Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Galeriano2 · March 28

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Been playing with and against hardened this week. Meh. Makes mag sorc equal to the other classes with their massive burst heals.

No, it doesn’t 🤣 It makes sorc better

So where are all these sorcs dominating PvP? When DK was overbuffed few patches ago I could feel this immidiately, same goes for nb, but with magsorc despite becoming supposedly so OP after over 2 weeks since patch release I don't see it. Sure magsorcs on average got sturdier but that was the point of whole patch. I still fail to meet some unkillable ultra high hitting sorcs 1vXing in PvP which is what I would consider OP. In BGs they die like every other class, some good players perform decently but average ones are still average. At worst they will be just crutching on shield spam but in 2024 seeing someone crutching on easy defenses is really not something new. And those who crutch on shields usually have really poor dmg pressure. So I ask once again where are all these shieldspamming sorcs killing everyone and dominating PvP?

Galeriano2 · March 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I never made that claim. I would reccomend You to read what I wrote more carefully. And if we want to be precise You never proved that sorc can do this either because Your case studies were not containing cmx of sorc's side of the story so we don't know for example how much healing he recived from surge or if he had vigor or not. You ask others to provide prove to claims they never made when You can't even fully support Your own claims.

This isn't the gotcha you think it is in a game without proper publicly available data, you're basically just calling me a liar and moving the goalposts. I went over why Surge wasn't a factor, and they were both using Bound Aegis not Vigor. You asked me to state my demand clearly, so I did, now it's your turn. State your claim concisely, back it up with CMX.

You have not once posted any CMX. You ask for data, and still have no data yourself.

Nope I never called You a liar I just said that we don't have sorc's side of story.

You may think that surge wasnt a factor but You can't know it for sure since You don't have a cmx from that sorc showing how much heal he got outside of hardened ward. While it's not gamechanger it's still worth to have data like that. You pretty much provided data only for how much dmg You did and how much dmg those two sorcs did all the other things were not supported by any data.

When it comes to moving a goalposts I think You're the one doing it by first claiming I said something I didn't and wanting me to prove it and now You are changing the narration to asking me to make some claim and prove it.

When You asked me to prove the claim I made which was quote "that every class properly geared can survive 8k DPS when turtling up, focusing purely on defense for entirety of a duel while being parsed like a dummy" I proposed You to meet on PTS and You started to move the goalpost from there.

xylena_lazarow · March 28

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I could feel this

You asked for data, were given data, and your counterargument is how you feel.

Galeriano2 · March 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I could feel this

You asked for data, were given data, and your counterargument is how you feel.

Where excatly I was provided with a data showing that unkillable shieldpsamming sorcs have dominated PvP? All I see is a lot of cmx screenshots from duels. It's a big leap to claim that sorcs will take over PvP and base that info on duel screenshots where often said screenshots miss a lot of context. To claim anything these days based on duels is shot in the foot.

Based on duel results nightblade is not that strong, yet it's widely considered as one of if not the strongest class in PvP atm.

RomanRex · March 28

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

No, it doesn’t 🤣 It makes sorc better

So where are all these sorcs dominating PvP?

Again, two or three people are keeping this thread active for no good reason. Citing very limited situations that the majority of players don’t find themselves in. Most PvP’ers aren’t up in arms with the changes, only a very vocal minority who wanted fixes for their own preferred class. It’s sour grapes.

This change makes sorcs more competitive but not overpowered and was overdue. You won’t see an influx of god-sorcs in PvP because these niche concerns are not why the changes were implemented to begin with.

xylena_lazarow · March 28

RomanRex wrote: »

Most PvP’ers aren’t up in arms

Most PvPers are too busy being up in arms that the enemy factions are reading their zone chat or whatever nonsense.

The players who take the time to understand the game and do the tests have found Ward to be a major outlier.

None of the "Ward burst heal is fine" crowd has shown any CMX or even build layouts to support their stance.

Urzigurumash · March 28

RomanRex wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

No, it doesn’t 🤣 It makes sorc better

So where are all these sorcs dominating PvP?

Again, two or three people are keeping this thread active for no good reason. Citing very limited situations that the majority of players don’t find themselves in. Most PvP’ers aren’t up in arms with the changes, only a very vocal minority who wanted fixes for their own preferred class. It’s sour grapes.

This change makes sorcs more competitive but not overpowered and was overdue. You won’t see an influx of god-sorcs in PvP because these niche concerns are not why the changes were implemented to begin with.

How is it sour grapes when OP is a Sorc main? An experienced main pointing out an overpowered part of a class kit to me makes it more credible.

