Necromancer: class form feedback

OtarTheMad · February 20

Dekrypted wrote: »

I guess we follow up in 3 months?

Chapter is going to be more about Scribing and making sure those new spells are good. Whatever class changes they make will probably only get minor adjustments in following weeks.

Grim_Overlord · February 20

So I've been playing Necromancer since it came out with Elsweyr, however before that, I had only been playing for a few months. Back then, I hadn't gotten deep enough into the game to make use of Necromancer well and didn't truly engage with weaving and rotation and end-game gear until Harrowstorm. By then, Necromancer already felt, underwhelming, compared to the sorcerer I was using in the same basic gear.

My question is then what about Necromancer was powerful when it first came out beyond Major Vuln's initial value and the relative power of that debuff? I know Necro's were THE meta for the longest time, but I have never been able to figure out why as their damage, while great in aoe, has always been mediocre in single target and declined with every major update. Is there another change they made that I've forgotten amidst the wave upon wave of Necro-nerf?

CameraBeardThePirate · February 20

Grim_Overlord wrote: »

So I've been playing Necromancer since it came out with Elsweyr, however before that, I had only been playing for a few months. Back then, I hadn't gotten deep enough into the game to make use of Necromancer well and didn't truly engage with weaving and rotation and end-game gear until Harrowstorm. By then, Necromancer already felt, underwhelming, compared to the sorcerer I was using in the same basic gear.

My question is then what about Necromancer was powerful when it first came out beyond Major Vuln's initial value and the relative power of that debuff? I know Necro's were THE meta for the longest time, but I have never been able to figure out why as their damage, while great in aoe, has always been mediocre in single target and declined with every major update. Is there another change they made that I've forgotten amidst the wave upon wave of Necro-nerf?

Outside of Major Vulnerability being overtuned, Harmony being overtuned, and Bash Cro being broken at launch (no cooldown and 360° radius), nothing about Necro was powerful. Vulnerability and Harmony were incidental and not really directly related to Necro's kit.

In fact, people tend to forget that Necro's kit was so dysfunctional, they had to take the tethers off of the global cooldown for 6 months just to work on how corpses were targeted.

Once Vulnerability was brought in line alongside the overhaul to the Major/Minor system, there wasn't really anything propping up Necros in PvE besides their ease of access to elemental damage for EC.

Harmony needed a nerf, but ZOS decided to double nerf Graverobber for some reason, leaving it in a horrible spot - there's really no reason to use it as a self synergy any more, only as a group synergy.

On top of that, Arcanist/Archer were cut in half with the DoT nerfs in U35, despite not actually counting as DoTs, not being able to proc sets, and choosing their targets at random.

brandsnipe · February 20

Grim_Overlord wrote: »

So I've been playing Necromancer since it came out with Elsweyr, however before that, I had only been playing for a few months. Back then, I hadn't gotten deep enough into the game to make use of Necromancer well and didn't truly engage with weaving and rotation and end-game gear until Harrowstorm. By then, Necromancer already felt, underwhelming, compared to the sorcerer I was using in the same basic gear.

My question is then what about Necromancer was powerful when it first came out beyond Major Vuln's initial value and the relative power of that debuff? I know Necro's were THE meta for the longest time, but I have never been able to figure out why as their damage, while great in aoe, has always been mediocre in single target and declined with every major update. Is there another change they made that I've forgotten amidst the wave upon wave of Necro-nerf?

Magcro was always underwhelming, it had harmony with boneyard but thats it. But stamcro was SOOO OP at launch. On top of the stupid good tankiness and healing.. the class provided major and minor defile... when it was 30% and 15%. Some stamcro builds had a 45% healing debuff on targets with a near 100% uptime. Forget how OP arcanist is right now, stamcro at launch DEMOLISHES it.. if i saw a stamcro in BGs or cyrodiil, i ran lmao.

Grim_Overlord · February 20

brandsnipe wrote: »

Grim_Overlord wrote: »

So I've been playing Necromancer since it came out with Elsweyr, however before that, I had only been playing for a few months. Back then, I hadn't gotten deep enough into the game to make use of Necromancer well and didn't truly engage with weaving and rotation and end-game gear until Harrowstorm. By then, Necromancer already felt, underwhelming, compared to the sorcerer I was using in the same basic gear.

My question is then what about Necromancer was powerful when it first came out beyond Major Vuln's initial value and the relative power of that debuff? I know Necro's were THE meta for the longest time, but I have never been able to figure out why as their damage, while great in aoe, has always been mediocre in single target and declined with every major update. Is there another change they made that I've forgotten amidst the wave upon wave of Necro-nerf?

