Oh, Ballgroups

Aldoss

To the ballgroupers here: I'm not seeing anyone here calling for a power change where disorganized players are allowed to win against a smaller group of organized players. It's amazing to me that people voicing complaints about the unique facets that give ballgrouping behavior the power it has always somehow gets mistranslated into, "these people want to nerf me because I coordinate sets with my friends".

This isn't the case.

Ballgroups are nearly invincible. I also love comments like this:

evLRise wrote: »

There are quite a few days to deal with ballgroups. But I won't spoil the magic for you.

Statements like this get reiterated in almost every thread asking ZOS to do something about ballgrouping behavior. It's comically convenient. These ballgroupers will never actually answer the question because they know the truth that there is next to nothing, outside of their own control, that might actually allow a force of 30 PUGs to put pressure on them. Ballgroups make bad decisions all the time that get them killed, but when the raid lead doesn't make a dumb call, well, yeah, players need to just walk away because there is literally nothing they can do.

Cross-healing and cross-shielding are absurdly strong at the moment. The deletion of AB from the PvP scene has only contributed to that being even stronger now.

There are some great ideas being shared in various PvP threads suggesting ways that ZOS might choose to reign in the power of 12x vigors, regens, or shields without affecting the PvE balance of the game. I sincerely hope that ZOS listens to it and chooses to act on it.

Coordinated, optimized groups of 12 should always be the strongest fighting force in the PvP game. However, that doesn't mean that they deserve to be nigh unkillable.

Iriidius

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Almost every player including ballgroups will chase solo players on sight unprovocated just because they are outnumbered and easy, riskfree kill usually without the solo player using a single offensive skill on them. Actually main reason not to play Cyrodiil solo is that you are already dead when you see a non 1vXable group outnumbering you and not have saving door.

Just because you do it doesn't mean everyone else does.

I dont attack outnumbered players on sight Xv1, but almost every player I see in Cyrodiil/IC/BG does it. But interesting that disagreeing with you and ballgroups automatically makes people toxic zerglings.

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

There are still ballgroups that zergsurf, but actually ballgroups are big enaugh to zerg on their own without a zerg and that is also what I mainly referred to as ballgroups zerging.

Ballgroups who zerg generally do so because they can't survive on their own and there's not much of a difference power level wise between them and a full group of 12 zergs. You can deal with those with a simple bomber.

I already said that a ballgroup can also zerg people down without a zerg because zerging as a verb means outnumbering your opponents no matter if done by an actual (disorganized) zerg or another kind of groups but you ignored that.
12 players is more than enaugh to overwhelm smaller groups or solo players with numbers.
Even when a ballgroup is zergsurfing an actual zerg you usually cant deal with those with a bomber because they get crosshealed by ballgroup and will heal to full midbomb.

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

If the unorganized are much better players or catch the organized offguard they will win. 2 good 1vXer will win against Mr&Mrs Average. If you 1v2 and a random nb bursts one of the 2 to low life than you finish him and 2v1 the second you win. They do not have enaugh groupbuffs and crossheal/shielding to prevent that.

Like i said, do some 3v3 unorganized vs organized and see what happens. Send us some clips with you killing them.

Already 2v2ed or 3v3ed some organized duos/trios together with randoms,
organisation does not give such a big advantage in 2v2/3v3 when crossheals, shields and buffs you can share are very limited compared to ballgroup and you can time your attacks only between 2/3 people which is also possible without voicechat.

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

If they are 3 decent solo players and just random/ ungrouped not knowing each other rather than total noobs they consistently beat 1 1vXer.
But 36 decent solo/smallscale/PuG players still get constantly farmed for not beeing in an organised group with group buffs and heal/shield stacking.

Oh so you mean to say that only capable X'ers beat other X'ers if they're not heavily outnumbering? Similar how capable ballgroups beat other ballgroups? See how little by little we come to the skill issue conclusion?

I did say 3 decent solo players not 3 capable/good 1vXers. Could also be 3 decent PuGs/smallscalers but decent players usually do not play in PuGs and 3 PuGs for some people are not 3 randoms nor are 3 smallscalers. But should not be 3 uncompetitive players who usually (get chosen by 1vXers to) get 1vXed because they do not know how to deal dmg/heal/block and get killed by predictable burst combo + extra attacks like
2 dizzy+subassault+dawnbreaker+executioner without defending themself and therefore just bad players.
But it is unlikely that 36 players (which is half a faction) fighting a ballgroup are all bad players and there are no decent ones. 36 decent solo players will still loose to a ballgroup because they do not have group builds.

If a 1vXer wins a 1v3 it is because he is much better than the players he fights.
If a ballgroup wins a 12v36 it is because they have group buffs making every of the 12 stronger than an emperor.

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Many ballgroups opponents would prefer to learn how to deal with ballgroups but there is no way to deal with them other than build your own ballgroup and become the evil you want to defeat or avoid them to save your own life and sacrifice your allies and objectives or spam javelin hoping to knockback one out of the keep which feels more like a meme than real playstile. Other advice how to deal with them like do not stack will not prevent you from getting consistently farmed.

There are quite a few days to deal with ballgroups. But I won't spoil the magic for you.

Probably because most of them are either the ones I already listed or do not work.

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Who has no valid opinion are the ballgrouplers pretending to be solo players while complaining they got killed by azureblight.

Nice how you get condescending and personally insulting because I do not defend ballgroups after playing in one and remember that I left but not why. Guess you cant imagine that anyone would leave a ballgroup for other reasons than beeing too bad.

When you play a competitive PvP game, do you expect balance changes to be made around bronze/silver equivalent level players complaining on reddit? Or experienced players who understand how the game works?

When the experienced players who understand how the game works lie and spread misinformation to protect the carries they (ab)use and get every counter nerfed like ballgrouplers who falsely claimed they get killed by azurebligh while playing solo when they actually played in ballgroup I expect the game to not be balanced around these players.

But there are a lot of experienced player who understand how the game works and that ballgroups are overperforming and opposing them.
But in your opinion everyone opposing ballgroups is automatically bad player to unskilled to play in one.

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

I had second highest dmg and healing of all dds and did not get kicked for failing to press 1 button (echoing vigor) every 16 second (which is easier than keeping up resolving vigor with half uptime) but moved from regular to replacement after missing a few runs and not joining ingame guild.
Leader also wrote me I was moved because of absence rather than skill and could become regular member again when I can play regularly. However did not find time to play with ballgroup again.

If we assume stats like 50% heal uptimes, 400 out of 800 whirlwinds hitting absolutely no enemies ( a miss rate of 50% for AoEs is not that easy tbf ) and 30% of Deep Fissures going into thin air with 0 damage ( which is also hard, as it procs twice and has quite decent range ) which may or may not be your exact warden logs, would these stats certify that someone knows what they're talking about, or perhaps the complete opposite?

So you try to prove your made-up categorizarion of me as a skillless zergling who can only Xv1 and is too stupid to play in a ballgroup with made-up numbers even admitting yourself that you do not know the real numbers.
It is hard to imagine that you still remember my skill niveau after 1.5 years althought you only joined the discord 2 weeks before I left and I missed most of the raids during that time raiding maybe once with you.