It is wrong that people want their main or preferred classes overpowered, at least in PvP, they want them balanced.

Who would want thousands of hours of practice superseded by spamming two buttons?

What MagSorc main took pleasure or pride in being 1 of 11 PetSorcs in a 2018 BG?

TechMaybeHic · March 28

I think there is a line where some sorcs thought they were not competitive with other classes before this change. Some probably viewed sorc as close to Necro in performance. You cant reach them.

Jsmalls · March 28

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

So I talked to Felon about these duels, he said the ones you listed were straight DPS parses and not a real fight so I don't think there is anything TOO insane there, going full defensive in a fight isn't an issue. Also id like to clarify this was done with a ward scaling off of 36k~ health like you said... Which is not a strong ward, I wish you would have listed the values for the ward but with the heal being 3-5k (with really high crit healing AND major vitality) and I imagine a 9.5k ward with major Vitality (from monster set) maybe that's a 10.5k ward (you can confirm or I can mimic it to see).

But a 14-16k "heal" is not out of line and I think rather balanced... Its when it's reaching 20k for one button that it's a problem.

So what's this trying to prove? 36k health gives a lot of room for error and buffer time to heal. And ward at those numbers isn't out of line. Vigor and crit surge was 30% of your healing so it couldn't be done without those.

At the end of the day I'm not saying ward is balanced (at the upper ranges) because it isn't. But what you showed is not an overperforming ward at all. Felon also said you had duels where it was a real fight, you were putting up 3.5k~ DPS to his 7.5k~ at the time. He said you guys stalemated. Assuming you were using the same setup as above you'd have had blood magic, crit surge, vigor, malubeth, and a mediocre version of ward. So far from "just using ward" and not an accurate representation of what ward is able to absorb.

I'm not involved in the dueling community so I'm not going to pretend I know every stat about it. But the test you put up is no different than U40 Ward (about 15k ward size versus 11k + 4k heal) and seems like an exaggeration of what ward is actually doing.

Fe7on talking about a potential ban on Ward for his dueling tourney

@StaticWave

And I would agree. Hardened Ward in a 1v1 is broken (depending on the build). We've been saying this since the beginning of this thread. And I don't even think anyone has disagreed on that stance. It renders pressure builds useless and can only kill a top tier Sorcs by 100-0 him. Which can really only be done by other Sorcs and Nightblades.

What I've also said is outside of 1v1 is where it loses it's strength. It remains the worst scaling form of defense in the game. Block casting mitigates a % of ALL incoming blockable damage, dodge rolling mitigates ALL dodgeable attacks.

Hardened Ward mitigates EXACTLY X(~15-20k) value. No more no less. So yes for the 4k health it offers, block casting will mitigate damage to that, but the other 13k is wasted stamina/magicka.

Sorcs are in a "balanced" spot in 1vX and an overpowered spot in 1v1. Really what I feel it comes down to.

And I say "balanced" because I don't agree that Sorcs should be tanky, have great burst and have a super mobile kit. But I'd also like to point out that Sorc burst has been buffed for like 3-4 straight patches. Minor berserk/minor force, bound Aegis on both bars, and 10% more magicka.

xylena_lazarow · March 28

Jsmalls wrote: »

Hardened Ward mitigates EXACTLY X(~15-20k) value. No more no less.

Proactive preloaded mitigation. Very different from burst heals you can only use reactively. If you aren't understanding the unique advantage this gives, there's a good chance that's the disconnect here.

sbam66 · March 28

unkillable right now 1v1 vs any class

Jsmalls · March 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Hardened Ward mitigates EXACTLY X(~15-20k) value. No more no less.

Proactive preloaded mitigation. Very different from burst heals you can only use reactively. If you aren't understanding the unique advantage this gives, there's a good chance that's the disconnect here.

Yes Proactive preloaded mitigation that EXPIRES forcing you to maintain it regardless of the situation. But yes that'll give you upwards of 40k "health" to DPS through when active and full health. I recognize that benefit. And in a 1v1 that's extremely strong. But 6 seconds is 6 seconds. That's 17% of your gcds just to make sure it is up (if using proactively). We like to talk about time spent keeping "HoTs" up. But outside of Vigor/Regen HoTs generally last much longer. Cinderstorm 15 seconds, Living Dark 10 seconds, Living Vines 10 seconds, Refreshing path 10 seconds etc. So proactively using Ward takes up more GCDs than a traditional "proactive" HoT.

