Making Heavy Attacks an alternative instead of competition with normal builds

TheDarkRuler

I am taking the server off-time of ESO on EU as a way of writing this post about the - currently - nerfed Heavy Attack Builds and I really wish that people would read the entire post before making a statement as I and some others put some long thinking into it.


Zenimax Online and Microsoft Games are both companies which recently have published alot of stuff regarding a wider accessibility to their games. In ESO itself that means adding colour settings, menu settings and even a text reader for people. However the core component that was left out was the gameplay itself. Players which handicaps are not able to play the whole game with a regular build, some people struggle to get even 40k dps and are unable to participate in trials and solo arenas and are excluded from groups.

This is why I think that the Sergeants Mail and Storm Master set combo was a blessing. It enabled players to easily participate in veteran contents and was easy enough to focus on the raid mechanics more. If you are playing a regular build paying attention to mechanics without addons is really difficult especially if handicapped. I honestly thought ZOS would call it nice and even since the damage in single-targeted fights was still off compared to high-end veteran raiders.


When the HA builds came into the game it was first accepted as a nice alternative to the regular playstyle. This changed however when a few people hated the idea that another build could come close to the damage they were making with a proper build. It also annoyed people who are selling carry-runs in Zone Chat to make coins. ESO influencers on YT and Twitch propagated the opinion that no single-bar build should come close to the damage a "proper build" should do. Which is nonsense since the build was still lacking compared to the so-called "proper builds".


First of all I absolutely support the idea that the Heavy Attack sets should not affect damage towards players. The current nerf to Storm Master's duration and cooldowns is too much and cripples the dps on most Heavy Attack Builds, while it might still be manageable on the Sorcerer with its long ability cooldowns. Deltias Gaming has made a test on Sorc where the nerf was shown as neglible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqrFxFCQbak

Classes with shorter cooldowns such as Templar or Warden have a harder time maintaining the Storm Master buff. A sorcerer HA build could deal 100k on Live and goes at around 90k on PTS, which is fine. A templar build i tested goes down from 97k to 79k dps. And the maximum DPS obtainable with dual bar builds on each class on ESO logs is much higher (137k dps on Sorc and 127k on Templar). The HA builds were like 1/4 lower and will be 1/3 lower in the future than "proper builds" on single target dps. Where it shines though is in trash groups as the Trifocus passive causes it to cleave at 100%.


The Storm Master nerf towards players should stay in as it is. However the cooldown should be more forgiving. Instead of having 8s/5s like on current PTS it should be at least 12s/5s to make sure you can keep it up at a 100% up-time easier on proper critical builds. I would however adjust one more thing: Trifocus passive. Right now the Trifocus causes Heavy Attack builds to be a single-targeted and trash build at the same time. It causes Lightning Attacks to cleave for 100%. That value should go down, perhaps even to like 33% so it is still there but not overtuned.


In ESO there is a plethora of sets, but like 90% of them are unused because the meta focusses only on the most useful ones. Two-bar builds run Relequen, Whorl of Depths, Deadly Strikes, etc. There are sets that even emphasize on Heavy Attack usage but due to their stats being very poor they are hardly used. Any change done to them would hardly impact the dual-bar players with their light attack weaving since HA are hardly used in those groups. But it could benefit Heavy Attack focussed groups alot if changed properly.

Let me ask you a question: If a group wishes to form with focus heavily on Heavy Attacks and equipping builds to support that to make "their own way" in ESO without affecting the dual bar meta at all, is that a bad thing? Instead of having one meta we could have even two playstyle approaches.

Already established Heavy-Attack Compatible Sets:

• Roaring Opportunist + Jorvuld (slayer buff on completing Heavy Attacks)
• Stone Speaker (restore resources on Heavy Attacks)
• Pearlescent Ward (since it is a unique buff)

Altered sets that could benefit HA groups without affecting regular groups.

• Destructive Magician: This set places bombs on targets which can only be procced by another person also Heavy attacking. If upping the damage a bit it could serve as a support dps set such as Alkosh/Z'en in normal groups would do.
• Draugr's Rest: Who says Healers cannot Heavy Attack? The restoration staff even has a bonus on heavy attacking which increases healing done briefly and also heals for a % of the damage done. It can even be paired with the healing hands of the Psijic Order.
• Explosive Rebuke: Since most Heavy Attack builds tend to use the Oakensoul Ring due to the Empowered buff the tank can easily swap out Yolnakriin and has access to another set. This set places bombs on enemies if blocking. It can support group dps if the group focusses their dps on the proper targets.
• Rage of the Ursauk: Just a set to show that even without Oakensoul Ring one DD in the group can give Empowered to everyone easily.
• Stone Husk, Maarselok and Spawn of Mephala: Those monster sets trigger on completed Heavy Attacks and are hardly used since the overall dps is considered too low in regular groups since you need to give up light attack weaving. In this scenario though, they could help.

Let's sum it up. Heavy Attack builds are not necessarily an evil in ESO. It is a chance to make the combat system more widespread and allowing less experienced players to participate in content. It also serves as an alternative to players who physically cannot go down the “normal” path in ESO. And since ZOS still says their slogan “Play like you want” in ESO, I feel this should persist.

Now tell me your opinion. I am happy for constructive feedback.

Turtle_Bot

I honestly don't think it needs any further nerfs. The storm masters hit was fairly harsh while empower should still be in a good spot.
If there was to be another nerf (which I don't think there should be at all) and it was to reduce the tri-focus cleave damage, I would have the cleave of tri-focus sit at 50% of the damage done to the primary target at the lowest (i.e. this would be the harshest I would take this sort of nerf).

Most end game "proper builds" on classes that aren't sorcerer or NB tend to have around 40% to 60% cleave on their damage, so keeping heavy attack builds in the middle to higher end of that cleave value would be as low as I would take it due to the lower potential damage heavy attack builds have compared to the "proper builds".

Something that would also need to be taken into account with adjusting the cleave of heavy attacks is how extremely single target focused some classes are. While this is fine for parsing on trial dummies, the majority of content requires a fairly significant level of cleave to be cleared effectively, this would have to be addressed with significant buffs which would likely lead to many more problematic balance issues than heavy attack builds.

