Making Heavy Attacks an alternative instead of competition with normal builds

Billium813 · April 2023

robpr wrote: »

Honestly, Oakensoul should just extend duration of any named buff gained by like 20-30s instead of giving dozen of buffs infinitely to incentivise group play instead of being seen as easy button. No food, unlimited sustain, no pots, no skills for common buffs like force, both single target and area damage with single click.

But that's my opinion, please don't eat me. I don't care what other people use as long as they won't drag other 11 people down.

Nope, there is no middle ground when it comes Oakensoul, you have to be tarred and feathered for remotely insinuating anything is wrong with it xD Obviously, you are just a 2 bar, LA weaving chad that wants to gatekeep content and maintain your 130k DPS leaderboard position.

THIS WAS SARCASM AND A JOKE. DONT BAN ME, PLZ.

DrNukenstein · April 2023

I'd like to see them make full heavy attacks an important part of a rotation.

Things like extending buffs, debuffs, dots, empowering or triggering after effects on certain skills.

It's satisfying to wind up a heavy and let it rip, and I think it would add a lot to immersion if the apex moment of a players rotation involved firing a full heavy. Then a "heavy attack build" would be one that loads up on enough heavy attack conditions for their constant heavy attacks to not be a significant DPS cost compared to a 4.5/5 light attack build

Billium813 · April 2023

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I'd like to see them make full heavy attacks an important part of a rotation.

Things like extending buffs, debuffs, dots, empowering or triggering after effects on certain skills.

It's satisfying to wind up a heavy and let it rip, and I think it would add a lot to immersion if the apex moment of a players rotation involved firing a full heavy. Then a "heavy attack build" would be one that loads up on enough heavy attack conditions for their constant heavy attacks to not be a significant DPS cost compared to a 4.5/5 light attack build

Sounds like a decent monster set, or a new 3 piece set.

I think it may be interesting if Empower didn't buff damage, which is rather boring and straightforward imo, but rather buffed effects on subsequent Skills. Something like the Two Handed Follow Up passive, but for any Skills damage, or durations, or ranges. That may be incredibly difficult to balance though... not sure, but it'd be more interesting then a flat damage buff

bachpain · April 2023

Why would anyone think how someone else plays is competition to them with how they play? That is the definition of narcissism. Again I liken this issue to the META of proc sets. Why aren't we crying to take away free damage from PROCS that we do nothing for? Make everything raw stat based and call me in the morning....

No, let's not. Let's maybe pretend that ESO is billed as PLAY AS YOU WANT TO PLAY, and let people HA, or LA weave, or No weave for that matter and play the game because it is no skin off my back. If people are able to do the content, why in the world should I care how they are doing it in ESO?

Billium813 · April 2023

bachpain wrote: »

Why would anyone think how someone else plays is competition to them with how they play? That is the definition of narcissism. Again I liken this issue to the META of proc sets. Why aren't we crying to take away free damage from PROCS that we do nothing for? Make everything raw stat based and call me in the morning....

No, let's not. Let's maybe pretend that ESO is billed as PLAY AS YOU WANT TO PLAY, and let people HA, or LA weave, or No weave for that matter and play the game because it is no skin off my back. If people are able to do the content, why in the world should I care how they are doing it in ESO?

Here, I created a new Mythic you may like! It looks really fun and awesome!

Shoop da Whoop
(1 item) Dealing damage grants you a stack of Lazer Focus for 20 seconds, up to 3 stacks max. You can only gain 1 stack of Lazer Focus per second. At 3 stacks, consume all stacks of Lazer Focus and after a 1 second delay, deal 1,000,000 Physical Damage to enemies in a line.

Auldwulfe · April 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

Why would anyone think how someone else plays is competition to them with how they play? That is the definition of narcissism. Again I liken this issue to the META of proc sets. Why aren't we crying to take away free damage from PROCS that we do nothing for? Make everything raw stat based and call me in the morning....