StaticWave · March 29

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Been playing with and against hardened this week. Meh. Makes mag sorc equal to the other classes with their massive burst heals.

No, it doesn’t 🤣 It makes sorc better

So where are all these sorcs dominating PvP? When DK was overbuffed few patches ago I could feel this immidiately, same goes for nb, but with magsorc despite becoming supposedly so OP after over 2 weeks since patch release I don't see it. Sure magsorcs on average got sturdier but that was the point of whole patch. I still fail to meet some unkillable ultra high hitting sorcs 1vXing in PvP which is what I would consider OP. In BGs they die like every other class, some good players perform decently but average ones are still average. At worst they will be just crutching on shield spam but in 2024 seeing someone crutching on easy defenses is really not something new. And those who crutch on shields usually have really poor dmg pressure. So I ask once again where are all these shieldspamming sorcs killing everyone and dominating PvP?

They been all over the place. I killed just as many NBs and DKs as I killed Sorc last patch. If we go by your logic then from MY EXPERIENCE, NB and DK ARE NOT dominating. See why this is problematic?

StaticWave · March 29

@Galeriano2 ‘s argument doesn’t provide any concrete data. His argument is based off how he feels about sorc.

The problem with that argument is feelings are subjective. While Galeriano may think Sorc isn’t dominating because he couldn’t feel it compared to DK and NB, other people like me who actually do the testing will see, not feel, that Sorc is performing on the same level as NB and can be better in some. How do we do the testing? We test vs good players. I don’t care about the bad meta chasers who die in 20 seconds.

So @Galeriano2 and @RomanRex , I don’t care how you guys feel about Sorc’s dominance. I’ve killed just as many bad NBs and DKs last patch despite complaining it’s a broken class, which almost everyone here can agree with. So unless you can provide any concrete evidence for Sorc not dominating, then we will agree to disagree.

StaticWave · March 29

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

So I talked to Felon about these duels, he said the ones you listed were straight DPS parses and not a real fight so I don't think there is anything TOO insane there, going full defensive in a fight isn't an issue. Also id like to clarify this was done with a ward scaling off of 36k~ health like you said... Which is not a strong ward, I wish you would have listed the values for the ward but with the heal being 3-5k (with really high crit healing AND major vitality) and I imagine a 9.5k ward with major Vitality (from monster set) maybe that's a 10.5k ward (you can confirm or I can mimic it to see).

But a 14-16k "heal" is not out of line and I think rather balanced... Its when it's reaching 20k for one button that it's a problem.

So what's this trying to prove? 36k health gives a lot of room for error and buffer time to heal. And ward at those numbers isn't out of line. Vigor and crit surge was 30% of your healing so it couldn't be done without those.

At the end of the day I'm not saying ward is balanced (at the upper ranges) because it isn't. But what you showed is not an overperforming ward at all. Felon also said you had duels where it was a real fight, you were putting up 3.5k~ DPS to his 7.5k~ at the time. He said you guys stalemated. Assuming you were using the same setup as above you'd have had blood magic, crit surge, vigor, malubeth, and a mediocre version of ward. So far from "just using ward" and not an accurate representation of what ward is able to absorb.

I'm not involved in the dueling community so I'm not going to pretend I know every stat about it. But the test you put up is no different than U40 Ward (about 15k ward size versus 11k + 4k heal) and seems like an exaggeration of what ward is actually doing.

Fe7on talking about a potential ban on Ward for his dueling tourney

@StaticWave

And I would agree. Hardened Ward in a 1v1 is broken (depending on the build). We've been saying this since the beginning of this thread. And I don't even think anyone has disagreed on that stance. It renders pressure builds useless and can only kill a top tier Sorcs by 100-0 him. Which can really only be done by other Sorcs and Nightblades.

What I've also said is outside of 1v1 is where it loses it's strength. It remains the worst scaling form of defense in the game. Block casting mitigates a % of ALL incoming blockable damage, dodge rolling mitigates ALL dodgeable attacks.

Hardened Ward mitigates EXACTLY X(~15-20k) value. No more no less. So yes for the 4k health it offers, block casting will mitigate damage to that, but the other 13k is wasted stamina/magicka.

Sorcs are in a "balanced" spot in 1vX and an overpowered spot in 1v1. Really what I feel it comes down to.

And I say "balanced" because I don't agree that Sorcs should be tanky, have great burst and have a super mobile kit. But I'd also like to point out that Sorc burst has been buffed for like 3-4 straight patches. Minor berserk/minor force, bound Aegis on both bars, and 10% more magicka.

