It’s abysmal how easy a normal trial is. I ran a normal DSR today as a tank - orbs collided at the first boss I think 7 times, the atronachs all enrage because there’s no point destroying the hearts (they do so little damage enraged it’s not even worth the mechanics), and the last boss can simultaneously be spinning AND whirlwinds passing through the group, with no one dying or being in danger or dying (one healer, first time ever running it).

Normal trials do not prepare anyone for veteran mode. There’s no stepping stone, like a “medium difficulty.” Nope, it’s pure hack and slash without knowing a single mechanic. It is most definitely not endgame content. It’s not even midgame content. A group of level 30’s could clear a normal trial without breaking a sweat. And trials are supposed to be THE endgame content. But the fact is the normal mode is light years away from being even marginally challenging.

Soarora wrote: »

oldbobdude wrote: »

My opinion is normals are end game for casuals. I’m sure min/maxers will consider their endgame vet trials and progression groups.

Endgame is not subjective person-to-person. What endgame communities they are in may differ but there is no “endgame trials for casuals”. There’s a reason why people tend to use “casual” and “endgamer” as opposites as opposed to “casual” and “hardcore” in ESO. Almost any casual can become an endgamer. That’s what happened to me. Overland questing with my 5pc lvl 45 livewire + trappings of invigoration now nearly 5 years later got 3 trial tris and every dungeon tri. It’s the same continuous spectrum for everyone regardless on where you’re on it.
Where the breaks are on the spectrum are debatable but it still wouldn’t differ person-to-person based on the definition of endgame, the continuous experience of moving through the game no matter where you started, and the fact that there’s no “endgame normal content” community— it’s just in social guilds as far as I know but even then there’s always vet and hm and trifecta above normal.

I believe it is very subjective. To some people furnishing is end game. People can decide what that means for themselves.

oldbobdude wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

oldbobdude wrote: »

My opinion is normals are end game for casuals. I’m sure min/maxers will consider their endgame vet trials and progression groups.

Endgame is not subjective person-to-person. What endgame communities they are in may differ but there is no “endgame trials for casuals”. There’s a reason why people tend to use “casual” and “endgamer” as opposites as opposed to “casual” and “hardcore” in ESO. Almost any casual can become an endgamer. That’s what happened to me. Overland questing with my 5pc lvl 45 livewire + trappings of invigoration now nearly 5 years later got 3 trial tris and every dungeon tri. It’s the same continuous spectrum for everyone regardless on where you’re on it.
Where the breaks are on the spectrum are debatable but it still wouldn’t differ person-to-person based on the definition of endgame, the continuous experience of moving through the game no matter where you started, and the fact that there’s no “endgame normal content” community— it’s just in social guilds as far as I know but even then there’s always vet and hm and trifecta above normal.

I believe it is very subjective. To some people furnishing is end game. People can decide what that means for themselves.

My point was that I believe there is no "endgame for x kind of player", we all belong on the same spectrums. We can choose our endgame communities when we get there (which yes, I believe housing has an endgame community) but no matter where we are in our gameplay, we are all on the same spectrums because we can change the kind of player we are as we move across the spectrum. So, for instance, what endgame trials is to an Emperor is the same as endgame trials for a Godslayer. They're both endgamers in their own right but the Emperor can't walk into the trial spectrum and say "well for PvPers the endgame for trials starts at normal" while the Godslayer says "if you're a group PvEr then trial endgame starts at hardmode". The Emperor might believe that endgame for trials as a whole starts at normal, but it doesn't make any sense to say it'd start at normal for specifically PvPers and no one else. After all, a PvPer might end up actually really liking trials and now they're doing trial trifectas. People have their personal limits but that doesn't make middle of the spectrum content endgame content, they might just never reach endgame. If they're happy that way, then so be it, but it doesn't make the content they do complete endgame because there's still content past that point.