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

While it is not correct that ballgroups have never received a single nerf most of the nerfs you list were not directed at ballgroups but hit them accidently. Half of them are overpowered new sets that later got balanced and are still so strong that you use them.

Group size adjustment was mainly nerf to PuGs as ballgroups rarely play more than 12 anyway, actually size reduction and making buffs work only on group members was ballgroup buff.

How is plaguebreak nerf a ballgroup nerf when Inability to purge caused by plaguebreak was also a ballgroup nerf? Plaguebreak nerf to uptime makes purging during downtime possible again while uptime is still enaugh for bombing.

ZoS stated Harmony and Graveyard nerf was because they were used by solo necromancers to bomb and should be used by groups only.

Siege weapons were buffed and nerfed multiple times over the years. Ballgroups rarely get hit by siege because they are running around keep faster than you can set siege and can outheal many hits while most selfhealing players die to 2 hits. Other playstiles get hit by siege (buffs) the same or more. Siege buff is barely a nerf to ballgroups.

Dark convergence/rush of agony were used by zergs to stun solo players or pull them out of keeps/into autokill. When they were introduced ballgroups also claimed they were ballgroup nerf but nerfing them is another ballgroup nerf?

Knockbacks already exist since 2014 and the one from dizzy swing was removed.
Dispel shield hurts mainly sorcerer and arcanist, ballgroups have so many they dont care.
Heal absorption is a joke and hurts solo players more as ballgroups can heal more than can be absorbed. Soloplayers take longer to outheal absorption.

I already stated why opinions on things you pretty much know nothing about are invalid and not worth considering, but just to enlighten you:

- Plaguebreak got nerfed so you can't apply it as quickly with AoEs. Inability to purge exists regardless of duration.
- Rush of agony was nerfed to give you reacting time, Which is now the same as Dark Convergence. If you can't block a pull fast enough, it's not like you can for example break free and dodge fast enough vs your average nightblade anyway, so you won't have fun in PvP either way.
- Scribing knockbacks are AoE with increased range, and were effective anyway even before.
- Most damage taken by ballgroups are from siege, which is visible by kindly asking any group in existance to show you a screenshot of their damage taken logs. This applies to almost 100% of raids, with the exception of organized GvG runs.

To answer your initial complain: it IS posible to kill an organized 12-man with an unorganized 12-man if there's a big skill difference. I'm completely confident I'd win a fight with 11 friends on solo builds vs an organized group if their performance is similar to what i posted above stats wise.

Plaguebreak was never applied faster except during 1 PTS week where it was to all players hit with 1 attack but that was never on life.
Rush of agony has crazy range pulling people standing far away and when you block you are too slow to get out of area either getting burstet dead while blocking or fear stunned.
Even when ballgroups get most dmg from siege because other playstiles are even more ineffektive against them a buff to siege is not a specific but a very indirekt nerf to ballgroups.

evLRise wrote: »

Lastly, Im not contesting what's fun or unfun for you. That's completely your thing. But there's a difference between stating that you feel a certain way about something, and claiming that it needs balance changes.

So you think players disapproving ballgroups are acting wrong when asking for balance changes to ballgroups althought ballgroups asked for balance changes to azureblight despite azureblight beeing much more niche and counterable and less used and supressing to ballgroups than ballgroups to all other playstiles with some ballgrouplers pretending to be solo players asking for balance changes to azureblight for soloplay when actually soloplayers were against azureblight nerf as it barely damages them.


Sure you can disagree with me but you insult me as an inept Xv1er unable to use a ballgroup build and denying the validity of my opinion without real knowledge of my skill niveau to discredit me and my opinion and punish me for disagreeing.

Elendir2am

Jaraal wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The issue with so called "Ball Groups" is that this play style has not received a single nerf since this game exists. I am serious here. Since 2014, there was not a single, not even a tiny one nerf / adjustment to the effectiveness of this method of playing the game.

Rather than modify the play style itself, ZOS has chosen to release multiple armor sets that clearly were designed to counter ball groups. The problem with this is, the organized groups have adopted the same sets and used them to become even stronger versus PUGs.

The other problem is that defile sets work very well against organized heal and shield stacking groups. However, virtually no one is going to give up potential damage in a DPS focused metric on the chance that they may encounter a ball group at some point during their limited play time. Nobody wants to run around in "Ball killer" builds waiting for the right opportunity, while they constantly get wrecked by solo glass cannons or 1vxers because they have no damage or heals of their own to fight back.

This is not true at all. Some of us had prepared antiball builds. Being it "defile" base, ultidumb base, harmony base, bomb base, DoT base.... Problem is, that every build with results got nerfed imidietly.

Iriidius

JonnytheKing wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

You know what you're doing.

You're sucking the joy out of the game for anyone and everyone that isn't you.

Zerg on Zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO, certainly in ESO PvP, and you don't care. To heck with that! It's all about you.

You're gonna manipulate the shield-stacking heal-stacking snowtreaders-wearing heck out of things to the very utmost, to run down those 3 stragglers trying to fight you at the ol' Lumber Mill, because dang it - that's how you win. Please don't try to say you exist to fight other Ballgroups, because if that time ever existed it's long past.

I mean, I get it. Winning feels good, right? But at SOME point, winning has a lot less to do with you and a lot more to do with advantages that should have been snipped by our Devs. For whatever reason, they're not gonna do it, so you're gonna take advantage. Don't get me wrong now, I love theory-crafting and working as a team, and I see that facet. But... c'mon, now. You know. You know it's too much, I've even seen a lot of you say it.

There's a difference between "legal" and "right," and ... well, you guys erred on the side of "it's allowed, so we'll do it."

Fair enough, but deep down inside you know you're killing the thing you love (or "like," whatever, I won't commit you to anything too grandiose.)

Cyrodiil is the best part of ESO, but you're willing to smother it. I just hope you admit to yourself that the diminishing participation, the lag, the unnecessary withering of something pretty awesome is at least in a big part on you.

its zos problem and should not be put on to the player base, PS ball groups have all ways been super strong, i mean thats the way it should be, now that been said zos needs to do something with heal stacking and some other things, but you know who is going to adjust faster and easyer to nerfs, the ball groups

But ZoS does nothing against heal stacking and ballgroups bitterly defend all the tools they get carried by while denying that they matter at all pretending it is all just skill and arrogantly mocking, insulting, blaming and condemning the players that disapprove them telling to learn to play, avoid them or build their own ballgroup.
But when they get only slightly countered by a tool like azureblight/Snake in the stars they ask for nerf themselve with some of them pretending to be solo player/smallscaler/PuGs to make ZoS believe those playstiles approve the nerfs requested by ballgroups too and disapprove nerfs to ballgroup when they do not.
Ballgroups spread misinformation all the time. And they use every unfair advantage as much as they can. They are definitely not innocent.

The_Meathead

Sleepsin wrote: »

You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..

How awesome would it be if when an opposing faction Ballgroup was spotted, Zone chat lit up with calls of "BG at BRK!!" or "(Name of Ballgroup) at Glade LM, headed South!" like infantrymen shouting "TAAAAANK!" and their own faction's BGs rushed to get there and attack?

