Oh, Ballgroups

The_Meathead · November 3

You know what you're doing.

You're sucking the joy out of the game for anyone and everyone that isn't you.

Zerg on Zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO, certainly in ESO PvP, and you don't care. To heck with that! It's all about you.

You're gonna manipulate the shield-stacking heal-stacking snowtreaders-wearing heck out of things to the very utmost, to run down those 3 stragglers trying to fight you at the ol' Lumber Mill, because dang it - that's how you win. Please don't try to say you exist to fight other Ballgroups, because if that time ever existed it's long past.

I mean, I get it. Winning feels good, right? But at SOME point, winning has a lot less to do with you and a lot more to do with advantages that should have been snipped by our Devs. For whatever reason, they're not gonna do it, so you're gonna take advantage. Don't get me wrong now, I love theory-crafting and working as a team, and I see that facet. But... c'mon, now. You know. You know it's too much, I've even seen a lot of you say it.

There's a difference between "legal" and "right," and ... well, you guys erred on the side of "it's allowed, so we'll do it."

Fair enough, but deep down inside you know you're killing the thing you love (or "like," whatever, I won't commit you to anything too grandiose.)

Cyrodiil is the best part of ESO, but you're willing to smother it. I just hope you admit to yourself that the diminishing participation, the lag, the unnecessary withering of something pretty awesome is at least in a big part on you.

Rohamad_Ali · November 3

Appealing to the conscious of a ball group.

The_Meathead · November 3

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Appealing to the conscious of a ball group.

Ya know... I'm not even mad.

I just got to that point this evening where I was having a great time until the 4th or 5th Ballgroup interaction and thought to myself, "Surely they know what they are, right? They know they're pooping where they eat?"

Admittedly, I'm on drink number three which is the perfect combo of "can still spell words" and "has no filter," but I guess I just wanted to voice this bit. For people who spend THAT much time in Cyrodiil, they surely know they're choking the life out of what they enjoy, right? Most of them probably hated Ballgroups till they joined one, and probably still feel the "gross" of it.

evLRise · November 3

The_Meathead wrote: »

Zerg on Zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO, certainly in ESO PvP, and you don't care. To heck with that! It's all about you.

Ah yes. The "I play the game the right way and you shouldn't be allowed to play any other way" argument.

Fun fact - the 3 stragglers trying to fight you at the ol' Lumber Mill would have most probably died to a full group anyway, regardless of being coordinated or not.
Fun fact #2 - you're more likely to be zerged by random zerg groups than ballgroups.
Fun fact #3 - for whatever reason, one that most people really fail to grasp: Coordinated wins vs uncoordinated. Imagine if you would consistenly be able to beat a 12-man organized group with a 12-man unorganized. Something would be fundamentally wrong with the game.

Im surprised people don't cry about X'ers as well, since it's basically the same thing, just at a reduced scale. Probably because you can zerg down solo players, but vs coordinated groups it's not that easy.

The_Meathead · November 3

Yeaaah.. that's really not it.

I respect the hell out of X'ers who can pull off a 1v(several) win with a great build, some serious twitch, and running around a discarded red solo cup in the yard for 10 minutes to manage a win against bigger odds. That's not how I play, but I can see the serious talent, effort, and -this is the most important part- it doesn't diminish Cyrodiil as a whole for everyone else. Same goes for Bombers and Gankers.

Ballgroups aren't that. While I tremendously respect the ol' Alegbra craziness someone's doing as they pour over parses and logs to craft the perfect 12 man group that's effectively unkillable, can shrug off 4-5 sieges at once, zoom around unhindered by any CC, and all the rest? I also know it's a blight on a great game and pushes more players away than it supports.

I don't mean to disregard the theorycrafting or organization. Nope. What I want to voice is this - you know you're making Cyrodiil less than it should be, right? Lag increases, less Zerg on Zerg, less of what it was originally, right? It's just too heavyhanded and it's imbalanced by mechanics that have nothing to do with individual play, a la X'ers and Bombers.