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

One could argue that endgame is "the end of the game" which would solely be hardmode content as there is no difficulty level past hardmode.

I see endgame as the end of leveling. As others have mentioned, a lot of content can be considered endgame, such as PvP and trials and arenas, even crafting and housing. But it's classically repeatable group content.

Even then, you don't need to be at the end of leveling to do a normal trial or dungeon.

To be clear, and maybe this doesn't align exactly with what all I have said but these are (at least most of) the communities I believe have distinct communities built around high skill (no matter how big or small they are) and thus are endgame in their own right:

Solo tris and scorepushing (dungeons and arenas), dungeon hardmodes and above, trial hardmodes and above, housing (it requires a lot of money, achievements, etc. to get a good house), high MMR battlegrounds, skilled Cyro/Imp city PvP, and competitive ToT.
Honorable mention to guildmasters and people who mostly do guild trader shenanigans.

SilverBride wrote: »

I see endgame as the end of leveling.

The limitation of that criterion is that it defines endgame relative to the player's account and characters. The only activity I can think of that is inherently a part of leveling is collecting skyshards.

Nevertheless I think I do have an idea of what you're driving at. Defined relative to content that would be something like:

- repeatable and self-contained story wise
- requiring understanding of the game's core principles

I'd probably describe that as 'mid to late game'. I think endgame is a bit further down the road: the content that you ultimately gravitate towards. That will sustain you for years even if no new content is added to it. Which basically means adding another content criterion

- inexhaustible

Which IMHO excludes objectives pursued for the rewards, such as collecting gear or ticking achievement boxes. I mean, if you're just doing a trial or dungeon to complete them, or to collect gear from them (exhaustible), then once that is done you're not likely to return to that content. Unless you're there for some inexhaustible purpose like leader boards, it's not true endgame IMHO.

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Surprised even two people do tbh, no idea why that's even a poll.

I'm frankly surprised that so many don't consider them endgame. They may be entry level endgame but that still qualifies in my opinion.

not entry level endgame, not even midgame. Normal trials are casual content.

Edited to add: with a group of friends, we once removed all of our CP and did a naked run in normal Aetherian Archive with level 30 alts created just for fun. We killed the first boss with our fists because nobody had weapons yet. No particular level, skills, or even weapons needed. Normal DLC trials can be a little more challenging, but really, approachable even for the most casual of players at low levels with a raid leader to explain mechanics

Soarora wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't consider a normal trial as endgame just due to it being grouped. I consider it that because a normal trial is in the same place as a the veteran version and is still basically the same type of content, regardless of the different difficulties. In my mind if one trial is endgame, they all are.

If I may ask, if not difficulty, what criterion does make trials endgame?

What I said above. They are the same type of content as veteran trials, which many are saying is endgame. Same place, same story, just more a more difficult version.

Does the difficulty of a veteran dungeon mean that the normal isn't a dungeon any more? Or 4 man group content? And should have a completely separate classification category?

If normal dungeons are endgame, I've been an endgamer ever since I started, still wearing a heavy armor set on my dps, still thinking classes determined what role you can play, not even being cp 160. I did normal trials when I didn't understand what I was doing either. I was still a clueless casual, not an endgamer. I only became an endgamer once I truly built skill in my role (which was healer at that point, doing vet hardmode trials) and even then I didn't feel like one. I only felt like an endgamer once I started doing trifectas.
I'm not arguing that endgame is trifectas however I am arguing that normal content is just not endgame-- I not only didn't believe myself to be an endgamer when I was pre-vet, I didn't know what I was doing, at all.

I've been doing dungeons since the beginning. Fang lair might've been my first, I sure spent a lot of time in there (hence my pfp). To argue that normal content is endgame is to argue that endgame and casual are not mutually exclusive. Which they could not be in general but in the realm of ESO I have only ever heard them used to describe questers versus difficult pve players.