Magcro was always underwhelming, it had harmony with boneyard but thats it. But stamcro was SOOO OP at launch. On top of the stupid good tankiness and healing.. the class provided major and minor defile... when it was 30% and 15%. Some stamcro builds had a 45% healing debuff on targets with a near 100% uptime. Forget how OP arcanist is right now, stamcro at launch DEMOLISHES it.. if i saw a stamcro in BGs or cyrodiil, i ran lmao.

Thanks for the answer! I had a feeling it was the Major/Minor percentage changes that nuked Necromancer. Its interesting how much just a handful of percentages getting gutted gutted the class's potential in turn. Its so odd how much it leaned on that original 30% Vuln and Defile and how well those numbers hid the class's deficiencies at launch.

Aldoss · February 20

Item sets also propped up necro a lot. There were plenty of item dot sets in the game that came out totally OP that necro could inherently boost by 10% while also keeping some of the best tankiness in the game. CP changes hadn't gone through, so there was less damage in the game. Vigor + coil + mender was all that a stamcro needed and could triple stack dot sets to just obliterate people.

Maelstrom 2H + unleashed + any other dot set absolutely slapped people.

When the CP changes hit and damage scaling came into play, dot sets got hit hard, which (surprise, surprise) indirectly nerfed necro.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

On top of that, Arcanist/Archer were cut in half with the DoT nerfs in U35, despite not actually counting as DoTs, not being able to proc sets, and choosing their targets at random.

This was one of the most egregiously ignorant, frustrating changes still. They don't get buffed like dots, don't get buffed by necro passives, but still were brought in line to other class dots and had their dmg nerfed.

Necro was given nothing in return for this.

OtarTheMad · February 20

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Grim_Overlord wrote: »

So I've been playing Necromancer since it came out with Elsweyr, however before that, I had only been playing for a few months. Back then, I hadn't gotten deep enough into the game to make use of Necromancer well and didn't truly engage with weaving and rotation and end-game gear until Harrowstorm. By then, Necromancer already felt, underwhelming, compared to the sorcerer I was using in the same basic gear.

My question is then what about Necromancer was powerful when it first came out beyond Major Vuln's initial value and the relative power of that debuff? I know Necro's were THE meta for the longest time, but I have never been able to figure out why as their damage, while great in aoe, has always been mediocre in single target and declined with every major update. Is there another change they made that I've forgotten amidst the wave upon wave of Necro-nerf?

Outside of Major Vulnerability being overtuned, Harmony being overtuned, and Bash Cro being broken at launch (no cooldown and 360° radius), nothing about Necro was powerful. Vulnerability and Harmony were incidental and not really directly related to Necro's kit.

In fact, people tend to forget that Necro's kit was so dysfunctional, they had to take the tethers off of the global cooldown for 6 months just to work on how corpses were targeted.

Once Vulnerability was brought in line alongside the overhaul to the Major/Minor system, there wasn't really anything propping up Necros in PvE besides their ease of access to elemental damage for EC.

Harmony needed a nerf, but ZOS decided to double nerf Graverobber for some reason, leaving it in a horrible spot - there's really no reason to use it as a self synergy any more, only as a group synergy.

On top of that, Arcanist/Archer were cut in half with the DoT nerfs in U35, despite not actually counting as DoTs, not being able to proc sets, and choosing their targets at random.

Agree with this 100%. Players opinion got a little skewed because of Major Vulnerability and score pushers found it ideal for getting top scores.

ZOS always seems to make odd decisions with the Necromancer class.

Grim_Overlord · February 20

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

On top of that, Arcanist/Archer were cut in half with the DoT nerfs in U35, despite not actually counting as DoTs, not being able to proc sets, and choosing their targets at random.

Thanks for the run down! This quoted bit here is a change I am still wrapping my head around why it was done in the first place. The skills were always mediocre at best, but made up for with Undead Confederate. However, with sustain being less important, but still appreciated, in PVE, the damage nerf caused by this change makes even less sense.

CameraBeardThePirate · February 20

Grim_Overlord wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

On top of that, Arcanist/Archer were cut in half with the DoT nerfs in U35, despite not actually counting as DoTs, not being able to proc sets, and choosing their targets at random.

Thanks for the run down! This quoted bit here is a change I am still wrapping my head around why it was done in the first place. The skills were always mediocre at best, but made up for with Undead Confederate. However, with sustain being less important, but still appreciated, in PVE, the damage nerf caused by this change makes even less sense.

Those abilities, like many in Necro's kit, are just awful. They don't feel good to use at all, and it takes all of 10 minutes on the class to realize that.

There's literally a "Command Pet" keybind in the game, but for some inexcusable reason, ZOS decided to exempt all the Necromancer pets from this keybind.

You know what would make Blastbones feel better to use? If you could reset its targeting with the Command Pet keybind! You know what would make Archer and Arcanist feel more impactful? If you could tell them which enemy to target instead of picking "the closest" (which isn't even accurate - by all my testing it seems completely random).

