Oh, Ballgroups

evLRise

baguette_poolish wrote: »

There is no way this is not just bait lol, its actually insane that anyone playing in a ballgroup thinks that what they are going can't be done by other players in the same position. lol all ball group players can be replaced with a doorknob and the results would be same.

Then make your own group and go after them lol. We can only wonder what's going to happen.

Vulkunne wrote: »

@evLRise

Thanks for your reply. So, I don't doubt there are some in the 'strong organized groups' who are duelers and so forth. In the days of the Roman Legion many Centurions were 'champions' themselves, which ironically is why they didn't live very long cause everyone wanted to challenge them. But I look at it like this. It's one thing to have skill and grace, maybe be an honorable person too, right? Maybe. But the way the group mechanics are setup it's like everyone in the ball group is fighting on like a supped-up level. In other words, not only are there maybe a couple really strong people in the group, but now everyone in the group is fighting on an artificially strong level.

I take no shots at what is genuine. However, 12 to 15 people wiping an entire server of let's say 'AD', just knocking 'em down like bowling pins IS possible but should never be a COMMON occurrence. Doesn't matter if its AD, could be EP or DC. A Ball group of 12 to 15, we'll say 10% of that is your idea of 'Champion' players and so forth, is wiping at a time 20, 30, 50+ AD and not dying at all. Many times, not one death, or if there is a death its one unless we find some way to wipe the whole group. And so that's my beef with this and that's why this is such a bad thing. Not only do these Champions not shine for their own might but these others tag along, just slamming down on a staff or what not are just there to provide buffs. That kind of synergy is toxic and is about as bad as having a really large, super massive EP zerg and like 20 people sitting on the back doing absolutely nothing whatsoever, which I have seen many times.

Going up against the poor folk like me who are automatically outclassed not because of those Champions experience of skill but because of the centralized buffs getting pooled together by an exploitable bunch of group mechanics. Do you see what I mean? That's not PvP that's more like PvM (Player vs Machine). It totally skirts the entire point of PvP. For reference in some games like Star Craft 2 you can go against the AI and to me fighting a ball group is more like this because the machine is doing everything. It would be like a PvE run where I'm not fighting the boss itself, I'm stuck in an unbreakable loop fighting a mechanic and going nowhere. Perhaps those are not the best examples, but I think they work for this purpose.

I wouldn't mind participating exclusively in evenly numbered fights, but that almost never happens. Duelling a equally strong player in cyro is super fun, but in most cases someone will join the fight and interrupt it, often more than 1 person.

Fighting while outnumbering the enemy is incredibly unfun for me, and while fighting while outnumbered is engaging, often the "outnumber" part is rather extreme, when i get chased by 10-20 players while im playing solo or maybe duo, which makes the fight pretty unwinnable in most scenarios. Either that or i have to kite for 10 minutes straight until half of them get bored and leave and i have a more realistic winning chance.

Organized play provides a fix for both. It gives a more realistic chance to win while heavily outnumbered due to coordination, and it allows for those duel scenarios vs other groups.

Most groups really enjoy fighting each other, although you generally won't see that since we go to places where people won't bother us. If we were to do it close to other players, zergs would start sieging / would get pulled and kill one of the groups through Vicious Death procs etc. and more or less invalidate a win.

So why do people expect me to do something that ruins my experience and then complain that i do something which ruins their experience? Sounds a bit like hypocrisy to me. It's not like anything's stopping those people to do the same thing, optimize and run as a group. You have all the tools available. You have plenty of groups players who would be more than happy to teach you how to do it since it means more competition and nice fights. You might even realize it's pretty fun and really challenging.

Unless, of course, you end up with a group that refuses Group vs Group requests and only zergs. Then everyone else will hunt you down.

Four_Fingers

Some people won't be happy till ESO becomes Fortnite.

exoib

Not only Cyrodiil, I tried to queue with my gf to a BG and got ballgroups against us 2 matches in a row, in 8v8.

8 casual PvPers on one side and 8 cringelord ballgroup players on the other side, how is this fun, we both quit ofcourse.

BXR_Lonestar

As someone who plays in a ball group on a weekly basis, I can tell you that we are FAR from unkillable. Yes, it is a challenge to kill us, but we die just like any other group, especially in a combined arms fight where we're getting sieged and pressed by one or more groups.

For those who complain about the strength of ballgroups, you are basically complaining about the same principals of high-end PVE. Stacking sets, buffs, and bonuses to maximize group potential, and teamwork to coordinate movements and focus high-priority targets. This is all ballgrouping is - highly coordinated groups working in unison together. Yes, it gives you an advantage, but not an insurmountable advantage that other people can't have by utilizing well-placed siege, terrain, and coordinated tactics and formations.

And yes, I even know how it is fighting against these ballgroups when you don't have a comped out group of your own. I spent the vast majority of yesterday fighting comped groups on red and yellow. Mostly undermanned at that. And we were still able to achieve our objectives. It was just a long, drawn out fight. But its doable if you know what you are doing.