No, let's not. Let's maybe pretend that ESO is billed as PLAY AS YOU WANT TO PLAY, and let people HA, or LA weave, or No weave for that matter and play the game because it is no skin off my back. If people are able to do the content, why in the world should I care how they are doing it in ESO?

Here, I created a new Mythic you may like! It looks really fun and awesome!

Shoop da Whoop
(1 item) Dealing damage grants you a stack of Lazer Focus for 20 seconds, up to 3 stacks max. You can only gain 1 stack of Lazer Focus per second. At 3 stacks, consume all stacks of Lazer Focus and after a 1 second delay, deal 1,000,000 Physical Damage to enemies in a line.

You forgot the other part --- if blocked, it reflects back at the user, and they can either take the damage, or block .... if both sides block, it will continue bouncing back and forth, doing damage to anyone or anything that touches it.. until one or both parties run out of stamina, and then it explodes outward in a 60 meter radius, doing full damage.

Auldwulfe

PS. not sure WHY it formated this way....LOL

wolfie1.0. · April 2023

Should realize by now that anything that ZOS buffs in one patch, they will nerf it in the next.

danno8 · April 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Cute drawing... but that implies a non-HA build without good gear, and the HA build with the gear that supports it... because I have seen a LOT of other lines that would be on that one, too.....

In order to have the HA build that is so upsetting to people.. you have to have bought High Isle, and either DLC's or be a Plus subscriber... then, you have to grind the pieces, while also grinding the dungeons for the sets that enhance it... be Champion level, to wear it... .and have all the other parts right......

If that chart is to be accurate, and more than a crayon drawing... both start at the same point, and rise together, then HA goes up a little bit, and levels, while the 2 bar then continues up.... that would be accurate.

NO ONE has that at first, meaning that they are, at least, almost to the crossing point, before they get the items needed......

Auldwulfe

Thanks!

Perhaps "Skill Level" would have been a better x-axis label. The fact is that unless you are really good at LA weaving, bar swapping with very solid rotations and have trial level gear, a HA based build with similarly sourced sets (from low level dungeons, overland or crafted) and mythics as a LA build will just perform much better and be much easier to use.

For the middle game player a HA build is a no-brainer.

bachpain · April 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

Why would anyone think how someone else plays is competition to them with how they play? That is the definition of narcissism. Again I liken this issue to the META of proc sets. Why aren't we crying to take away free damage from PROCS that we do nothing for? Make everything raw stat based and call me in the morning....

No, let's not. Let's maybe pretend that ESO is billed as PLAY AS YOU WANT TO PLAY, and let people HA, or LA weave, or No weave for that matter and play the game because it is no skin off my back. If people are able to do the content, why in the world should I care how they are doing it in ESO?

Here, I created a new Mythic you may like! It looks really fun and awesome!

Shoop da Whoop
(1 item) Dealing damage grants you a stack of Lazer Focus for 20 seconds, up to 3 stacks max. You can only gain 1 stack of Lazer Focus per second. At 3 stacks, consume all stacks of Lazer Focus and after a 1 second delay, deal 1,000,000 Physical Damage to enemies in a line.

So you are telling me you don't use Reliquin, WoD, Pillar of Nirn, or any monster sets or Mythics? Unless that is the case then you are just bashing people who want to play differently. If you are a purist that uses nothing but stat sets then you have a leg to stand on, [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Billium813 · April 2023

bachpain wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

Why would anyone think how someone else plays is competition to them with how they play? That is the definition of narcissism. Again I liken this issue to the META of proc sets. Why aren't we crying to take away free damage from PROCS that we do nothing for? Make everything raw stat based and call me in the morning....

No, let's not. Let's maybe pretend that ESO is billed as PLAY AS YOU WANT TO PLAY, and let people HA, or LA weave, or No weave for that matter and play the game because it is no skin off my back. If people are able to do the content, why in the world should I care how they are doing it in ESO?

Here, I created a new Mythic you may like! It looks really fun and awesome!