I honestly never got why there was so much hate towards heavy attack builds and even across all the threads on here over the past few months, I still have yet to see a truly valid reason for nerfing the build as drastically as many have tried to get it nerfed by.
The goal of PvE (at least as I understood it), was always to clear the content in a timely manner, preferably with as few deaths/issues as possible, and the build helped make this much more consistent, especially for pug runs which were always notorious for being a big waste of time/rarely completing the content at all.
The build looked like a win/win, more players could do more and harder content, content was actually being cleared now making pug runs much more enjoyable to do.
The build itself is also nowhere near overpowered in PvP (where balance issues are felt much more acutely than PvE) the issue with the build is tri-focus not being limited to only damage monsters.

PrincessOfThieves

Imo the problem with the current 1bar Oakensoul build is that it kinda gives you everything with no downsides. No other build in ESO is like that. Typically ranged builds do less damage (as a trade-off for better mobility and being able to dps while being away from the boss), mythic items have their own downsides (and no, having only one bar is not a downside, it makes the builds easier), and difficult achievements always required proficiency in both rotation and mechanics. Oakensorc simply doesn't follow the same rules, I think that's where the negativity comes from. Many people want to play other classes and use something other than a lightning staff, and in the current situation they simply cannot compete.

I think it would be interesting to implement some kind of skill progression for HA builds. For example, the easiest version of the build (1 bar) would be a good stepping stone for beginners and casual players, but to achieve higher dps you would need to utilize both bars and use more class skills (after all, it is boring that every class has to use lightning heavies instead of their class-defining skills). They could make it so Oakensoul ring scales off group size, like Pale Order, to motivate players to improve. This way, HA build would just be an alternative route of player's progression instead of easy mode button.

Speaking of easy mode... I am not sure there should be an easy mode for the most difficult achievements (trifectas, latest trial hm and the like). They are supposed to be a challenge, right?

TheDarkRuler

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I honestly don't think it needs any further nerfs. The storm masters hit was fairly harsh while empower should still be in a good spot.
If there was to be another nerf (which I don't think there should be at all) and it was to reduce the tri-focus cleave damage, I would have the cleave of tri-focus sit at 50% of the damage done to the primary target at the lowest (i.e. this would be the harshest I would take this sort of nerf).

So do I think. The nerf is already considerable. Trifocus nerfing could be a valid option but should not been overdone.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Most end game "proper builds" on classes that aren't sorcerer or NB tend to have around 40% to 60% cleave on their damage, so keeping heavy attack builds in the middle to higher end of that cleave value would be as low as I would take it due to the lower potential damage heavy attack builds have compared to the "proper builds".

Last time i watched the top-end DPS builds in raid groups were almost never using classes besides Necromancers and Dragon Knights for DD since their dps was too high on both single target and trash fights.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Imo the problem with the current 1bar Oakensoul build is that it kinda gives you everything with no downsides.

The downside is that it has lower maximum dps!

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Typically ranged builds do less damage (as a trade-off for better mobility and being able to dps while being away from the boss), mythic items have their own downsides (and no, having only one bar is not a downside, it makes the builds easier

In most raids even ranged DPS players tend to stand in melee range next to the boss to focus heal on them. So the range factor is not really important. Also melee classes tend to have gap-closers with Maelstrom 2h sword as well. Also I would consider not being able to play a monster set on full a considerable downside!

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

and difficult achievements always required proficiency in both rotation and mechanics. Oakensorc simply doesn't follow the same rules, I think that's where the negativity comes from. Many people want to play other classes and use something other than a lightning staff, and in the current situation they simply cannot compete.

A one-bar build does not win you achievements. Playing mechanics and knowing when to dodge/block and burst-dps does. Just because Nefas did Immortal Redeemer on One-Bar-Sorcs this doesnt mean everyone can. Don't try to reel in the top players as a standard for normal players. Even if I had a full One-Bar-Group doing Immortal Redeemer is still a far fetched dream if the mechanics aren't played well!

Medicate

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I honestly never got why there was so much hate towards heavy attack builds and even across all the threads on here over the past few months, I still have yet to see a truly valid reason for nerfing the build as drastically as many have tried to get it nerfed by.
The goal of PvE (at least as I understood it), was always to clear the content in a timely manner, preferably with as few deaths/issues as possible, and the build helped make this much more consistent, especially for pug runs which were always notorious for being a big waste of time/rarely completing the content at all.
The build looked like a win/win, more players could do more and harder content, content was actually being cleared now making pug runs much more enjoyable to do.
The build itself is also nowhere near overpowered in PvP (where balance issues are felt much more acutely than PvE) the issue with the build is tri-focus not being limited to only damage monsters.

Well the hate comes mostly from the competitive site of pve.
oakensoul builds require next to no training nor skill to get nearly equal or even better results than classic LA-builds.
As i like the idea of many players being able to clear vet content, i really dislike (or hate) how they outperform many classic builds to a point where there is no point in further trying.
One could say, it doesn't matter, but it does to many, me included

Also their resilience is ridiculous, as oakensoul sorcs can reach 30k HP (with warden buff), deal a ton of damage and don't even suffer from sustain issues ever.
the amount of vAS Trifectas run by this sh*t, is just over the top. it completely dis-values that trifecta and raid.

i definitly would support a further oakensoul or empower nerf or like you said a Tri-Focus nerf.
damn i miss the old empower skill. it really was better with 40% to LA/HAs

TheDarkRuler

Medicate wrote: »

Well the hate comes mostly from the competitive site of pve.

Competitive groups who try to score leaderboards will almost never use Oakensoul One-Bar Builds because they underperform compared to dual bar builds.

Medicate wrote: »

oakensoul builds require next to no training nor skill to get nearly equal or even better results than classic LA-builds.

Wrong, see the stats mentioned in original posts.

Medicate wrote: »

As i like the idea of many players being able to clear vet content, i really dislike (or hate) how they outperform many classic builds to a point where there is no point in further trying.

And why does it bother you? Does it hurt you in any way if another player can play the game? Are you so self-centered that you do not allow another player to participate in the game as well?