I will also say this: cross-healing and HOT stacking is far less of an issue than you think it is. I've seen how it works out with a ball group without healers or without sufficient healing, and I've seen how it works with the healers. Without dedicated healers, life far more miserable, and everyone has to play far more defensive than they can with dedicated healers. If you are having a problem fighting these groups or taking them out, how about you tip your hat in acknowledge that it could just be chalked up to really good/skilled healer play on the other side?

Joy_Division

So what do you want organized groups to do?

Intentionally run inefficient comps and make poor decisions? Even though the players the groups are fighting have zero pity, have made optimized builds, and are doing the utmost to defeat them?

This isn't a family picnic which varsity athletes are playing against seven-year old nephews and fifty-year olds with chronic arthritis. Cyrodiil is mostly comprised of sweaty veterans. And contrary to public impression, the other organized groups on different factions are heated rivals, who would like nothing better than embarrass opposing guilds. So they optimize the best they can - "shield-stacking heal-stacking snowtreaders-wearing heck out of things to the very utmost" - to avoid suffering such a fate while doing their best to wipe the other guild group 12-0.

It is not fair to ask competitive players to intentionally run bad builds, play poorly, and suffer defeats and wipes because you think they are too good or the perfectly legal and ordinary mechanics they are using are too strong. If I am dueling someone I know, there might be a gentleman's agreement not to use mechanics that we both mutually feel ZOS has poorly balanced. But this is open world Cyrodiil, where opposing groups, gankers, bombers, and more generally, "the zerg," will do everything in their power to try to win.

That being said, I do agree with the opinion that organized groups are overall too powerful relative to what a small population of unorganized players can manage. That is absolutely true. But the reality is that is ZOS's responsibility and ZOS's fault as they are literally taking our money to field, administer, and adjudicate a competitive environment.. I don't care if ZOS has been negligent in that regard. Asking people to run non-competitive build and suffer defeats and wipes they otherwise would not have when they themselves have to fight their ""shield-stacking heal-stacking snowtreaders-wearing heck out of things to the very utmost" rivals is not a fair ask

The_Meathead

Joy_Division wrote: »

That being said, I do agree with the opinion that organized groups are overall too powerful relative to what a small population of unorganized players can manage. That is absolutely true. But the reality is that is ZOS's responsibility and ZOS's fault as they are literally taking our money to field, administer, and adjudicate a competitive environment.. I don't care if ZOS has been negligent in that regard. Asking people to run non-competitive build and suffer defeats and wipes they otherwise would not have when they themselves have to fight their ""shield-stacking heal-stacking snowtreaders-wearing heck out of things to the very utmost" rivals is not a fair ask

You're right, it's on ZOS. It's unfair to expect players to not do their best, even if it has bad impact on the whole.

I personally have ditched blatantly OPed sets or Mythics during moments of ludicrous imbalance because I felt like a jerk using them, but that's not how everyone thinks, and I get the draw of optimizing to the fullest extent. Nor is that a 1:1 analogy, by any means.

It's just out of hand atm. Shield-stacking, easy CC immunity, nerfs to things that offer a counter(!), and especially the small size of the population has made an optimized 12-man into something akin to the worst of mechanically OPed behemoths.

So, loosened tongue after a few drinks the other night, I hammered out this thread in a sort of resigned frustration at the situation that shouldn't be present. I've tried to give credit where it's due to theorycrafting and organization on the side of BG players, because it's impressive, but... yeah, I do think it diminishes Cyrodiil on the whole in current form.

Hopefully, ZOS at some point reins things substantially with Cross-heals, Shield-stacking, Snowtreaders, or whatever else it takes so that Ballgroups aren't just so *over-the-top* strong and they're more dependent on good play (which is absolutely present in some of them) then they are on the ever-growing heap of advantages the playstyle offers through stacking mechanics. Then we'd get the best of both worlds, where players can optimize to the fullest as they should, and the best of BGs shine as special, while offering a more substantial avenue of counter (notice I'm not saying free) by larger groups of less organized players who work together in the moment.

Anyway, fair point on your part, and this will probably be my last post in the thread.

Aggrovious

The_Meathead wrote: »

Cyrodiil is the best part of ESO.

I don't know about that man. Ball groups are an issue though. They also exist in Guild Wars 2 and its the same crap different game.

Joy_Division

@The_Meathead

No worries. Your are just expressing your frustration and what a lot of people are thinking. I'm just saying, having been in groups on all three factions, that there always comes a time when the uncomfortable talk happens, becuase the group is getting wiped, loses, or too many mistakes are made. Those are extremely unpleasant and awkward situations that nobody wants any part of. I don't think non group players understand that is part of running in a group, and nobody wants to be judged in such a spotlight where there mistake or death or sub optimal play is put in front of their peers.

It is what it is.

Soraka

I've always defended ball groups, but I'm starting to agree that they are posing a problem for the ongoing health of the game. I'm not one to blame players for responsibility that lies with the developers, such as lag and power creep.

