Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

Fight better people then

ZOS tries to make something more accessible to casual players, so many players still can't figure it out, all the change accomplishes is throwing a wrench into game balance when it comes to equal skill engagements, just like so many other similar changes lead to nothing but yet more casual players getting brick walled by ball groups or one shotted by gankers.

LittlePinkDot

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

We hate stalemate right? Why give Sorc special treatment because it hasn't gotten buffs? Let's keep some consistency here shall we?

Stalemate is an issue yes and the specific interaction of ward + battle spirit + scaling off max mag with a health cap only has its own thing to be sorted.
But to counter your question about why should we give sorc special treatment:
Why should we specifically target sorcs temporary health ability and not any of the other classes temporary health abilities?

If we are to tone down hardened ward such that it has a total "temporary health" capacity of say 12k in PvP, then why are we also not asking for the same thing to be done with offering, coag, HtD, Polar, RF, etc.

Why single out sorc only for finally catching up to what the other classes have been given as defensive/healing/temporary health tools and try to put sorc down again without also putting down all the other broken overtuned heals that are currently in the game and giving us our current tank/stalemate meta.

Even at 39k max mag, I am still extremely tanky because of the burst heal on Ward combined with Vigor, Surge, and Blood Magic procs. The solution would be to either turn the burst heal into a HoT over 4-5 seconds, or reducing the burst heal value to 5% of max mag.

Taking your example of a 39k mag sorc with ward + vigor + surge + blood magic, that would net equivalent healing that other classes have such as:
- a 35k health warden with polar (not complete max health stacked but more than minimum 30k) + vines + lotus (excluding vigor)
- a NB with siphoning (passive component only) + offering + refreshing path (excluding vigor)
- a DK with ash cloud + coag + cauterize (excluding vigor/battle roar)
- a plar with ritual + HtD + rune + bubble
- a necro with RF + mender + vigor + scythe
- an Arc with runespite + runemend + runic defense (which is a massive heal that rivals max health polars that is on a 20 second set and forget timer that heals you automatically should you fall below 50% within that 20s duration).

All of these healing combinations the other classes have, all have their own benefits just like the sorc combo in your example:
- Sorc gets major brutality/sorcery + healing on damage + temporary bonus health
- Warden gets a bonus passive HoT on a heal that scales much higher than what I have listed + major prophecy/savagery burst heal on end (vines) + 10% max health
- NB gets passive and block-castable instant sustain + healing on damage (easier to proc than sorc) + a lot of free movement speed + ulti gen
- DK gets what is essentially a 15s set and forget periodic burst heal + execute scaling healing + double bar major prophecy/savagery + the biggest snare in the game (70%) + stam return
- Plar gets cleanse + sustain + armor buff + 40% snare
- Necro gets bonus resistances + unique mitigation
- Arc gets what is arguably one of the best set and forget burst heals in the game that also immobilizes enemies or grants CC immunity, generates crux (that buffs their whole kit) + grants a HoT or generates ultimate

This is unmorphed with only 30k health, on a health scaling heal, Arc typically sits at 40k+ as base

This is why I (and many others) are having an issue with your tunnel vision on Hardened Ward specifically, even though we all actually agree with you that it is overtuned with the right max mag stacking build.

Yes, we agree with you that Hardened ward when max mag stacked to the extreme is an issue, but so are all the other burst heals (and healing in general) in this game when their scaling stats are stacked out the whazoo, hence why we are in the current tank meta that we are in and that tank meta isn't going away anytime soon.

So if we are going to try and get 1 of these abilities nerfed, then ALL OF THEM should be nerfed to the same level and at the same time too. As you said:

Let's keep some consistency here shall we?

Evasiveness is not a good enough reason to keep sorcs temporary health (i.e. healing/shielding) abilities below the other classes anymore.

Any class can run vamp (in fact this is encouraged/mandatory with current undeath iteration) and slot mist form (blood mist is also another 20s DoT/HoT fyi combining mobility + healing + damage + vamp passives into 1 bar slot) or slot RaT or any of the many, easily accessible and globally available, movement speed options in the game currently to be able to teleport or sprint around with very high mobility and evasiveness.

1v1's are also not a good indicator of precisely how strong in the overall state of the game something is unless it literally 1 shots with 1 button press and nothing else. Every defensive tool is currently overtuned in a 1v1 environment, it's part of the reason for the tank meta we are currently in. 1v1 is good at saying yes, this ability is, in some way, too strong, but that does not say specifically how overtuned it is for every other form of PvP or when compared to what are the functionally equivalent abilities of the other classes.

Polar wardens, Arcanists, cloakblades, coag dks, bubble plars are prime examples of why 1v1 is not the best way to determine just how overpowered something is (as a defensive tool).
1v1 you aren't killing a polar warden unless they go afk and even then they'll probably live long enough to come back and heal up again. You're also not killing a DK or a cloaking NB that actually knows how to do more than just cloak and the only way a plar is dying 1v1 is if a NB straight up one shots them with 120+ ulti crit incap into crit MR.

So far the only real "unkillable" sorcs that I have seen in PvP are players that, quite frankly, would make even current necro look S+ tier if they actually bothered to put time into the bottom classes like necro and even they get killed if there are even a few good players who know what they are doing and have actual damage. 99% of the rest of the sorcs (the majority of the player base) are still very much killable and, quite frankly, fairly easy to kill since they just aren't at that same level of skill. The remaining 1% are typically just tanks that don't really pose much of a threat outside of going afk and can be simply ignored.

And they should. I never said other burst heals shouldnt be nerfed lol. I’m not sure why you think otherwise, especially after many of my previous comments talking about NB.

I have a problem with people clearly ignoring how easy it is for mag sorc to stack 50k+ mag, which with Bastion provides a 13.5k shield and an 8k burst heal tooltip.

Why are you using the 30-40k mag argument? Nobody here is gimping themselves by stacking 30-40k mag. Let’s not pretend they aren’t stacking 50k-55k-60k mag. It’s a disingenuous argument to assume people are playing fair on Sorc when they could go the easy route and stack 59k max mag in Crafty/Rally, which btw provides 27k spell resist/24k phys resist, 3k crit resist, 59k mag, and 30k hp. Let’s not pretend people aren’t running that lol.