You do you, man. We all do. But please don't equate what Ballgroups currently are to X'ers, Bombers, or good play. It's something different, and you probably realize that.

The_Meathead · November 3

EDIT: bungled the quote, was replying to "I play the game the right way and you shouldn't be allowed to play any other way."

The_Meathead · November 3

The_Meathead wrote: »

EDIT: bungled the quote, was replying to "I play the game the right way and you shouldn't be allowed to play any other way."

But... I mean, really... isn't that -exactly- what a Ballgroup is? "Don't just play. Play as a Ballgroup too or be pulled, AoEd, and wrecked by our unkillable blob?"

evLRise · November 3

The_Meathead wrote: »

Yeaaah.. that's really not it.

I respect the hell out of X'ers who can pull off a 1v(several) win with a great build, some serious twitch, and running around a discarded red solo cup in the yard for 10 minutes to manage a win against bigger odds. That's not how I play, but I can see the serious talent, effort, and -this is the most important part- it doesn't diminish Cyrodiil as a whole for everyone else. Same goes for Bombers and Gankers.

Ballgroups aren't that. While I tremendously respect the ol' Alegbra craziness someone's doing as they pour over parses and logs to craft the perfect 12 man group that's effectively unkillable, can shrug off 4-5 sieges at once, zoom around unhindered by any CC, and all the rest? I also know it's a blight on a great game and pushes more players away than it supports.

I don't mean to disregard the theorycrafting or organization. Nope. What I want to voice is this - you know you're making Cyrodiil less than it should be, right? Lag increases, less Zerg on Zerg, less of what it was originally, right? It's just too heavyhanded and it's imbalanced by mechanics that have nothing to do with individual play, a la X'ers and Bombers.

You do you, man. We all do. But please don't equate what Ballgroups currently are to X'ers, Bombers, or good play. It's something different, and you probably realize that.

The same way you can X 1v3 you can 8v24 as a ballgroup.

Zerg v zerg is boring in my opinion. I X'd for years. Got incredibly bored by it. Every solo player nowadays is a tank. I can't be bothered stacking 300-400 ult for balorgh and hoping for lucky crits whenever i come across a 45k hp guy.

Running solo i usually run into 4 scenarios in 99% of cases.
1. Solo players that have no idea what they're doing. You literally just stomp them for 0 satisfaction
2. Big zergs
3. Coordinated groups
4. Smallscales.

Literally not a single one of these scenarios are fun. So i'll take my 8v30-40 and fights vs other groups 2 times / week thank you very much.

More random fun facts: all the good ballgroups are made almost entirely of people that are top tier at X'ing, dueling, smallscaling etc., often even endgame PvE.

When playing in a group you do pretty much the same thing u do when you solo, except you coordinate with other people at the same time. If anything, the skill ceiling is miles above solo play.

People who complain that group play is easy should just make their own group, get stomped and then come back to tell us how easy it is.

The_Meathead · November 3

I absolutely didn't say it was *easy*, at least not on the organizing and effort. Please don't take that from my comments.

Someone up top is phenomenal at organization, planning, theory-crafting, and that's a huge part of what ESO is and should be.

What I *am* saying is this: Ballgrouping in its current state with Cyrodiil's current pop caps is ruining Cyrodiil, and I imagine most who play in them are aware but are simply willing to allow that for the sake of success. That's gonna eventually bite them and all the rest of us in the (not sure what word I can use that won't be censored?) posterior?

Changes need to be made by the Devs, but surely some self-policing about stuff like camping Spawns could be done? Why actively try to break the game you enjoy?

Shanee · November 3

Open world PvP should be restricted to 1v1 only.

It only makes sense, right?

evLRise · November 3

The_Meathead wrote: »

Ballgrouping in its current state with Cyrodiil's current pop caps is ruining Cyrodiil,

If you want to blame something for the lag and pop cap, you can blame the underperforming servers and general optimization negligence. Everyone would be happy to have better performance and increased pop cap, group player or not.

