universal_wrath wrote: »

thepandalore wrote: »

Just wanted to leave some thoughts about Tormentor's evisceration here, specifically related to the Tankplar experience. The use of Tormentor to the exclusion of other sets on Templar tank is a direct consequence of the tankplar's glaring lack of utility in PVE content outside its synergistic behavior with Tormentor. The templar tank simply doesn't provide the buffs to group or debuffs to single targets that other classes' tanks are able to provide, relegating its utility squarely in the realm of basic crowd control by way of simple interruptions, stuns, and slows, sprinkled with a few buffs and a debuff which are all more easily sourced from other classes and roles, which also bringing more to the table. The above-board and un-secretive alignment of Explosive Charge's AOE direct damage, as plainly described in its tooltip, with Tormentor's proc condition, as plainly described in its tooltip, is a way to compensate for that lack of utility in groups where other roles are even minimally optimized. The tankplar has been deprecated by neglect, and as of update 41, targeted distaste. If you're sure about gutting Tormentor, the least that should also be done is a rework of the Templar class to bring its tanking toolkit up to speed with the others. The sorctank brings roughly the same number of named and unnamed buffs and debuffs as the tankplar, but outperforms the tankplar because of the quality of those effects. Just to spell it out, the templar toolkit brings a fraction of the buffs & debuffs to a group that other classes' toolkits can bring, and when compared to templar, other classes bring comparable buffs and much more to a group without going outside the class toolkit, which the templar must do to approach a minimum of the utility provided by those same classes.

These are the buffs and debuffs a naked templar tank could bring to a group.

• Minor Sorcery from Illuminate [can be granted by potions].
• Minor Endurance, Fortitude, and Intellect from Radiant Aura [these are all provided by Zenas Disc, and Zenas also provides Minor Courage].
• Major Maim from Nova [will automatically be provided by an ice staff's taunt].
• Major Defile from Dark Flare [if it's even needed, this can also be provided by a Warden's Corrupting Pollen, which also provides cowardice and heals allies]
• Stun, Interrupt, and Off Balance from Explosive Charge

A naked sorctank:

• Major Berserk from Summon Storm Atronach
• Concussion from Summon Storm Atronach
• Minor Intellect and Minor Endurance from Regenerative Ward
• Minor Prophecy from Exploitation
• Enemy AOE cancelation and group heals from Absorption Field
• Reduce target armor from Crystal Weapon

A naked warden tank:

• Major Projection and Chilled form Permafrost
• Major Resolve from Ice Fortress
• Chilled and Immobilize from Arctic Blast
• Increase Chilled chance from Glacial presence
• Enchanted Growth will grant Minor Endurance, Intellect, and also Minor Toughness with the Maturation passive
• Minor Lifesteal from Leeching Vines
• Major Defile and Minor Cowardice from Corrupting Pollen
• Off Balance from Dive
• Minor Breach from Deep Fissure
• Minor Vulnerability from Swarm
• Move an Enemy with Gate

A naked nightblade tank:

• Minor Vulnerability from Teleport Strike
• Major breach from Mark Target
• Minor Savagery from Hemorrhage
• Major Protection from Consuming Darkness
• Off Balance from Concealed Weapon]
• Major Expedition, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect from Refreshing Path
• Major Cowardice from Aspect of Terror
• Minor Maim from Summon Shade
• Major Vitality from Soul Siphon
• Minor Magicksteal from Debiitate

A naked DK tank

• Major Breach from Noxious Breath
• Taunt and Move with Unrelenting Grip
• AOE Minor Maim from Choking Talons
• Stun, Interrupt, and Off Balance from Deep Breath
• Stagger from Stone Giant
• Major Brutality and Major Sorcery from Igneous Weapons
• Damage Shield to allies from Igneous Shield
• Minor Brutality on Cast for group from Mountains Blessing

A naked Necro tank

• Off Balance from Ruinous Scythe
• Taunt and Move with Beckoning Armor
• Minor Protection from Agony Totem
• Minor vulnerability from Agony Totem
• Minor Maim from Empowering Grasp
• Empower to allies from Empowering Grasp
• Major Vulnerability from Frozen Colossus
• Major Defile from Blighted Blastbones
• Major Breach from Unnerving Boneyard

A naked Arctank

• Major Protection and up to 200 Weapon & Spell damage from Glyphic of the Tides
• Minor Heroism from Audacious Runemend
• Minor Courage, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, and Minor Endurance from Zenas Disc
• Move Enemies with Rune of Displacement
• Taunt and Minor Maim with Runic Jolt
• Taunt, Minor Maim, and 2200 Armor Reduction with Runic Sunder
• Taunt, Minor Maim, and Minor Lifesteal with Runic Embrace
• MInor Breach from Fatewoven Armor
• Minor Resolve from Runeguard of Still Waters
• Immobilize enemies with Runeguard of Still Waters
• Immobilize enemies with Cephaliarch's Flail
• Minor Vulnerability and Minor Brittle with Rune of the Colorless Pool
• Minor Evasion from Circumvented Fate

Long story short, templar tanks have long needed quite a bit of TLC and will now need quite a bit more when update 41 nullifies a build with some very passionate fans.