If Ballgroups beelined it for one another like a powerful part of the whole, deadset on destroying their rivals, I doubt they'd be anything but adored. I know I'd openly cheer for them, certainly.

Regretfully, that's not the case at all, and most of them operate in a pretty parasitic manner that detracts from the larger picture entirely. I am truly dubious of the occasional claims that BGs seek battle with one another on any sort of regular basis these days, and I understand why... since fighting them is pretty miserable for all involved.

YandereGirlfriend

The_Meathead wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..

How awesome would it be if when an opposing faction Ballgroup was spotted, Zone chat lit up with calls of "BG at BRK!!" or "(Name of Ballgroup) at Glade LM, headed South!" like infantrymen shouting "TAAAAANK!" and their own faction's BGs rushed to get there and attack?

If Ballgroups beelined it for one another like a powerful part of the whole, deadset on destroying their rivals, I doubt they'd be anything but adored. I know I'd openly cheer for them, certainly.

Regretfully, that's not the case at all, and most of them operate in a pretty parasitic manner that detracts from the larger picture entirely. I am truly dubious of the occasional claims that BGs seek battle with one another on any sort of regular basis these days, and I understand why... since fighting them is pretty miserable for all involved.

I don't know what server you play on but my group has had just about nothing BUT group vs. group for the last several weeks, much to my own annoyance (as I much prefer achieving map objectives).

You really underestimate the amount of rivalry and competition between groups, even between groups on the same factions. Like anything else, there is a hierarchy of who is better than whom and that hierarchy is dictated by who wins in those fights. Some groups hate each other and will beeline their rivals on-sight, sweating them down to the last player so that they can't rez. In other words, groups have distinct personalities, largely governed by the behavior of their crown and of the sorts of players that the group attracts. Some are chill. Some are decidedly un-chill. I think that the un-chill groups tend to give everyone else a bad name.

Like, I can only really speak for my own group but we are basically always trying to do something that will help our faction. We don't farm Scrolls, we don't spawn-camp, we don't sweat-down solos or groups smaller than ourselves (unless they attack first...). If there is an enemy group farming PUGs inside of one of our keeps, we will try to kill them (however, we're FAR from the top group so sometimes we simply get clapped in the process), if there is a pivotal keep to try to capture or defend, we will try to be there, helping.

These threads are so often the same, with the "ballgroups this" and "ballgroups that" and I am sitting here like, "Neither my group nor any other groups that I've either played in or been friends with do literally any of those things..." It begins to feel like a giant straw-man argument, blaming the entire community for the actions of a few bad actors and their anecdotal tales.

I can understand if it all looks the same from the outside but every group really is different, just like individual people and players.

The_Meathead

I'm glad to hear it, if that's the case.

From the outside it looks VERY different indeed. Most the times a Ballgroup even from my own faction shows up, it's a wash because they're gonna be doing their own thing and only accidentally contribute to faction goals. They absolutely don't seem to charge other Ballgroups, minus the tiniest bit of accidental overlap as they're running around a Keep sucking up bodies.

Your version is much more appealing, but I'm on GH NA-PC and play a very good amount I honestly haven't seen it first-hand.

I don't doubt your veracity, and perspective is everything of course. I've just seen so many BGs actively avoid even remotely touching each other, time and again, it's hard to think what you're describing is the norm these days.

Iriidius

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Organized groups are not evil!
They are playing the game the way it was designed to be played, not how the Rambo wanta bees play.

Ballgroups do not play the game like it was intended to be played but how 12 rambos or the expendables on steroids or rather the 12 headed dragon who eats 12 rambos for breakfast and 30 expendables for lunch and dinner.

The cinematic/trailer of ESO does not show anything that looks like a ballgroup, only zerg v zerg fights. The Elder Scrolls single player RPGs and ESO storyline make you some kind of Rambo or rather dragonborn so playing like one is normal.

Ballgroup is not a playstile to start with as you need to play regularely and know 11 players willing to play together regularely at the same time so you have to play PvP solo first to find out if the PvP is worth playing regularly and meet 11 players.

But aren’t you the one who doesnt know the difference between a group and a ballgroup.

Turtle_Bot

Aldoss wrote: »

To the ballgroupers here: I'm not seeing anyone here calling for a power change where disorganized players are allowed to win against a smaller group of organized players. It's amazing to me that people voicing complaints about the unique facets that give ballgrouping behavior the power it has always somehow gets mistranslated into, "these people want to nerf me because I coordinate sets with my friends".

This isn't the case.

Ballgroups are nearly invincible. I also love comments like this:

evLRise wrote: »

There are quite a few days to deal with ballgroups. But I won't spoil the magic for you.

Statements like this get reiterated in almost every thread asking ZOS to do something about ballgrouping behavior. It's comically convenient. These ballgroupers will never actually answer the question because they know the truth that there is next to nothing, outside of their own control, that might actually allow a force of 30 PUGs to put pressure on them. Ballgroups make bad decisions all the time that get them killed, but when the raid lead doesn't make a dumb call, well, yeah, players need to just walk away because there is literally nothing they can do.

Cross-healing and cross-shielding are absurdly strong at the moment. The deletion of AB from the PvP scene has only contributed to that being even stronger now.

The problem is people don't like giving up their crutch/carry and some will unfortunately go to some pretty extreme/toxic levels to try and defend their crutch/carry, even if it's just a small adjustment being proposed.

We have seen it countless times, over and over and over.

• Heal/shield stacking
• cloak
• Movement speed (not just streak, but passive/easy movement speed like celerity, swift, medium armor, RaT, etc.)
• pull sets
• proc sets
• mitigation (including blocking, old mist form, etc)
• Original Oakensoul (both pts original and live original)

The list goes on...

It unfortunately results in some rather large and often overdone adjustments being required because it got that bad (see recent cloak nerf and before that the hardened ward buff being prime examples of players not wanting small balance changes to their cloak and baseline movement speed crutches respectively which resulted in some massive balance changes that should have never been needed).

I can (maybe) see the same thing happen with the current ball group crutches too, especially if they follow what NB players did, calling for literally every single counter to them to be deleted from the game.

Heal/shield stacking completely deleted, cannot heal anyone but yourself, all heals have cast times and are interruptible, pull sets no longer work at all, proc sets are all made completely useless, all speed buffs/snowtreaders get deleted, etc, etc. All drastic changes that no-one wants to see happen, especially if they can be avoided if players learn to accept smaller changes now to hone in on the right balance, instead of defending their crutch at all costs until it eventually forces the ZOS nerf hammer on them like NBs did with cloak.

Aldoss wrote: »

There are some great ideas being shared in various PvP threads suggesting ways that ZOS might choose to reign in the power of 12x vigors, regens, or shields without affecting the PvE balance of the game. I sincerely hope that ZOS listens to it and chooses to act on it.

Coordinated, optimized groups of 12 should always be the strongest fighting force in the PvP game. However, that doesn't mean that they deserve to be nigh unkillable.

I'd like to shout out this part specifically. There have been some very good suggestions made across multiple threads for a multitude of different ways to address this issue, hopefully ZOS listens to them. They are clearly very good ideas that will clearly have the desired outcome, because if they weren't, there would not have been such a massive attempt at trying to discredit/defend against them by those exploiting the current state of ball groups/group mechanics.