Iriidius · November 3

evLRise wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

Zerg on Zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO, certainly in ESO PvP, and you don't care. To heck with that! It's all about you.

Ah yes. The "I play the game the right way and you shouldn't be allowed to play any other way" argument.

Fun fact - the 3 stragglers trying to fight you at the ol' Lumber Mill would have most probably died to a full group anyway, regardless of being coordinated or not.
Fun fact #2 - you're more likely to be zerged by random zerg groups than ballgroups.
Fun fact #3 - for whatever reason, one that most people really fail to grasp: Coordinated wins vs uncoordinated. Imagine if you would consistenly be able to beat a 12-man organized group with a 12-man unorganized. Something would be fundamentally wrong with the game.

Im surprised people don't cry about X'ers as well, since it's basically the same thing, just at a reduced scale. Probably because you can zerg down solo players, but vs coordinated groups it's not that easy.

Fun Fact - That 3 stragglers die to also an unorganized full group or 3 organized players does not make fighting them with a full organized group fairer but even more unfair and worse as you choose to play unfair because you like not giving your opponents even a chance and not because you have to play unfair to win. It was just an example how unfair ballgroups play and not a fight that ballgroups are expected to loose.

Fun fact #2 random groups are more common than ballgroups therefore more often seen and can be zerged by bigger groups or even killed by smaller groups. Also zerging is only one of the bad things ballgroups do.

Fun fact #3 Nobody asked for unorganized groups to consistantly beat organized groups, In a 12v12 any advantage will decide the fight because it is an even match numberwise. But it should be possible at all if the 12 unorganized surprise the ballgroup or are much better players.
And 30 unorganized should consistently beat a ballgroup rather than consistently getting beaten by it. 30 man are a zerg and Some say ballgroups are groups of bomber.
Bombers kill squishy stacked practically afk zergs still often failing and can not survive the zerg or
even 1 player attacking them except by hiding.
Ballgroups bomb spreadout players or solo players without counterplay and can survive extremely outnumbered.

Fun Fact #4 Players cry about 1vXers as well. But 1vXers are just good solo players and do not get stat/% buffs unavailable for other playstiles.

Servadei · November 3

I just leave whenever I see a ballgroup. They're so boring.

EF321 · November 3

I don't have problem with power levels that coordinated full group can achieve, but I have problem with how every single group I've seen choses to use that... to troll some pugs? Run around walls for 45 minutes in a keep that isn't even UA?

Sleepsin · November 3

I'm not sure which is more ridiculous. The ball groups that repeatly kill the same 7-8 people over and over, or those same 7-8 people that just keep running head first into the ball groups.

moderatelyfatman · November 3

The_Meathead wrote: »

You know what you're doing.

You're sucking the joy out of the game for anyone and everyone that isn't you.

Zerg on Zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO, certainly in ESO PvP, and you don't care. To heck with that! It's all about you.

You're gonna manipulate the shield-stacking heal-stacking snowtreaders-wearing heck out of things to the very utmost, to run down those 3 stragglers trying to fight you at the ol' Lumber Mill, because dang it - that's how you win. Please don't try to say you exist to fight other Ballgroups, because if that time ever existed it's long past.

I mean, I get it. Winning feels good, right? But at SOME point, winning has a lot less to do with you and a lot more to do with advantages that should have been snipped by our Devs. For whatever reason, they're not gonna do it, so you're gonna take advantage. Don't get me wrong now, I love theory-crafting and working as a team, and I see that facet. But... c'mon, now. You know. You know it's too much, I've even seen a lot of you say it.

There's a difference between "legal" and "right," and ... well, you guys erred on the side of "it's allowed, so we'll do it."

Fair enough, but deep down inside you know you're killing the thing you love (or "like," whatever, I won't commit you to anything too grandiose.)

Cyrodiil is the best part of ESO, but you're willing to smother it. I just hope you admit to yourself that the diminishing participation, the lag, the unnecessary withering of something pretty awesome is at least in a big part on you.