You are not making a fair comparison of other classes. For example, you say maim from nova can be achieved by simply use ice staff taunt, then you word out concussion provide sorcer atronach ultimate. You fail to mention that nova can proc overcharged, and has powerful synrgy with crown control, and concussion from storm atronach can also ve easily achieved by using lightnibg wall of element or charged shock glyph. This is just 1 example of how you make it sound like templar is lack everything while other classes enjoy the luxury of no repeated/easily attained passive.

Is templar tank lack to support in its self? Yes. Does it name improvment? Yes. Is it bad? Depend on how you use it. For example, I set up my templar tank to use on 4 man dungeons and because it is able to do self and group heals, I usually use sets like moth to support my team and usual don't use healer in group. Most tanks classes are sets, you need major herosim, use a set. You need almost on demand major vunerability, use a set. Unamed buffs/debuffs, you a set....etc

Ok. I'll edit the OP and add the minute chance to apply 4 seconds of minor magicksteal from Nova. Every magicka skill equally brings that chance so it barely warrants mentioning. I noted Concussion because it's specifically referenced by the Summon Atro ult's tooltip as a guaranteed application, which is an improvement over the mere chance afforded by general lightning damage. Also, where did I say templar tank is bad? I'm scouring my original post for any hint of that sentiment and it's just not there. You're widely missing the point that the Templar tank's native toolkit lacks the utility or potency that other classes readily bring.

universal_wrath wrote: »

thepandalore wrote: »

Just wanted to leave some thoughts about Tormentor's evisceration here, specifically related to the Tankplar experience. The use of Tormentor to the exclusion of other sets on Templar tank is a direct consequence of the tankplar's glaring lack of utility in PVE content outside its synergistic behavior with Tormentor. The templar tank simply doesn't provide the buffs to group or debuffs to single targets that other classes' tanks are able to provide, relegating its utility squarely in the realm of basic crowd control by way of simple interruptions, stuns, and slows, sprinkled with a few buffs and a debuff which are all more easily sourced from other classes and roles, which also bringing more to the table. The above-board and un-secretive alignment of Explosive Charge's AOE direct damage, as plainly described in its tooltip, with Tormentor's proc condition, as plainly described in its tooltip, is a way to compensate for that lack of utility in groups where other roles are even minimally optimized. The tankplar has been deprecated by neglect, and as of update 41, targeted distaste. If you're sure about gutting Tormentor, the least that should also be done is a rework of the Templar class to bring its tanking toolkit up to speed with the others. The sorctank brings roughly the same number of named and unnamed buffs and debuffs as the tankplar, but outperforms the tankplar because of the quality of those effects. Just to spell it out, the templar toolkit brings a fraction of the buffs & debuffs to a group that other classes' toolkits can bring, and when compared to templar, other classes bring comparable buffs and much more to a group without going outside the class toolkit, which the templar must do to approach a minimum of the utility provided by those same classes.

These are the buffs and debuffs a naked templar tank could bring to a group.

• Minor Sorcery from Illuminate [can be granted by potions].
• Minor Endurance, Fortitude, and Intellect from Radiant Aura [these are all provided by Zenas Disc, and Zenas also provides Minor Courage].
• Major Maim from Nova [will automatically be provided by an ice staff's taunt].
• Major Defile from Dark Flare [if it's even needed, this can also be provided by a Warden's Corrupting Pollen, which also provides cowardice and heals allies]
• Stun, Interrupt, and Off Balance from Explosive Charge

A naked sorctank:

• Major Berserk from Summon Storm Atronach
• Concussion from Summon Storm Atronach
• Minor Intellect and Minor Endurance from Regenerative Ward
• Minor Prophecy from Exploitation
• Enemy AOE cancelation and group heals from Absorption Field
• Reduce target armor from Crystal Weapon

A naked warden tank:

• Major Projection and Chilled form Permafrost
• Major Resolve from Ice Fortress
• Chilled and Immobilize from Arctic Blast
• Increase Chilled chance from Glacial presence
• Enchanted Growth will grant Minor Endurance, Intellect, and also Minor Toughness with the Maturation passive
• Minor Lifesteal from Leeching Vines
• Major Defile and Minor Cowardice from Corrupting Pollen
• Off Balance from Dive
• Minor Breach from Deep Fissure
• Minor Vulnerability from Swarm
• Move an Enemy with Gate