Turtle_Bot

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..

How awesome would it be if when an opposing faction Ballgroup was spotted, Zone chat lit up with calls of "BG at BRK!!" or "(Name of Ballgroup) at Glade LM, headed South!" like infantrymen shouting "TAAAAANK!" and their own faction's BGs rushed to get there and attack?

If Ballgroups beelined it for one another like a powerful part of the whole, deadset on destroying their rivals, I doubt they'd be anything but adored. I know I'd openly cheer for them, certainly.

Regretfully, that's not the case at all, and most of them operate in a pretty parasitic manner that detracts from the larger picture entirely. I am truly dubious of the occasional claims that BGs seek battle with one another on any sort of regular basis these days, and I understand why... since fighting them is pretty miserable for all involved.

I don't know what server you play on but my group has had just about nothing BUT group vs. group for the last several weeks, much to my own annoyance (as I much prefer achieving map objectives).

You really underestimate the amount of rivalry and competition between groups, even between groups on the same factions. Like anything else, there is a hierarchy of who is better than whom and that hierarchy is dictated by who wins in those fights. Some groups hate each other and will beeline their rivals on-sight, sweating them down to the last player so that they can't rez. In other words, groups have distinct personalities, largely governed by the behavior of their crown and of the sorts of players that the group attracts. Some are chill. Some are decidedly un-chill. I think that the un-chill groups tend to give everyone else a bad name.

Like, I can only really speak for my own group but we are basically always trying to do something that will help our faction. We don't farm Scrolls, we don't spawn-camp, we don't sweat-down solos or groups smaller than ourselves (unless they attack first...). If there is an enemy group farming PUGs inside of one of our keeps, we will try to kill them (however, we're FAR from the top group so sometimes we simply get clapped in the process), if there is a pivotal keep to try to capture or defend, we will try to be there, helping.

These threads are so often the same, with the "ballgroups this" and "ballgroups that" and I am sitting here like, "Neither my group nor any other groups that I've either played in or been friends with do literally any of those things..." It begins to feel like a giant straw-man argument, blaming the entire community for the actions of a few bad actors and their anecdotal tales.

I can understand if it all looks the same from the outside but every group really is different, just like individual people and players.

Unfortunately groups with your mentality are very much disappearing from the game (I know because I used to play in one a long time ago and barely see maybe 1 or 2 other players from those days log in maybe once every 2-3 days anymore), especially on PC EU.

Sure there are a few groups that will fight other groups (the leader of the main one I know of last logged in like 5 months ago though) and there are some that like to brag about winning against other ball groups, but over the past few years there has been a growing number of ball groups that will actively avoid other ball groups and only go after the "soft targets", PUGs, solos, mid-tier small scales, etc.
It has gotten to the extent that just watching it happening (even when its a ball group on my own faction), it is like watching 2 ball groups working and coordinating together to farm the zerg of the third faction from 2 sides completely ignoring any attempt to try and force the 2 ball groups to engage each other.

I understand from your perspective how it feels like a straw man, or blaming the entire community for the actions of a few, but when there is a growing majority within that wider community (still within the ball group community, but outside your specific group/friends) that are the bad apples, something needs changing and the only ones who can actually enforce any real change are ZOS via balance adjustments.

Joy_Division

I actually agree with just about everything @Iriidius is saying, that ZOS has very much buffed organized groups and has had a habit of removing any counter to them that has been mildly effective.

That is undeniably the truth. Do any of you remember what the skill Regeneration used to do? It was a crappy HoT that went to 1 other player. Then ZOS decided to buff it so its heals for a larger amount and goes to 3 players. Who does this benefit? Not the solo player and only marginally PuGs (I might have one random Radiating on me if I am solo). It benefits organized groups.

This is emblematic of the pattern ZOS has balanced the game for at least the past 5 years. Look it up yourself. Here let me help with another example: Blessing of Restoration, here have been the various buffs: increased healing done by 21%, added Minor Resolve and Minor Ward, increased healing by 13%, increased the healing by 48.5% Insane. AoE healing/shielding options have become much easier, more accessible, and more potent. Nevermind that we're running around with 40K health whereas we once had 22K health.

Heals have gone up, up, up. Guess where our damage has gone? Down, down, down.

Some examples:

Classic Dark Flare: 1.1 second cast time, bonus in weapon and spell power to next attack, let’s say 1000 damage for simplicity’s sake.
New Dark Flare: 0.8 second cast time, removed all PvP functionality for bonus damage on next attack, 548 damage.

Eye of the Storm: Damage decreased by 25%, Area of effect reduced from 10 meters to 8 meters

Searing Strike: Cost increase by 120%, damage decreased per tick by 43%

This is fact. When we don;t have any damage and organized groups have so much more access to survivability, it makes them way too strong. That's not a problem caused by PuGs not knowing what they are doing or experienced players not using proper tactics or the failure of the PvP community to figure out the secret to killing organized groups. The strength of organized groups is the result of compounding objectively bad balance decisions by ZOS. For the past 8 years, they have kept nerfing out damage while buffing our healing. It seems logical that ZOS favors organized groups. It's a reasonable way to explain a 8 years of combat development.

It especially seems like that is the case with the Azureblight nerf. People have complained about the excessive healing/shielding/survivability for years and years. ZOS: crickets. Then suddenly some organized group players started complaining about Azureblight. Despite an indisputable majority of PvP players who support the set, ZOS quickly just deleted the set from PvP on a surprise week 2 PTS update. Why did those group players get such quick consideration for their request?!? It must have been absolutely infuriating. They complain. They get catered to, Everyone else complains for longer. Nothing..

I know all of this because I have spent time from 2014-2021 running in organized groups. For a few months in 2023 I again ran in a competitive group. This offensive/defense and organized group/PuG balance was never good, but it was at least once tolerable/playable. Now it is absolutely broken. It's perfectly obvious. When every week a new thread pops up complaining about "ball groups," it's not a conspiracy of bad players who don't have a clue how cyrodiil combat works.

So I get it. I really do. I wish people had better options. Or at least, an option.

But what I don;t think is fair is spitting these accusations on all the players who just occasionally want to play with their friends for ten years and not get rolled over whenever we also have to face an organized group. We have to fight them too. Sorry, I'm not logging on my Templar and give the old college try to kill them with my Solar Barrage, Reflective Light, Luminous Shards, and my powerful new buff, a Taunt (!), like ZOS wants me too.

I don't log onto a low populations servers and spawn camp a keep. Every guild I have played with since 2014 - this is all three factions - has always played on the default "zerg" server and we have always played during prime time. If the population count is low or the server is not competitive, we log off because it's boring af to do what so many people accuse us doing: farming PuGs who are incapable of fighting back.

I'm not denying that it happens. I don't do it. Most of the people I play with have jobs and families, and so are incapable of logging on at 2:00 PM EST on a Tuesday or 3:30 AM EST on a Wednesday to terrorize an uncompetitive server.

