Are Bash builds intended?

Billium813 · February 7

This may be a silly question, but I want to ask it none-the-less: Are "dedicated" Bash builds an intended design by ZOS?

Yes, we have a couple sets that buff Bash damage.

But many Bash sets are really just using Bash as a proc trigger. And some even have a cooldown that seems to indicate that Bash is supposed to be maybe 1 Bash every 6 seconds.

Bash builds have always been a pretty niche, fringe, gimmick build. With changes like Siphoning Strikes, and ZOS adding more unique Stamina/Magicka restore that circumvents Blocks 0 sustain rule, I want to know if ZOS intends for this to be a build. OR, are we going to get something like Tormentor (with AOE taunts) in the future, where ZOS will say "we never intended for Bash damage and sustain to be so great that constant Bash builds are viable". I assume players LIKE that Bash builds exist as a possible build strategy, but if ZOS doesn't intend this to be a build, then they probably aren't accounting for it.

Billium813 · February 7

If ZOS doesn't intend for dedicated Bash builds to be viable, what is their intended limiter to gatekeep Bash builds? In the past, I think it was just supposed to be sustain. But what if sustain makes that not a limiting factor anymore? Are we going to get ZOS adding a Bash Penalty similar to the Roll-Dodge Penalty?

Necrotech_Master · February 7

bash builds actually dont have that great of sustain (they are usually bash weaving power bash), and even with the buffs the dmg is only moderate

it takes an incredibly specific build to even make bashing really viable dmg wise, the only 2 ways to even get AOE bashes are from deadlands demolisher or if you are a necromancer using the goliath aoe bash ult (only available for 20 sec at a time)

VinnyGambini · February 7

I think that healing is the problem of bash builds. With bash build, you have no wep / spell dmg, so very weak healing. The problem is class like arcanist, that relies on shields, not healing.

KS_Amt38 · February 7

There are about 400 sets in the game. Thats the creativity level we get for having so much sets.

umagon · February 7

I am not sure what you mean about the zero regen while blocking being a limiting factor. On bash builds you don’t need to block all the time to bash they are separate hot keys. On my build I combo bash with power slam. The gating factor is how the base bash scales. You have put a lot of focus into bash even for the tool tip to get to 5k. And by doing so you give up a lot of other options.

There is also the issue with power slam sort of locking you into palace while it’s used. I don’t know how else to put it, but if the target is moving really fast it will not connect. The way I see it the play style is already gated and balanced.

moo_2021 · March 3

It can't scale more than 5k and the resistance factor is almost irrelevant.

Power slam hits like blastbone but not sustainable. I usually use magicka spammables instead. About 40-60% of damage is done by bash anyway.

The reason it's good for now is because weaker DoT and people tend to build weaker weapon damage overall for pvp, and so buffed bash actually exceeds normal ability compared to my previous builds - it's 3 hits per second at the cost of 1k stamina.

for pve you can hit the ceiling very easily and it simply can't get higher.

Major_Toughness · March 4

Yes.

Deimus · March 4

Bashcro will be the last thing Necro can do in pvp so my guess is nope not intentional and will be removed

MashmalloMan · March 4

umagon wrote: »

I am not sure what you mean about the zero regen while blocking being a limiting factor. On bash builds you don’t need to block all the time to bash they are separate hot keys. On my build I combo bash with power slam. The gating factor is how the base bash scales. You have put a lot of focus into bash even for the tool tip to get to 5k. And by doing so you give up a lot of other options.

There is also the issue with power slam sort of locking you into palace while it’s used. I don’t know how else to put it, but if the target is moving really fast it will not connect. The way I see it the play style is already gated and balanced.

They're probably not aware because they come from using a controller where bashing happens from block (Left Trigger) + attack (Right Trigger).

Sleep724 · March 4

umagon wrote: »

There is also the issue with power slam sort of locking you into palace while it’s used. I don’t know how else to put it, but if the target is moving really fast it will not connect. The way I see it the play style is already gated and balanced.

I've always wondered why power slam seemed harder to weave than other 1h+shield abilities. Maybe its a bug?

moo_2021 · March 4

not for me. I bind interrupt to my D-pad right and the middle right back paddle, which works better as all attack rotations are in the right hand.