Why do I bring up the 30-40k mag? It's because I am running such a build that has 39k mag (42k with DDF stacks).

It has just over a 10k shield and an approx 4k heal. That's 14k total which is well within the norm for what a burst heal should be. It's nothing busted, but it works for me. Reworking or reducing the heal/shield will only serve to destroy other build options for magsorc while leaving mag stacking in a still very strong spot because the mag can still be stacked.

Stacking mag being so easy is why I suggested the rework to BA. Make it harder to stack that much max mag and most won't do it, especially if the payoff is also not going to be as good. Reducing potential max mag directly hits that 1 build while allowing it to function at a more reasonable level while not harming other builds

Why not just have diminishing returns on hardened ward the more mag you stack.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Fight better people then

ZOS tries to make something more accessible to casual players, so many players still can't figure it out, all the change accomplishes is throwing a wrench into game balance when it comes to equal skill engagements, just like so many other similar changes lead to nothing but yet more casual players getting brick walled by ball groups or one shotted by gankers.

Honestly, I don’t care about the shield heal at this point. I’m enjoying the shield just as much as I’m opposing it. Ppl want it to stay, so be it.

What I care about is how tanky an average Sorc zergling is with this update. I’ve had several occasions where the Sorc is chasing me down with frags and mages wrath at the back of their group, and when I streaked thru the group and focus the Sorc, they just spam a couple wards until I take too much damage and have to disengage.

Ward is one part of the problem. It’s also the 10% mag that gives them somewhere between 4k to 5.5k mag that is making their shield so big. Combined, it’s aids to fight against.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

Ward is one part of the problem. It’s also the 10% mag that gives them somewhere between 4k to 5.5k mag that is making their shield so big. Combined, it’s aids to fight against.

Yeah they could leave the heal and significantly reduce the size or scaling through various means. Having a medium size healy shield in combination with Vigor or whatever is still going to be pretty good defense, just not so degenerate.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Fight better people then

ZOS tries to make something more accessible to casual players, so many players still can't figure it out, all the change accomplishes is throwing a wrench into game balance when it comes to equal skill engagements, just like so many other similar changes lead to nothing but yet more casual players getting brick walled by ball groups or one shotted by gankers.

Honestly, I don’t care about the shield heal at this point. I’m enjoying the shield just as much as I’m opposing it. Ppl want it to stay, so be it.

What I care about is how tanky an average Sorc zergling is with this update. I’ve had several occasions where the Sorc is chasing me down with frags and mages wrath at the back of their group, and when I streaked thru the group and focus the Sorc, they just spam a couple wards until I take too much damage and have to disengage.

Ward is one part of the problem. It’s also the 10% mag that gives them somewhere between 4k to 5.5k mag that is making their shield so big. Combined, it’s aids to fight against.

Hmm, it's almost like this is what I have been trying to explain is the issue behind ward and this is the solution to balance ward that I've been trying to propose this entire time (not just on this thread, but on all threads, even those made back in week 1 of PTS). 🤔🤔🤔

From Feb 4th on your original thread about ward, here's what I proposed after proper testing had been done:

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

If anything needs looking at, it's the potential size of the ward itself when max mag is stacked that high that needs monitoring/potentially adjusting.

TBH, this could be fixed very easily if they removed the max stats from bound armor/morphs (since they are now on the expert summoner passive) and replaced the max stats on BA with major prophecy/savagery while slotted. This would fix basically everything for sorcerers outside of Lightning Splash.
- Hybridizes Bound Armor and morphs for all sorcs to make effective use of.
- Limits the potential for stat stacking, back to its current Live potentials.
- Frees up 1 bar slot on sorcs bars since they no longer need to find room for inner light/camo hunter (which reduces max mag by another 5% due to not running inner light anymore).
- Finally ties in crit surge as a properly reliable HoT.

And 1 of many of the same proposal to fix max mag from this very thread:

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

How I would go about solving the issue:

I've said it before, but replacing the max stats gained from BA/morphs with major prophecy/savagery while slotted on either bar (which doesn't buff ward size since they cannot crit) is the way to go. It heavily limits the stat stacking potential for shield size while fitting a needed basic buff into the class kit.
It's a guaranteed 8% drop in max mag and likely a further 7% drop in max mag due to also dropping inner light (5% IL + 2% MG passive) for 15% max mag drop total.
With this, putting everything into max mag will give roughly 50-55k mag, still a lot, but not enough gain for what you have to give up to get it, especially compared to achieving 60k+ max mag allows.
This means most will either sit at 30-40k max mag resulting in a 10-12k ward + 3-4k heal (well within appropriate values for "temporary health" and quite frankly due to only the heal part being able to crit has a lower overall "temporary health" ceiling than a regular burst heal that can crit for much higher will have) or will go pure damage route (no stat stacking) with vibrant shroud as the burst heal.

Based on statics own numbers above (6+7+8+10=31% total potential max mag percent bonuses), this 1 simple change basically halves the realistic amount of percent bonuses that will be stacked for max magicka (down to 16%) unless the sorc gives up a non-existent bar slot to keep inner light, which still results in a 25% drop (down to 23%) and becomes extremely inefficient on bar space since you would be doubling up the major prophecy/savagery buff at that point and we all know how unreliable the reveal part of inner light is let alone how useless it is for anything other than trying to reveal NB.

As for the zerglings being tanky, they are always gonna zerg and turtle up/run away when focused down.
Its been the same thing with all the classes:

- Plars chasing down with beam then when you focus them they turtle up with cleanse + HtD + heal ult.
- NBs that wait until you're busy fighting someone else before 10 of them pop out of stealth and instantly 1 shot you with guaranteed crit spec bows that get to carry their stacks from the random wolves they farmed those stacks on until they chose to use it on you, where even if you somehow survive that and turn to focus them, they've all gone invis again at move speed cap and start their hiding at a range that even detect pots struggle to reach oh and they get to have one of the best heals in the game on top of all this.
- DKs where they chase you down with 10+ DoTs each spamming fossilize, talons, etc off cooldown, then when you turn they turtle up with (pre-nerf) corrosive, coag and ash cloud.
- Wardens where they chase you down spamming MDW then when you turn they drop heal ult and spam polar.
- Arcanist the same with beam/tentacles then turtle up with the shields when you turn.
- Even necro was the same before that class got gutted, I'm sure you remember the old mender that was basically a HoT that had burst heal values for each healing tick on a full damage 1 bar bomb build that combined colossus with convergence that used to be able to easily wipe entire groups (most of the time the boneyard self synergy wasn't even needed and neither was the class burst heal).