I know currently there is a AD blob of players on PC/NA who "nightcap". That's not me or anyone I play with consistently. I originally was on EP and we moved to AD to get away from them and fight them. I agree they groups are being helped too much by the bad mechanics described above. Only ZOS can help you there. Since so many people believe in faction locks, we can't log onto DC. Again, sorry, there isn't anything I can do about that..

The issue here is the poor mechanics of the game. I do wish some organized players would be more honest and objective when these issues come up. It's fair to criticize their views when specific people make those posts. But even when some organized group players try to do the things that solo players want, you're still going to run into these problems because some people, regardless of how they play, are insensitive to the plight of others and apparently have nothing else better to do with their time than farm AP on non-competitive servers. We are dealing with personality issues. Effective combat reform is going to be the best solution.

gronoxvx

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The issue with so called "Ball Groups" is that this play style has not received a single nerf since this game exists. I am serious here. Since 2014, there was not a single, not even a tiny one nerf / adjustment to the effectiveness of this method of playing the game. Other play-style got wrecked a couple of time & more, while BG have been only receiving indirect or even direct buffs.

There is a reason why this playstyle dominates. It is almost totally "idiot-proof" and gives insane effort - to - result ratio. It basically converts total noobs into immortal gods. Yes, there are different ball groups with different skill level, and you can clearly see that, but even the "bad ones" are very often impossible to beat, not even mentioning a bit more skilled ones (if you play for a while, then you can learn to recognise it).

Seeing how this play-style (as I mentioned) has not received a single nerf, ever, chances are - it will never get a proper adjustment it 101% deserves, as it seems it gets a preferential treatment from Devs (Their PvP target audience ?!)

For as long as this play style wont be properly adjusted, PvP in this game will remain dead.

Theres actually been a few nerfs over the years. We just find a way around it. ill be honest, no one theory-crafts like ball groups. We know the game in a different way to the devs and can find ways to min-max like crazy because of it.

I do love when these threads pop up though.

baguette_poolish

JonnytheKing wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

You know what you're doing.

You're sucking the joy out of the game for anyone and everyone that isn't you.

Zerg on Zerg is probably the most fun there is to have in ESO, certainly in ESO PvP, and you don't care. To heck with that! It's all about you.

You're gonna manipulate the shield-stacking heal-stacking snowtreaders-wearing heck out of things to the very utmost, to run down those 3 stragglers trying to fight you at the ol' Lumber Mill, because dang it - that's how you win. Please don't try to say you exist to fight other Ballgroups, because if that time ever existed it's long past.

I mean, I get it. Winning feels good, right? But at SOME point, winning has a lot less to do with you and a lot more to do with advantages that should have been snipped by our Devs. For whatever reason, they're not gonna do it, so you're gonna take advantage. Don't get me wrong now, I love theory-crafting and working as a team, and I see that facet. But... c'mon, now. You know. You know it's too much, I've even seen a lot of you say it.

There's a difference between "legal" and "right," and ... well, you guys erred on the side of "it's allowed, so we'll do it."

Fair enough, but deep down inside you know you're killing the thing you love (or "like," whatever, I won't commit you to anything too grandiose.)

Cyrodiil is the best part of ESO, but you're willing to smother it. I just hope you admit to yourself that the diminishing participation, the lag, the unnecessary withering of something pretty awesome is at least in a big part on you.

its zos problem and should not be put on to the player base, PS ball groups have all ways been super strong, i mean thats the way it should be, now that been said zos needs to do something with heal stacking and some other things, but you know who is going to adjust faster and easyer to nerfs, the ball groups

It can and should be put on both, the AD group that keeps fighting at Arrius while it's unflagged camping the spawn are not doing it by mistake, their lead is saying "this" is what we are doing this morning. Which is fine im sure that stems from being grieved somewhere else and sort of paying forward?

The_Meathead

Joy_Division wrote: »

I actually agree with just about everything @Iriidius is saying, that ZOS has very much buffed organized groups and has had a habit of removing any counter to them that has been mildly effective.

.....

The issue here is the poor mechanics of the game. I do wish some organized players would be more honest and objective when these issues come up. It's fair to criticize their views when specific people make those posts. But even when some organized group players try to do the things that solo players want, you're still going to run into these problems because some people, regardless of how they play, are insensitive to the plight of others and apparently have nothing else better to do with their time than farm AP on non-competitive servers. We are dealing with personality issues. Effective combat reform is going to be the best solution.

Not sure how to link a collapsed comment, so I just quoted your first and last paragraphs but WOW.

Thank you for the direct, honest, and objective take on things. Just hearing it detailed as you did makes it feel a little better, in a "you're not crazy, you CAN believe your eyes," sort of way instead of smoke screening everything or linking "How to PvP" guides for beginners like that one dude did in another BG thread. (Yeesh.)

Great response, phenomenal attitude and understanding. Thanks, man.

xylena_lazarow

Plenty of hardcore team PvPers find the ball meta stale and unbalanced, where do you think all the old hardcore ball groups went? Not this game anymore. Doing tactics for objective modes with pickup groups in 8v8 has so much more depth than the optimal Cyro group play of rolling around turtling for 30 seconds, dropping your pull bomb, repeat ad nauseum. Just did an 8v8 Chaosball where we came from behind by organizing a 4/4 split with balls back and DDs up front.

I see plenty of other Cyro ballgroup and smallscale group players in the 8v8 too which is pretty cool. Just wish support players would start bringing cross healing DDs, which is the support that full DDs really need in this meta.

xylena_lazarow

It also spills over into BGs when there's only one objective, like Deathmatch or Capture the Relic. Winning the match comes down to cross healing and ball bombing. Those strats are still strong in other modes but the multiple objectives force players to split to actually win, which is why they're the most fun to me right now.

Maybe Cyro needs mechanics that force organized groups to split the ball to win? Surely they have the skill to organize two units on two separate objectives under one command. Bring back the beta version roof flag in keeps?

evLRise

Iriidius wrote: »

I dont attack outnumbered players on sight Xv1, but almost every player I see in Cyrodiil/IC/BG does it. But interesting that disagreeing with you and ballgroups automatically makes people toxic zerglings.

So what exactly is the problem at the end of the day? Organized group play IS the answer to hard zerging.

Take organized group play outside of the equation and its nothing but a numbers game.

Iriidius wrote: »

There are still ballgroups that zergsurf, but actually ballgroups are big enaugh to zerg on their own without a zerg and that is also what I mainly referred to as ballgroups zerging.


I already said that a ballgroup can also zerg people down without a zerg because zerging as a verb means outnumbering your opponents no matter if done by an actual (disorganized) zerg or another kind of groups but you ignored that.
12 players is more than enaugh to overwhelm smaller groups or solo players with numbers.
Even when a ballgroup is zergsurfing an actual zerg you usually cant deal with those with a bomber because they get crosshealed by ballgroup and will heal to full midbomb.

If you go ahead and randomly engage in a group when they're 12 on a flag, or try to dismount a full group while solo, or try your luck and ult dump them as 3, why does it even come as a surprise when you get killed? If anything it's no different from attacking a random 12-man.

Iriidius wrote: »

If the unorganized are much better players or catch the organized offguard they will win. 2 good 1vXer will win against Mr&Mrs Average. If you 1v2 and a random nb bursts one of the 2 to low life than you finish him and 2v1 the second you win. They do not have enaugh groupbuffs and crossheal/shielding to prevent that.