However, the behavior of ball groups has turned more unsportsmanlike. Easily go into a keep, but don't take it. Not because you can't, but because it's more fun to grind the same 7-8 pugs over and over again. When people DO leave (because it is boring), you drop siege to bring us back in. If that doesn't work you take the keep and move on to repeat the cycle again and again. To each their own. However, I find it very disingenuous to defend this behavior at this point when it is pretty clear when this happens your competition gets bored, gives up, gets angry at the game, etc. I get that your ball group of 10 people (or whatever) is having a blast. But you are losing people to play against when you engage in this behavior excessively. Is it your fault the game works this way? No. Do you care to take any responsibility at all in your behavior, though?

I find it's a lot more fun for everyone to not see the same thing over and over again for hours.

Sleepsin

Joy_Division wrote: »

So what do you want organized groups to do?

Intentionally run inefficient comps and make poor decisions? Even though the players the groups are fighting have zero pity, have made optimized builds, and are doing the utmost to defeat them?

This isn't a family picnic which varsity athletes are playing against seven-year old nephews and fifty-year olds with chronic arthritis. Cyrodiil is mostly comprised of sweaty veterans. And contrary to public impression, the other organized groups on different factions are heated rivals, who would like nothing better than embarrass opposing guilds. So they optimize the best they can - "shield-stacking heal-stacking snowtreaders-wearing heck out of things to the very utmost" - to avoid suffering such a fate while doing their best to wipe the other guild group 12-0.

It is not fair to ask competitive players to intentionally run bad builds, play poorly, and suffer defeats and wipes because you think they are too good or the perfectly legal and ordinary mechanics they are using are too strong. If I am dueling someone I know, there might be a gentleman's agreement not to use mechanics that we both mutually feel ZOS has poorly balanced. But this is open world Cyrodiil, where opposing groups, gankers, bombers, and more generally, "the zerg," will do everything in their power to try to win.

That being said, I do agree with the opinion that organized groups are overall too powerful relative to what a small population of unorganized players can manage. That is absolutely true. But the reality is that is ZOS's responsibility and ZOS's fault as they are literally taking our money to field, administer, and adjudicate a competitive environment.. I don't care if ZOS has been negligent in that regard. Asking people to run non-competitive build and suffer defeats and wipes they otherwise would not have when they themselves have to fight their ""shield-stacking heal-stacking snowtreaders-wearing heck out of things to the very utmost" rivals is not a fair ask

Not be a tool and spend hours in a keep running the inner and spawn camping.

TechMaybeHic

Scores have been so lopsided that they are more pointless than ever. Just walk away and let ball groups take an empty keep even if it means a scroll. Let another ball group engage them or let them rot. Eventually they'll probably chase to where you are, but just keep leaving.

evLRise

Soraka wrote: »

I've always defended ball groups, but I'm starting to agree that they are posing a problem for the ongoing health of the game. I'm not one to blame players for responsibility that lies with the developers, such as lag and power creep.

However, the behavior of ball groups has turned more unsportsmanlike. Easily go into a keep, but don't take it. Not because you can't, but because it's more fun to grind the same 7-8 pugs over and over again. When people DO leave (because it is boring), you drop siege to bring us back in. If that doesn't work you take the keep and move on to repeat the cycle again and again. To each their own. However, I find it very disingenuous to defend this behavior at this point when it is pretty clear when this happens your competition gets bored, gives up, gets angry at the game, etc. I get that your ball group of 10 people (or whatever) is having a blast. But you are losing people to play against when you engage in this behavior excessively. Is it your fault the game works this way? No. Do you care to take any responsibility at all in your behavior, though?

I find it's a lot more fun for everyone to not see the same thing over and over again for hours.

When I lead my group I often don't take keeps because I can't, not necessarily because I don't want to. There's lots of different scenarios that prevent it. Like, by the time I go upstairs, clear the oils on top of the back flag and go back down, they're already back up. Or when I know there's several enemy groups around, I often can't afford separating my group into 2 to cap both flags at the same time, since often 20-30 players pour at a time from one of the sidedoors. Lastly if there's not much going on, taking the keep seems somewhat pointless, as generally we won't stay there much to defend it and leave if there's little action. Taking the keep at that point usually means just zerging down the few players left and wasting maybe 2 minutes of an enemy's group time that they would need to break 2 gates.

I could just camp inside the keep and wait when there's not much going on, eventually try to set up a ram on the inside when there's less pressure, and after capping kill the 4-5 guys who will inevitably show up to take the keep back, but that's not my cup of tea, and then people would call it unsportmanship for zerging.

If there's nothing left but 10-12 pugs inside it usually means the action is spent anyway and I usually leave and look for a different fight.

I notice the subject of "ballgroups don't help with the campaign objective" being a rather popular one. Generally i believe that while i'm keeping more than half of an enemy's faction busy on the opposite side of the map, my faction can actually take a breather. That often doesn't apply in practice as there are moments where I have 4-5 full enemy groups running at me and my faction still somehow loses map control which always leaves me wondering.

If anything, I do agree there's very little tools to fight against it implemented in-game.