@Jsmalls
I have another counter argument for you regarding block casting a burst heal and shielding:

Don’t you think that with the current Ward, block casting a burst heal is worse because you are cutting off your regen, possibly also losing stam via block cost, and still losing almost as much magicka because burst heals are expensive?

Zabagad · March 29

StaticWave wrote: »

I killed just as many NBs and DKs as I killed Sorc last patch.

And how were your deaths?
You should at least look on both sides of the medal.
To get a better view then just "killed just as many" I would take a look to the ratio.
(even that is not a valid value, but better then just look for kills only)

That was my picture on 3 different Sorcs (and that could be different if I would play NB or DK or...):

So the ratio of kills/death from NB is clearly worse then every other class. (and 2 of the 3 where investing much in detection)
So how do your ratios look like?

And btw: DK is not dominating in my opinion since corrosive got the nerf.

StaticWave · March 29

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I killed just as many NBs and DKs as I killed Sorc last patch.

And how were your deaths?
You should at least look on both sides of the medal.
To get a better view then just "killed just as many" I would take a look to the ratio.
(even that is not a valid value, but better then just look for kills only)

That was my picture on 3 different Sorcs (and that could be different if I would play NB or DK or...):

So the ratio of kills/death from NB is clearly worse then every other class. (and 2 of the 3 where investing much in detection)
So how do your ratios look like?

And btw: DK is not dominating in my opinion since corrosive got the nerf.

I've lost my old Killcounter data with over 70k kills recorded, so this is the most recent one:

Stat Overview:

1159 kills and 237 deaths for the most recent one, with a K/D ratio of 4.89, achieved by solo PvP, small-scaling, and doing BGs. This is also with my current average ping of 250ms. When I had 100ms and was doing more Cyrodiil PvP, my old K/D ratio was 14, meaning I died 5000 times compared to the 70k kills recorded.

Stat Breakdown:

Classes I've killed, ranked in order:

1) NB - 21.04%
2) Sorc - 19.04%
3) DK - 16.25%
4) Templar - 14.66%
5) Arcanist - 9.57%
6) Warden - 7.08%
7) Necromancer - 4.59%

Most dangerous classes for me, ranked in order:

1) NB - 22.52%
2) Templar - 15.32%
3) Sorc - 12.61%
4) DK - 6.76%
5) Arc - 6.76%
6) Warden - 4.50%
7) Necromancer - 2.25%

In the list of classes I've killed, NB and Sorc are the 2 easiest classes for me to kill, followed by DK and Templar. In the list of most dangerous classes, NB and Templar are the most dangerous, followed by Sorc and DK/Arc tying for 4th place. Both lists have NB, Sorc, Templar, and DK placing in the top 4.

So why are NB and DK in the top 4 classes I've killed the most, yet they are considered overperforming according to many people? Why is Sorc also in that list as well, yet I'm arguing it's overperforming? Why are NB, Templar, and Sorc are in the top 4 most dangerous classes, despite them also being the top 4 easiest to kill for me?

It's honestly pretty simple. The majority of NBs I've killed were squishy gankers, the majority of Sorcs I've killed had bad shield up time, and the majority of DKs I've killed were not good. The majority of my deaths from NB were also by gankers, and the majority of my deaths from Sorc and Templar were by getting zerged or outnumbered. It's all there is to it lol. The vast majority of PvPers in this game, especially Cyrodiil, are not as good as people may think. The good ones are rare, and they generally don't attack each other. Unless there's existing beef, they would rather go farm kills at resource towers instead of sweating against each other.

This is essentially why I use most of my evidence from duels, because the only thing I can control is who I fight. Cyrodiil is a pool of players with different levels of skills, and more often than not, the skill level of an average player in Cyrodiil is, by my standards, below average. That can skew the data quite a bit as you can see. Top players have already mastered the basics of PvP, so that no longer becomes a variable that can affect my analysis. When I duel them, class and build difference are easily seen, and that for me is a better indicator of class performance.

So I hope you understand that when I say Sorc is overperforming, it really is lol. The top players are almost impossible to kill while doing high damage. That is also in a confined dueling space where they cannot Streak away to reset the fight at will. Bring that to Cyrodiil, and you will see just how broken Sorc is. A class that can reset the fight at will, have big damage, and is also super tanky is not a good recipe for balance.

Zabagad · March 29

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I killed just as many NBs and DKs as I killed Sorc last patch.