Those same players doing it on sorcs now is nothing new, it just means sorc has joined the other classes as a viable option for the average player that won't just instantly die when focused.

We are in a tank meta (and have been since U35). Sorc has just finally been added to this list of classes that can tank up.

A couple of other things to note/state, more of an overall note on sorc and points being raised in this thread than on anything specific regarding max mag or zergs:

1. Sorc doesn't have a true defensive ultimate like the other classes (even NB has 2 ultimate morphs that are big group wide heals with insane HoTs attached). So sorc doesn't have inherent in class access to that same "Oh <snip>, I am dying, save me now" ultimate button that the other classes have in their kits (not that I think sorc should be getting this as well as ward, but it is something to note as it is something that the other classes have that sorc doesn't have and needs to be remembered when comparing class balance).

2. Not directed at you, but there have been a few that have jumped on this thread, and while I agree with you (and them) that we shouldn't be using NB as the baseline to compare a class to, I maintain that, at the same time, we should not be using necro for that same purpose either.
Both NB and Cro are significant outliers in terms of class strength in PvP (just at opposite ends of the spectrum), so both classes are bad comparisons for trying to determine where sorc should sit and be in a balanced spot.

Felt this was worth mentioning in particular as there have been quite a few that have popped into this thread to jump on the "nerf sorc" train over the past month trying to claim sorc is broken at a level that is beyond anything else in the game (even NB/polar) and when pushed to further explain this, it turns out they are trying to compare the buffed sorc to the nerfed necro (which even beamless jabs-plar looks busted when compared to current nerfed cro).

Turtle_Bot

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

We hate stalemate right? Why give Sorc special treatment because it hasn't gotten buffs? Let's keep some consistency here shall we?

Stalemate is an issue yes and the specific interaction of ward + battle spirit + scaling off max mag with a health cap only has its own thing to be sorted.
But to counter your question about why should we give sorc special treatment:
Why should we specifically target sorcs temporary health ability and not any of the other classes temporary health abilities?

If we are to tone down hardened ward such that it has a total "temporary health" capacity of say 12k in PvP, then why are we also not asking for the same thing to be done with offering, coag, HtD, Polar, RF, etc.

Why single out sorc only for finally catching up to what the other classes have been given as defensive/healing/temporary health tools and try to put sorc down again without also putting down all the other broken overtuned heals that are currently in the game and giving us our current tank/stalemate meta.

Even at 39k max mag, I am still extremely tanky because of the burst heal on Ward combined with Vigor, Surge, and Blood Magic procs. The solution would be to either turn the burst heal into a HoT over 4-5 seconds, or reducing the burst heal value to 5% of max mag.

Taking your example of a 39k mag sorc with ward + vigor + surge + blood magic, that would net equivalent healing that other classes have such as:
- a 35k health warden with polar (not complete max health stacked but more than minimum 30k) + vines + lotus (excluding vigor)
- a NB with siphoning (passive component only) + offering + refreshing path (excluding vigor)
- a DK with ash cloud + coag + cauterize (excluding vigor/battle roar)
- a plar with ritual + HtD + rune + bubble
- a necro with RF + mender + vigor + scythe
- an Arc with runespite + runemend + runic defense (which is a massive heal that rivals max health polars that is on a 20 second set and forget timer that heals you automatically should you fall below 50% within that 20s duration).

All of these healing combinations the other classes have, all have their own benefits just like the sorc combo in your example:
- Sorc gets major brutality/sorcery + healing on damage + temporary bonus health
- Warden gets a bonus passive HoT on a heal that scales much higher than what I have listed + major prophecy/savagery burst heal on end (vines) + 10% max health
- NB gets passive and block-castable instant sustain + healing on damage (easier to proc than sorc) + a lot of free movement speed + ulti gen
- DK gets what is essentially a 15s set and forget periodic burst heal + execute scaling healing + double bar major prophecy/savagery + the biggest snare in the game (70%) + stam return
- Plar gets cleanse + sustain + armor buff + 40% snare
- Necro gets bonus resistances + unique mitigation
- Arc gets what is arguably one of the best set and forget burst heals in the game that also immobilizes enemies or grants CC immunity, generates crux (that buffs their whole kit) + grants a HoT or generates ultimate

This is unmorphed with only 30k health, on a health scaling heal, Arc typically sits at 40k+ as base

This is why I (and many others) are having an issue with your tunnel vision on Hardened Ward specifically, even though we all actually agree with you that it is overtuned with the right max mag stacking build.

Yes, we agree with you that Hardened ward when max mag stacked to the extreme is an issue, but so are all the other burst heals (and healing in general) in this game when their scaling stats are stacked out the whazoo, hence why we are in the current tank meta that we are in and that tank meta isn't going away anytime soon.

So if we are going to try and get 1 of these abilities nerfed, then ALL OF THEM should be nerfed to the same level and at the same time too. As you said:

Let's keep some consistency here shall we?

Evasiveness is not a good enough reason to keep sorcs temporary health (i.e. healing/shielding) abilities below the other classes anymore.

Any class can run vamp (in fact this is encouraged/mandatory with current undeath iteration) and slot mist form (blood mist is also another 20s DoT/HoT fyi combining mobility + healing + damage + vamp passives into 1 bar slot) or slot RaT or any of the many, easily accessible and globally available, movement speed options in the game currently to be able to teleport or sprint around with very high mobility and evasiveness.

1v1's are also not a good indicator of precisely how strong in the overall state of the game something is unless it literally 1 shots with 1 button press and nothing else. Every defensive tool is currently overtuned in a 1v1 environment, it's part of the reason for the tank meta we are currently in. 1v1 is good at saying yes, this ability is, in some way, too strong, but that does not say specifically how overtuned it is for every other form of PvP or when compared to what are the functionally equivalent abilities of the other classes.