Medicate wrote: »

Also their resilience is ridiculous, as oakensoul sorcs can reach 30k HP (with warden buff), deal a ton of damage and don't even suffer from sustain issues ever.

Health in Veteran Raids is obsolete. If you dont play mechanics right it doesnt matter if your health is 20k, 25k or 30k. There are even Raid Mechanics where having a high health pool is counter productive (Lokkestiz Ice Tomb).

Medicate wrote: »

the amount of vAS Trifectas run by this sh*t, is just over the top. it completely dis-values that trifecta and raid.

Just because Nefas and other good players can run the raid with One-Bars it doesnt mean, this is the cause of One-Bar. Each raid has its "meta" and in vAS you just cannot stand stationary alot. This is why builds with high buff upkeeps/passive buffs are better. Don't focus so hard on vAS and have a broader mind on all the raids. Or do you play the same DPS build on all raids? Then you aren't doing raid content properly!

Medicate wrote: »

i definitly would support a further oakensoul or empower nerf or like you said a Tri-Focus nerf.
damn i miss the old empower skill. it really was better with 40% to LA/HAs

I said Trifocus was the main issue on Heavy Attack builds because 100% of the damage is also cleave damage. The single target dps was never the issue and should go back to U37 values.

Faulgor

You make it sound like HA builds were only recently introduced to ESO, when they have been with the game from the start.
The difference now is that 1) Empower has been buffed to an insane amount and 2) Oakensoul makes it possible to combine two ease-of-use styles into one, because before HA builds still had to bar swap and have a proper rotation.

HA builds have been through so many buff and nerf cycles I can't possibly give an accurate chronology (and whenever HA builds sucked, people like me passionately argued for them to be buffed so we can finally have some gameplay variety), but we went through HA metas before, iirc around Morrowind when people had to heavy attack for sustain. Yes, people used heavy attacks with Dual Wield, can you imagine!

So we aren't really talking about HA builds right now at all. We are talking about 2-3 particular sets, a mythic and a lightning staff. That's an incredible lack of diversity compared to previous HA metas.

If you've tried to build a HA rotation without these sets, or a weapon other than lightning staff, you'll see that heavy attacks completely and utterly suck. Which means, this one setup is just a crutch for >50% of the playerbase, and not a robust addition to the game that will have any predictable longevity. Just one of those elements nerfed, and the whole thing crumbles again.

IMO, what should happen first is for some of the power in these HA sets to be transfered back to HAs themselves, to allow for a better performance of "normal" HA rotations, and give low APM players 1) a more gentle performance curve whether they have these sets or not 2) more options and build variety in sets 3) an incentive to improve from just holding down one button.

Second, HA builds and lightning staves need to be decoupled. They are too synonymous. What this means is that other weapon HAs need to be buffed and made as cool as lightning heavies (don't you dare nerf those), and sets that buff HAs need to apply equally to all weapon types, whether they have ticks or not. The main part why lightning staves have always been #1 for HA builds is how they interact with these sets.

Then, I would try to achieve a balance where DPS falls about into this ranking
#1 Normal light attack rotations
#2.1 Normal heavy attack rotations
#2.2 One-bar light attack rotations (Oakensoul)
#2.3 Spam rotations (Velothi Ur-Mage)
#3 One-bar heavy attack builds (Oakensoul)

This would not only allow for various lower APM combat options, but also offer a clearer trajectory for improvement in any direction people prefer.

TheDarkRuler

Faulgor wrote: »

You make it sound like HA builds were only recently introduced to ESO, when they have been with the game from the start.
The difference now is that 1) Empower has been buffed to an insane amount and 2) Oakensoul makes it possible to combine two ease-of-use styles into one, because before HA builds still had to bar swap and have a proper rotation.

The 80% bonus gave alot as well as the 20% bonus from the CP tree. And ofc having it up 100% due to the passive Oakensoul Ring is nice as well. I agree with you on that. And about the fact that it sounded as if it were a recent issue, that is just the opinion i got in the forums in general. In the past years I haven't read much about Heavy Attack builds. It just started recently to become more and more.

Faulgor wrote: »

So we aren't really talking about HA builds right now at all. We are talking about 2-3 particular sets, a mythic and a lightning staff. That's an incredible lack of diversity compared to previous HA metas.

I agree on that. I really would like HA builds on other weapons than Lightning Staff. However I am not 100% sure how to achieve that better except by buffing up the base damage of those severely. And that could still backfire in PVP areas.

Faulgor wrote: »

If you've tried to build a HA rotation without these sets, or a weapon other than lightning staff, you'll see that heavy attacks completely and utterly suck. Which means, this one setup is just a crutch for >50% of the playerbase, and not a robust addition to the game that will have any predictable longevity. Just one of those elements nerfed, and the whole thing crumbles again.

Which is why if nerfing one set there should be alternatives. There are plenty of sets focussed around completing Heavy Attacks. If those became viable the nerf for Storm Master would not be that impactful at all.

Faulgor wrote: »

IMO, what should happen first is for some of the power in these HA sets to be transfered back to HAs themselves, to allow for a better performance of "normal" HA rotations, and give low APM players 1) a more gentle performance curve whether they have these sets or not 2) more options and build variety in sets 3) an incentive to improve from just holding down one button.

Could be an opinion but I think that would require rigorous testing. Especially considering that this will affect more than just PVE.

Faulgor wrote: »

Second, HA builds and lightning staves need to be decoupled. They are too synonymous. What this means is that other weapon HAs need to be buffed and made as cool as lightning heavies (don't you dare nerf those), and sets that buff HAs need to apply equally to all weapon types, whether they have ticks or not. The main part why lightning staves have always been #1 for HA builds is how they interact with these sets.

Do you have suggestions how you would improve Heavy Attacks on Dual Wield, Bows, Two-handed and more? Dual Wield could hit twice with each HA while Two-handed could deal massively damage towards single targets. Now sure about bows... perhaps make each HA bow fire three arrows?

Faulgor wrote: »

This would not only allow for various lower APM combat options, but also offer a clearer trajectory for improvement in any direction people prefer.