Already 2v2ed or 3v3ed some organized duos/trios together with randoms,
organisation does not give such a big advantage in 2v2/3v3 when crossheals, shields and buffs you can share are very limited compared to ballgroup and you can time your attacks only between 2/3 people which is also possible without voicechat.

Organization gives a gigantic advantage no matter the size. If a NB leaves you with 20% HP after a combo and then it's a 50/50 with the execute, that 20% HP won't matter if it's gonna be timed with a DK stun and whip.

Iriidius wrote: »

If they are 3 decent solo players and just random/ ungrouped not knowing each other rather than total noobs they consistently beat 1 1vXer.
But 36 decent solo/smallscale/PuG players still get constantly farmed for not beeing in an organised group with group buffs and heal/shield stacking.


I did say 3 decent solo players not 3 capable/good 1vXers. Could also be 3 decent PuGs/smallscalers but decent players usually do not play in PuGs and 3 PuGs for some people are not 3 randoms nor are 3 smallscalers. But should not be 3 uncompetitive players who usually (get chosen by 1vXers to) get 1vXed because they do not know how to deal dmg/heal/block and get killed by predictable burst combo + extra attacks like
2 dizzy+subassault+dawnbreaker+executioner without defending themself and therefore just bad players.
But it is unlikely that 36 players (which is half a faction) fighting a ballgroup are all bad players and there are no decent ones. 36 decent solo players will still loose to a ballgroup because they do not have group builds.

If a 1vXer wins a 1v3 it is because he is much better than the players he fights.
If a ballgroup wins a 12v36 it is because they have group buffs making every of the 12 stronger than an emperor.

If i told you something like "Group PvE is OP because they have all these cross buffs that make em too OP! We should have options as unorganized groups to have way more DPS if we're playing better!"

OR

"The sets end game PvE'ers use are too OP and they have unfair DPS! Me and my mates should have equal DPS on our solo maelstorm arena builds if we play better!"

Maybe you'd eventually get how completely irrelevant that statement is and sounds.

Also, what exactly made you think you play better? How do you quantify it, precisely? Did you duel people from said groups and won consistently? Did you outperform any of those experienced players in a group scenario?

Iriidius wrote: »

Probably because most of them are either the ones I already listed or do not work.

There's several skills / sets / small group setups that are really effective. There's multiple 4 and 6-man groups who can take down a ballgroup. Feel free to assume it doesn't exist.

Iriidius wrote: »

Who has no valid opinion are the ballgrouplers pretending to be solo players while complaining they got killed by azureblight.

Nice how you get condescending and personally insulting because I do not defend ballgroups after playing in one and remember that I left but not why. Guess you cant imagine that anyone would leave a ballgroup for other reasons than beeing too bad.

When the experienced players who understand how the game works lie and spread misinformation to protect the carries they (ab)use and get every counter nerfed like ballgrouplers who falsely claimed they get killed by azurebligh while playing solo when they actually played in ballgroup I expect the game to not be balanced around these players.

But there are a lot of experienced player who understand how the game works and that ballgroups are overperforming and opposing them.
But in your opinion everyone opposing ballgroups is automatically bad player to unskilled to play in one.

So you try to prove your made-up categorizarion of me as a skillless zergling who can only Xv1 and is too stupid to play in a ballgroup with made-up numbers even admitting yourself that you do not know the real numbers.
It is hard to imagine that you still remember my skill niveau after 1.5 years althought you only joined the discord 2 weeks before I left and I missed most of the raids during that time raiding maybe once with you.

Nah the categorization of you as a

Iriidius wrote: »

skillless zerg

is based on your logs which i have a handful of and i literally just described, and which fit the mentioned label rather accurately. Yes, it looks awful enough that one would be tempted to dismiss it as imaginary data, but that's not the case. You might as well tell me you're top DD in your random vet Spindleclutch 2 with 25k DPS and it wouldn't be much of a difference.

Iriidius wrote: »

So you think players disapproving ballgroups are acting wrong when asking for balance changes to ballgroups althought ballgroups asked for balance changes to azureblight despite azureblight beeing much more niche and counterable and less used and supressing to ballgroups than ballgroups to all other playstiles with some ballgrouplers pretending to be solo players asking for balance changes to azureblight for soloplay when actually soloplayers were against azureblight nerf as it barely damages them.

Sure you can disagree with me but you insult me as an inept Xv1er unable to use a ballgroup build and denying the validity of my opinion without real knowledge of my skill niveau to discredit me and my opinion and punish me for disagreeing.

The main complain people had about azureblight was the unblockable aspect - unlike any other tool groups use, this had 0 counterplay potential. And no one was worried about zergs running it. The prospect of being chased by an organized group running that on top of zerg was the scary aspect.

If anything, you should be really happy that azure got nerfed. I know several people who wanted to experiment with azure for an organized setup, and the numbers a skilled group could pull with that was way above the standard group comp ( it also randomly happens that azure builds were initially used in PvP by ballgroups in attempts to optimize around it, and it became increasingly popular when groups started to bully other groups with it - you can ask some NA players how it felt when one of their top groups started using this ).

You can also tell me how many groups you personally killed with azure. Im simply curious, as i've only been tinkering with theorycrafting around azure since March or so, and i only ran it for like 2 months with a full azure setup in my group, but the data and experience on which you base your arguments seems more detailed and thoroughly tested than mine.

Sleepsin

evLRise wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

I dont attack outnumbered players on sight Xv1, but almost every player I see in Cyrodiil/IC/BG does it. But interesting that disagreeing with you and ballgroups automatically makes people toxic zerglings.

So what exactly is the problem at the end of the day? Organized group play IS the answer to hard zerging.

Take organized group play outside of the equation and its nothing but a numbers game.

Iriidius wrote: »

There are still ballgroups that zergsurf, but actually ballgroups are big enaugh to zerg on their own without a zerg and that is also what I mainly referred to as ballgroups zerging.


I already said that a ballgroup can also zerg people down without a zerg because zerging as a verb means outnumbering your opponents no matter if done by an actual (disorganized) zerg or another kind of groups but you ignored that.
12 players is more than enaugh to overwhelm smaller groups or solo players with numbers.
Even when a ballgroup is zergsurfing an actual zerg you usually cant deal with those with a bomber because they get crosshealed by ballgroup and will heal to full midbomb.

If you go ahead and randomly engage in a group when they're 12 on a flag, or try to dismount a full group while solo, or try your luck and ult dump them as 3, why does it even come as a surprise when you get killed? If anything it's no different from attacking a random 12-man.

Iriidius wrote: »

If the unorganized are much better players or catch the organized offguard they will win. 2 good 1vXer will win against Mr&Mrs Average. If you 1v2 and a random nb bursts one of the 2 to low life than you finish him and 2v1 the second you win. They do not have enaugh groupbuffs and crossheal/shielding to prevent that.


Already 2v2ed or 3v3ed some organized duos/trios together with randoms,
organisation does not give such a big advantage in 2v2/3v3 when crossheals, shields and buffs you can share are very limited compared to ballgroup and you can time your attacks only between 2/3 people which is also possible without voicechat.