Shoop da Whoop
(1 item) Dealing damage grants you a stack of Lazer Focus for 20 seconds, up to 3 stacks max. You can only gain 1 stack of Lazer Focus per second. At 3 stacks, consume all stacks of Lazer Focus and after a 1 second delay, deal 1,000,000 Physical Damage to enemies in a line.

So you are telling me you don't use Reliquin, WoD, Pillar of Nirn, or any monster sets or Mythics? Unless that is the case then you are just bashing people who want to play differently. If you are a purist that uses nothing but stat sets then you have a leg to stand on, [snip]

I'm not bashing people who want to play differently. Obviously, you aren't really reading my posts and instead are just making assumptions that follow your own narrative. If you actually read my posts, you would realize I want players to have have MORE options and choices. What you don't seem to understand is that someone can advocate for BALANCE and that doesn't mean they want to rip choices away from them; in fact it's quite the opposite. I don't like any sets that are obvious, "Best in Slot" choices. At any competence level. For all classes. Period. So, stop erecting a Strawman argument by making assumptions and not reading.

Not that it matters even in the slightest... but no, I don't use any of those meta sets. But even if I did, that really isn't the point. I wouldn't slight a player for using any of those sets as long as there are REASONABLE ALTERNATIVES for them! You can list like 4-5 BIS sets, but does that include Stam vs Mag? Are they the same BIS sets for all classes? PvP and PvE? What is the difficulty level of using those sets? I can go put on Reliquin and PoN and still do sh*t DPS. Are they still too strong? Probably, but that isn't really an argument I'm making here. I'd be fine with nerfing any one of them if they become too obviously BIS.

I suggested that obviously OP mythic to prove a point. It seems so common for players to throw around this "just let players play however they want, they ain't hurtin no one!" argument. But that argument is so hypocritical and opinionated. I seriously doubt you would be ok with joining a group where everyone had Shoop da Whoop as Mythics. Can you answer why that is? Why would you be against Shoop da Whoop? Balance is important. It isn't gatekeeping, it's about creating a fair, multiplayer environment where everyone can have fun. Everyone! Obviously OP items have no place in these environments. If you want those items, go install Skyrim and get a mod. Enjoy it for 10 minutes before it becomes boring and dull.

Having an overwhelming power is boring as hell
- Saitama

Since you asked, not that it remotely matters, my main:

Bosmer Stamplar

Head - Med - Stormfist
Shoulder - Med - Stormfist
Chest- Med - Deadly Strike
Arms - Light - Dark Convergence
Belt - Light - Dark Convergence
Legs - Med - Deadly Strike
Boots - Med - Deadly Strike
Necklace - Bloodthirsty - Dark Convergence
Ring - Bloodthirsty - Dark Convergence
Ring - Bloodthirsty - Death Dealer's Fete
Weapon 1 - Two Handed - Deadly Strike
Weapon 2 - Bow - Dark Convergence

danno8 · April 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

Why would anyone think how someone else plays is competition to them with how they play? That is the definition of narcissism. Again I liken this issue to the META of proc sets. Why aren't we crying to take away free damage from PROCS that we do nothing for? Make everything raw stat based and call me in the morning....

No, let's not. Let's maybe pretend that ESO is billed as PLAY AS YOU WANT TO PLAY, and let people HA, or LA weave, or No weave for that matter and play the game because it is no skin off my back. If people are able to do the content, why in the world should I care how they are doing it in ESO?

Here, I created a new Mythic you may like! It looks really fun and awesome!

Shoop da Whoop
(1 item) Dealing damage grants you a stack of Lazer Focus for 20 seconds, up to 3 stacks max. You can only gain 1 stack of Lazer Focus per second. At 3 stacks, consume all stacks of Lazer Focus and after a 1 second delay, deal 1,000,000 Physical Damage to enemies in a line.