I'd have much less of an issue with ballgroups that are playing the game as intended: capturing keeps, taking scrolls and defending their home territory.
But these things make ball groups vulnerable (e.g. standing on flags) so the bad ball groups resort to flaggin keeps and runing around in circles so they can wipe players who are trying to take their keeps back. They basically spoil all the fun for the players and then you hear about players abandoning Cyrodiil....

Tommy_The_Gun · November 3

The issue with so called "Ball Groups" is that this play style has not received a single nerf since this game exists. I am serious here. Since 2014, there was not a single, not even a tiny one nerf / adjustment to the effectiveness of this method of playing the game. Other play-style got wrecked a couple of time & more, while BG have been only receiving indirect or even direct buffs.

There is a reason why this playstyle dominates. It is almost totally "idiot-proof" and gives insane effort - to - result ratio. It basically converts total noobs into immortal gods. Yes, there are different ball groups with different skill level, and you can clearly see that, but even the "bad ones" are very often impossible to beat, not even mentioning a bit more skilled ones (if you play for a while, then you can learn to recognise it).

Seeing how this play-style (as I mentioned) has not received a single nerf, ever, chances are - it will never get a proper adjustment it 101% deserves, as it seems it gets a preferential treatment from Devs (Their PvP target audience ?!)

For as long as this play style wont be properly adjusted, PvP in this game will remain dead.

evLRise · November 3

Iriidius wrote: »

Fun Fact - That 3 stragglers die to also an unorganized full group or 3 organized players does not make fighting them with a full organized group fairer but even more unfair and worse as you choose to play unfair because you like not giving your opponents even a chance and not because you have to play unfair to win. It was just an example how unfair ballgroups play and not a fight that ballgroups are expected to loose.

No one wastes time to chase 1-2-3 people around unless you randomly start to attack them and try to dismount or something, in which case, deal with it.

Iriidius wrote: »

Fun fact #2 random groups are more common than ballgroups therefore more often seen and can be zerged by bigger groups or even killed by smaller groups. Also zerging is only one of the bad things ballgroups do.

Every decent group avoids playing in places where you have people from your own faction, as they just increase the chances of you getting bombed, VD'd / Plagued etc.

Iriidius wrote: »

Fun fact #3 Nobody asked for unorganized groups to consistantly beat organized groups, In a 12v12 any advantage will decide the fight because it is an even match numberwise. But it should be possible at all if the 12 unorganized surprise the ballgroup or are much better players.

Try doing a 2v2 / 3v3 unorganized vs organized. See how many times out of 20-30 you win.

Iriidius wrote: »

And 30 unorganized should consistently beat a ballgroup rather than consistently getting beaten by it.

Do 3 randoms consistently beat 1 good X'er?

Iriidius wrote: »

Fun Fact #4 Players cry about 1vXers as well. But 1vXers are just good solo players and do not get stat/% buffs unavailable for other playstiles.

Players cry about whatever beats them as it's easier to point fingers than learn how to deal with it.

Personally I dont even know what even made you think your opinion about ballgroups is valid in any way, as you literally got kicked from a group which only had started and had nothing but beginner players at that time. It's all OP and unfair since when you try it yourself pressing 1 button every 16s to keep a heal up proves to be too complicated of a task.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The issue with so called "Ball Groups" is that this play style has not received a single nerf since this game exists. I am serious here. Since 2014, there was not a single, not even a tiny one nerf / adjustment to the effectiveness of this method of playing the game. Other play-style got wrecked a couple of time & more, while BG have been only receiving indirect or even direct buffs.

Group size adjustments, Harmony Nerf, Inability to purge, Plague nerf, Proximity Deto nerf, Graveyard nerf, Dark Convergence nerf, Rush of Agony nerf, siege weapon buffs, skills that knockback / dispel shields / deny healing etc.

Vulkunne · November 3

To make this as simple as possible, the main problem with a ball group is they eliminate the need for a siege and counter-siege.