Iriidius

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Fun Fact - That 3 stragglers die to also an unorganized full group or 3 organized players does not make fighting them with a full organized group fairer but even more unfair and worse as you choose to play unfair because you like not giving your opponents even a chance and not because you have to play unfair to win. It was just an example how unfair ballgroups play and not a fight that ballgroups are expected to loose.

No one wastes time to chase 1-2-3 people around unless you randomly start to attack them and try to dismount or something, in which case, deal with it.

Almost every player including ballgroups will chase solo players on sight unprovocated just because they are outnumbered and easy, riskfree kill usually without the solo player using a single offensive skill on them. Actually main reason not to play Cyrodiil solo is that you are already dead when you see a non 1vXable group outnumbering you and not have saving door.

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Fun fact #2 random groups are more common than ballgroups therefore more often seen and can be zerged by bigger groups or even killed by smaller groups. Also zerging is only one of the bad things ballgroups do.

Every decent group avoids playing in places where you have people from your own faction, as they just increase the chances of you getting bombed, VD'd / Plagued etc.

There are still ballgroups that zergsurf, but actually ballgroups are big enaugh to zerg on their own without a zerg and that is also what I mainly referred to as ballgroups zerging.

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Fun fact #3 Nobody asked for unorganized groups to consistantly beat organized groups, In a 12v12 any advantage will decide the fight because it is an even match numberwise. But it should be possible at all if the 12 unorganized surprise the ballgroup or are much better players.

Try doing a 2v2 / 3v3 unorganized vs organized. See how many times out of 20-30 you win.

If the unorganized are much better players or catch the organized offguard they will win. 2 good 1vXer will win against Mr&Mrs Average. If you 1v2 and a random nb bursts one of the 2 to low life than you finish him and 2v1 the second you win. They do not have enaugh groupbuffs and crossheal/shielding to prevent that.

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

And 30 unorganized should consistently beat a ballgroup rather than consistently getting beaten by it.

Do 3 randoms consistently beat 1 good X'er?

If they are 3 decent solo players and just random/ ungrouped not knowing each other rather than total noobs they consistently beat 1 1vXer.
But 36 decent solo/smallscale/PuG players still get constantly farmed for not beeing in an organised group with group buffs and heal/shield stacking.

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Fun Fact #4 Players cry about 1vXers as well. But 1vXers are just good solo players and do not get stat/% buffs unavailable for other playstiles.

Players cry about whatever beats them as it's easier to point fingers than learn how to deal with it.

Many ballgroups opponents would prefer to learn how to deal with ballgroups but there is no way to deal with them other than build your own ballgroup and become the evil you want to defeat or avoid them to save your own life and sacrifice your allies and objectives or spam javelin hoping to knockback one out of the keep which feels more like a meme than real playstile. Other advice how to deal with them like do not stack will not prevent you from getting consistently farmed.

evLRise wrote: »

Personally I dont even know what even made you think your opinion about ballgroups is valid in any way, as you literally got kicked from a group which only had started and had nothing but beginner players at that time. It's all OP and unfair since when you try it yourself pressing 1 button every 16s to keep a heal up proves to be too complicated of a task.

Than who has valid opinion about ballgroups? Only current ballgrouplers who profit from ballgroups? And if they do not deny that ballgroup gets carried by group effects you can still kick them making their opinion unvalid for „when you try it yourself pressing 1 button every 16s to keep a heal up proves to be too complicated of a task“.

Who has no valid opinion are the ballgrouplers pretending to be solo players while complaining they got killed by azureblight.

Nice how you get condescending and personally insulting because I do not defend ballgroups after playing in one and remember that I left but not why. Guess you cant imagine that anyone would leave a ballgroup for other reasons than beeing too bad.

I had second highest dmg and healing of all dds and did not get kicked for failing to press 1 button (echoing vigor) every 16 second (which is easier than keeping up resolving vigor with half uptime) but moved from regular to replacement after missing a few runs and not joining ingame guild.
Leader also wrote me I was moved because of absence rather than skill and could become regular member again when I can play regularly. However did not find

evLRise wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The issue with so called "Ball Groups" is that this play style has not received a single nerf since this game exists. I am serious here. Since 2014, there was not a single, not even a tiny one nerf / adjustment to the effectiveness of this method of playing the game. Other play-style got wrecked a couple of time & more, while BG have been only receiving indirect or even direct buffs.

Group size adjustments, Harmony Nerf, Inability to purge, Plague nerf, Proximity Deto nerf, Graveyard nerf, Dark Convergence nerf, Rush of Agony nerf, siege weapon buffs, skills that knockback / dispel shields / deny healing etc.

While it is not correct that ballgroups have never received a single nerf most of the nerfs you list were not directed at ballgroups but hit them accidently. Half of them are overpowered new sets that later got balanced and are still so strong that you use them

Group size adjustment was mainly nerf to PuGs as ballgroups rarely play more than 12 anyway, actually size reduction and making buffs work only on group members was ballgroup buff.