So you are telling me you don't use Reliquin, WoD, Pillar of Nirn, or any monster sets or Mythics? Unless that is the case then you are just bashing people who want to play differently. If you are a purist that uses nothing but stat sets then you have a leg to stand on, [snip]

Having an overwhelming power is boring as hell
- Saitama

Since you asked, not that it remotely matters, my main:
Bosmer Stamplar

Head - Med - Stormfist
Shoulder - Med - Stormfist
Chest- Med - Deadly Strike
Arms - Light - Dark Convergence
Belt - Light - Dark Convergence
Legs - Med - Deadly Strike
Boots - Med - Deadly Strike
Necklace - Bloodthirsty - Dark Convergence
Ring - Bloodthirsty - Dark Convergence
Ring - Bloodthirsty - Death Dealer's Fete
Weapon 1 - Two Handed - Deadly Strike
Weapon 2 - Bow - Dark Convergence

Hmm has anyone told you you could do better with a HA build? :P

Billium813 · April 2023

danno8 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

Why would anyone think how someone else plays is competition to them with how they play? That is the definition of narcissism. Again I liken this issue to the META of proc sets. Why aren't we crying to take away free damage from PROCS that we do nothing for? Make everything raw stat based and call me in the morning....

No, let's not. Let's maybe pretend that ESO is billed as PLAY AS YOU WANT TO PLAY, and let people HA, or LA weave, or No weave for that matter and play the game because it is no skin off my back. If people are able to do the content, why in the world should I care how they are doing it in ESO?

Here, I created a new Mythic you may like! It looks really fun and awesome!

Shoop da Whoop
(1 item) Dealing damage grants you a stack of Lazer Focus for 20 seconds, up to 3 stacks max. You can only gain 1 stack of Lazer Focus per second. At 3 stacks, consume all stacks of Lazer Focus and after a 1 second delay, deal 1,000,000 Physical Damage to enemies in a line.

So you are telling me you don't use Reliquin, WoD, Pillar of Nirn, or any monster sets or Mythics? Unless that is the case then you are just bashing people who want to play differently. If you are a purist that uses nothing but stat sets then you have a leg to stand on, [snip]

Having an overwhelming power is boring as hell
- Saitama

Since you asked, not that it remotely matters, my main:
Bosmer Stamplar

Head - Med - Stormfist
Shoulder - Med - Stormfist
Chest- Med - Deadly Strike
Arms - Light - Dark Convergence
Belt - Light - Dark Convergence
Legs - Med - Deadly Strike
Boots - Med - Deadly Strike
Necklace - Bloodthirsty - Dark Convergence
Ring - Bloodthirsty - Dark Convergence
Ring - Bloodthirsty - Death Dealer's Fete
Weapon 1 - Two Handed - Deadly Strike
Weapon 2 - Bow - Dark Convergence

Hmm has anyone told you you could do better with a HA build? :P

Lol, all the time.

I primarily run Vet HM dungeons and average about 55-60k DPS. It's a really fun build IMO. With a little bit of strat, DC is really fun and procs off Shards. The pen is really nice too. The only downside is the Max Mag. I'm not good with LA weaving, so sets like Relequin don't work for me. I tried Pillar of Nirn, but I run so many DOTs, and use Jabs, that I think Deadly Strikes does more for me.

squinquargesimus · April 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

If you want those items, go install Skyrim and get a mod. Enjoy it for 10 minutes before it becomes boring and dull.

Jokes on you, I never get tired of being OP in Skyrim

That aside though, I do agree with your overall point. What the game really needs is more unique playstyles, both for 2 bar and for 1 bar builds. In that regard Oakensoul is still pretty helpful! I've been trying out things for my Templar on PTS, and one bar Pillar + Deadly with Oakensoul and Slimecraw got me to 71K (though I was also using Barbed Trap which I don't super like and would likely get replaced with Breath of Life for actual content).

That being said, I do think some of the anti HA sentiments can get... way, way out of proportion. Talked with a guy on Reddit, for example, who got death threats for expressing his fondness for the build and the accessibility it brings. I think that kind of stuff might be what is making people do defensive of Oakensorc, and Oaken HA in general.

bachpain · April 2023

The point I am trying to make is your Shwoop De woop isn't what we are talking about. It is an alternative playstyle that accomplishes exactly what you are claiming to want DIVERSITY. A different style of play that does good DPS easily and less than can be accomplished traditionally. So I ask, what is the problem if Joe average comes in to one of your dungeons and does exactly the same DPS or slightly more than you with a HA build? My main is a healer wearing Powerful Assault, Spell Power Cure, and Monster set depends on situation. I don't make DDs fill out a form for what gear and style of play they use when I accept a que. I just play the game.