Could help alot.

Faulgor

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Do you have suggestions how you would improve Heavy Attacks on Dual Wield, Bows, Two-handed and more? Dual Wield could hit twice with each HA while Two-handed could deal massively damage towards single targets. Now sure about bows... perhaps make each HA bow fire three arrows?

Oh, ideas and suggestions I have a lot, but I always assume that if you make it too specific, ZOS is more likely to dismiss it.

Two-Handed is already AoE, which is fine IMO. Maybe it could also always apply Sundered or something.
DW could probably gain execute scaling.
1H+S ... maybe gain a little ultimate on use?
Frost Staff I always thought could be a PBAoE channel, 5m radius.
Inferno Staff, maybe a continuous beam (flamethrower) like the new Arcanist ability.
Restoration Staff is already great.
Bow could hit everything in its path, or always crit.

TheDarkRuler

Faulgor wrote: »

Two-Handed is already AoE, which is fine IMO. Maybe it could also always apply Sundered or something.
DW could probably gain execute scaling.
1H+S ... maybe gain a little ultimate on use?
Frost Staff I always thought could be a PBAoE channel, 5m radius.
Inferno Staff, maybe a continuous beam (flamethrower) like the new Arcanist ability.
Restoration Staff is already great.
Bow could hit everything in its path, or always crit.

Sundered is Armor reduction, right? If yes, sounds nice. I also like the Low-Health scaling you proposed on Dual Wields. One-Hand+Shield ulti gain as in a fix amount of points or as in Minor/Major Heroism?

I am not 100% sold on the continous beam since we have enough beams with Lightning and Heal staff. Perhaps making the fireball always apply a stackable heat proc and burning harder? To emphasize more on the single-target dps?

jaws343

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Two-Handed is already AoE, which is fine IMO. Maybe it could also always apply Sundered or something.
DW could probably gain execute scaling.
1H+S ... maybe gain a little ultimate on use?
Frost Staff I always thought could be a PBAoE channel, 5m radius.
Inferno Staff, maybe a continuous beam (flamethrower) like the new Arcanist ability.
Restoration Staff is already great.
Bow could hit everything in its path, or always crit.

Sundered is Armor reduction, right? If yes, sounds nice. I also like the Low-Health scaling you proposed on Dual Wields. One-Hand+Shield ulti gain as in a fix amount of points or as in Minor/Major Heroism?

I am not 100% sold on the continous beam since we have enough beams with Lightning and Heal staff. Perhaps making the fireball always apply a stackable heat proc and burning harder? To emphasize more on the single-target dps?

If they really were to change anything, maybe the flame heavy could explode on hit if it crits. And then apply burning to enemies in a 5 meter radius.

TheDarkRuler

jaws343 wrote: »

If they really were to change anything, maybe the flame heavy could explode on hit if it crits. And then apply burning to enemies in a 5 meter radius.

A really nice idea. Though that is a bit of a copy of what some sets already do (Destructive Magician), but it still is better than what it does now.

PrincessOfThieves

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

The downside is that it has lower maximum dps!

Very few people can do 130k with an endgame build while everyone with at least one hand can do high dps on Oakensorc. Join some casual guild discords and you will see people with "top dps" builds doing like 60-70k and instantly jumping to 90k with Oaken. This thing kills any build diversity in midgame.
Top-end groups have their own tiny community that doesn't really affect most of us. And mid-tier runs used to be pretty diverse before the rise of Oakensorc. Someone would bring a stamplar, someone would go as a sorc etc. Now it's kinda pointless to do anything else when pressing one button gives you more damage.

In most raids even ranged DPS players tend to stand in melee range next to the boss to focus heal on them. So the range factor is not really important. Also melee classes tend to have gap-closers with Maelstrom 2h sword as well. Also I would consider not being able to play a monster set on full a considerable downside!

What about arenas, dungeons and places like vAS?
And why is it a downside if you already get 90k+ with almost no effort?

A one-bar build does not win you achievements. Playing mechanics and knowing when to dodge/block and burst-dps does. Just because Nefas did Immortal Redeemer on One-Bar-Sorcs this doesnt mean everyone can. Don't try to reel in the top players as a standard for normal players. Even if I had a full One-Bar-Group doing Immortal Redeemer is still a far fetched dream if the mechanics aren't played well!

It kind of does, though. I tested the build myself and it makes things like hms, Vateshran and pretty much everything else except for vCR significantly easier. On a normal build, getting hit for 25k ends your nodeath/trifecta attempt, but if you're an Oakensorc, you'll be just fine.

I also see people who kinda struggled with hms before getting IR and some other nice titles. I kinda don't think they got super skillful overnight.

I understand that you and other HA fans want to keep this build because it makes the game much easier, but it's really not good for the health of the game. ESO is often criticized for the lack of build variety, and this Oakensorc situation is the pinnacle of it. It trivializes ESO combat and with the results it gives, there's no reason to use anything else if you're a casual player. The problem is, casual players are often attached to their characters and playstyles, and if they don't wanna run with a lightning staff like everyone else, they're simply left behind.

Also, I'd like to repeat my question:
Why should there be an easy mode for hard modes?

Billium813

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

The downside is that it has lower maximum dps!

I'm really getting tired of this point. The fact that 2 bar builds have a higher maximum DPS only matters to the 5% of players that can even get there in the first place. Sure, 2 bar can get to 130k and HA builds can't that's great. But when 90% of you players can't get over 100k to begin with, the point is totally moot!

What matters is the 70-90k mid-field. That's where most players stack up, even on 2 bar builds! HA builds out perform all other 2 bar builds in that range. They use almost no resources, attack at range, and with AOE damage! There is literally NO downside in this DPS range.

This isn't to say I want HA builds to be nerfed into oblivion. I want players to have more viable options to build! But "viable" cannot mean "best in slot". There needs to be legitimate options at each progression point for players (new, mid, end). HA builds need build diversity so that players can have options and HA builds can be more robust. At the moment, you pull the pin on anything and the whole build crumbles to dust! That's why players are so upset if anything is touched! Cause there are so few viable options!