And how were your deaths?
You should at least look on both sides of the medal.
To get a better view then just "killed just as many" I would take a look to the ratio.
(even that is not a valid value, but better then just look for kills only)

That was my picture on 3 different Sorcs (and that could be different if I would play NB or DK or...):

So the ratio of kills/death from NB is clearly worse then every other class. (and 2 of the 3 where investing much in detection)
So how do your ratios look like?

And btw: DK is not dominating in my opinion since corrosive got the nerf.

I've lost my old Killcounter data with over 70k kills recorded, so this is the most recent one:

Stat Overview:

1159 kills and 237 deaths for the most recent one, with a K/D ratio of 4.89, achieved by solo PvP, small-scaling, and doing BGs. This is also with my current average ping of 250ms. When I had 100ms and was doing more Cyrodiil PvP, my old K/D ratio was 14, meaning I died 5000 times compared to the 70k kills recorded.

Stat Breakdown:

Classes I've killed, ranked in order:

1) NB - 21.04%
2) Sorc - 19.04%
3) DK - 16.25%
4) Templar - 14.66%
5) Arcanist - 9.57%
6) Warden - 7.08%
7) Necromancer - 4.59%

Most dangerous classes for me, ranked in order:

1) NB - 22.52%
2) Templar - 15.32%
3) Sorc - 12.61%
4) DK - 6.76%
5) Arc - 6.76%
6) Warden - 4.50%
7) Necromancer - 2.25%

In the list of classes I've killed, NB and Sorc are the 2 easiest classes for me to kill, followed by DK and Templar. In the list of most dangerous classes, NB and Templar are the most dangerous, followed by Sorc and DK/Arc tying for 4th place. Both lists have NB, Sorc, Templar, and DK placing in the top 4.

So why are NB and DK in the top 4 classes I've killed the most, yet they are considered overperforming according to many people? Why is Sorc also in that list as well, yet I'm arguing it's overperforming? Why are NB, Templar, and Sorc are in the top 4 most dangerous classes, despite them also being the top 4 easiest to kill for me?

It's honestly pretty simple. The majority of NBs I've killed were squishy gankers, the majority of Sorcs I've killed had bad shield up time, and the majority of DKs I've killed were not good. The majority of my deaths from NB were also by gankers, and the majority of my deaths from Sorc and Templar were by getting zerged or outnumbered. It's all there is to it lol. The vast majority of PvPers in this game, especially Cyrodiil, are not as good as people may think. The good ones are rare, and they generally don't attack each other. Unless there's existing beef, they would rather go farm kills at resource towers instead of sweating against each other.

This is essentially why I use most of my evidence from duels, because the only thing I can control is who I fight. Cyrodiil is a pool of players with different levels of skills, and more often than not, the skill level of an average player there is, by my standards, below average. That can skew the data quite a bit as you can see. Top players have already mastered the basics of PvP, so that no longer becomes a variable that can affect my analysis. When I duel them, class and build difference is easily seen, and that for me is a better indicator of class performance.

I just tried to tell you, that if you say "I killed..." you don't say anything about the performance of the class. If at all - you have to look for the ratio. All the rest you said (and I didn't ask for

) are valid or not - that was/is not my point.

And even if the samplesize of your data is low - you see that the ratio from NB is 1:4 and Sorc is 1:6 and thats almost what I had on my U39-U40 examples. So - ofc this is still only a very narrow view on the strengh - but IF you choose to say something about it, you can't say: "I killed..." only. And with the ration you see NB have the best ratio...

If you tried to say something about population and not strengh?
Then you could clearly see that NB were domination - without "I killed...." with different methods.
For example my data (but there are other ppl with other data - but all see NB first by a big difference):

StaticWave · March 29

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I killed just as many NBs and DKs as I killed Sorc last patch.

And how were your deaths?
You should at least look on both sides of the medal.
To get a better view then just "killed just as many" I would take a look to the ratio.
(even that is not a valid value, but better then just look for kills only)

That was my picture on 3 different Sorcs (and that could be different if I would play NB or DK or...):

So the ratio of kills/death from NB is clearly worse then every other class. (and 2 of the 3 where investing much in detection)
So how do your ratios look like?

And btw: DK is not dominating in my opinion since corrosive got the nerf.

I've lost my old Killcounter data with over 70k kills recorded, so this is the most recent one:

Stat Overview:

1159 kills and 237 deaths for the most recent one, with a K/D ratio of 4.89, achieved by solo PvP, small-scaling, and doing BGs. This is also with my current average ping of 250ms. When I had 100ms and was doing more Cyrodiil PvP, my old K/D ratio was 14, meaning I died 5000 times compared to the 70k kills recorded.