Organization gives a gigantic advantage no matter the size. If a NB leaves you with 20% HP after a combo and then it's a 50/50 with the execute, that 20% HP won't matter if it's gonna be timed with a DK stun and whip.

Iriidius wrote: »

If they are 3 decent solo players and just random/ ungrouped not knowing each other rather than total noobs they consistently beat 1 1vXer.
But 36 decent solo/smallscale/PuG players still get constantly farmed for not beeing in an organised group with group buffs and heal/shield stacking.


I did say 3 decent solo players not 3 capable/good 1vXers. Could also be 3 decent PuGs/smallscalers but decent players usually do not play in PuGs and 3 PuGs for some people are not 3 randoms nor are 3 smallscalers. But should not be 3 uncompetitive players who usually (get chosen by 1vXers to) get 1vXed because they do not know how to deal dmg/heal/block and get killed by predictable burst combo + extra attacks like
2 dizzy+subassault+dawnbreaker+executioner without defending themself and therefore just bad players.
But it is unlikely that 36 players (which is half a faction) fighting a ballgroup are all bad players and there are no decent ones. 36 decent solo players will still loose to a ballgroup because they do not have group builds.

If a 1vXer wins a 1v3 it is because he is much better than the players he fights.
If a ballgroup wins a 12v36 it is because they have group buffs making every of the 12 stronger than an emperor.

If i told you something like "Group PvE is OP because they have all these cross buffs that make em too OP! We should have options as unorganized groups to have way more DPS if we're playing better!"

OR

"The sets end game PvE'ers use are too OP and they have unfair DPS! Me and my mates should have equal DPS on our solo maelstorm arena builds if we play better!"

Maybe you'd eventually get how completely irrelevant that statement is and sounds.

Also, what exactly made you think you play better? How do you quantify it, precisely? Did you duel people from said groups and won consistently? Did you outperform any of those experienced players in a group scenario?

Iriidius wrote: »

Probably because most of them are either the ones I already listed or do not work.

There's several skills / sets / small group setups that are really effective. There's multiple 4 and 6-man groups who can take down a ballgroup. Feel free to assume it doesn't exist.

Iriidius wrote: »

Who has no valid opinion are the ballgrouplers pretending to be solo players while complaining they got killed by azureblight.

Nice how you get condescending and personally insulting because I do not defend ballgroups after playing in one and remember that I left but not why. Guess you cant imagine that anyone would leave a ballgroup for other reasons than beeing too bad.

When the experienced players who understand how the game works lie and spread misinformation to protect the carries they (ab)use and get every counter nerfed like ballgrouplers who falsely claimed they get killed by azurebligh while playing solo when they actually played in ballgroup I expect the game to not be balanced around these players.

But there are a lot of experienced player who understand how the game works and that ballgroups are overperforming and opposing them.
But in your opinion everyone opposing ballgroups is automatically bad player to unskilled to play in one.

So you try to prove your made-up categorizarion of me as a skillless zergling who can only Xv1 and is too stupid to play in a ballgroup with made-up numbers even admitting yourself that you do not know the real numbers.
It is hard to imagine that you still remember my skill niveau after 1.5 years althought you only joined the discord 2 weeks before I left and I missed most of the raids during that time raiding maybe once with you.

Nah the categorization of you as a

Iriidius wrote: »

skillless zerg

is based on your logs which i have a handful of and i literally just described, and which fit the mentioned label rather accurately. Yes, it looks awful enough that one would be tempted to dismiss it as imaginary data, but that's not the case. You might as well tell me you're top DD in your random vet Spindleclutch 2 with 25k DPS and it wouldn't be much of a difference.

Iriidius wrote: »

So you think players disapproving ballgroups are acting wrong when asking for balance changes to ballgroups althought ballgroups asked for balance changes to azureblight despite azureblight beeing much more niche and counterable and less used and supressing to ballgroups than ballgroups to all other playstiles with some ballgrouplers pretending to be solo players asking for balance changes to azureblight for soloplay when actually soloplayers were against azureblight nerf as it barely damages them.

Sure you can disagree with me but you insult me as an inept Xv1er unable to use a ballgroup build and denying the validity of my opinion without real knowledge of my skill niveau to discredit me and my opinion and punish me for disagreeing.

The main complain people had about azureblight was the unblockable aspect - unlike any other tool groups use, this had 0 counterplay potential. And no one was worried about zergs running it. The prospect of being chased by an organized group running that on top of zerg was the scary aspect.

If anything, you should be really happy that azure got nerfed. I know several people who wanted to experiment with azure for an organized setup, and the numbers a skilled group could pull with that was way above the standard group comp ( it also randomly happens that azure builds were initially used in PvP by ballgroups in attempts to optimize around it, and it became increasingly popular when groups started to bully other groups with it - you can ask some NA players how it felt when one of their top groups started using this ).

You can also tell me how many groups you personally killed with azure. Im simply curious, as i've only been tinkering with theorycrafting around azure since March or so, and i only ran it for like 2 months with a full azure setup in my group, but the data and experience on which you base your arguments seems more detailed and thoroughly tested than mine.

All those excuses mean nothing, when the ball group is just running the wall and spawn camping for giggles. Ball groups are the lowest lvl of PvP.

Aldoss

evLRise wrote: »

The main complain people had about azureblight was the unblockable aspect - unlike any other tool groups use, this had 0 counterplay potential.

Wrong.

It had an easier counterplay mechanic than plaguebreak.... Split up!

You're just against that because ball grouping behavior relies on being stacked on crown.

Split up and AB does nothing. Stack up, and you get punished.

evLRise

Aldoss wrote: »

evLRise wrote: »

The main complain people had about azureblight was the unblockable aspect - unlike any other tool groups use, this had 0 counterplay potential.

Wrong.

It had an easier counterplay mechanic than plaguebreak.... Split up!

You're just against that because ball grouping behavior relies on being stacked on crown.

Split up and AB does nothing. Stack up, and you get punished.

Where did I ever mention being against it, again?

Splitting was never an issue. The only time when it was difficult to deal with was when you had siege + + azure + 3rd form of pressure like a zerg or another group pushing you.

Like I already mentioned, I ran azureblight in my group for ~2 months with 6/10 people on azure and ranged damage so we don't care about stacking. The group i lead is very far from being the best there is, and considering the gigantic numbers i pulled with that setup, you have not a single clue how happy you should be it got nerfed before the top groups swapped to that kind of composition.

I really dont get how people fail to comprehend that whatever works vs a ballgroup will generally work better ON a ballgroup, as the whole concept of the group is built around heavily outnumbered fights.

BXR_Lonestar

Sleepsin wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is zero valor in zerging

Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.

The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.

Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.

Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.

So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.

And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....

You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..

We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.

Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.

BXR_Lonestar

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

At this point, I'm at a place where I just laugh and say "cry more please."

Here's another analogy. The ball group is the high school varsity football team. The zerg is a random freshmen 3rd period gym class with 20 kids and half of them haven't reached puberty yet. Who are you putting your money on?