Polar wardens, Arcanists, cloakblades, coag dks, bubble plars are prime examples of why 1v1 is not the best way to determine just how overpowered something is (as a defensive tool).
1v1 you aren't killing a polar warden unless they go afk and even then they'll probably live long enough to come back and heal up again. You're also not killing a DK or a cloaking NB that actually knows how to do more than just cloak and the only way a plar is dying 1v1 is if a NB straight up one shots them with 120+ ulti crit incap into crit MR.

So far the only real "unkillable" sorcs that I have seen in PvP are players that, quite frankly, would make even current necro look S+ tier if they actually bothered to put time into the bottom classes like necro and even they get killed if there are even a few good players who know what they are doing and have actual damage. 99% of the rest of the sorcs (the majority of the player base) are still very much killable and, quite frankly, fairly easy to kill since they just aren't at that same level of skill. The remaining 1% are typically just tanks that don't really pose much of a threat outside of going afk and can be simply ignored.

And they should. I never said other burst heals shouldnt be nerfed lol. I’m not sure why you think otherwise, especially after many of my previous comments talking about NB.

I have a problem with people clearly ignoring how easy it is for mag sorc to stack 50k+ mag, which with Bastion provides a 13.5k shield and an 8k burst heal tooltip.

Why are you using the 30-40k mag argument? Nobody here is gimping themselves by stacking 30-40k mag. Let’s not pretend they aren’t stacking 50k-55k-60k mag. It’s a disingenuous argument to assume people are playing fair on Sorc when they could go the easy route and stack 59k max mag in Crafty/Rally, which btw provides 27k spell resist/24k phys resist, 3k crit resist, 59k mag, and 30k hp. Let’s not pretend people aren’t running that lol.

Why do I bring up the 30-40k mag? It's because I am running such a build that has 39k mag (42k with DDF stacks).

It has just over a 10k shield and an approx 4k heal. That's 14k total which is well within the norm for what a burst heal should be. It's nothing busted, but it works for me. Reworking or reducing the heal/shield will only serve to destroy other build options for magsorc while leaving mag stacking in a still very strong spot because the mag can still be stacked.

Stacking mag being so easy is why I suggested the rework to BA. Make it harder to stack that much max mag and most won't do it, especially if the payoff is also not going to be as good. Reducing potential max mag directly hits that 1 build while allowing it to function at a more reasonable level while not harming other builds

Why not just have diminishing returns on hardened ward the more mag you stack.

Mostly because even with diminishing returns it can still reach absurd values (look at block mitigation that can still reach over 98% with near infinite sustain despite having diminishing returns)

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Fight better people then

ZOS tries to make something more accessible to casual players, so many players still can't figure it out, all the change accomplishes is throwing a wrench into game balance when it comes to equal skill engagements, just like so many other similar changes lead to nothing but yet more casual players getting brick walled by ball groups or one shotted by gankers.

Honestly, I don’t care about the shield heal at this point. I’m enjoying the shield just as much as I’m opposing it. Ppl want it to stay, so be it.

What I care about is how tanky an average Sorc zergling is with this update. I’ve had several occasions where the Sorc is chasing me down with frags and mages wrath at the back of their group, and when I streaked thru the group and focus the Sorc, they just spam a couple wards until I take too much damage and have to disengage.

Ward is one part of the problem. It’s also the 10% mag that gives them somewhere between 4k to 5.5k mag that is making their shield so big. Combined, it’s aids to fight against.

Hmm, it's almost like this is what I have been trying to explain is the issue behind ward and this is the solution to balance ward that I've been trying to propose this entire time (not just on this thread, but on all threads, even those made back in week 1 of PTS). 🤔🤔🤔

From Feb 4th on your original thread about ward, here's what I proposed after proper testing had been done:

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

If anything needs looking at, it's the potential size of the ward itself when max mag is stacked that high that needs monitoring/potentially adjusting.

TBH, this could be fixed very easily if they removed the max stats from bound armor/morphs (since they are now on the expert summoner passive) and replaced the max stats on BA with major prophecy/savagery while slotted. This would fix basically everything for sorcerers outside of Lightning Splash.
- Hybridizes Bound Armor and morphs for all sorcs to make effective use of.
- Limits the potential for stat stacking, back to its current Live potentials.
- Frees up 1 bar slot on sorcs bars since they no longer need to find room for inner light/camo hunter (which reduces max mag by another 5% due to not running inner light anymore).
- Finally ties in crit surge as a properly reliable HoT.

And 1 of many of the same proposal to fix max mag from this very thread:

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

How I would go about solving the issue:

I've said it before, but replacing the max stats gained from BA/morphs with major prophecy/savagery while slotted on either bar (which doesn't buff ward size since they cannot crit) is the way to go. It heavily limits the stat stacking potential for shield size while fitting a needed basic buff into the class kit.
It's a guaranteed 8% drop in max mag and likely a further 7% drop in max mag due to also dropping inner light (5% IL + 2% MG passive) for 15% max mag drop total.
With this, putting everything into max mag will give roughly 50-55k mag, still a lot, but not enough gain for what you have to give up to get it, especially compared to achieving 60k+ max mag allows.
This means most will either sit at 30-40k max mag resulting in a 10-12k ward + 3-4k heal (well within appropriate values for "temporary health" and quite frankly due to only the heal part being able to crit has a lower overall "temporary health" ceiling than a regular burst heal that can crit for much higher will have) or will go pure damage route (no stat stacking) with vibrant shroud as the burst heal.

Based on statics own numbers above (6+7+8+10=31% total potential max mag percent bonuses), this 1 simple change basically halves the realistic amount of percent bonuses that will be stacked for max magicka (down to 16%) unless the sorc gives up a non-existent bar slot to keep inner light, which still results in a 25% drop (down to 23%) and becomes extremely inefficient on bar space since you would be doubling up the major prophecy/savagery buff at that point and we all know how unreliable the reveal part of inner light is let alone how useless it is for anything other than trying to reveal NB.