Of course everyone would agree with you on schwoop de woop. Thus why it is the straw man. We aren't talking about a nuke. We are talking about diversity. It is just diversity that some don't like.

Billium813 · April 2023

bachpain wrote: »

The point I am trying to make is your Shwoop De woop isn't what we are talking about. It is an alternative playstyle that accomplishes exactly what you are claiming to want DIVERSITY. A different style of play that does good DPS easily and less than can be accomplished traditionally. So I ask, what is the problem if Joe average comes in to one of your dungeons and does exactly the same DPS or slightly more than you with a HA build? My main is a healer wearing Powerful Assault, Spell Power Cure, and Monster set depends on situation. I don't make DDs fill out a form for what gear and style of play they use when I accept a que. I just play the game.

Of course everyone would agree with you on schwoop de woop. Thus why it is the straw man. We aren't talking about a nuke. We are talking about diversity. It is just diversity that some don't like.

Now, I don't want to pigeon-hole you and your position, but you did say

bachpain wrote: »

Let's maybe pretend that ESO is billed as PLAY AS YOU WANT TO PLAY, and let people HA, or LA weave, or No weave for that matter and play the game because it is no skin off my back. If people are able to do the content, why in the world should I care how they are doing it in ESO?

> If people are able to do the content, why in the world should I care how they are doing it in ESO?

All I did was try to take the core of what it seemed like you were trying to say, and blew it up with an appeal to extremes in order to make it sound unreasonable. Which it is.

See, I hear this "let players play how they want" argument all the time, and it is often used against me and my posts too. I don't want to eliminate HA builds; that is most certainly NOT my intention here or in any posts I've made. There seems to be some weird misunderstanding that nerfs == gatekeeping or eliminating builds. Balancing damage is not meant to eliminate builds. If players are chasing the BIS builds, and something gets nerfed so now they don't WANT to use it, that's their issue. They are choosing not to use it. That doesn't mean it isn't still VIABLE, it just means it isn't BIS anymore! And those min/max players can move along.

I don't want the HA build game play to be eliminated! I just want there to be viable options in the mid-field and I think competition amongst different HA builds would be healthy, instead of the extremely narrow place HA builds are now: You have to run Lightning Staff and you have to run Sergeant's Mail. Period.

> So I ask, what is the problem if Joe average comes in to one of your dungeons and does exactly the same DPS or slightly more than you with a HA build?

First off, you're minimizing. If they were doing the same damage, this wouldn't be a problem. If they were doing the same damage, then that would mean players have viable choices. But that isn't the case at all. Lightning Staff HA builds aren't just doing the "exactly same DPS", or even "slightly more". They are head and shoulders the best mid-level build. Period. This is not open to debate.

And that subtle point, about being the best MID LEVEL build, is another place people keep getting stuck on. Just because 2 bar, LA weaving sets can get higher DPS than HA builds, doesn't mean anything. Most players can't get up that high anyway, so the point is totally moot. IK you didn't make that point, but it's often used in combination with the point you were trying to make: that players should just stop caring and let everyone "PLAY AS THEY WANT TO PLAY".

bachpain · April 2023

The points I am addressing with this discussion is what you quoted of mine and addressed me specifically.

In a 4 man dungeon if you are doing 55-60K DPS IN CONTENT as you have said a HA sorc isn't going to be doing a whole lot more. That is factual in a 4 man dungeon. We aren't talking a parse on a trial dummy here, you said the numbers and the situation. And the numbers I have seen from HA sorcs/templars ect average around the 55-60k DPS in a 4 man dungeon. So maybe, the extreme isn't as extreme as you think. Sure on some add pulls you see higher for brief moments. But my NB traditional build in trash pulls sees upwards of 250k to 300k. But it is all relative as that only works for brief light trash mobs with a lot of mobs. HA sorcs never get an attack off. On my Templar wearing PoN and deadly with the maelstrom 2H as a backbar in add pulls I see way more DPS than a HA build even after the templar nerfs. I have tried both types of builds, HA builds are boring, and do less DPS, but are strong and effective. You can do good dps easily. Why is that a bad thing?