I'll counter your analogy with another one:

If ballgrouper's are the varsity and the zerglings the freshmen football players - then shouldn't the freshmen football players see that the varsity players are on the playing field and go elsewhere? It's not like they are being forced to stay there and fight the ballgroup. Cyrodil is a big map after all!

And if your alliance already owns most of the map and there isn't anywhere else to go, that is just the nature of the game. It is going to be incrementally more difficult to take keeps the less keeps the enemy has, because if they have any presence in the server, there are going to be higher concentrations of enemy players in fewer areas.

BXR_Lonestar

Aldoss wrote: »

evLRise wrote: »

The main complain people had about azureblight was the unblockable aspect - unlike any other tool groups use, this had 0 counterplay potential.

Wrong.

It had an easier counterplay mechanic than plaguebreak.... Split up!

You're just against that because ball grouping behavior relies on being stacked on crown.

Split up and AB does nothing. Stack up, and you get punished.

I disagree here. Good ball groupers actually stay split up to avoid a mass pull/ulti drop from another ball group. We only converge when it comes time to be offensive. This also prevents the entire team from getting killed. We can lose 2-3 dps and still be 90-95% combat effective. So we stay spread out until we see an opportunity for a hit, and then we converge.

A ballgroup that stays pixel stacked on the crown all the time is just begging to get annihilated with a single ultidrop.

Joy_Division

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

At this point, I'm at a place where I just laugh and say "cry more please."

Here's another analogy. The ball group is the high school varsity football team. The zerg is a random freshmen 3rd period gym class with 20 kids and half of them haven't reached puberty yet. Who are you putting your money on?

I'll counter your analogy with another one:

If ballgrouper's are the varsity and the zerglings the freshmen football players - then shouldn't the freshmen football players see that the varsity players are on the playing field and go elsewhere? It's not like they are being forced to stay there and fight the ballgroup. Cyrodil is a big map after all!

And if your alliance already owns most of the map and there isn't anywhere else to go, that is just the nature of the game. It is going to be incrementally more difficult to take keeps the less keeps the enemy has, because if they have any presence in the server, there are going to be higher concentrations of enemy players in fewer areas.

No.

There is only one field and that is Cyrodiil. If the "freshmen" could go play in another Cyrodiil absent all the organized groups, then would immediately home that campaign and never look back. Expecting everyone else to just leave when critical AvAvA objectives by a group that ZOS's poor combat balance has made too powerful is not a fair solution as it caters to only one type of PvP players (and not even all of them as I dislike playing with non-competitive rules, even when I am the beneficiary).

Sleepsin

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is zero valor in zerging

Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.

The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.

Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.

Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.

So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.

And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....

You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..

We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.

Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.

Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.

gronoxvx

Sleepsin wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is zero valor in zerging

Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.

The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.

Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.

Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.

So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.

And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....

You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..

We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.

Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.

Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.

Come to xbox na and youll see all of us hunting each other.

Jaraal

gronoxvx wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is zero valor in zerging

Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.

The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.

Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.

Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.

So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.

And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....

You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..

We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.

Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.

Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.

Come to xbox na and youll see all of us hunting each other.

On PC/NA you'll see enemy ball groups standing or farming within range of each other a lot more than you'll see them fighting each other. Reason being that two groups of heal/shield stackers are usually not capable of killing each other, and such battles are most likely to end in a stalemate, ie: waste of time. It's quite common to have one alliance defending a keep, while balls from the other two enemy factions are farming in different parts of the keep.

Turtle_Bot

gronoxvx wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is zero valor in zerging

Imagine a literal tank, with thick metal armor and a really big gun, rolling around against a bunch of untrained peasants with sticks and stones. I'd say those peasants have some valor. The fight is not in their favor.

The point of my post was that, to use your analogy, those exact same peasants would simply be zerging-down a smaller group of peasants if not for the ballgroup, doing the exact same thing to the smaller group that they accuse the ballgroup of doing to them. This is why there is no honor in zerging. They will always eat up the small-mans, solos, and low-pop factions with no remorse, thinking that numerical might always makes right.

Now imagine that heavy tank actively avoiding other heavy tanks so he can attacking the peasants. That would be what ball groups are doing. Before you start talking about tactics, this is a game not real life.

Except this is a battlefield where there are no peasants and everyone is a combatant....Erroneous analogy IMO.

So the complaint is going to be that a group of 12 coordinated players is insurmountable for a group of 30 uncoordinated players, and therefore, the coordinated players should be punished? It seems that the people who are outnumbered are the ones who are getting "bullied" here.

And it is routinely the people who do the outnumbering that complain over and over and over again that they're getting "zerged" by a ballgroup of 12....

You still don't get it. When ball groups start fighting each other, then there will be no need to complain. We all see what they are doing..

We fight EVERYONE. Doesn't matter if it is another ballgroup or a bunch of disorganized people. If your on the same battlefield and your on the wrong color, you are our enemy. It's that simple. We actually love nothing more than to fight good ballgroups because that is who you have to beat in order to build your reputation.

Now some ballgroups may not feel the same way that my group does, but that is an individual mentality issue, and not a ballgroup issue.

Just stop. We all see the ball groups actively avoiding each other.

Come to xbox na and youll see all of us hunting each other.

Come to PC EU and you'll see ball groups actively avoiding each other, even when the "action" should pull them into each other, they will avoid each other, taking it in turns to farm the zerg in between them.

Aldoss

evLRise wrote: »

Where did I ever mention being against it, again?

Right here:

evLRise wrote: »

unlike any other tool groups use, this had 0 counterplay potential.

evLRise wrote: »

Splitting was never an issue. The only time when it was difficult to deal with was when you had siege + + azure + 3rd form of pressure like a zerg or another group pushing you.

Right. Tell me more about how something that's supposedly "overpowered" and needed a nerf, did nothing against a ball group. Which one is it? Was it over powered? Or did it still do nothing against ball groups?

evLRise wrote: »

Like I already mentioned, I ran azureblight in my group for ~2 months with 6/10 people on azure and ranged damage so we don't care about stacking. The group i lead is very far from being the best there is, and considering the gigantic numbers i pulled with that setup, you have not a single clue how happy you should be it got nerfed before the top groups swapped to that kind of composition.

So you're using this against stacked zergs? Why do you think I'd be against this?

evLRise wrote: »

I really dont get how people fail to comprehend that whatever works vs a ballgroup will generally work better ON a ballgroup, as the whole concept of the group is built around heavily outnumbered fights.

12 people hitting me with any skill is going to hurt me, regardless of who I am. 12 people light attacking me is going to be rough in and of itself. That's the nature of being outnumbered. It doesn't matter if a ball group is running AB or anything else, they're going to murder pugs as long as they have a pull and time their ulti's.

AB was the one thing that could pull enough damage (as you clearly pointed out) to even begin to put pressure on a ball group. Now it's gone. So what's your solution? You didn't say it was certain death. You said it was "difficult" to deal with when it was combined with siege and a 3rd form of pressure. We just got one part of the equation removed. What's left?

Seems like more ball group gas lighting to me.

MJallday

simple solution to this

for every 1 person that you are grouped with, your healing ability drops by 10% in cyro
10 people = 100% healing reductions

then people can play in ball groups as much as they want, but then it gives others a fighting chance.