A naked nightblade tank:

• Minor Vulnerability from Teleport Strike
• Major breach from Mark Target
• Minor Savagery from Hemorrhage
• Major Protection from Consuming Darkness
• Off Balance from Concealed Weapon]
• Major Expedition, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect from Refreshing Path
• Major Cowardice from Aspect of Terror
• Minor Maim from Summon Shade
• Major Vitality from Soul Siphon
• Minor Magicksteal from Debiitate

A naked DK tank

• Major Breach from Noxious Breath
• Taunt and Move with Unrelenting Grip
• AOE Minor Maim from Choking Talons
• Stun, Interrupt, and Off Balance from Deep Breath
• Stagger from Stone Giant
• Major Brutality and Major Sorcery from Igneous Weapons
• Damage Shield to allies from Igneous Shield
• Minor Brutality on Cast for group from Mountains Blessing

A naked Necro tank

• Off Balance from Ruinous Scythe
• Taunt and Move with Beckoning Armor
• Minor Protection from Agony Totem
• Minor vulnerability from Agony Totem
• Minor Maim from Empowering Grasp
• Empower to allies from Empowering Grasp
• Major Vulnerability from Frozen Colossus
• Major Defile from Blighted Blastbones
• Major Breach from Unnerving Boneyard

A naked Arctank

• Major Protection and up to 200 Weapon & Spell damage from Glyphic of the Tides
• Minor Heroism from Audacious Runemend
• Minor Courage, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, and Minor Endurance from Zenas Disc
• Move Enemies with Rune of Displacement
• Taunt and Minor Maim with Runic Jolt
• Taunt, Minor Maim, and 2200 Armor Reduction with Runic Sunder
• Taunt, Minor Maim, and Minor Lifesteal with Runic Embrace
• MInor Breach from Fatewoven Armor
• Minor Resolve from Runeguard of Still Waters
• Immobilize enemies with Runeguard of Still Waters
• Immobilize enemies with Cephaliarch's Flail
• Minor Vulnerability and Minor Brittle with Rune of the Colorless Pool
• Minor Evasion from Circumvented Fate

Long story short, templar tanks have long needed quite a bit of TLC and will now need quite a bit more when update 41 nullifies a build with some very passionate fans.

You are not making a fair comparison of other classes. For example, you say maim from nova can be achieved by simply use ice staff taunt, then you word out concussion provide sorcer atronach ultimate. You fail to mention that nova can proc overcharged, and has powerful synrgy with crown control, and concussion from storm atronach can also ve easily achieved by using lightnibg wall of element or charged shock glyph. This is just 1 example of how you make it sound like templar is lack everything while other classes enjoy the luxury of no repeated/easily attained passive.

This has absurdly high opportunity cost. You're gonna drop a 225 cost ulti and rely on a teammate synergy to CC mobs and grant a small chance of magickasteal? Shock glyph with wall and you give up crusher, which is almost never worth it in terms of damage, a sorc or warden can have both.

Billium813 wrote: »

> Tormentor nerf makes Templar Tank worse

That's very much not what I said, nor did I say Tormentor is the only thing that makes tankplars relevant. If you think the Templar tank's toolkit is relevant to some specific need, use it. Purge has been relevant to me once or twice, but there's a very strong argument that purge is better left to healers in a setting that favors optimization.

Billium813 wrote: »

AOE taunt was a utility?

Yes. That's why it's a great tank set.

Billium813 wrote: »

IMO, the only set that I think is crucial to Templar Tank is Void Bash

In the OP I very deliberately worded the scope of my feedback. Changing Tormentor has further exposed longstanding utility deficits afflicting tankplars that stem from the Templar's toolkit. Other classes natively set a baseline of CC, buff, and debuff utility that a tankplar simply cannot meet. Either we burn equipment slots on attempts at CC parity and forego critical group composition, by way of your Void Bash suggestion or a Tormentor build like mine for example, or we forego critical CC options and still fail to reach composition parity because Templar's tanking toolkit brings so few benefits to the table. Meanwhile, every other tank class brings a robust set of CCs, buffs, debuffs, and effects in addition to the support gear they wear. Also, I'm glad you brought up Void Bash. It's only (in your words) crucial because the class toolkit itself lacks functionality available to all the other classes. Each of Streak, Shattering Prison, Aspect of Terror and its morphs, Unrelenting Grip, Talons, Gripping Shards, Frozen Gate and one of its morphs, Beckoning Armor, Agony Totem, Ghostly Embrace, Rune of Displacement, and Rune of Uncanny Adoration directly apply or have a chance to apply some effect in addition to the crowd control. The closest skill natively available to my tankplar is an 8m single target knockback and/or stun that applies no additional effect. Void Bash is absolutely crucial, like you said. I'd also like to point out that the reasoning used to justify the change to Tormentor absolutely applies to Void Bash's interaction with Radiant Ward as well, considering that Dark Convergence and Rush of Agony did not exist when Void Bash was devised.

thepandalore wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

AOE taunt was a utility?