If DC is sieging, we'll say Roe Keep and AD is defending, a DC ball group (for example) can just go in there, do the siege and eliminate everyone in that keep, with 1% causalities on their side, and not requiring anyone else from the faction to help and AD inside the keep not standing hardly a chance in hell at surviving.

This is the whole issue. And people in the ball group, are just along for the ride spamming buffs. They're hardly 'the best players' in the game or at 1vX. They're just the laziest zerg possible but they are smartly organized. The problem is, they bring an end to PvP anywhere they go. If you look at examples from WW1 and WW2, you'll see that everything followed battlelines, in which regions were won or lost depending on how these stretched and what tactics were deployed. It wasn't one Panzer division winning the war on their own, or one stack of T34s doing the same. It was a combined effort, it was raw and real, it was not fluent and over in 5 minutes.

PvP needs to get back to its original vision. No matter what anyone says or thinks what 'they are' if PvP is going to continue then it should never be just about them. It's about the cause, it's about people fighting over the things they are passionate about. And when you have a small number of people, the sum of whose actions serves to just troll a situation important to those fighting for it, it leaves us with a punky feeling and makes people not want to participate.

TechMaybeHic · November 3

The "pooping where they eat" part should be emphasized. At some point, whether it's balanced or should be adjusted in some way by developers becomes irrelevant. The community of gamers has leaned on this developer responsiblity in every game to absolve themselves of blame.

This is why we can't have nice things

Tommy_The_Gun · November 3

evLRise wrote: »

Group size adjustments, Harmony Nerf, Inability to purge, Plague nerf, Proximity Deto nerf, Graveyard nerf, Dark Convergence nerf, Rush of Agony nerf, siege weapon buffs, skills that knockback / dispel shields / deny healing etc.

Max group size reduction had more to do with Cyro population ninja-nerf. I mean I would be silly if we still had 24 man groups as it would be like 1 group = 1/3 Faction population...

Harmony Nerf had more to do with PvE trials rather than PvP, but even if - aside from ball groups, it was also used by Bombers to fight against ball groups, so that nerf ended up being a buff for ball groups.

As for the Purge & Plaguebreak - it was working for like a couple of days, but then ZOS nerfed this set in a hot fix as it was indeed a counter to a ball groups. Besides, even when this set was working against BGs - they basically stopped purge spam & replaced it with heal stacking.

Other things you mentioned were used primarily by bombers to counter ball groups... and those things got nerfed. Currently, we ended up in a situation where there aren't any (even weak ones) viable counters to fight off a ball group. And even bad / inexperienced ball groups can easily heal through sieges. It has gotten to the point when even other ball group can't eliminate other ball group - hence why you can often see BGs actively avoiding each other cuz they know they will just waste time & not get any AP.

evLRise · November 3

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Harmony Nerf had more to do with PvE trials rather than PvP, but even if - aside from ball groups, it was also used by Bombers to fight against ball groups, so that nerf ended up being a buff for ball groups.

I mean, you can already stop right there with the nonsense. Synergy was easily #1 top damage pre-harmony nerf in every single group comp. There's a reason people were running 2-3 sorcs, 2-3 necros and fewer DDs.

Vulkunne wrote: »

people in the ball group, are just along for the ride spamming buffs. They're hardly 'the best players' in the game or at 1vX. They're just the laziest zerg possible but they are smartly organized.

It's probably just pure luck that people who play in the stronger organized groups are kinda the same people that end up in high stages of duel tournaments etc.

I mean, I kinda get it. If all the people crying OP would try it themselves and realize they'll get kicked for underperforming, they couldn't have the OP excuse anymore, and that's a big ego blow.

Aldoss · November 3

I'm as bitter towards ball groups as they come, but the harmony nerf was 100% a ball group nerf.

I'm not sure why they're claiming plaguebreak was a nerf to ballgroups though. Its introduction definitely was, but it was very quickly adjusted after those clips came out showing how effective it was.