How is plaguebreak nerf a ballgroup nerf when Inability to purge caused by plaguebreak was also a ballgroup nerf? Plaguebreak nerf to uptime makes purging during downtime possible again while uptime is still enaugh for bombing.

ZoS stated Harmony and Graveyard nerf was because they were used by solo necromancers to bomb and should be used by groups only.

Siege weapons were buffed and nerfed multiple times over the years. Ballgroups rarely get hit by siege because they are running around keep faster than you can set siege and can outheal many hits while most selfhealing players die to 2 hits. Other playstiles get hit by siege (buffs) the same or more. Siege buff is barely a nerf to ballgroups.

Dark convergence/rush of agony were used by zergs to stun solo players or pull them out of keeps/into autokill. When they were introduced ballgroups also claimed they were ballgroup nerf but nerfing them is another ballgroup nerf?

Knockbacks already exist since 2014 and the one from dizzy swing was removed.
Dispel shield hurts mainly sorcerer and arcanist, ballgroups have so many they dont care.
Heal absorption is a joke and hurts solo players more as ballgroups can heal more than can be absorbed. Soloplayers take longer to outheal absorption.

Amottica

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

As someone who plays in a ball group on a weekly basis, I can tell you that we are FAR from unkillable. Yes, it is a challenge to kill us, but we die just like any other group, especially in a combined arms fight where we're getting sieged and pressed by one or more groups.

For those who complain about the strength of ballgroups, you are basically complaining about the same principals of high-end PVE. Stacking sets, buffs, and bonuses to maximize group potential, and teamwork to coordinate movements and focus high-priority targets. This is all ballgrouping is - highly coordinated groups working in unison together. Yes, it gives you an advantage, but not an insurmountable advantage that other people can't have by utilizing well-placed siege, terrain, and coordinated tactics and formations.

And yes, I even know how it is fighting against these ballgroups when you don't have a comped out group of your own. I spent the vast majority of yesterday fighting comped groups on red and yellow. Mostly undermanned at that. And we were still able to achieve our objectives. It was just a long, drawn out fight. But its doable if you know what you are doing.

I will also say this: cross-healing and HOT stacking is far less of an issue than you think it is. I've seen how it works out with a ball group without healers or without sufficient healing, and I've seen how it works with the healers. Without dedicated healers, life far more miserable, and everyone has to play far more defensive than they can with dedicated healers. If you are having a problem fighting these groups or taking them out, how about you tip your hat in acknowledge that it could just be chalked up to really good/skilled healer play on the other side?

Good points as my group, where we run small to mid-size, is highly effective against larger groups. We coordinate our builds before starting and are coordinated on voice comms the entire time. We enjoy tackling larger groups and taking them out.

We do realize that most of the groups are not very organized. A bunch of solo players in a pug group is still just a bunch of players that are still solo players.

Ofc, what we enjoy most is being in a battle with a similarly sized and similarly skilled group as the fight can take awhile and offers a challenge most groups in Cyrodiil cannot.

evLRise

Iriidius wrote: »

Almost every player including ballgroups will chase solo players on sight unprovocated just because they are outnumbered and easy, riskfree kill usually without the solo player using a single offensive skill on them. Actually main reason not to play Cyrodiil solo is that you are already dead when you see a non 1vXable group outnumbering you and not have saving door.

Just because you do it doesn't mean everyone else does.

Iriidius wrote: »

There are still ballgroups that zergsurf, but actually ballgroups are big enaugh to zerg on their own without a zerg and that is also what I mainly referred to as ballgroups zerging.

Ballgroups who zerg generally do so because they can't survive on their own and there's not much of a difference power level wise between them and a full group of 12 zergs. You can deal with those with a simple bomber.

Iriidius wrote: »

If the unorganized are much better players or catch the organized offguard they will win. 2 good 1vXer will win against Mr&Mrs Average. If you 1v2 and a random nb bursts one of the 2 to low life than you finish him and 2v1 the second you win. They do not have enaugh groupbuffs and crossheal/shielding to prevent that.

Like i said, do some 3v3 unorganized vs organized and see what happens. Send us some clips with you killing them.

Iriidius wrote: »

If they are 3 decent solo players and just random/ ungrouped not knowing each other rather than total noobs they consistently beat 1 1vXer.
But 36 decent solo/smallscale/PuG players still get constantly farmed for not beeing in an organised group with group buffs and heal/shield stacking.

Oh so you mean to say that only capable X'ers beat other X'ers if they're not heavily outnumbering? Similar how capable ballgroups beat other ballgroups? See how little by little we come to the skill issue conclusion?

Iriidius wrote: »

Many ballgroups opponents would prefer to learn how to deal with ballgroups but there is no way to deal with them other than build your own ballgroup and become the evil you want to defeat or avoid them to save your own life and sacrifice your allies and objectives or spam javelin hoping to knockback one out of the keep which feels more like a meme than real playstile. Other advice how to deal with them like do not stack will not prevent you from getting consistently farmed.

There are quite a few days to deal with ballgroups. But I won't spoil the magic for you.

Iriidius wrote: »

Who has no valid opinion are the ballgrouplers pretending to be solo players while complaining they got killed by azureblight.