Yes. That's why it's a great tank set.

I'm sorry, but Tormentor is/was not a "great" tank set. It was cute and entirely unnecessary.

You're entire argument seems to be that Templar needs CC and more group utility buffs/debuffs. Sure. Ok. You can say that in a lot fewer words though. Tormentor has nothing to do with it. Using Tormentor as a pseudo CC is a waste of a 5 piece set.

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Just want to add, it’s funny hearing someone say that Tormentor is a waste of a 5 piece set, when running Void Bash is a waste of a 2 piece set by their very logic and that was their recommendation.

Either add pulls are worth running specific gear for or not? Lot of contradiction going on.

What argument did I use that would imply Void Bash is a waste of a 2 piece set? First, 2 piece is a lot easier to run then a 5 piece. Second, when did I say that Pulls aren't worth running? Tormentor doesn't pull, all it does is taunt. It's the taunt that's unnecessary and cute.

Billium813 wrote: »

I'm sorry, but Tormentor is/was not a "great" tank set. It was cute and entirely unnecessary.

It's a great tank set. Also, it allowed the Templar to compensate for the wide gaps in its kit.

Billium813 wrote: »

You're [sic] entire argument seems to be that Templar needs CC and more group utility buffs/debuffs.

Again, I very deliberately worded the scope of my feedback in the OP. I'll reiterate since the point somehow still hasn't been understood. The change to Tormentor exposes the utility deficits afflicting tankplars that stem from deficits the Templar toolkit. Other classes natively set a baseline of CC, buff, and debuff utility that a tankplar simply cannot reach. Either we burn equipment slots on attempts at CC parity with Void Bash or Tormentor and forego critical contributions to group composition, or we forego CC parity and still fail to reach composition parity because the Templar's tanking toolkit brings so few benefits to the table when compared to other classes.

Billium813 wrote: »

Sure. Ok. You can say that in a lot fewer words though.

No.

Billium813 wrote: »

Tormentor has nothing to do with it.

You're omitting the lede, which I guess I'll reiterate here again. Today's change to Tormentor highlights the utility deficits afflicting tankplars, which stem directly from deficits in the Templar toolkit. Other classes natively set a baseline of CC, buff, and debuff utility that a tankplar simply cannot reach without the use of compensating equipment. Either we burn a 5pc set on attempts at CC parity and forego important contributions to group composition, or we forego set-based crowd control options and still fail to reach composition parity because the Templar's kit brings so few benefits to the table when compared to other classes.

Billium813 wrote: »

Using Tormentor as a pseudo CC is a waste of a 5 piece set.

AOE taunt is a de facto, not psuedo, 15s AOE CC. Equipping it on a Templar was a compensating mechanism for Templar's wide kit gap. The AOE taunt's absence magnifies that gap. If using Tormentor as a CC device was a waste of a 5pc set, it's specifically because the Templar's tanking kit lags so far behind the other classes that Tankplars have been virtually required to seek out synergistic behaviors between sets and abilities, such as your Void Bash suggestion, to compensate for that lag.

The change to Tormentor specifically targets the strategy of squeezing extra utility out of the way that a specific set interacts with specific abilities, similar to how a necro wearing Nazaray can't extend its own Major Vulnerability debuff, and the way VB can quickly supercharge Radiant Ward. If that's the direction ZOS wants to go, fine; it's understandable to expect that sets and abilities should work independently of each other and not be used to magnify each other on the same player. It's equally important for ZOS to understand that one of the primary reasons Templar tanks, such as myself, have gravitated toward utilizing synergistic behaviors to our advantage is specifically to compensate for the lack of kit utility in critical areas of support-role play, namely buffs, debuffs, and crowd controls.

Another benefit of Tormentor's synergistic behavior with Explosive Charge is that it opens specific areas of gameplay which might otherwise be less accessible to autists like myself, and worse-off than myself, as well as others with other disabilities that affect dexterity or attention. To preempt you accusing me of forgetting the obvious motivations of laziness and memes, instances of lighthearted abuse like those aren't legitimate reasons to deprecate an entire playstyle without 1) addressing the Templar kit problems that in some ways created the problem or 2) providing players who have used it for accessibility reasons with an alternative.