And yet, then along came hybridization and suddenly everyone could use a resto backbar and stack 12 vigors and 12 regens. Why waste magicka on purging when you can just have 10k HPS from 2 skills?

Plague does nothing to ball groups anymore.

disky · November 3

PvP is not my content of choice for a lot of reasons, but I feel like appealing to ball groups without addressing the game itself is shortsighted. Players are only exploiting the mechanics they have at their disposal because that's what players do. It's up to ZOS to fix it.

Amottica · November 3

If so-called "ball groups" were sucking the fun out of Cyrodiil, then Cyrodiil would have lacked any fun for a decade. Ok, so Cyrodiil could be more fun, but lag and stuck-in-combat are the main issues there.

Find a solid, organized group to run with. One with a worthy leader and players who listen and follow directions. Oh, and on comms. Such a design works well for taking down large groups, especially the large groups we get in Cyrodiil, as they are not as well coordinated.

Vulkunne · November 3

evLRise wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Harmony Nerf had more to do with PvE trials rather than PvP, but even if - aside from ball groups, it was also used by Bombers to fight against ball groups, so that nerf ended up being a buff for ball groups.

I mean, you can already stop right there with the nonsense. Synergy was easily #1 top damage pre-harmony nerf in every single group comp. There's a reason people were running 2-3 sorcs, 2-3 necros and fewer DDs.

Vulkunne wrote: »

people in the ball group, are just along for the ride spamming buffs. They're hardly 'the best players' in the game or at 1vX. They're just the laziest zerg possible but they are smartly organized.

It's probably just pure luck that people who play in the stronger organized groups are kinda the same people that end up in high stages of duel tournaments etc.

I mean, I kinda get it. If all the people crying OP would try it themselves and realize they'll get kicked for underperforming, they couldn't have the OP excuse anymore, and that's a big ego blow.

@evLRise

Thanks for your reply. So, I don't doubt there are some in the 'strong organized groups' who are duelers and so forth. In the days of the Roman Legion many Centurions were 'champions' themselves, which ironically is why they didn't live very long cause everyone wanted to challenge them.

But I look at it like this. It's one thing to have skill and grace, maybe be an honorable person too, right? Maybe. But the way the group mechanics are setup it's like everyone in the ball group is fighting on like a supped-up level. In other words, not only are there maybe a couple really strong people in the group, but now everyone in the group is fighting on an artificially strong level.

I take no shots at what is genuine. However, 12 to 15 people wiping an entire server of let's say 'AD', just knocking 'em down like bowling pins IS possible but should never be a COMMON occurrence. Doesn't matter if its AD, could be EP or DC. A Ball group of 12 to 15, we'll say 10% of that is your idea of 'Champion' players and so forth, is wiping at a time 20, 30, 50+ AD and not dying at all. Many times, not one death, or if there is a death its one unless we find some way to wipe the whole group. And so that's my beef with this and that's why this is such a bad thing. Not only do these Champions not shine for their own might but these others tag along, just slamming down on a staff or what not are just there to provide buffs. That kind of synergy is toxic and is about as bad as having a really large, super massive EP zerg and like 20 people sitting on the back doing absolutely nothing whatsoever, which I have seen many times.

Going up against the poor folk like me who are automatically outclassed not because of those Champions experience of skill but because of the centralized buffs getting pooled together by an exploitable bunch of group mechanics. Do you see what I mean? That's not PvP that's more like PvM (Player vs Machine). It totally skirts the entire point of PvP. For reference in some games like Star Craft 2 you can go against the AI and to me fighting a ball group is more like this because the machine is doing everything. It would be like a PvE run where I'm not fighting the boss itself, I'm stuck in an unbreakable loop fighting a mechanic and going nowhere. Perhaps those are not the best examples, but I think they work for this purpose.

Elendir2am · November 3

evLRise wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The issue with so called "Ball Groups" is that this play style has not received a single nerf since this game exists. I am serious here. Since 2014, there was not a single, not even a tiny one nerf / adjustment to the effectiveness of this method of playing the game. Other play-style got wrecked a couple of time & more, while BG have been only receiving indirect or even direct buffs.