Soarora

I’m of the firm belief that first-off, theres buffs that need to be removed from Oakensoul, such as minor aegis, because they give too much survivability for a DPS to have. Secondly, empower should be added to a different mythic or global skill, whether or not it should be then removed from oakensoul I’m unsure about, but this is so that 2-bar HA is more feasible. Thirdly, the damage ceiling should not be so high on the build unless it is made more difficult (such as making HA squishier than a traditional build so one needs to time their HAs so they can block). I’d say 75k maximum, enough for veteran trials but not so high that its stepping in the toes of traditional builds. If 75k is the ceiling then I think the 100% cleave may be fine, would have to see in practice. After all, ease of use and the high cleave are the shining points of the build.

Edit: in other words, I think it’s fine that people with HA builds, be them casuals or otherwise, are able to see veteran content and get their monster helmets and perfected gear. People with HA builds should not be completing HM and trifecta content, however, not unless there is a new HA build that matches the difficulty of a traditional build that then can be called an endgame HA build (which it would be cool in this situation that endgame HA builds require endgame HA teams with things like necro empowering grasp and such, but not necessary).

Estin

Billium813 wrote: »

But "viable" cannot mean "best in slot".

I think this is the point people always miss about Oakensoul HA builds. There's a misconception of what viable actually means. If Oakensoul HA builds were viable by definition, they would only be dealing a cap of 60k DPS since that's all what is needed to be viable in a vet trial. Oakensoul HA builds have been meta since they've gained popularity because of the insane boost to survivability along with the easy access to optimal damage. People believe it's viable because it allows them to complete not just vet trials, but trifectas more easily.

Auldwulfe

I keep seeing the same two things.... one the term "proper build"....
I hate to break it to people, there is no such thing as a "proper build"... you may like your two bar build, but I know a LOT of players, who don't use Oakensoul, but do use 1 bar builds..... is their build NOT "proper"... should they be punished for not being obedient to the "proper build"??

Second is the people who say you can't use the top DPS people as a comparison... because they are a small percentage..... and then, they use those exact same people's 1 bar builds as their banner for why it does too much...... Seriously, top players will be top players no matter the build... they already know the mechanics... which is 70% of every dungeon, etc.

I did Vatashran's with a level 35 nightblade, and only used my jump through shadows, light attacks, and flurry... along with dodge roll, and judicious drops of my ultimate and I beat it. Why? I know the mechanics.... I died enough times to have them hammered through my skull..... I also built that character right from the start... right after I created it, I went to Alinor, using my inn room, and researched the exact traits I wanted..., that is easy, I have a master crafter ... make the exact trait I want, put in bank, switch character and research... 5 hours for that, and I ONLY needed to research exactly what I needed.... and when I went into Vatashrans..... I had set gear, reconstructed, as it reconstructs at the level of the crafter, and you only need to know 1 trait to reconstruct ANY piece.... and yes, I did wear Slime Craw at level 4... thank you very much.

Most oakensoul users are probably getting 50K parces and probably 30 to 35K in actual play ---- but the goalposts are moving so rapidly on the anti-oakensoul side, that it's hard to keep up. Which really doesn't matter as any evidence to the contrary is ignored, anyways.....

The playstyle will get nerfed... the clickbaiters will find another thing to try and suck in views... and the players that remain will wonder why the dungeons feel empty...... the above will be the answer.

Auldwulfe

Billium813

The problem is 100% Heavy Attack sets (like Sergeant's Mail) and Lightning Staff having the unique channel damage. That's it. Its the ONLY issue. Period. Full Stop.

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Why is this a problem now when HA builds have always existed?

HA builds have been around for a long time. Sets like Sergeant's Mail have changed over the last year, and that is one piece of the puzzle, but the real culprit is Empower. That's what changed. That was what came along and pushed a moderately ok build into the position it's in now.

NOW, that isn't to say Empower is the problem! It's just the REASON for the latest prolific surge of HA builds. See, HA builds have always been this 6/10 build in the background. But Empower, and Oakensoul giving 100% uptime on it, came along and cranked that up +3!

Unfortunately, ZOS is blind. Empower is "new", so they are going to assume that's the thing that needs nerfed. When ZOS makes changes, they NEVER consider that old things may need changed. They always assume that it must be the new things they've recently changed. That isn't necessarily a bad strategy... but they aren't looking at the whole picture here and they are missing the target by a mile.

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What I like about Empower and why nerfing it ISNT the solution

Empower is a perfectly fine buff. It's fine specifically because ALL HA damages are utilizing it equally! All weapons are seeing +80% damage, with Lightning Staff seeing that +80% on the channel AND the final hit. Sample math time!

• Without Empower
  • Lightning Staff - Channel: 2x 1009, Final Hit 1x 3031 = 5049
  • Inferno Staff - Final Hit 1x 3871
  • Bow Staff - Final Hit 1x 5383
  • 2 Handed - Final Hit 1x 3713

• With Empower
  • Lightning Staff - Channel: 2x 1816, Final Hit 1x 5456 = 9088
  • Inferno Staff - Final Hit 1x 6967
  • Bow Staff - Final Hit 1x 9690
  • 2 Handed - Final Hit 1x 6683

*Note, these are single target damages using 4p vs 5p Queen's Elegance just for the Empower buff, no HA flat-damage buff sets like Storm Master or Sergeant's Mail

There are two problems that stand out here:

1. Lightning Staff HA has a higher Single Target damage compared to almost all other weapons, AND it gets a 5m cleave AOE! Even Inferno Staff HA damage is significantly lower than Lightning Staff and Inferno is supposed to be all about single target damage! Just read its passives!
2. Nerfing Empower would do NOTHING to increase the viability of HA builds. Not because "less damage" == "less viable", which I'm sure some people would think. Nerfing Empower decreases Lightning Staff viability, but it also nerfs all other HA build viability! Since all HA weapons are utilizing the buff equally, changes to Empower will effect them all equally. A 6/10 viable Two Handed build is going to get nerfed for the sins of "viable" 9/10 Lightning Staves! That shows an imbalance that needs to be fixed.

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So what would you change for HA builds?