Just because people don't want to optimize traditional builds doesn't mean HA builds are extreme. Are they strong? YES have the latest nerfs been in line with balance? MAYBE. I can't tell personally because the PTS is so buggy. Do they need further tuning? Maybe I don't know. But this comparing them to such extremes is just dumb, HA builds aren't the be all end all doing 100k DPS all day, every day holding mouse 1. That doesn't exist. Sure you can get 60k on a trial dummy that way, maybe 75k with everything all optimized if all you do is hold mouse 1 and have sorc pets doing damage. But that is just a trial dummy. In content it is different. That drops off significantly in content.

Now are there guys out there that can consistently get the most DPS out of HA builds in content for the hardest content in the game, yeah. They probably have already with traditional builds too. They aren't the average HA lover that is the enjoyer of these sets. You know what these sets and builds have done for me? They have given me opportunities to play ESO with my boys who play a million different games and will never spend a lot of time on ESO. But with a HA build they will hop on and do vet pledges with their old man or hop into some Craglorn trials with me when they log in once a week. They can concentrate on the camaraderie and fun we're having as well as mechanics without having to memorize rotations and stare at timers and do enough DPS to clear vet DLC dungeons.

And the idea of letting players play the way they want within a system that doesn't include extremes like your shwoop de woop isn't hypocritical and opinionated. It is the stated way that ESO is supposed to be played. For people to demand that everyone do the same number of keystrokes and mouse actions for their DPS in ESO to me is what is hypocritical and opinionated.

Lavennin · April 2023

There’s direct competition between 2-bar and HA outside of trials, and there are players that find HA boring but feel compelled to use it because of the content they are trying to clear.

That being said, the nerf looks ok as is. Maybe I can finally find a dungeon trifecta group that’s willing to take in my 2-bar build that hits harder but dies easily. Maybe there won’t be so many 1 tank 3 HA groups. Any more nerf and it might affect casual player enjoyment. Plus we have enough controversy as is, let’s just have this issue settled.

Kusto · April 2023

Lavennin wrote: »

There’s direct competition between 2-bar and HA outside of trials, and there are players that find HA boring but feel compelled to use it because of the content they are trying to clear.

That being said, the nerf looks ok as is. Maybe I can finally find a dungeon trifecta group that’s willing to take in my 2-bar build that hits harder but dies easily. Maybe there won’t be so many 1 tank 3 HA groups. Any more nerf and it might affect casual player enjoyment. Plus we have enough controversy as is, let’s just have this issue settled.

The nerf is not ok, it's not enough. Loosing 5k dps is not gonna change anything. Its still OP af. If it was nerfed 50% it would still be good enough for vet non hm content.

Jammy420 · April 2023

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

I am taking the server off-time of ESO on EU as a way of writing this post about the - currently - nerfed Heavy Attack Builds and I really wish that people would read the entire post before making a statement as I and some others put some long thinking into it.

Zenimax Online and Microsoft Games are both companies which recently have published alot of stuff regarding a wider accessibility to their games. In ESO itself that means adding colour settings, menu settings and even a text reader for people. However the core component that was left out was the gameplay itself. Players which handicaps are not able to play the whole game with a regular build, some people struggle to get even 40k dps and are unable to participate in trials and solo arenas and are excluded from groups.

This is why I think that the Sergeants Mail and Storm Master set combo was a blessing. It enabled players to easily participate in veteran contents and was easy enough to focus on the raid mechanics more. If you are playing a regular build paying attention to mechanics without addons is really difficult especially if handicapped. I honestly thought ZOS would call it nice and even since the damage in single-targeted fights was still off compared to high-end veteran raiders.