Nice how you get condescending and personally insulting because I do not defend ballgroups after playing in one and remember that I left but not why. Guess you cant imagine that anyone would leave a ballgroup for other reasons than beeing too bad.

When you play a competitive PvP game, do you expect balance changes to be made around bronze/silver equivalent level players complaining on reddit? Or experienced players who understand how the game works?

Iriidius wrote: »

I had second highest dmg and healing of all dds and did not get kicked for failing to press 1 button (echoing vigor) every 16 second (which is easier than keeping up resolving vigor with half uptime) but moved from regular to replacement after missing a few runs and not joining ingame guild.
Leader also wrote me I was moved because of absence rather than skill and could become regular member again when I can play regularly. However did not find

If we assume stats like 50% heal uptimes, 400 out of 800 whirlwinds hitting absolutely no enemies ( a miss rate of 50% for AoEs is not that easy tbf ) and 30% of Deep Fissures going into thin air with 0 damage ( which is also hard, as it procs twice and has quite decent range ) which may or may not be your exact warden logs, would these stats certify that someone knows what they're talking about, or perhaps the complete opposite?

Iriidius wrote: »

While it is not correct that ballgroups have never received a single nerf most of the nerfs you list were not directed at ballgroups but hit them accidently. Half of them are overpowered new sets that later got balanced and are still so strong that you use them.

Group size adjustment was mainly nerf to PuGs as ballgroups rarely play more than 12 anyway, actually size reduction and making buffs work only on group members was ballgroup buff.

How is plaguebreak nerf a ballgroup nerf when Inability to purge caused by plaguebreak was also a ballgroup nerf? Plaguebreak nerf to uptime makes purging during downtime possible again while uptime is still enaugh for bombing.

ZoS stated Harmony and Graveyard nerf was because they were used by solo necromancers to bomb and should be used by groups only.

Siege weapons were buffed and nerfed multiple times over the years. Ballgroups rarely get hit by siege because they are running around keep faster than you can set siege and can outheal many hits while most selfhealing players die to 2 hits. Other playstiles get hit by siege (buffs) the same or more. Siege buff is barely a nerf to ballgroups.

Dark convergence/rush of agony were used by zergs to stun solo players or pull them out of keeps/into autokill. When they were introduced ballgroups also claimed they were ballgroup nerf but nerfing them is another ballgroup nerf?

Knockbacks already exist since 2014 and the one from dizzy swing was removed.
Dispel shield hurts mainly sorcerer and arcanist, ballgroups have so many they dont care.
Heal absorption is a joke and hurts solo players more as ballgroups can heal more than can be absorbed. Soloplayers take longer to outheal absorption.

I already stated why opinions on things you pretty much know nothing about are invalid and not worth considering, but just to enlighten you:

- Plaguebreak got nerfed so you can't apply it as quickly with AoEs. Inability to purge exists regardless of duration.
- Rush of agony was nerfed to give you reacting time, Which is now the same as Dark Convergence. If you can't block a pull fast enough, it's not like you can for example break free and dodge fast enough vs your average nightblade anyway, so you won't have fun in PvP either way.
- Scribing knockbacks are AoE with increased range, and were effective anyway even before.
- Most damage taken by ballgroups are from siege, which is visible by kindly asking any group in existance to show you a screenshot of their damage taken logs. This applies to almost 100% of raids, with the exception of organized GvG runs.

To answer your initial complain: it IS posible to kill an organized 12-man with an unorganized 12-man if there's a big skill difference. I'm completely confident I'd win a fight with 11 friends on solo builds vs an organized group if their performance is similar to what i posted above stats wise.

Lastly, Im not contesting what's fun or unfun for you. That's completely your thing. But there's a difference between stating that you feel a certain way about something, and claiming that it needs balance changes.

JonnytheKing

The_Meathead wrote: »

You know what you're doing.

You're sucking the joy out of the game for anyone and everyone that isn't you.

Zerg on Zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO, certainly in ESO PvP, and you don't care. To heck with that! It's all about you.

You're gonna manipulate the shield-stacking heal-stacking snowtreaders-wearing heck out of things to the very utmost, to run down those 3 stragglers trying to fight you at the ol' Lumber Mill, because dang it - that's how you win. Please don't try to say you exist to fight other Ballgroups, because if that time ever existed it's long past.

I mean, I get it. Winning feels good, right? But at SOME point, winning has a lot less to do with you and a lot more to do with advantages that should have been snipped by our Devs. For whatever reason, they're not gonna do it, so you're gonna take advantage. Don't get me wrong now, I love theory-crafting and working as a team, and I see that facet. But... c'mon, now. You know. You know it's too much, I've even seen a lot of you say it.

There's a difference between "legal" and "right," and ... well, you guys erred on the side of "it's allowed, so we'll do it."

Fair enough, but deep down inside you know you're killing the thing you love (or "like," whatever, I won't commit you to anything too grandiose.)