1. Remove Lightning Staves unique channel damage from being affected by HA flat damage buff sets. This can be done quite easily: Change all the "... increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks by ..." sets to "... increasing the damage of your Fully Charged Heavy Attacks by ... " sets. This is going to really knock down Lightning Staves, and therefore HA builds in general, but sometimes you have to tear things down to build them up again! Keep reading on to see how we can build HA builds back to viability AND diversity!
2. Add more HA passives to other weapon types. Some examples:
   • Bow
     • Passive - Ricochet
       • Fully charged Heavy attacks, dealt at a close range (< 10m), damage up to 1 other nearby enemy for 100% of the damage inflicted to the primary target and stuns that enemy for 2 seconds.
   • Dual Wield
     • Passive - Run Through
       • Fully charged Heavy attacks damage enemies in front of you for 100% of the damage inflicted to the primary target
3. Rebalance all the weapons BASE HA damage values. These are the numbers that everything grows off of that's why it's SOOO important they be correct.
   • Inferno Staff and Bow should be the best single target HA weapons for damage. Bow can vary a bit based on distance from target, making passives change in utility and raw DPS values.
   • Dual Wield, Two Handed, and Lightning Staff should have strengths and weaknesses for damage if they are going to get multi-target damage and/or AOE. 2H could be the highest of the 3, but with limited multi-target damage. Dual Wield could be next in damage, but still somewhat limited in AOE range and scope. Lightning Staff would then be even lower in base damage given the range and full AOE cleave bonuses. Keep in mind that this ranking is minor. They are all comparable and can be somewhat close. But a difference of a few hundred damage at the base can balloon out to several thousand DPS difference later once sets and buffs are added!
   • Finally, Restoration, Ice staff, & Sword/Shield bring up the rear given their defensive and support leanings. Sword/Shield being much more resource oriented and less damage at all.
4. Buff Empower up to 120% and increase Fully Charged Heavy Attack sets damage modifiers! Now that Lightning Staff isn't the only kid on the block anymore and has been dropped SEVERAL pegs, it's only fair that pervasive bonuses like the Empower buff and the new Fully Charged Heavy Attacks sets, should be buffed to make HA builds more viable! The nice thing is that now, players have options and can build in several different ways! They aren't pigeonholed into 1 set choice, 1 weapon choice, and 1 mythic choice.

dosco

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Does it hurt you in any way if another player can play the game? Are you so self-centered that you do not allow another player to participate in the game as well?

I agree with you that the Tri Focus needs to change, and that HA builds aren't necessarily an evil in ESO, however, they have been buffed to the sky while empower was deleted for LA builds, and the current hostility in the forums against LA build users is just weird. Like, this is not a good tone lol

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

The downside is that it has lower maximum dps!
[...]
Don't try to reel in the top players as a standard for normal players.

I mean, the majority of players isn't able to hit 100k+ dps on light attack builds though. Most players easily have higher dps with a HA build than with a LA build, and would need to put a lof of time and effort into practicing a LA build to achieve the same numbers. That makes LA builds unattractive to players who are looking to get into raiding, why put effort into learning a rotation? etc. So no, that's not a downside for the majority of players, who are able to get much higher dps with this than without it.
Besides, many players thought long before oakensoul that 2 bars were too complex, and played with just 1 bar. It really isn't perceived as a downside.


Speaking as someone disabled - I don't get this "excluded from the game" talk - there is a normal mode after all, and i fully support making that as accessible as possible, because yes, nobody should be excluded from that if there is another option. However, at some point it gets silly: No, not everyone has to be able to do dlc trial trifectas. Just no. I might never get one, and that's okay, in fact, most players probably aren't able to get one, nobody is entitled to it, and it's honestly good that this game offers something for every skill level.

Katlefiya

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Now tell me your opinion. I am happy for constructive feedback.

I don't get you thread title. A play style needs to be competitve to be a viable alternative.

TheDarkRuler

@Billium813 made some great suggestions with unique mechanics for all the weapons in terms of Heavy Attacking. The lightning attack was covered already enough by him so how about talking a bit about more unique HA skills that could be made. Also I find it great to focus more on completing "full" heavy attacks instead of having the Lightning chain heavy attacks buffed.

• Shield & Weapon: Heavy attacking restores more resources and also grants Minor Heroism for 3 seconds.
• Bow: Causes one more target besides the primary target to take full damage as well. (idea by Billium)
• Healing Staff: Healing Staffs already have the effect to healing allies for a fraction of the damage dealt and giving Major Mending. I think that is already quite strong, isn't it?
• Lightning Staff: Keeping the channeling but focussing the damage more on the final hit. Also reducing cleave DPS from Trifocus
• Inferno Staff: Faster animation speed on HA. Hitting a target applies a stack of stackable Fire Effect that deals additional damage over time. Upon reaching X stacks, all stacks are consumed in an explosion.
• Frost Staff: Already grants barrier upon striking and a quite strong one tbh, don't think this should be buffed.
• Two-handed Weapons: Heavy-attacking against a target causes it to take additional damage based on the missing health proportional to max. health.
• Dual-Wielded Weapons: Heavy-attacking a target causes all enemies in a wide conal area to take the same damage.

What do you think of that?

Auldwulfe

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

@Billium813 made some great suggestions with unique mechanics for all the weapons in terms of Heavy Attacking. The lightning attack was covered already enough by him so how about talking a bit about more unique HA skills that could be made. Also I find it great to focus more on completing "full" heavy attacks instead of having the Lightning chain heavy attacks buffed.

• Shield & Weapon: Heavy attacking restores more resources and also grants Minor Heroism for 3 seconds.
• Bow: Causes one more target besides the primary target to take full damage as well. (idea by Billium)
• Healing Staff: Healing Staffs already have the effect to healing allies for a fraction of the damage dealt and giving Major Mending. I think that is already quite strong, isn't it?
• Lightning Staff: Keeping the channeling but focussing the damage more on the final hit. Also reducing cleave DPS from Trifocus
• Inferno Staff: Faster animation speed on HA. Hitting a target applies a stack of stackable Fire Effect that deals additional damage over time. Upon reaching X stacks, all stacks are consumed in an explosion.
• Frost Staff: Already grants barrier upon striking and a quite strong one tbh, don't think this should be buffed.
• Two-handed Weapons: Heavy-attacking against a target causes it to take additional damage based on the missing health proportional to max. health.
• Dual-Wielded Weapons: Heavy-attacking a target causes all enemies in a wide conal area to take the same damage.