One could argue that endgame is "the end of the game" which would solely be hardmode content as there is no difficulty level past hardmode.

your right end game is definately not trifectas but i dont agree its vet trials either and im pretty sure if the other 11 people you were with in trial were as bad as you are making yourself out to be at that point the normal trial would have been a wipe and not a forced wipe to start it all again because 1 of 12 has died but a complete wipe

SilverBride wrote: »

MorganaBlue wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Surprised even two people do tbh, no idea why that's even a poll.

I'm frankly surprised that so many don't consider them endgame. They may be entry level endgame but that still qualifies in my opinion.

not entry level endgame, not even midgame. Normal trials are casual content.

I still don't see it that way because it's the same exact type of content.

Same type, but not the same exact content.
MGF for example, on normal one trash pull has one big add. Vet has two big adds. Normal, can burn through mechanics. Vet, have to do mechanics. HM has entirely new mechanics added on.
DSR, I basically solo tanked on normal. As someone else said, can ram bubbles into each other and ignore reef hearts. Vet, do have to do mechanics and I believe tanks have to swap bosses, which will never have to happen on normal because the mechanic doesn’t exist there. HM, entirely new mechanics added on.
So it’s not even always “its the same, but harder”, there’s differences in mechanics between the 3 difficulty modes.

Daoin wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't consider a normal trial as endgame just due to it being grouped. I consider it that because a normal trial is in the same place as a the veteran version and is still basically the same type of content, regardless of the different difficulties. In my mind if one trial is endgame, they all are.

If I may ask, if not difficulty, what criterion does make trials endgame?

What I said above. They are the same type of content as veteran trials, which many are saying is endgame. Same place, same story, just more a more difficult version.

Does the difficulty of a veteran dungeon mean that the normal isn't a dungeon any more? Or 4 man group content? And should have a completely separate classification category?

If normal dungeons are endgame, I've been an endgamer ever since I started, still wearing a heavy armor set on my dps, still thinking classes determined what role you can play, not even being cp 160. I did normal trials when I didn't understand what I was doing either. I was still a clueless casual, not an endgamer. I only became an endgamer once I truly built skill in my role (which was healer at that point, doing vet hardmode trials) and even then I didn't feel like one. I only felt like an endgamer once I started doing trifectas.
I'm not arguing that endgame is trifectas however I am arguing that normal content is just not endgame-- I not only didn't believe myself to be an endgamer when I was pre-vet, I didn't know what I was doing, at all.

I've been doing dungeons since the beginning. Fang lair might've been my first, I sure spent a lot of time in there (hence my pfp). To argue that normal content is endgame is to argue that endgame and casual are not mutually exclusive. Which they could not be in general but in the realm of ESO I have only ever heard them used to describe questers versus difficult pve players.

One could argue that endgame is "the end of the game" which would solely be hardmode content as there is no difficulty level past hardmode.

your right end game is definately not trifectas but i dont agree its vet trials either and im pretty sure if the other 11 people you were with in trial were as bad as you are making yourself out to be at that point the normal trial would have been a wipe and not a forced wipe to start it all again because 1 of 12 has died but a complete wipe

I don’t have many exact memories of that time but I can say that just because I found dungeons harder then, doesn’t mean it was my endgame. There was still more to achieve past normal and vet clears. I remember having to go werewolf mode in MHK during the white werewolf boss and fearing the wolves with my howl. I was just bad at the game, had I more DPS then it would’ve burnt to a crisp, as it does now. I think people are just stunting themselves by saying normal content is their endgame. I never thought I’d get a trial trifecta, never even thought I’d get the MoL skin. If I had said “normal is my endgame” and not tried, I’d have never gotten to where I am now.