Stat Breakdown:

Classes I've killed, ranked in order:

1) NB - 21.04%
2) Sorc - 19.04%
3) DK - 16.25%
4) Templar - 14.66%
5) Arcanist - 9.57%
6) Warden - 7.08%
7) Necromancer - 4.59%

Most dangerous classes for me, ranked in order:

1) NB - 22.52%
2) Templar - 15.32%
3) Sorc - 12.61%
4) DK - 6.76%
5) Arc - 6.76%
6) Warden - 4.50%
7) Necromancer - 2.25%

In the list of classes I've killed, NB and Sorc are the 2 easiest classes for me to kill, followed by DK and Templar. In the list of most dangerous classes, NB and Templar are the most dangerous, followed by Sorc and DK/Arc tying for 4th place. Both lists have NB, Sorc, Templar, and DK placing in the top 4.

So why are NB and DK in the top 4 classes I've killed the most, yet they are considered overperforming according to many people? Why is Sorc also in that list as well, yet I'm arguing it's overperforming? Why are NB, Templar, and Sorc are in the top 4 most dangerous classes, despite them also being the top 4 easiest to kill for me?

It's honestly pretty simple. The majority of NBs I've killed were squishy gankers, the majority of Sorcs I've killed had bad shield up time, and the majority of DKs I've killed were not good. The majority of my deaths from NB were also by gankers, and the majority of my deaths from Sorc and Templar were by getting zerged or outnumbered. It's all there is to it lol. The vast majority of PvPers in this game, especially Cyrodiil, are not as good as people may think. The good ones are rare, and they generally don't attack each other. Unless there's existing beef, they would rather go farm kills at resource towers instead of sweating against each other.

This is essentially why I use most of my evidence from duels, because the only thing I can control is who I fight. Cyrodiil is a pool of players with different levels of skills, and more often than not, the skill level of an average player there is, by my standards, below average. That can skew the data quite a bit as you can see. Top players have already mastered the basics of PvP, so that no longer becomes a variable that can affect my analysis. When I duel them, class and build difference is easily seen, and that for me is a better indicator of class performance.

I just tried to tell you, that if you say "I killed..." you don't say anything about the performance of the class. If at all - you have to look for the ratio. All the rest you said (and I didn't ask for ) are valid or not - that was/is not my point.

And even if the samplesize of your data is low - you see that the ratio from NB is 1:4 and Sorc is 1:6 and thats almost what I had on my U39-U40 examples. So - ofc this is still only a very narrow view on the strengh - but IF you choose to say something about it, you can't say: "I killed..." only. And with the ration you see NB have the best ratio...

If you tried to say something about population and not strengh?
Then you could clearly see that NB were domination - without "I killed...." with different methods.
For example my data (but there are other ppl with other data - but all see NB first by a big difference):

@Zabagad

Lol I don't really care about the ratio between Sorc and NB. What matters to me is the circumstance of my death. I've specifically told you the circumstances of my deaths involving NB, which was being ganked from stealth by either 1 or multiple NBs. This has been a problem for years and definitely not exclusive to NB, albeit NB does it best. Overload/Elewep/Cwep gank combo was also nerfed for this very reason.

And I've specifically stated in other threads that brawler NB is the main balance concern due to its inherent high burst, stealth, and recently buffed survivability with Healthy Offering. I apply the same principle to Sorc as well. My main concern for Sorc is its ability to brawl while being a squishy and mobile high damage build.

This is currently the case for this class, as demonstrated by multiple videos showing how a Sorc can face tank large amounts of damage while seemingly in a squishy setup. It should not ever occur to any game that a squishy class can also brawl like this. I don't care how many arguments people are throwing around about how it's not "dominating" or whatever. It doesn't matter. When you include an environment like Cyrodiil with too many variables to account for, your argument loses its strength pretty quickly. When skill level between players are taken into account, then the data is significantly skewed. I've literally demonstrated that in the KC stat overview where you can see how an overperforming class like NB is also the easiest class for me to kill.

xylena_lazarow · March 29

StaticWave wrote: »

When skill level between players are taken into account, then the data is significantly skewed

Oh yeah, well if Sorc is so op, then why am I still bad? Hahaha checkmate! /s

Like we've got Sorc mains here who don't know how shields work, don't know how Surge works, don't know how to survive using mobility and hots like the class was designed.. they really do think their highly mobile ranged nuke should also face tank like a DK melee brawler, they really do want "haha funny button go brrr" gameplay, they think range vs melee is some sort of meaningless cosmetic choice... guess I'll forget about trying to explain usage rate vs viability.