Cyrodiil is the best part of ESO, but you're willing to smother it. I just hope you admit to yourself that the diminishing participation, the lag, the unnecessary withering of something pretty awesome is at least in a big part on you.

its zos problem and should not be put on to the player base, PS ball groups have all ways been super strong, i mean thats the way it should be, now that been said zos needs to do something with heal stacking and some other things, but you know who is going to adjust faster and easyer to nerfs, the ball groups

Jaraal

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The issue with so called "Ball Groups" is that this play style has not received a single nerf since this game exists. I am serious here. Since 2014, there was not a single, not even a tiny one nerf / adjustment to the effectiveness of this method of playing the game.

Rather than modify the play style itself, ZOS has chosen to release multiple armor sets that clearly were designed to counter ball groups. The problem with this is, the organized groups have adopted the same sets and used them to become even stronger versus PUGs.

The other problem is that defile sets work very well against organized heal and shield stacking groups. However, virtually no one is going to give up potential damage in a DPS focused metric on the chance that they may encounter a ball group at some point during their limited play time. Nobody wants to run around in "Ball killer" builds waiting for the right opportunity, while they constantly get wrecked by solo glass cannons or 1vxers because they have no damage or heals of their own to fight back.

Wuduwasa13

BXR_Lonestar

Soraka wrote: »

I've always defended ball groups, but I'm starting to agree that they are posing a problem for the ongoing health of the game. I'm not one to blame players for responsibility that lies with the developers, such as lag and power creep.

However, the behavior of ball groups has turned more unsportsmanlike. Easily go into a keep, but don't take it. Not because you can't, but because it's more fun to grind the same 7-8 pugs over and over again. When people DO leave (because it is boring), you drop siege to bring us back in. If that doesn't work you take the keep and move on to repeat the cycle again and again. To each their own. However, I find it very disingenuous to defend this behavior at this point when it is pretty clear when this happens your competition gets bored, gives up, gets angry at the game, etc. I get that your ball group of 10 people (or whatever) is having a blast. But you are losing people to play against when you engage in this behavior excessively. Is it your fault the game works this way? No. Do you care to take any responsibility at all in your behavior, though?

I find it's a lot more fun for everyone to not see the same thing over and over again for hours.

Honestly, ball grouping is the counter to massive zerging. If people aren't ballgrouping to some degree, there is no counter to a 50 man zerg other than having your own 50 man zerg - and hope that you are on the defensive rather than the offensive so you have the seige advantage. Otherwise, there is just no answer to overwhelming numbers. I play in a campaign where my chosen alliance routinely goes up against the other alliances with at least a 1 bar advantage, and we would not even have a chance of being competitive without ballgrouping.

Ironically, as a 12 man ball group, we'll wipe 30 man + zergs, and then get accused of zerging. We're not zerging, we're just playing sweaty to give us a chance to win against overwhelming numbers.

Four_Fingers

Organized groups are not evil!
They are playing the game the way it was designed to be played, not how the Rambo wanta bees play.

YandereGirlfriend

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Soraka wrote: »

I've always defended ball groups, but I'm starting to agree that they are posing a problem for the ongoing health of the game. I'm not one to blame players for responsibility that lies with the developers, such as lag and power creep.

However, the behavior of ball groups has turned more unsportsmanlike. Easily go into a keep, but don't take it. Not because you can't, but because it's more fun to grind the same 7-8 pugs over and over again. When people DO leave (because it is boring), you drop siege to bring us back in. If that doesn't work you take the keep and move on to repeat the cycle again and again. To each their own. However, I find it very disingenuous to defend this behavior at this point when it is pretty clear when this happens your competition gets bored, gives up, gets angry at the game, etc. I get that your ball group of 10 people (or whatever) is having a blast. But you are losing people to play against when you engage in this behavior excessively. Is it your fault the game works this way? No. Do you care to take any responsibility at all in your behavior, though?

I find it's a lot more fun for everyone to not see the same thing over and over again for hours.

Honestly, ball grouping is the counter to massive zerging. If people aren't ballgrouping to some degree, there is no counter to a 50 man zerg other than having your own 50 man zerg - and hope that you are on the defensive rather than the offensive so you have the seige advantage. Otherwise, there is just no answer to overwhelming numbers. I play in a campaign where my chosen alliance routinely goes up against the other alliances with at least a 1 bar advantage, and we would not even have a chance of being competitive without ballgrouping.

Ironically, as a 12 man ball group, we'll wipe 30 man + zergs, and then get accused of zerging. We're not zerging, we're just playing sweaty to give us a chance to win against overwhelming numbers.

SO much this.

There is zero valor in zerging, particularly when it's empty calorie bullying and Xv1'ing against numerically disadvantaged sides. How many times have we seen the "brave" 50-stack rolling the same 8 defenders at every keep until they own their Tri-Keeps and Scrolls? It happens basically every night.

If you're on the sides with the big numbers you might not notice because it never happens to you but if you're on one of those chronically under-populated factions it is your everyday lived reality. In that instance, ballgroups are your last and best hope to avoid being gate-camped and Xv1'd simply trying to recapture a Tri-Keep resource.

xylena_lazarow

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is zero valor in zerging

Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.