I have talked with multiple folks in game who think normal trials are too hard for them. I tell them they should try an easier normal trial like Cloudrest or one of the Craglorn with a friendly group. I don't think normal trials are hard, but I'm not convinced that inexperienced players find them easy. I have seen inexperienced groups wipe in normal Dreadsail Reef. If endgame is something people do after learning to play the game, then trials are endgame.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I consider them about the middle of midgame, a stepping stone towards endgame but definitely not endgame. That said, normal trials just like normal dungeons have entirely different strategies and culture than veteran due to those who intend to full burn through normal in ways that wouldn’t even work for vet (like having 1 tank in DSR).

Sorry, but that is not valid. 2 bins is a reasonable division here, in the eyes of many players.

Of course many people at the top end do not see all of them as challenging, but they are not most of the population. They are an important group, just not the majority of players, almost by definition.

It very much is valid, for it is my opinion. You can believe midgame doesn't exist, I do, that's fair. None of us are going to come to a collective conclusion on what exactly endgame is, all we can do is discuss and see why others believe things to be a certain way. I highly doubt anyone's going to be changing their opinion.
I found content overall to be harder when I was newer, but that doesn't mean I was an endgamer and have gone backwards.

So, for those saying normal trials are end game, or referring to the idea that all content of a particular type is either end game or casual with no in between. You unlock Fungal Grotto 1 at level 10, definitely not end game, but a veteran version of Fungal Grotto 1 exist in the game, with a hard mode even, which would mean that the dungeon you accessed at level 10 is, also end game? Because a vet dungeon exists that uses the same map and enemies?

Throwing everything into two buckets leaves far too much being put where it doesn't belong. If casual is fishing, housing, and overland questing, then everything else is end game? A binary doesn't work for defining these things, because in pretty much any game with things to learn, there is a curve. A curve isn't made of 2 points, things build over time, from easier to harder. And there isn't "easy end game to hard end game," end game is the end that you reach when you progressed through the rest of the game, the part where you learn and grow. Using 'end' to defining literally everything beyond the most surface level basics only serves to make that word meaningless.

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

It’s abysmal how easy a normal trial is. I ran a normal DSR today as a tank - orbs collided at the first boss I think 7 times, the atronachs all enrage because there’s no point destroying the hearts (they do so little damage enraged it’s not even worth the mechanics), and the last boss can simultaneously be spinning AND whirlwinds passing through the group, with no one dying or being in danger or dying (one healer, first time ever running it).

Normal trials do not prepare anyone for veteran mode. There’s no stepping stone, like a “medium difficulty.” Nope, it’s pure hack and slash without knowing a single mechanic. It is most definitely not endgame content. It’s not even midgame content. A group of level 30’s could clear a normal trial without breaking a sweat. And trials are supposed to be THE endgame content. But the fact is the normal mode is light years away from being even marginally challenging.

It was easy because (it sounds like) you are a normal Trials (vet) player. Going down in content can be easy. Going up is not necessarily easy.

For me they are not end game content - not even the start of end game - because you don't need to worry about the composition of the group etc. It is an introduction into 12 man content. Having lead many trials and groups I think the intro into end game PvE starts at vet trials, this is the first point you start to have to ask for proper builds (but there is generally freedom to allow people to not have sets on simple vet trials) - and you still have the step up to things like HM, Speedruns, no deaths and trifectas to progress into.

The normals don't even really prepare you for vet content - I know when I've tried to use them for training I've had to ask teams to remove one set of armor when running so mechs could be seen - and this is with about half the group being totally new to trial content. Or i have had to force people to do mechs they don't need to do and other groups ignore on normal (like ice tombs or portal in SS, reefs in DSR, tank swap in CR etc etc)

For me, from the moment we need a special equipment/set up to be able to participate in an activity of a more difficult level, it's end game.

Trials need a player to have reached max level, to to know well combat technics and to be properly equipped.

Me, average PvE player, if I go into a trial the way I'm equipped now, I die within the first 5 minutes and don't make any steps farther than that. I would have to invest into armor and weapons of a higher quality/level, with a specific skills combo that I need to learn how to manage for this purpose. That's end game for me.