As for the zerglings being tanky, they are always gonna zerg and turtle up/run away when focused down.
Its been the same thing with all the classes:

- Plars chasing down with beam then when you focus them they turtle up with cleanse + HtD + heal ult.
- NBs that wait until you're busy fighting someone else before 10 of them pop out of stealth and instantly 1 shot you with guaranteed crit spec bows that get to carry their stacks from the random wolves they farmed those stacks on until they chose to use it on you, where even if you somehow survive that and turn to focus them, they've all gone invis again at move speed cap and start their hiding at a range that even detect pots struggle to reach oh and they get to have one of the best heals in the game on top of all this.
- DKs where they chase you down with 10+ DoTs each spamming fossilize, talons, etc off cooldown, then when you turn they turtle up with (pre-nerf) corrosive, coag and ash cloud.
- Wardens where they chase you down spamming MDW then when you turn they drop heal ult and spam polar.
- Arcanist the same with beam/tentacles then turtle up with the shields when you turn.
- Even necro was the same before that class got gutted, I'm sure you remember the old mender that was basically a HoT that had burst heal values for each healing tick on a full damage 1 bar bomb build that combined colossus with convergence that used to be able to easily wipe entire groups (most of the time the boneyard self synergy wasn't even needed and neither was the class burst heal).

Those same players doing it on sorcs now is nothing new, it just means sorc has joined the other classes as a viable option for the average player that won't just instantly die when focused.

We are in a tank meta (and have been since U35). Sorc has just finally been added to this list of classes that can tank up.

A couple of other things to note/state, more of an overall note on sorc and points being raised in this thread than on anything specific regarding max mag or zergs:

1. Sorc doesn't have a true defensive ultimate like the other classes (even NB has 2 ultimate morphs that are big group wide heals with insane HoTs attached). So sorc doesn't have inherent in class access to that same "Oh <snip>, I am dying, save me now" ultimate button that the other classes have in their kits (not that I think sorc should be getting this as well as ward, but it is something to note as it is something that the other classes have that sorc doesn't have and needs to be remembered when comparing class balance).

2. Not directed at you, but there have been a few that have jumped on this thread, and while I agree with you (and them) that we shouldn't be using NB as the baseline to compare a class to, I maintain that, at the same time, we should not be using necro for that same purpose either.
Both NB and Cro are significant outliers in terms of class strength in PvP (just at opposite ends of the spectrum), so both classes are bad comparisons for trying to determine where sorc should sit and be in a balanced spot.

Felt this was worth mentioning in particular as there have been quite a few that have popped into this thread to jump on the "nerf sorc" train over the past month trying to claim sorc is broken at a level that is beyond anything else in the game (even NB/polar) and when pushed to further explain this, it turns out they are trying to compare the buffed sorc to the nerfed necro (which even beamless jabs-plar looks busted when compared to current nerfed cro).

NB isn't a problem for me this patch. I block weave pretty much 100% of the time so NB practically can't kill me unless I'm lagging. So far, the only 4 specs that pose a huge threat to me are magsorcs, bowsorcs, full proc dk, and full proc Warden. I have to sweat a lot harder vs them, but it would require my internet failing for me to die to them.

I'm sure we've agreed with each other a few times in this thread. Sorc definitely needs to be tuned down, and buffed in other areas to make sure the class doesn't overperform but still gets the buffs they need (aka bar space, which is the true issue of this class).

Udrath

I quit, cause what’s the point of pvping in cyrodiil if there is nothing but ball groups and two of strongest classes (nb and sorc) that are the best at avoiding fights not in their favour. And if you run into a different class they’re tanks with 40k hp or more.

Bushido2513

Udrath wrote: »

I quit, cause what’s the point of pvping in cyrodiil if there is nothing but ball groups and two of strongest classes (nb and sorc) that are the best at avoiding fights not in their favour. And if you run into a different class they’re tanks with 40k hp or more.

I've been saying it since the start, game is heavily weighted towards group v group play. I still play solo and I've just seen over time how the game caters less and less to solo.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I've been saying it since the start, game is heavily weighted towards group v group play. I still play solo and I've just seen over time how the game caters less and less to solo.

Easy op tank and heal messes up group play pretty bad, demands that larger groups show up and zerg if you wanna actually finish an objective. Like when 10v10 stalemates, now you need 20v10 to finish, the opponent comes back with 30, and so on... until you've got the whole server stacked at one keep lagging out and crashing.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I've been saying it since the start, game is heavily weighted towards group v group play. I still play solo and I've just seen over time how the game caters less and less to solo.

Easy op tank and heal messes up group play pretty bad, demands that larger groups show up and zerg if you wanna actually finish an objective. Like when 10v10 stalemates, now you need 20v10 to finish, the opponent comes back with 30, and so on... until you've got the whole server stacked at one keep lagging out and crashing.

Yeah I mean the game has a lot of room for improvement and there are many ways it could be a better game but in this scenario you're also getting to at least fight in a large battle.

And usually it works out that everyone gets some kills even if it's just that you're getting the last hit. It's messy but easier for ZOS than actually balancing the game fully. Also people keep coming back for it so they don't really have much incentive to do much else.

Jsmalls

Was doing some tests with a buddy of mine (he was on a templar) and it appears Power of the Light (we didn't test the other morph) does not absorb damage done to damage shields. Which is... Broken....

Gonna report it as a bug but maybe there are other interactions where shield is causing less damage to be done than should be?

TechMaybeHic

Jsmalls wrote: »

Was doing some tests with a buddy of mine (he was on a templar) and it appears Power of the Light (we didn't test the other morph) does not absorb damage done to damage shields. Which is... Broken....

Gonna report it as a bug but maybe there are other interactions where shield is causing less damage to be done than should be?

ZOS batting 1000 here lately

I had been running my templar over my NB because man; I'm tired of playing what I don't want to play just to have better footing. But why am I playing at all? There's no integrity in the games code

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Was doing some tests with a buddy of mine (he was on a templar) and it appears Power of the Light (we didn't test the other morph) does not absorb damage done to damage shields. Which is... Broken....

Gonna report it as a bug but maybe there are other interactions where shield is causing less damage to be done than should be?