Group size adjustments, Harmony Nerf, Inability to purge, Plague nerf, Proximity Deto nerf, Graveyard nerf, Dark Convergence nerf, Rush of Agony nerf, siege weapon buffs, skills that knockback / dispel shields / deny healing etc.

Yes, all that changes you listed helped ball groups a lot.

darvaria · November 3

Ball groups eliminate the DESIRE to go to Cyrodiil. Only reason one needs to go is to complete some easy endeavor like "Kill one player in Cyrodiil".

@ZOS: At least give a reply to these 100's of pleas.

forum_gpt · November 3

The_Meathead wrote: »

You know what you're doing.

You're sucking the joy out of the game for anyone and everyone that isn't you.

Zerg on Zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO, certainly in ESO PvP, and you don't care. To heck with that! It's all about you.

You're gonna manipulate the shield-stacking heal-stacking snowtreaders-wearing heck out of things to the very utmost, to run down those 3 stragglers trying to fight you at the ol' Lumber Mill, because dang it - that's how you win. Please don't try to say you exist to fight other Ballgroups, because if that time ever existed it's long past.

I mean, I get it. Winning feels good, right? But at SOME point, winning has a lot less to do with you and a lot more to do with advantages that should have been snipped by our Devs. For whatever reason, they're not gonna do it, so you're gonna take advantage. Don't get me wrong now, I love theory-crafting and working as a team, and I see that facet. But... c'mon, now. You know. You know it's too much, I've even seen a lot of you say it.

There's a difference between "legal" and "right," and ... well, you guys erred on the side of "it's allowed, so we'll do it."

Fair enough, but deep down inside you know you're killing the thing you love (or "like," whatever, I won't commit you to anything too grandiose.)

Cyrodiil is the best part of ESO, but you're willing to smother it. I just hope you admit to yourself that the diminishing participation, the lag, the unnecessary withering of something pretty awesome is at least in a big part on you.

I get where you're coming from, but I have to disagree on a few points. First, the joy of PvP in ESO means different things for different people. For some, that means large-scale, coordinated battles; for others, it’s small, tactical fights. Both playstyles can coexist, even if they lead to frustrations on both sides.

The suggestion that players who strategize and optimize are responsible for "sucking the joy" out of the game feels unfair. Optimizing your setup—whether it's stacking shields, running snowtreaders, or whatever else—is part of the PvP challenge, and, let's be honest, most players involved in organized PvP do it to maximize their chances of winning. It's within the game rules, and in any competitive setting, players will take every advantage the system allows. Blaming them for it instead of questioning why certain mechanics are still enabled by the devs seems misplaced.

As for Cyrodiil's issues with lag and declining participation, those problems are complex. Server lag has been a known problem in Cyrodiil for ages, and it impacts everyone, not just the organized ball groups. I’d argue it's more a matter of technical limitations and lack of prioritization from the developers rather than the fault of players choosing to play the way the system currently permits.

Cyrodiil's future could be a lot brighter if the devs considered adjustments to create fairer matchups (like a separate queue for smaller groups, for example), and more balanced mechanics. But until those changes happen, expecting players to handicap themselves to keep things “fair” isn’t realistic. The responsibility for these issues lies with the game design, not with the players trying to make the most of it.

baguette_poolish · November 4

evLRise wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Harmony Nerf had more to do with PvE trials rather than PvP, but even if - aside from ball groups, it was also used by Bombers to fight against ball groups, so that nerf ended up being a buff for ball groups.

I mean, you can already stop right there with the nonsense. Synergy was easily #1 top damage pre-harmony nerf in every single group comp. There's a reason people were running 2-3 sorcs, 2-3 necros and fewer DDs.

Vulkunne wrote: »

people in the ball group, are just along for the ride spamming buffs. They're hardly 'the best players' in the game or at 1vX. They're just the laziest zerg possible but they are smartly organized.