What do you think of that?

I don't see a problem with any of these... other options might be flame doing a stream of fire that immolates the target ..... while frost is either a beam of cold, or even a spray of ice shards at a target.... I do agree with fixing the lightning staff issue, I always have .... I'd actually consider a different mechanic, to be honest ... lightning with the cleave being a circle around the target hit, like now.... with fire and ice being cones... more damage closer in, but as it fans out, while it can hit more, the damage reduces.....


I'd, personally, LOVE more variety with the staves....

Auldwulfe

Billium813

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I'd, personally, LOVE more variety with the staves....

Ultimately, I think Destruction Staves should have a unique ability to swap between elemental types in combat... but that would require some semblance of balance between the staff types and a massive change. I don't expect this change to ever be made, but I think it could be fun!

danno8

Auldwulfe

danno8 wrote: »

Cute drawing... but that implies a non-HA build without good gear, and the HA build with the gear that supports it... because I have seen a LOT of other lines that would be on that one, too.....

In order to have the HA build that is so upsetting to people.. you have to have bought High Isle, and either DLC's or be a Plus subscriber... then, you have to grind the pieces, while also grinding the dungeons for the sets that enhance it... be Champion level, to wear it... .and have all the other parts right......

If that chart is to be accurate, and more than a crayon drawing... both start at the same point, and rise together, then HA goes up a little bit, and levels, while the 2 bar then continues up.... that would be accurate.

NO ONE has that at first, meaning that they are, at least, almost to the crossing point, before they get the items needed......

Auldwulfe

INM

Auldwulfe wrote: »

In order to have the HA build that is so upsetting to people.. you have to have bought High Isle, and either DLC's or be a Plus subscriber... then, you have to grind the pieces, while also grinding the dungeons for the sets that enhance it... be Champion level, to wear it... .and have all the other parts right......

What's the point of comparing incomplete builds? EVERYONE has to grind their gear. And it's not like HA sets are gated behind something difficult, there are farmed in easy vanilla dungeons.

Auldwulfe

INM wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

In order to have the HA build that is so upsetting to people.. you have to have bought High Isle, and either DLC's or be a Plus subscriber... then, you have to grind the pieces, while also grinding the dungeons for the sets that enhance it... be Champion level, to wear it... .and have all the other parts right......

What's the point of comparing incomplete builds? EVERYONE has to grind their gear. And it's not like HA sets are gated behind something difficult, there are farmed in easy vanilla dungeons.

Simple, by the time a person has gotten to the level to even wear a mythic... that 2 bar build is not down at that bottom... unless they have been getting carries on every delve, dungeon and other location.....

Until champion level, there is going to be little to NO difference between them... then you will see HA spike, and level, while the 2 bar continues until it crosses the HA .... neither chart reflects reality, to be honest..... as level, skill, etc are a huge factor.....

If they weren't, then 2 bar DK's wouldn't be 65% of competitive play......

Auldwulfe

PrincessOfThieves

Auldwulfe wrote: »

INM wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

In order to have the HA build that is so upsetting to people.. you have to have bought High Isle, and either DLC's or be a Plus subscriber... then, you have to grind the pieces, while also grinding the dungeons for the sets that enhance it... be Champion level, to wear it... .and have all the other parts right......

What's the point of comparing incomplete builds? EVERYONE has to grind their gear. And it's not like HA sets are gated behind something difficult, there are farmed in easy vanilla dungeons.

Simple, by the time a person has gotten to the level to even wear a mythic... that 2 bar build is not down at that bottom... unless they have been getting carries on every delve, dungeon and other location.....

Until champion level, there is going to be little to NO difference between them... then you will see HA spike, and level, while the 2 bar continues until it crosses the HA .... neither chart reflects reality, to be honest..... as level, skill, etc are a huge factor.....

If they weren't, then 2 bar DK's wouldn't be 65% of competitive play......

Auldwulfe

It doesn't make sense to compare a freshly created HA sorc to endgame dks.
First of all, everyone has to farm gear, and HA setup isn't the most difficult to get. You don't need any trial or dlc dungeon gear, just farm a couple of easy normal dungeons, do Wayrest 1 on vet once and grind some overland stuff for Oakensoul leads. It's just weird that you keep mentioning it as something special.
Secondly, what scorepushers do has very little in common with average player's gameplay. An average dk from a random pug is weaker than an average Oakensorc. Even if they also farmed a mythic (Kilt) and even some trial gear. By your logic, they should also be strong, but in my casual guilds I keep seeing 50-60-70k parses, and even that is hard to reach for many players. In the meantime, Oaken instantly gives you that with just one button. You don't even have to look at the screen or use both hands. There's no logical reason for this build to be that strong.

INM

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Simple, by the time a person has gotten to the level to even wear a mythic... that 2 bar build is not down at that bottom... unless they have been getting carries on every delve, dungeon and other location.....

Until champion level, there is going to be little to NO difference between them... then you will see HA spike, and level, while the 2 bar continues until it crosses the HA .... neither chart reflects reality, to be honest..... as level, skill, etc are a huge factor.....

If they weren't, then 2 bar DK's wouldn't be 65% of competitive play......

Auldwulfe

Are we seriously going to discuss the leveling process in the topic about the learning curve of endgame builds? By the time a person has gotten to the level to even wear a mythic he would not likely have either something that reminds a proper build or knowledge about how the combat system really functions. Most of players are completely clueless here. Once again, it's a discussion about the learning curve of the completely assembled builds, leveling or farming process is irrelevant there as, arguably, builds are irrelevant in leveling and farming.

Auldwulfe

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

INM wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

In order to have the HA build that is so upsetting to people.. you have to have bought High Isle, and either DLC's or be a Plus subscriber... then, you have to grind the pieces, while also grinding the dungeons for the sets that enhance it... be Champion level, to wear it... .and have all the other parts right......