ZOS batting 1000 here lately

I had been running my templar over my NB because man; I'm tired of playing what I don't want to play just to have better footing. But why am I playing at all? There's no integrity in the games code

You are usually better off playing what you really connect with even if it's in a mildly bad place. I had a lot of fun before this patch getting my magsorc to a highly playable place in spite of the shortcomings. But yeah this game can really hold you back sometimes when it comes to enjoying your class

DaisyRay

Maybe I'm just using it wrong, but hardened ward doesn't give me any significant advantage that the shield didn't already provide. I rely on other heals on my bar, so the small heal from the shield isn't noticeable outside of when I'm on my negate tank. It's no where near the amount of the dk or warden heal.

xylena_lazarow

DaisyRay wrote: »

Maybe I'm just using it wrong, but hardened ward doesn't give me any significant advantage that the shield didn't already provide. I rely on other heals on my bar, so the small heal from the shield isn't noticeable outside of when I'm on my negate tank. It's no where near the amount of the dk or warden heal.

It's the sort of thing that creates a huge power gap between "normal" builds and extreme minmax builds (e.g. 60k max mag) in a manner that no other single skill is doing right now.

RomanRex

DaisyRay wrote: »

Maybe I'm just using it wrong, but hardened ward doesn't give me any significant advantage that the shield didn't already provide. I rely on other heals on my bar, so the small heal from the shield isn't noticeable outside of when I'm on my negate tank. It's no where near the amount of the dk or warden heal.

100%. This change helps most players. The issues being repeated here ad nauseum are for niche builds/situations that a majority of casual players don’t engage with. The skill is perfectly fine after the change. It makes sorcs competitive without being overpowered.

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

Maybe I'm just using it wrong, but hardened ward doesn't give me any significant advantage that the shield didn't already provide. I rely on other heals on my bar, so the small heal from the shield isn't noticeable outside of when I'm on my negate tank. It's no where near the amount of the dk or warden heal.

100%. This change helps most players. The issues being repeated here ad nauseum are for niche builds/situations that a majority of casual players don’t engage with. The skill is perfectly fine after the change. It makes sorcs competitive without being overpowered.

@RomanRex

You have zero arguments to prove the skill is fine lol. I’ve noticed that several of your comments in this thread follow the same pattern:

1) You claimed the issues I’ve raised are hypothetical
2) You claimed the skill is fine and not over powered
3) You claimed I’m just beating a dead horse

Yet you haven’t provided a single piece of evidence to prove me wrong other than your “personal experience”, which you never cared to elaborate either lol. Using your logic, my personal experience has been nothing but magsorcs dominating the majority of PvP fights. I’ve included several Youtube videos of well-known and experienced Sorc players, who quite frankly, are better PvPers than most people on this thread. They all say the same thing about Ward overperforming.

I’m sorry to say this, and I don’t mean to be toxic, but you are probably not playing at the level I’m playing at. All your comments have been pretty non constructive so far. And tbh, I’m quite tired of having to argue with people who clearly don’t understand the problem. If you happen to be on PCNA, let’s do a few duels in Stormhaven, then queue for BG yea? Show me how Ward isn’t overpowered, and I’ll show you why you’re wrong.

RomanRex

StaticWave wrote: »

I’m sorry to say this, and I don’t mean to be toxic, but you are probably not playing at the level I’m playing at. All your comments have been pretty non constructive so far.

I am glad you are so confident in yourself, but I doubt you are that much better. I’ve got 4500 hours of playtime and half of that is PvP… Cyro, IC and hundreds (maybe over a thousand) of BG’s. I’ve played the game long enough to know what you are complaining about is great in theory but seldom found in the wild.

There are OP, niche builds with great risk/reward for all classes. This a wonderful necessary fix that helps make most sorcs more competitive without being overpowered.

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I’m sorry to say this, and I don’t mean to be toxic, but you are probably not playing at the level I’m playing at. All your comments have been pretty non constructive so far.

I am glad you are so confident in yourself, but I doubt you are that much better. I’ve got 4500 hours of playtime and half of that is PvP… Cyro, IC and hundreds (maybe over a thousand) of BG’s. I’ve played the game long enough to know what you are complaining about is great in theory but seldom found in the wild.

There are OP, niche builds with great risk/reward for all classes. This a wonderful necessary fix that helps make most sorcs more competitive without being overpowered.

Oh you wanna compare hours? I have over 14k hours, and 80% of that is PvP. In fact, over the years I’ve been making Youtube videos of my Sorc gameplay, from 1vXing, to doing BGs, to small scaling outnumbered, and to making builds that a lot of people have tried for themselves.

You claim you’ve played the game long enough, then get online around 9PM your time on PC NA and show me. I’m always in Stormhaven. Please add me @Static.Wave, and go there and show me. After we duel, let’s do a couple BGs too. I also play with 250 ping too, so you have an advantage already.

I know you’re going to avoid the friendly duel request, so I don’t expect much from you anyways. I’ll tell you this though. There are several top tier magsorc mains in Stormhaven who would gladly prove you wrong, including @MetallicMonk who is pretty well known on the forums as one of the better magsorcs. He also thinks Ward is overperforming.

So show up and back the talk. I’m done arguing with you lmao.

RomanRex

StaticWave wrote: »

So show up and back the talk. I’m done arguing with you lmao.

No thanks. I know I am phenomenal. :-)

Again, I am glad you are confident but dueling is a very limited aspect of this game. Maybe this gives sorcs with a niche build a dueling advantage. Every class has strengths/weaknesses in certain circumstances. Perhaps put on a Shield Breaker set if you are going to be dueling sorcs. There are ways to overcome the strengths of other classes.

Overall, this is an overdue and welcome change that helps keeps sorcs competitive without being overpowered in most situations!

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

Maybe I'm just using it wrong, but hardened ward doesn't give me any significant advantage that the shield didn't already provide. I rely on other heals on my bar, so the small heal from the shield isn't noticeable outside of when I'm on my negate tank. It's no where near the amount of the dk or warden heal.

100%. This change helps most players. The issues being repeated here ad nauseum are for niche builds/situations that a majority of casual players don’t engage with. The skill is perfectly fine after the change. It makes sorcs competitive without being overpowered.

@RomanRex

You have zero arguments to prove the skill is fine lol. I’ve noticed that several of your comments in this thread follow the same pattern:

1) You claimed the issues I’ve raised are hypothetical
2) You claimed the skill is fine and not over powered
3) You claimed I’m just beating a dead horse

Yet you haven’t provided a single piece of evidence to prove me wrong other than your “personal experience”, which you never cared to elaborate either lol. Using your logic, my personal experience has been nothing but magsorcs dominating the majority of PvP fights. I’ve included several Youtube videos of well-known and experienced Sorc players, who quite frankly, are better PvPers than most people on this thread. They all say the same thing about Ward overperforming.