Might as well say those bugged 60k Tarnished procs are fine because "not everyone is doing it" right?

StaticWave · March 29

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Oh yeah, well if Sorc is so op, then why am I still bad? Hahaha checkmate! /s

Like we've got Sorc mains here who don't know how shields work, don't know how Surge works, don't know how to survive using mobility and hots like the class was designed.. they really do think their highly mobile ranged nuke should also face tank like a DK melee brawler, they really do want "haha funny button go brrr" gameplay, they think range vs melee is some sort of meaningless cosmetic choice... guess I'll forget about trying to explain usage rate vs viability.

Might as well say those bugged 60k Tarnished procs are fine because "not everyone is doing it" right?

Right, and if the game actually had an ELO system, and the forums had a system showing a player’s ELO, you would see who knows what they’re talking about and who doesn’t.

There is so much noise on here but I have YET to see a single person arguing against me provide actual evidence for others to analyze (apart from @Zabagad , props to you for showing the screenshot, even if I disagree). It’s just non-stop arguments, and honestly, I don’t buy it, and neither should people who are interested in the topic.

yadibroz · March 29

StaticWave wrote: »

I and several sorc mains who tested on PTS have warned about Hardened Ward healing being a problem in this thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/651611/the-burst-heal-from-sorcerers-conjured-ward-and-its-morphs-needs-to-be-value-capped/p1

Too many sorc mains wanted the change to go through without thinking about the broken aspect of it. So here is a screenshot and video of a duel 1st day of new patch with new Hardened Ward:

Only has Ward and Surge, but can tank 4k+ DPS and do this much damage to me:

https://youtu.be/6R6CJvQS7MQ

Got him to 15% HP and he shielded and healed through my Executioner, with only Ward spam. Yea very balanced. And it's not like I had bad damage either:

So yea, Ward is broken and the heal needs to be converted to a HoT.

Regenerative Ward is the best heal rework

xylena_lazarow · March 29

StaticWave wrote: »

Right, and if the game actually had an ELO system, and the forums had a system showing a player’s ELO, you would see who knows what they’re talking about and who doesn’t.

Oh yeah well, if your rank is so high, that just proves Arcanist is the op class and Sorc is fine! /s

Here's another wild duel against a mag sorc in Cyro, probably the toughest random Sorc I've run into yet. They were running something pretty close to the meta Chudan/Alfiq/Whatever/DDF archetype, and were very good at keeping pressure on with their ranged attack weave, which prevented me from being as aggressive as the previous two I showed.

This Sorc was doing 6k+ each Crushing weave, launching 9k curses and 11k frags at me. I managed to hold the dps advantage and dodge all the Sorc's ult attempts, but the Sorc was healing a lot more efficiently than me, guess how? Yeah, just Ward and passives. No dots, so no Surge procs while on the defensive, just Ward spam to recover every time I landed a Dawnbreaker combo. No I don't have the Sorc's hps CMX, sorry, but there's enough here for you to do the math yourself.

We called it a draw after that random Warden interrupted. Again these duel results aren't to say whether I should've won or not, but to show that Ward spam is all Sorc needs to defend themselves against any skill opponent, and no other class or skill can come anywhere near that right now. Sorc deserved to be slightly buffed, not broken.

TechMaybeHic · March 29

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Right, and if the game actually had an ELO system, and the forums had a system showing a player’s ELO, you would see who knows what they’re talking about and who doesn’t.

Oh yeah well, if your rank is so high, that just proves Arcanist is the op class and Sorc is fine! /s

Here's another wild duel against a mag sorc in Cyro, probably the toughest random Sorc I've run into yet. They were running something pretty close to the meta Chudan/Alfiq/Whatever/DDF archetype, and were very good at keeping pressure on with their ranged attack weave, which prevented me from being as aggressive as the previous two I showed.

This Sorc was doing 6k+ each Crushing weave, launching 9k curses and 11k frags at me. I managed to hold the dps advantage and dodge all the Sorc's ult attempts, but the Sorc was healing a lot more efficiently than me, guess how? Yeah, just Ward and passives. No dots, so no Surge procs while on the defensive, just Ward spam to recover every time I landed a Dawnbreaker combo. No I don't have the Sorc's hps CMX, sorry, but there's enough here for you to do the math yourself.

We called it a draw after that random Warden interrupted. Again these duel results aren't to say whether I should've won or not, but to show that Ward spam is all Sorc needs to defend themselves against any skill opponent, and no other class or skill can come anywhere near that right now. Sorc deserved to be slightly buffed, not broken.