SkaraMinoc · March 5

Yes, bash builds are intended. See Update 32 and 33.

Shadowbinder7 · July 18

MashmalloMan wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

I am not sure what you mean about the zero regen while blocking being a limiting factor. On bash builds you don’t need to block all the time to bash they are separate hot keys. On my build I combo bash with power slam. The gating factor is how the base bash scales. You have put a lot of focus into bash even for the tool tip to get to 5k. And by doing so you give up a lot of other options.

There is also the issue with power slam sort of locking you into palace while it’s used. I don’t know how else to put it, but if the target is moving really fast it will not connect. The way I see it the play style is already gated and balanced.

They're probably not aware because they come from using a controller where bashing happens from block (Left Trigger) + attack (Right Trigger).

I want to submit a ticket about this but I am not sure if ZOS devs will read and consider, so I am hoping someone reads this thread.

On a controller, attempting to change the keybind for bash doesn’t actually give a lot of options because every other controller bind key that can be reached while moving (left trigger) and without having to hold (doesn’t work to hold to click a combat ability) is already in use in combat abilities or sprint or bar swap.

This means if I wish to create a bash build, my only option using gamepad controller is to allow stam regen to drop to zero whenever i bash weave, since the only way to bash is to hold block. This is just impractical in pvp combat (hell even pve)

Furthermore this applies to roll dodge! For years I have roll dodged pve and pvp, holding block on a controller while doing so, unaware that the entire time my stam regen is 0

ZOS. For the sake of just basic bug fixing and equality for all types of players on PC. Please please, fix stam regen so that it is not zeroed while holding block if within a *insert certain fraction of second* interrupt or roll dodge are pressed. This would eliminate the need of a secondary keybind for keyboard players (though they could still keep separate bash key, roll dodge key if they want), while also allowing us gamepad controller players on PC to use these basic abilities effectively in PVP, and even pve in some scenarios.

If this isn’t done, it’s unfairly gimping out myself and others who use a controller on PC in a whole window of gameplay (general pvp, bash builds)

xylena_lazarow · July 18

Have you tried moving out of the way?

Shadowbinder7 · July 18

moo_2021 wrote: »

not for me. I bind interrupt to my D-pad right and the middle right back paddle, which works better as all attack rotations are in the right hand.

What type of controller do you use? I don’t think standard Xbox or PS controllers have this paddle you mention, and it’s not shown in the Xbox keybind options

There should be a solutions implemented for all controllers, not force a PC eso player to buy a special controller that has extra paddles, when it’s not advertised as such by eso pc’s initial gamepad layout

Shadowbinder7 · July 18

To add to proposed bash change, I would suggest that for controllers (gamepad) in PC it is bound to a hold down key and allowed to be repeated, like holding down the attack trigger to do heavy attacks

Shadowbinder7 · July 18

Shadowbinder7 wrote: »

To add to proposed bash change, I would suggest that for controllers (gamepad) in PC it is bound to a hold down key and allowed to be repeated, like holding down the attack trigger to do heavy attacks

For now binding interrupt/bash to a controller key and holding it down only allows a single bash, when it should continuously bash, like heavy attacks do, which is my suggestion

Zyaneth_Bal · July 18

VinnyGambini wrote: »

I think that healing is the problem of bash builds. With bash build, you have no wep / spell dmg, so very weak healing. The problem is class like arcanist, that relies on shields, not healing.

This is incorrect. The reason is healing scaling with health (including arc shield) and it has nothing to do with the fact that arcs have a shield. Bash builds have up to 50k health and they don’t need any offensive stats for their heals to reach high numbers.

tsaescishoeshiner · July 18

You can bash without blocking if you just set it to its own bind. So you can move at full speed and bash without stopping your recovery.

Shadowbinder7 · July 23

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

You can bash without blocking if you just set it to its own bind. So you can move at full speed and bash without stopping your recovery.

The only way to do this on a controller on pc is to bind it either to the d-pad (which is on the other side of your abilities, very hard to try to weave in, trigger, ability, d pad button)

Orrr to bind it to a hold down on one of the ability buttons, like heavy attack is hold dow light attack… but again this is difficult to try to bash weave, and slows you down compared to mouse scrolling up

Biased 🙁