I’m sorry to say this, and I don’t mean to be toxic, but you are probably not playing at the level I’m playing at. All your comments have been pretty non constructive so far. And tbh, I’m quite tired of having to argue with people who clearly don’t understand the problem. If you happen to be on PCNA, let’s do a few duels in Stormhaven, then queue for BG yea? Show me how Ward isn’t overpowered, and I’ll show you why you’re wrong.

@StaticWave

But your comments are just as useful and just as useless.

Neither is right or wrong because you can't prove or disprove an opinion.

The only thing we know for certain is some feel ward is over performing and others don't. There's no way to really know who is in any way more correct than the other because we don't have that data. And to be clear I mean true data that only ZOS has.

It's perfectly fine to post clips and share cmx data but that is just one way of seeing it.

Just as you Static say someone isn't playing at your level remember that you too might not be playing at theirs.

Does the vote of a zergling count any less than that of the 1vx player? Nope it doesn't. Both players matter equally because they both play the same game even if they have different visions for what's ok or not in the game.


Without data from the whole population you or anyone else is just saying this is what I saw when I logged in for a free hours. It's interesting but not definitive.

What we actually need that we don't have is things like the following.

Full population metrics to understand the spike in sorc population and how it measures over time. Not just someone or a few someones saying I saw or didn't see sorcs everywhere.

Sorc shield size and usage metrics for the entire population. We can't rely on the one person or small group posting about cmx, duels, a video they clipped, etc. It's not true to the full picture.

TTK data on sorc encounters to understand if they truly are killing or getting killed more or less in encounters when the population is factored in.


Sensing a theme here on things we don't have that we can only guess at?


I'm not saying this to detract from any views shared here so far but just to remind everyone that nobody has a clear picture truly so all we can do is share opinions and views and respect others that are doing the same even if we don't agree.

It's totally fine to share thoughts and hope the devs read it. And it makes sense to present points and counter points. But unless you work in development for ZOS your opinion is just as valuable or not valuable as anyone else playing the game in this specific case.

StaticWave

Oh and btw, there are many ppl on the forums who think they know what they’re talking about, until you find them in game and they turn out to be not that great.

I remember having an argument with someone about Sorc balance a few years ago, and he was getting a lot of “likes” for his comments. His style of arguing was like some ppl here, with lots of disproving ppl’s points while having zero essence in his arguments and didn’t bother to provide a constructive counter argument.

Long story short, I accidentally ran into him in game and he was a CP 350. I requested to duel him right there, and killed him in 10 seconds. His mechanics was what I would expect from a below-average player in Cyrodiil.

I love to argue constructively, but sometimes I run into ppl like him on the forums and I wonder if there should be a function to show who actually knows what they’re talking about or not. It’s fine to say the skill is helpful for casual players, and I completely agree with that, but to claim it’s “fine and not overperforming”, while many top tier players say otherwise, is either blatantly arguing in bad faith or a lack of understanding of combat balance.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

Maybe I'm just using it wrong, but hardened ward doesn't give me any significant advantage that the shield didn't already provide. I rely on other heals on my bar, so the small heal from the shield isn't noticeable outside of when I'm on my negate tank. It's no where near the amount of the dk or warden heal.

100%. This change helps most players. The issues being repeated here ad nauseum are for niche builds/situations that a majority of casual players don’t engage with. The skill is perfectly fine after the change. It makes sorcs competitive without being overpowered.

@RomanRex

You have zero arguments to prove the skill is fine lol. I’ve noticed that several of your comments in this thread follow the same pattern:

1) You claimed the issues I’ve raised are hypothetical
2) You claimed the skill is fine and not over powered
3) You claimed I’m just beating a dead horse

Yet you haven’t provided a single piece of evidence to prove me wrong other than your “personal experience”, which you never cared to elaborate either lol. Using your logic, my personal experience has been nothing but magsorcs dominating the majority of PvP fights. I’ve included several Youtube videos of well-known and experienced Sorc players, who quite frankly, are better PvPers than most people on this thread. They all say the same thing about Ward overperforming.

I’m sorry to say this, and I don’t mean to be toxic, but you are probably not playing at the level I’m playing at. All your comments have been pretty non constructive so far. And tbh, I’m quite tired of having to argue with people who clearly don’t understand the problem. If you happen to be on PCNA, let’s do a few duels in Stormhaven, then queue for BG yea? Show me how Ward isn’t overpowered, and I’ll show you why you’re wrong.

@StaticWave

But your comments are just as useful and just as useless.

Neither is right or wrong because you can't prove or disprove an opinion.

The only thing we know for certain is some feel ward is over performing and others don't. There's no way to really know who is in any way more correct than the other because we don't have that data. And to be clear I mean true data that only ZOS has.

It's perfectly fine to post clips and share cmx data but that is just one way of seeing it.

Just as you Static say someone isn't playing at your level remember that you too might not be playing at theirs.

Does the vote of a zergling count any less than that of the 1vx player? Nope it doesn't. Both players matter equally because they both play the same game even if they have different visions for what's ok or not in the game.


Without data from the whole population you or anyone else is just saying this is what I saw when I logged in for a free hours. It's interesting but not definitive.

What we actually need that we don't have is things like the following.

Full population metrics to understand the spike in sorc population and how it measures over time. Not just someone or a few someones saying I saw or didn't see sorcs everywhere.

Sorc shield size and usage metrics for the entire population. We can't rely on the one person or small group posting about cmx, duels, a video they clipped, etc. It's not true to the full picture.

TTK data on sorc encounters to understand if they truly are killing or getting killed more or less in encounters when the population is factored in.


Sensing a theme here on things we don't have that we can only guess at?


I'm not saying this to detract from any views shared here so far but just to remind everyone that nobody has a clear picture truly so all we can do is share opinions and views and respect others that are doing the same even if we don't agree.

It's totally fine to share thoughts and hope the devs read it. And it makes sense to present points and counter points. But unless you work in development for ZOS your opinion is just as valuable or not valuable as anyone else playing the game in this specific case.