That's the thing. Yeah Wardens and Arcanist are really tough to bring down. DKs and templars are up there. NBs, for having all they have; I generally find they can be killed if you can keep them visible and if they cannot make good use of shadow image, and their major damage is generally sequential with not a lot of pressure without being melee where you can pressure them right back. Sorcs now; are at warden and Arcanist level, have a ton of pressure and delayed burst. AND can keep you at range to avoid pressure mostly unless you spam gap closers which is very inefficient.

You can zerg sorcs, though. So apparently that makes it fine and honestly; I don't bother logging in if I'm not running with my friends these days, so i don't have a problem too often. I often am one of the ones that breaks away from our group to deal with 1 offs as we are grouped to do group things; not chase are around 1 or 2 guys all night (unless they really are asking for it). I definitely notice then.

RomanRex · March 29

Two or three users (comprising 50% of all these posts) who don’t like the change are keeping this thread super active, regurgitating the same points repeatedly. It is obsessive and unnecessary. Citing hypothetical circumstances and limited evidence. Some of the evidence you’ve proffered actually proves the point of those you are trying to argue against. Your “evidence” runs counter to my in game experience and others who have chimed in.

Many, many others disagree with the OP. The Devs have undoubtedly seen this thread with a disproportionate amount of posts. If they view your points as valid they will take them into consideration. Otherwise, they will keep the updated skill that most sorcs are grateful for. This change to the ward is long overdue welcomed. It makes non-pet sorcs competitive but not overpowered. Eventually you have to move on. Squeaky wheels don’t always get the grease.

StaticWave · March 29

RomanRex wrote: »

Two or three users (comprising 50% of all these posts) who don’t like the change are keeping this thread super active, regurgitating the same points repeatedly. It is obsessive and unnecessary. Citing hypothetical circumstances and limited evidence. Some of the evidence you’ve proffered actually proves the point of those you are trying to argue against. Your “evidence” runs counter to my in game experience and others who have chimed in.

Many, many others disagree with the OP. The Devs have undoubtedly seen this thread with a disproportionate amount of posts. If they view your points as valid they will take them into consideration. Otherwise, they will keep the updated skill that most sorcs are grateful for. This change to the ward is long overdue welcomed. It makes non-pet sorcs competitive but not overpowered. Eventually you have to move on. Squeaky wheels don’t always get the grease.

1) ZOS didn’t take NB posts as valid either, and the class continues to be complained about. Same will happen here.

2) You claiming we have limited evidence, but you don’t have any evidence, and go by feelings. That’s even worse 🤣🤣

3) Many people disagreed with you too

4) I also enjoy the change, but unlike you I actually have an objective view. You and other Sorc mains, like you admitted, “welcomed the change”, meaning you don’t care about balance.

5) You kinda know who didn’t have good shield up time on Sorc based on how they define the ability. Even though I disagreed with @Jsmalls ,we both have a common understanding that the skill is over performing in some aspects of the game. Claiming that Ward isn’t overpowered is laughable lol.

At the end of the day, I still enjoy Ward even though I want it nerfed. What sucks the most is Necro probably needed this change more than Sorc, but got gutted instead. What a shame.

xylena_lazarow · March 29

RomanRex wrote: »

keeping this thread super active

Thanks for the help!

RomanRex wrote: »

It makes non-pet sorcs myself competitive but not overpowered

FTFY. Disagree? Show some CMX.

xylena_lazarow · March 29

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

You can zerg sorcs, though. So apparently that makes it fine

You can also zerg down bugged 60k Tarnished proc exploiters, so apparently that is fine too?

TechMaybeHic · March 29

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

You can zerg sorcs, though. So apparently that makes it fine

You can also zerg down bugged 60k Tarnished proc exploiters, so apparently that is fine too?

I didn't make the argument. That's just the logic being tossed around for why 1v1s don't matter

xylena_lazarow · March 29

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I didn't make the argument. That's just the logic being tossed around for why 1v1s don't matter

Yeah I know. Let's look at those bugged 60k Tarnished procs going around.

Is everyone doing it? No.

Does it give you god mode? No.

Does it play the game for you? No, it requires certain conditions.

Does it require skill? Technically, yes.

Does it help balance the meta? In a way it does, everyone complaining about ball groups can now wipe them.

These are all the arguments used to defend Ward.

But as you can see, none of these arguments really matter, we all know Tarnished is broken, and so is Ward.