Panderbander · February 21

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

I guess we follow up in 3 months?

Chapter is going to be more about Scribing and making sure those new spells are good. Whatever class changes they make will probably only get minor adjustments in following weeks.

The best way to make sure skills are good is to make sure other skills aren't!

katorga · February 21

On top of that, Arcanist/Archer were cut in half with the DoT nerfs in U35, despite not actually counting as DoTs, not being able to proc sets, and choosing their targets at random.

hahah. I forgot about that one. They are NOT dots why did they get the dot hammer?

Necrotech_Master · February 27

Dekrypted wrote: »

My heart breaks for all of the Necro mains. How many of you guys will persist after this patch hits live?

2 of my characters are necromancers, one of which is set up more as a tank which will likely be unaffected by the changes

the other is currently running some experimental builds for the archive, which might actually get buffed with the change to status effects (i might even take off one of the more experimental sets for deadly to boost the status effects even more lol, edit: if deadly can boost the dot status effects lol)

StarOfElyon · February 28

Dekrypted wrote: »

My heart breaks for all of the Necro mains. How many of you guys will persist after this patch hits live?

I honestly don't know why I'm even thinking about just accepting the nerf my cro is about to take while having all my suggestions for improvements be ignored. This game really doesn't deserve my time and money.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I'm making an updated version of my Necro ideas thread from 2023 (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/633137/suggestions-for-necromancer-changes). One thing that ZOS has been doing lately is making skills require less micromanagement and loading them with multiple functions:
Cephaliarch's Flail:
Infuse your arm with abyssal magic to form tentacles that lash out at your foes dealing 1939 Physical Damage, healing yourself for 969, and generating Crux. Enemies are immobilized for 3 seconds and marked with Abyssal Ink for 20 seconds. Deals up to 100% more damage to enemies with less than 50% Health. You deal 5% increased damage to enemies drenched in Abyssal Ink.

Tome-Bearer's Inspiration:
Etch a series of runes onto your weapon that pulse with power once every 5 seconds. Each pulse enhances your class abilities, and striking an enemy with one deals an additional 1161 Magic Damage and generates Crux if you have none. While slotted on either ability bar, gain Major Brutality and Major Sorcery, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20%.

The Necro needs this same treatment.

Blighted Blastbones: cost determined by the highest resource.
(I have mourned the loss of Stalking Blastbones and I have accepted that fact that I'm just going to have to change my Necro)

Death Scythe:
As I have seen suggested on the forums, both morphs of the Necro scythe should get execute scaling. I agree that this would be a great and very needed addition.
- Hungry Scythe: should also apply life steal to all enemies hit.

Skeletal Arcanist/Archer: grants major sorcery/brutality when slotted on either bar. Increase the damage that their attacks do.

Shocking Siphon: while slotted on either bar grants major prophecy/savagery and increases damage done by 3%. The AOE remains on the ground even if the tether breaks early.
- Mystic Siphon: the increased Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery persists even if the tether breaks early.
- Detonating Syphon: the damage AOE now sticks to you.

Flame Skull:
- Riccochet Skull/Venom Skull: applies burning/poisoned status effects. (Increase travel speed)

Spirit Mender: when active, applies minor cowardice to attackers.

Bone Totem: summons an effigy of bones up to 28 meters away. After 1 second, the totem begins fearing nearby enemies every 2 seconds, causing them to cower in place for 4 seconds. (Changed to allow both morphs to be targeted)
- Warding Totem: (Formerly Remote Totem) grants minor protection when standing in the area of effect.
- Agony Totem: afflicts enemies in the area of effect with minor vulnerability.

Restoring Tether: the effects persist on the player even if the tether breaks early.

Render Flesh:
- Blood Sacrifice: consumes a corpse to grant you Major Courage for 10 seconds.

Expunge: reduces the cost of all your abilities by 3% while slotted on either bar.

Bitter Harvest: when slotted on either bar, reduces your damage taken by 3%.

ULTIMATES:
Frozen Colossus: Unleash a decayed Flesh Colossus to pulverize enemies in the area. The Colossus smashes the ground three times over 3 seconds. Dealing damage applies Major Vulnerability to any enemy hit for 12 seconds.
- Glacial Colossus: does frost damage and stuns enemies on the second hit instead of the third.
- Pestilent Colossus: smashes the ground only once and does disease damage. Afflicts enemies with a pestilence that does damage over time.

Animate Blastbones: instead of resurrecting allies, this ultimate summons up to three blastbones to attack the nearest opponent. Summoned Blastbones are immune to being crowd controlled (other than by another ultimate). Reduce the cost of this ultimate to 200, down from 320, to make it more usable.

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