@Bushido2513

1) Relying on data is useless. Look at NB lol. They constantly get PvP buffs despite them being intended for PvE. So either ZOS doesn’t care about PvP data, or they don’t have the same metrics as we do

2) My comments are definitely not useless. Idk why you would even say that lol. I’ve been showing cases of where Shield over performs. Compare that to RomanRex who hops in the thread once in a while to comment something useless like “only a few people are talking” or “sorc is fine and not OP” without showing any concrete evidence, even in the form of his personal gameplay. You’re arguing in bad faith here cmon man lol

3) The vote of a zergling only matters if he shows his own gameplay. If he doesn’t, then his vote holds no weight. What would be the point of testing then if ppl can just argue without needing to experience it themselves?

RomanRex

@Bushido2513 is 100% correct.

Also, “top tier” is subjective. What you think makes someone top-tier may be irrelevant to someone else. @StaticWave you believe yourself to be better than most players and therefore your opinion is more valid. In reality, the experiences and play style of the general population is far more important for the health of the game.

There are set/skill combinations within each class that can be considered “broken“. If used correctly, Harden Ward can certainly be built around for optimal advantage, but it isn’t broken. You just haven’t adjusted to the new reality and have to figure out new ways to counter opponents who use it.

While you may have a very strong opinion, I’ve seen no evidence in actual gameplay to support your complaints. Demanding evidence to prove a negative doesn’t work because the evidence isn’t there. Making videos or screen grabs from isolated encounters, does not prove anything.

xylena_lazarow

RomanRex wrote: »

This a wonderful necessary fix that helps make most sorcs more competitive without being overpowered.

This isn't the first time this argument has come up ITT but it's worth addressing again. Sure you can take any broken op game element you want, pair it with incoherent junk, and the resulting build won't be overpowered. So what? Bad builds and bad gameplay aren't a measure of anything, see post 184. Last patch I should've argued that flat scaling MDW was fine because you could pair it with Bahraha + Spelunker and the resulting build wouldn't be overpowered.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

. It’s fine to say the skill is helpful for casual players, and I completely agree with that, but to claim it’s “fine and not overperforming”, while many top tier players say otherwise, is either blatantly arguing in bad faith or a lack of understanding of combat balance.

Both of those can be true if the person doesn't share your desires and experiences for combat. That doesn't mean they don't have a point or don't understand combat. They just don't see it the same as you.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Oh and btw, there are many ppl on the forums who think they know what they’re talking about, until you find them in game and they turn out to be not that great.

I remember having an argument with someone about Sorc balance a few years ago, and he was getting a lot of “likes” for his comments. His style of arguing was like some ppl here, with lots of disproving ppl’s points while having zero essence in his arguments and didn’t bother to provide a constructive counter argument.

Long story short, I accidentally ran into him in game and he was a CP 350. I requested to duel him right there, and killed him in 10 seconds. His mechanics was what I would expect from a below-average player in Cyrodiil.

I love to argue constructively, but sometimes I run into ppl like him on the forums and I wonder if there should be a function to show who actually knows what they’re talking about or not. It’s fine to say the skill is helpful for casual players, and I completely agree with that, but to claim it’s “fine and not overperforming”, while many top tier players say otherwise, is either blatantly arguing in bad faith or a lack of understanding of combat balance.

Going by this logic only people who were the top sport players should be top sport coaches. We know it doesn't work like that in real life so why it should work like that in gaming? You can have pretty new players that are pretty average at clicking but still provide some decent arguments and on the other hand You can have veterans that are pretty good at gameplay that have no idea what they're talking about. This is why it's better to focus on the arguments themselves rather than people that provided them.


Oh and btw it's been a month since U41 release. Where are all the shieldspamming sorcs dominating PvP? If to belive that thread's earlier predictions we should see overflow of sorcs like that already.

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

@Bushido2513 is 100% correct.

Also, “top tier” is subjective. What you think makes someone top-tier may be irrelevant to someone else. @StaticWave you believe yourself to be better than most players and therefore your opinion is more valid. In reality, the experiences and play style of the general population is far more important for the health of the game.

There are set/skill combinations within each class that can be considered “broken“. If used correctly, Harden Ward can certainly be built around for optimal advantage, but it isn’t broken. You just haven’t adjusted to the new reality and have to figure out new ways to counter opponents who use it.

While you may have a very strong opinion, I’ve seen no evidence in actual gameplay to support your complaints. Demanding evidence to prove a negative doesn’t work because the evidence isn’t there. Making videos or screen grabs from isolated encounters, does not prove anything.

@RomanRex
1) Top tier isn’t entirely subjective. It may be if we’re talking about the 0.05% of the player base, but the “elite” PvP community is very tightly knit and people know each other. There are always going to be good players and bad players, and it’s very easy to tell who’s top tier and who isn’t, especially in ESO where the PvP community is small. For example, the top tier ball groups in Cyrodiil rarely die and seeing their guild tags are a common thing. The top tier duelers always win fights. The top tier solo PvPers can often be seen 1vXing group of players. You’ve said you also play BGs, so you will most likely run into top tier BG players at some point too.

2) How would you know if I don’t adapt or not?

3) I asked you to come duel me to prove your point that it isn’t broken, and I’ll prove my point. It’s really that simple. I’ll duel you with the current magsorc spec, both melee and ranged. Show everyone here why it’s not broken.

But I already knew you would dodge 🤣. Like I said, if you were actually confident in your statement, you would take up the challenge.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

. It’s fine to say the skill is helpful for casual players, and I completely agree with that, but to claim it’s “fine and not overperforming”, while many top tier players say otherwise, is either blatantly arguing in bad faith or a lack of understanding of combat balance.

Both of those can be true if the person doesn't share your desires and experiences for combat. That doesn't mean they don't have a point or don't understand combat. They just don't see it the same as you.

Then don’t shut down other people’s view and provide nothing of essence to explain? You’re beating around the bush in the thread.

To claim that Ward isn’t overperforming requires just as much evidence as claiming it is, because like you said, it isn’t set in stone yet. The burden of proof is up to both you and me, not just me. I provided my side of the argument, and you must also provide your side. You and @RomanRex arguing without showing sources of evidence is arguing in bad faith. It’s just how it is.