YandereGirlfriend

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is zero valor in zerging

Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.

The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.

Sleepsin

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is zero valor in zerging

Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.

The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.

Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.

katanagirl1

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is zero valor in zerging

Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.

The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.

Zergs are not coordinated groups, the only thing they have going for them is sheer numbers.

BXR_Lonestar

Sleepsin wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is zero valor in zerging

Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.

The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.

Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.

Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.

So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.

And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....

BXR_Lonestar

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Soraka wrote: »

I've always defended ball groups, but I'm starting to agree that they are posing a problem for the ongoing health of the game. I'm not one to blame players for responsibility that lies with the developers, such as lag and power creep.

However, the behavior of ball groups has turned more unsportsmanlike. Easily go into a keep, but don't take it. Not because you can't, but because it's more fun to grind the same 7-8 pugs over and over again. When people DO leave (because it is boring), you drop siege to bring us back in. If that doesn't work you take the keep and move on to repeat the cycle again and again. To each their own. However, I find it very disingenuous to defend this behavior at this point when it is pretty clear when this happens your competition gets bored, gives up, gets angry at the game, etc. I get that your ball group of 10 people (or whatever) is having a blast. But you are losing people to play against when you engage in this behavior excessively. Is it your fault the game works this way? No. Do you care to take any responsibility at all in your behavior, though?

I find it's a lot more fun for everyone to not see the same thing over and over again for hours.

Honestly, ball grouping is the counter to massive zerging. If people aren't ballgrouping to some degree, there is no counter to a 50 man zerg other than having your own 50 man zerg - and hope that you are on the defensive rather than the offensive so you have the seige advantage. Otherwise, there is just no answer to overwhelming numbers. I play in a campaign where my chosen alliance routinely goes up against the other alliances with at least a 1 bar advantage, and we would not even have a chance of being competitive without ballgrouping.

Ironically, as a 12 man ball group, we'll wipe 30 man + zergs, and then get accused of zerging. We're not zerging, we're just playing sweaty to give us a chance to win against overwhelming numbers.

SO much this.

There is zero valor in zerging, particularly when it's empty calorie bullying and Xv1'ing against numerically disadvantaged sides. How many times have we seen the "brave" 50-stack rolling the same 8 defenders at every keep until they own their Tri-Keeps and Scrolls? It happens basically every night.

If you're on the sides with the big numbers you might not notice because it never happens to you but if you're on one of those chronically under-populated factions it is your everyday lived reality. In that instance, ballgroups are your last and best hope to avoid being gate-camped and Xv1'd simply trying to recapture a Tri-Keep resource.

Its all sour grapes IMO because people show up to a keep thinking "look at our numbers, how can we lose?" and then they get destroyed and they're left fuming about it. At this point, I'm at a place where I just laugh and say "cry more please."

xylena_lazarow

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

At this point, I'm at a place where I just laugh and say "cry more please."

Here's another analogy. The ball group is the high school varsity football team. The zerg is a random freshmen 3rd period gym class with 20 kids and half of them haven't reached puberty yet. Who are you putting your money on?

The_Meathead

Analogies aside, does anyone truly disagree that the advantages for stacking are too much atm?

That with the current pop caps as low as they are, the 12 man group who utilizes those advantages is just tremendously strong even further because of lack of frequent opposition by numbers?

I have zero problems with Ball Groups existing as the penultimate level of planning, grouping, and organization so long as there's a reasonable limitation to what the mechanics allow. Right now, it just feels like it's at a VERY high point at the same time as a lot of things that threaten those same groups have been limited or nerfed into uselessness. That's a bad combo.

Add in that Ball Groups rarely "play the same game" as everyone else, often ignoring objectives entirely or using them as bait with Flags or Scrolls simply to try to lure more prey, and it becomes doubly frustrating for everyone else. Ballgroups also seem tremendously disinterested in fighting each other these days, which makes it all the worse. (Stuff like Spawn-camping is a whole different topic.)

I think Ballgroup players know this, shrug at it, and do their thing - and that's fair, because it's not on them to limit themselves for other players' enjoyment and it's their business how they play.

Defending the mechanics that are SO favorable or calling for nerfs on things that actually offer a counter or threat to Ballgroups, however? Not so good, because the long-term effects on Cyrodiil of this sort of imbalance and "un-fun" for a larger % of players are already visible and will only get worse in terms of population and participation.

There needs to be a really unified and clear effort to trim down how ridiculously powerful stacking is, that leaves it as an option when done just right by the truly talented but allows for more counter by larger sized groups of players not doing the exact same thing.

If some Ballgroup players are willing to be tremendously honest and transparent in that effort at balance even at a loss of some of their own dominance, and help swing the pendulum back a little, we'd all be much better off. That's probably asking a lot, but if ZOS ever finally decides to handle this issue it might also save it from being the typical drastic OVER-nerf that we're all used to seeing.

Sleepsin

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is zero valor in zerging

Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.

The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.

Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.

Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.

So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.

And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....

You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..