When the HA builds came into the game it was first accepted as a nice alternative to the regular playstyle. This changed however when a few people hated the idea that another build could come close to the damage they were making with a proper build. It also annoyed people who are selling carry-runs in Zone Chat to make coins. ESO influencers on YT and Twitch propagated the opinion that no single-bar build should come close to the damage a "proper build" should do. Which is nonsense since the build was still lacking compared to the so-called "proper builds".

First of all I absolutely support the idea that the Heavy Attack sets should not affect damage towards players. The current nerf to Storm Master's duration and cooldowns is too much and cripples the dps on most Heavy Attack Builds, while it might still be manageable on the Sorcerer with its long ability cooldowns. Deltias Gaming has made a test on Sorc where the nerf was shown as neglible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqrFxFCQbak

Classes with shorter cooldowns such as Templar or Warden have a harder time maintaining the Storm Master buff. A sorcerer HA build could deal 100k on Live and goes at around 90k on PTS, which is fine. A templar build i tested goes down from 97k to 79k dps. And the maximum DPS obtainable with dual bar builds on each class on ESO logs is much higher (137k dps on Sorc and 127k on Templar). The HA builds were like 1/4 lower and will be 1/3 lower in the future than "proper builds" on single target dps. Where it shines though is in trash groups as the Trifocus passive causes it to cleave at 100%.

The Storm Master nerf towards players should stay in as it is. However the cooldown should be more forgiving. Instead of having 8s/5s like on current PTS it should be at least 12s/5s to make sure you can keep it up at a 100% up-time easier on proper critical builds. I would however adjust one more thing: Trifocus passive. Right now the Trifocus causes Heavy Attack builds to be a single-targeted and trash build at the same time. It causes Lightning Attacks to cleave for 100%. That value should go down, perhaps even to like 33% so it is still there but not overtuned.

In ESO there is a plethora of sets, but like 90% of them are unused because the meta focusses only on the most useful ones. Two-bar builds run Relequen, Whorl of Depths, Deadly Strikes, etc. There are sets that even emphasize on Heavy Attack usage but due to their stats being very poor they are hardly used. Any change done to them would hardly impact the dual-bar players with their light attack weaving since HA are hardly used in those groups. But it could benefit Heavy Attack focussed groups alot if changed properly.

Let me ask you a question: If a group wishes to form with focus heavily on Heavy Attacks and equipping builds to support that to make "their own way" in ESO without affecting the dual bar meta at all, is that a bad thing? Instead of having one meta we could have even two playstyle approaches.

Already established Heavy-Attack Compatible Sets:
Roaring Opportunist + Jorvuld (slayer buff on completing Heavy Attacks)

Stone Speaker (restore resources on Heavy Attacks)

Pearlescent Ward (since it is a unique buff)

Altered sets that could benefit HA groups without affecting regular groups.
Destructive Magician: This set places bombs on targets which can only be procced by another person also Heavy attacking. If upping the damage a bit it could serve as a support dps set such as Alkosh/Z'en in normal groups would do.

Draugr's Rest: Who says Healers cannot Heavy Attack? The restoration staff even has a bonus on heavy attacking which increases healing done briefly and also heals for a % of the damage done. It can even be paired with the healing hands of the Psijic Order.

Explosive Rebuke: Since most Heavy Attack builds tend to use the Oakensoul Ring due to the Empowered buff the tank can easily swap out Yolnakriin and has access to another set. This set places bombs on enemies if blocking. It can support group dps if the group focusses their dps on the proper targets.

Rage of the Ursauk: Just a set to show that even without Oakensoul Ring one DD in the group can give Empowered to everyone easily.

Stone Husk, Maarselok and Spawn of Mephala: Those monster sets trigger on completed Heavy Attacks and are hardly used since the overall dps is considered too low in regular groups since you need to give up light attack weaving. In this scenario though, they could help.