It's probably just pure luck that people who play in the stronger organized groups are kinda the same people that end up in high stages of duel tournaments etc.

I mean, I kinda get it. If all the people crying OP would try it themselves and realize they'll get kicked for underperforming, they couldn't have the OP excuse anymore, and that's a big ego blow.

There is no way this is not just bait lol, its actually insane that anyone playing in a ballgroup thinks that what they are going can't be done by other players in the same position. lol all ball group players can be replaced with a doorknob and the results would be same.

The_Meathead · November 4

forum_gpt wrote: »

I get where you're coming from, but I have to disagree on a few points. First, the joy of PvP in ESO means different things for different people. For some, that means large-scale, coordinated battles; for others, it’s small, tactical fights. Both playstyles can coexist, even if they lead to frustrations on both sides.

The suggestion that players who strategize and optimize are responsible for "sucking the joy" out of the game feels unfair. Optimizing your setup—whether it's stacking shields, running snowtreaders, or whatever else—is part of the PvP challenge, and, let's be honest, most players involved in organized PvP do it to maximize their chances of winning. It's within the game rules, and in any competitive setting, players will take every advantage the system allows. Blaming them for it instead of questioning why certain mechanics are still enabled by the devs seems misplaced.

As for Cyrodiil's issues with lag and declining participation, those problems are complex. Server lag has been a known problem in Cyrodiil for ages, and it impacts everyone, not just the organized ball groups. I’d argue it's more a matter of technical limitations and lack of prioritization from the developers rather than the fault of players choosing to play the way the system currently permits.

Cyrodiil's future could be a lot brighter if the devs considered adjustments to create fairer matchups (like a separate queue for smaller groups, for example), and more balanced mechanics. But until those changes happen, expecting players to handicap themselves to keep things “fair” isn’t realistic. The responsibility for these issues lies with the game design, not with the players trying to make the most of it.

I don't blame people for optimizing, since Theorycrafting is a tremendous strength of ESO vs most other MMOs. I respect the ability to do so and even admire the math side of someone really planning out a 12-man group to the utmost.

The problem is, it's out of hand because of stacked heals, stacked shields esepcially since Scribing, CC-immunity and lack of threat. Maybe even more so, it's out of hand because populations are so limited it's rare for enough of any one Faction to be online and present to stand up to a 12 man group using these methods - again, because they're so damn amplified atm and lacking true threats in the form of CC or even Sieges. There's just not much of a counter for them, and BGs sure don't often seem interested in fighting one another - maybe because it's not enjoyable?

Yes, that's on the Devs to fix and until they do, players are absolutely able to take advantage. No argument, BUT (you knew the but was coming, right?) it's myopic of Ballgroup players to think that doing so isn't having a negative impact on longterm PvP in ESO and particularly in Cyrodiil. It drives away other players and will eventually dry up Cyrodiil, perhaps.

I'm someone who doesn't feel right playing a ludicrously OPed build when I know an item or set is just crazy imbalanced. It makes it no fun for me, let alone anyone I'm fighting. I guess it's like that? I didn't see any groups of 12 players stacked on each other in the Cyrodiil demos at Launch, so I have a hard time believing this was the actual intent of the game, either. Which begs the question, "Why haven't they fixed it?" and leads to you saying, "therefore it's fair game." You're right, but... well, you know the rest.

As to lag, it's purely anecdotal of me to say that I only really encounter lag when I encounter Ballgroups in Cyrodiil. With rare exception, that's the only time I see it and it doesn't occur in Zerg on Zerg where players are more spread out and perhaps using less of certain abilities in maximum rotation? I don't know, honestly, and as I said it's just my anecdotal experience being stated, though I have seen many others state the same.

I appreciate the civil and measured response from you, started this thread while drinking with my wife haha, and frankly am happy I wrote something coherent in the starting post. The sentiment IS true, however. Ballgroups do ruin Cryodiil for everyone else, and eventually that's gonna come home even for them.

Whether they care? I can't say, but I'm pretty sure they know.