is your biggest issue because enough burst dps will overwhelm the heal stacking. It is well timed heals from the supporting healers, smart use of healing ults, and great healer play that is making these groups hard to kill. Kill the healers and the dominoes start to fall. I know this for a fact because I have seen how the group does both WITH and WITHOUT a healer. If heal stacking is what made them strong, you would see groups dropping the healers in favor of more DPS or support/pulls.
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BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Here's another analogy. The ball group is the high school varsity football team. The zerg is a random freshmen 3rd period gym class with 20 kids and half of them haven't reached puberty yet. Who are you putting your money on?BXR_Lonestar wrote: »At this point, I'm at a place where I just laugh and say "cry more please."
I'll counter your analogy with another one:
If ballgrouper's are the varsity and the zerglings the freshmen football players - then shouldn't the freshmen football players see that the varsity players are on the playing field and go elsewhere? It's not like they are being forced to stay there and fight the ballgroup. Cyrodil is a big map after all!
And if your alliance already owns most of the map and there isn't anywhere else to go, that is just the nature of the game. It is going to be incrementally more difficult to take keeps the less keeps the enemy has, because if they have any presence in the server, there are going to be higher concentrations of enemy players in fewer areas.
No.
There is only one field and that is Cyrodiil. If the "freshmen" could go play in another Cyrodiil absent all the organized groups, then would immediately home that campaign and never look back. Expecting everyone else to just leave when critical AvAvA objectives by a group that ZOS's poor combat balance has made too powerful is not a fair solution as it caters to only one type of PvP players (and not even all of them as I dislike playing with non-competitive rules, even when I am the beneficiary).
But your response shows that you don't think there is any place at all for organized and highly skilled and coordinated groups in Cyrodil.
Careful. Your bias is showing.
LOL. I have run in organized groups since 2014.
Yes, my "bias" shows. I am biased aginst bad balance.
If the answer to dealing with oppressively strong enemies fueled by highly dubious mechanics is too bad, leave, wait until we log off, that's all that needs to be said about how bad the balance is.
Tell you what. We'll stop ball grouping when people stop running 50 man zergs. It just isn't going to happen. Ball groups ARE the counter to big zergs and being outnumbered. If you don't have overwhelming numbers, then yes, your best answer is concede the objective and go elsewhere. Unless you want to spend your time in PVP allowing yourself to get frustrated.1