What's the point of comparing incomplete builds? EVERYONE has to grind their gear. And it's not like HA sets are gated behind something difficult, there are farmed in easy vanilla dungeons.

Simple, by the time a person has gotten to the level to even wear a mythic... that 2 bar build is not down at that bottom... unless they have been getting carries on every delve, dungeon and other location.....

Until champion level, there is going to be little to NO difference between them... then you will see HA spike, and level, while the 2 bar continues until it crosses the HA .... neither chart reflects reality, to be honest..... as level, skill, etc are a huge factor.....

If they weren't, then 2 bar DK's wouldn't be 65% of competitive play......

Auldwulfe

It doesn't make sense to compare a freshly created HA sorc to endgame dks.
First of all, everyone has to farm gear, and HA setup isn't the most difficult to get. You don't need any trial or dlc dungeon gear, just farm a couple of easy normal dungeons, do Wayrest 1 on vet once and grind some overland stuff for Oakensoul leads. It's just weird that you keep mentioning it as something special.
Secondly, what scorepushers do has very little in common with average player's gameplay. An average dk from a random pug is weaker than an average Oakensorc. Even if they also farmed a mythic (Kilt) and even some trial gear. By your logic, they should also be strong, but in my casual guilds I keep seeing 50-60-70k parses, and even that is hard to reach for many players. In the meantime, Oaken instantly gives you that with just one button. You don't even have to look at the screen or use both hands. There's no logical reason for this build to be that strong.

And yet, it is those scorepushers, using Oakensoul, that everyone uses as an example.....

And thank you for agreeing with me on EVERYONE has to grind gear...... and while that oakensoul person will eventually hit their cap, that 2 bar can continue to improve....

I see parses at all ranges, including the dreaded oakensoul / lightning build that doesn't break 40K....
While I have seen people, without oakensoul, using heavy attacks to break 70K....

I was pointing out that the charts do not reflect any reality, in that they do not take into account level, etc....

If the character was level 7, the line would be flat on the bottom, as they can't join a queue to even enter a dungeon, and even if they did the antiquities, and got carries for the leads, getting them on the first try everywhere.... they still couldn't use it... if I wanted to, I could put my Pillars of Nirn on a level 4 character.... I can put other sets on, and walk around spamming light attacks only, and so outperform a HA build, until they hit 50/160
All I have to do is spend a day in any craft hall and research one trait each, on the items I want to have... go to clockwork city, which has a wayshrine, and have the transmutes from other characters already.... I can use them at any level.

There are so many variables..... just let people play the game they bought and paid for, and are still paying for..... that's my issue. I do believe, having seen the math, that the problem is with the lightning staff and the HA support sets, as we DON'T see any screaming about the people using 2-handed weapons and Oakensoul.... or the people using Ice staff and Oakensoul, or Firestaff, or Dual wield.... they exist, I have talked to a number of them.... but you can build a HA lightning build, and get ridiculous damage at low levels .... without Oakensoul.

I did it, as I was trying to figure out the issue --- using my 1000 transmutes, plus all the stored geodes.... I built a fresh sorc, and by level 5 had done my researches, gone to clockwork city, and was wearing Sergeant's Mail and Queen's Elegance, as I have those stickers full..... bought a couple of skill lines with crowns, fighter and mage... although the mage one is dreadfully easy to get the second level onlocked which is all that is really needed, you can join as soon as you start the game... and boom, was breaking 60K damage..... and can't wear oakensoul for 40+ more levels......

I am pointing out that the oakensoul ring adds an advantage to it.... but isn't the core problem... and even taking it away does NOT change the core problem.... it just punishes the 2-handed, dual wield, ice staff, fire staff, and bow users that use it for whichever reason......

I, actually, opposed the ring when it was first announced... and I was already using my HA lightning attack sorc, and had been using it for a year before the ring existed...... I foresaw hordes of werewolves running around with it ...... as they only have one bar anyways, it works for them....

And it came out, and I waited .... and the only thing that came up was the build I had been using a YEAR before the ring existed.... and it turned out that what I thought was just an effect of empower mixing with other buffs, turned out to be lightning staves interacting odd with HA boosting sets. That math has been shown repeatedly..... and yes, I do agree that is something that needs to be rectified... the current nerfs do not do that.... and instead will just drive away players, while the remainder just adapt.... that has already started to happen with people switching to Noble Duelist, and adjusting their play style....
By the way, with the return of melee combat to 7 meters... it's going to be ridiculously easy to keep the melee requirement for Noble Duelist up.... everything rushes you once the attack starts... so you close on one guy, and let the rest rush in.......

I would much rather we took the opportunity to fix the issue with channeled staves - and improved play for even more people.... but no one wants that...... I'd be fine with a 75K damage cap on ALL builds..... to be honest, and once you get a set and build that gets you there... if that is how you enjoy playing, then that is how you enjoy playing.......
And with the new scaling, along with damage cap, on light attacks this last patch, I am beginning to wonder if ZOS is feeling the same.

Hybrid is changing everything.... I can use an Imperial, put all my stats in Stamina, put all my glyphs in Stamina, and take up a Restoration Staff, and be one of the best healers in the game, able to keep up with ANY tank or DPS ... with more dodge, block, etc than some of those have.......

The old ways are dead..... I do not know where things may go, but the arcanist has a skill that gives Major Brutality, and Major Sorcery, just by being slotted..... even if not the current bar.... with 100% uptime on that.
There is a new mythic that lets anyone tank... by, basically, having you block all the time, and people thought the helping hands thing with DK's was an issue..... it's now a joke.... and once people figure out how much stamina regen they need, the new mythic is probably going to overshadow things... unless the one that boosts all damage except light attacks takes that spot first.

Auldwulfe

robpr

Honestly, Oakensoul should just extend duration of any named buff gained by like 20-30s instead of giving dozen of buffs infinitely to incentivise group play instead of being seen as easy button. No food, unlimited sustain, no pots, no skills for common buffs like force, both single target and area damage with single click.

But that's my opinion, please don't eat me. I don't care what other people use as long as they won't drag other 11 people down.