Let's sum it up. Heavy Attack builds are not necessarily an evil in ESO. It is a chance to make the combat system more widespread and allowing less experienced players to participate in content. It also serves as an alternative to players who physically cannot go down the “normal” path in ESO. And since ZOS still says their slogan “Play like you want” in ESO, I feel this should persist.

Now tell me your opinion. I am happy for constructive feedback.

While i appreciate the effort put in, this is exactly my problem with heavy attack builds. They dont require near the effort, and are just as effective as a complicated practiced build. Then add lag into it for example in pvp, and the heavy attack builds has a massive advantage.

Greystag · April 2023

I'm not sure if it has been brought up, but the resurgence of HA builds has, in my mind, highlighted a huge issue that is not combat related:
Animations. ESO's animations are so stiff and janky. On HAs for example, it's always the same animation, and it feels really stiff. Making it so that it alternates animations (such as swinging from right to left with melee weapons) would make HA builds much more appealing in my eyes.

Kesstryl · April 2023

Kusto wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

There’s direct competition between 2-bar and HA outside of trials, and there are players that find HA boring but feel compelled to use it because of the content they are trying to clear.

That being said, the nerf looks ok as is. Maybe I can finally find a dungeon trifecta group that’s willing to take in my 2-bar build that hits harder but dies easily. Maybe there won’t be so many 1 tank 3 HA groups. Any more nerf and it might affect casual player enjoyment. Plus we have enough controversy as is, let’s just have this issue settled.

The nerf is not ok, it's not enough. Loosing 5k dps is not gonna change anything. Its still OP af. If it was nerfed 50% it would still be good enough for vet non hm content.

But who would be willing to take them if sweaty hand builds do 50% more DPS?

Rkindaleft · April 2023

Soarora wrote: »

I’m of the firm belief that first-off, theres buffs that need to be removed from Oakensoul, such as minor aegis, because they give too much survivability for a DPS to have. Secondly, empower should be added to a different mythic or global skill, whether or not it should be then removed from oakensoul I’m unsure about, but this is so that 2-bar HA is more feasible. Thirdly, the damage ceiling should not be so high on the build unless it is made more difficult (such as making HA squishier than a traditional build so one needs to time their HAs so they can block). I’d say 75k maximum, enough for veteran trials but not so high that its stepping in the toes of traditional builds. If 75k is the ceiling then I think the 100% cleave may be fine, would have to see in practice. After all, ease of use and the high cleave are the shining points of the build.

Edit: in other words, I think it’s fine that people with HA builds, be them casuals or otherwise, are able to see veteran content and get their monster helmets and perfected gear. People with HA builds should not be completing HM and trifecta content, however, not unless there is a new HA build that matches the difficulty of a traditional build that then can be called an endgame HA build (which it would be cool in this situation that endgame HA builds require endgame HA teams with things like necro empowering grasp and such, but not necessary).

I agree. If they just removed some of the resistance buffs that the ring provided instead if nerfing Empower I would've thought that'd been a totally acceptable nerf as well, in a way. Running around with 90k DPS, 30k health and 25k resists - which is much closer to that of actual tank resists compared to the resists of a LA build... - is too much for how easy the build is to play. There's a reason why nearly every player in mid-endgame has one of these builds now.

PrincessOfThieves · April 2023

Kesstryl wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

There’s direct competition between 2-bar and HA outside of trials, and there are players that find HA boring but feel compelled to use it because of the content they are trying to clear.

That being said, the nerf looks ok as is. Maybe I can finally find a dungeon trifecta group that’s willing to take in my 2-bar build that hits harder but dies easily. Maybe there won’t be so many 1 tank 3 HA groups. Any more nerf and it might affect casual player enjoyment. Plus we have enough controversy as is, let’s just have this issue settled.

The nerf is not ok, it's not enough. Loosing 5k dps is not gonna change anything. Its still OP af. If it was nerfed 50% it would still be good enough for vet non hm content.

But who would be willing to take them if sweaty hand builds do 50% more DPS?

Sweaty builds only do super high dps after hundreds of hours of practice and only with good enough manual dexterity and internet connection. Most people only do 50-60-70k by copying these builds.