Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist

Tradewind · April 2023

There's no valid reason to request a nerf in HA, because any player can use the same build and do the same amount of damage. However, not all players can perform at the same level as skilled players with two bars.
In this game, being the top DPS player does not offer any personal reward. There's nothing at all to gain. Therefore, players should focus on their own enjoyment of the game instead of requesting nerfs for builds without any benefits. It doesn't make sense to do so.

I don't understand why Zenimax allows this behavior to continue. It's not about gameplay, mechanics, or anything else. This behavior is solely aimed at ruining other players' gaming experiences. The only satisfaction someone gains from this is the feeling of making the game more difficult and less enjoyable for other players.
Allowing this behavior to continue, solely for the satisfaction of certain players, is shameful. Players don't gain any rewards for being the strongest player.

It's 100% Zenimax's fault for all of this because they have not fixed animation cancelling, and for allow DPS share.
I love the game, but I feel ashamed to play it.

Ghaleb · April 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Anifaas wrote: »

Right now ESO needs more build diversity, not less. These proposed changes are a step backwards.

The proposed changes don't harm build diversity in the slightest. Oakensoul HA builds will only drop by about 4% DPS - still plenty strong enough to do all content.

I bet if it was light attack 4 % drop you wouldn’t be happy

You lost the bet than. Just recently light attacks have lost 40% buff because empower no longer affects them and there is now a dmg cap put on their scaling. Do You see some massive complaints about those changes?

Gee. Seemingly, most posters forgot that ZOS brought the nerf-bat to U35 and 2-bar-builds lost around 20-30% of their damage.

Was there an outcry? Of f... course. Something around 25 pages of text, where I also heavily complained. Where are we at for the 1-bar-build nerf? 16+ pages? For what? 4-6 percent plus change?

I understand that nerfing your playstyle is nobodies favorite. But overreaction needs to be called out and a lot of the criticism is exactly that. HA-builds can still proceed to run their build. Yes, maybe you need to exchange storm master against duelist. But that's basically it. It still is a one-trick pony. You don't need to change sets in raids. You have endless sustain, AOE damage, high resistances, a lot of health, etc.

I first thought, when I saw the amount of pages regarding the HA-build nerf, that we are getting a nerf way north of 10-20%. But 4-6? Come on. The guild mates in our raids running HA-Builds will still be able to clear vet raids with that.

Galeriano · April 2023

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Well one bar builds have not fixed that issue. They just made things worse for those two bar enjoyers who were not top tier DDs. New mythic coming with Necrom seems to address that issue better than oakensoul. It lowers LA/HA dmg but boost all the other dmg. That being said it still doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack average DPS is where it should be balance wise according to devs.

I think you are missing my point.

I m not talking purely on a damage dealt and number standpoint.

I m talking on an ease of use and enjoyment standpoint without nerfing the expected required DPS to meet in a content.

You can implement an item that will lower LA/HA attacks damage but it won't make 2 bars playstyle any less clunky as it is now, as it isn't only a DPS issue. I hate to break your bubble but TESO battle system isn't highly considered by people who don't play TESO. Most people consider it is a mess.

Also no one bar setups didn't ruin anything, the fact everyone and their mother (literally) run these build should tell you something about what players enjoy and expect on average in the game. If 2 bars gameplay was the peak of enjoyment, nobody would wear oakensoul.

Also you may think it is a "small nerf" it still isn't a step in the right direction and the right message. Also don't forget that a lot of players who run 1 bar builds were the players who ran 2 bars builds poorly before and that were getting insulted in veteran content for not dealing enough damage and not being optimal enough. By reducing the damage for these builds you also decrease the efficiency of the average group running the content.

Thing is right now oakensoul heavy attack DPS is way above "expected required DPS to meet in a content". ZoS could cut 1/3 of that setup DPS and still all vet and majority of HM content would be accesible for people running with it.

People who like to play with 2 bars don't find it cluncky. They like it because it's dynamic and fast paced. I hate to break Your bubble but it really doesn't matter what people who don't play ESO think. Lots of people playing ESO plays the game only because of fast paced combat that game offers.

You are falling the victim to confirmation bias. Fact that " everyone and their mother (literally) run these build" doesn't mean everyone is enjoying it. By the same logic we can say that everyone was enjoying two bar setups before oakensoul because everyone was running with these. Even then there was after all one bar heavy attack alternative but suprisingly not many people wanted to run with it. If one bar heavy attack setup was a peak of enjoyment barely anyone should run with two bars back then right? Don't fool Yourself, enjoyment is not a main factor deciding what people are running with. The main factor is setup's efefctiveness and righht now one bar heavy attack is the most effective playstyle for majority of players because it offers lots of dmg for little effort when compared to two bar setup making two bars setups obsolete in low, mid and some parts of end game. Unless You are not high tier DD, right now You are incapable to compete with one bar heavy attack player as two bar player.

So after over a year of improving the game in the direction of making it more accesible and making one bar heavy attack setups stronger where they went from around 70-75k DPS to 90-100k DPS now after they reached a point where average one bar user is easily outperforming average two bar user, slight nerf to one bar heavy attack setups effectivenss is a step in wrong direction? Also fact that a one bar, ranged setup with easy sustain, simple slow paced rotation and high base defense that also have lots of AoE built into it is doing more damage on average than two bar, meele setup with harder sustain, more complex fast paced rotation, lower based defense and lower AoE dmg is sending a right message? Come on let's be real here.

Players who switched from two bars to one bars and noticed massive DPS increase will still be doing way better damage with one bar heavy attack setup than they were with two bar setup. By reducing the damage of one bar builds You will decrease efficieny of groups full of one bar heavy attack players which will give average two bar player a chance to participate without falling behind.

Rkindaleft · April 2023

The people that are saying "well, wouldn't you be unhappy if a nerf to your build happened?" well, what about U35 where we lost like 25% of our total DPS? Compared to that, isn't this nerf much smaller in the grand scheme of things? People like to forget that they have nerfed DPS like, every 2nd patch in the last 5 years be it in LA damage nerfs, removal of the LA scaling from Empower, set nerfs, skill nerfs, etc - and players adapted.

I agree that HA builds are an important thing to have in terms of accessibility, however the build has:

1) Infinite sustain
2) Has high ST DPS, yet its DPS is also 100% AoE
3) Has 25k resists and can have 30k health with undaunted passives, so it's extremely tanky for how much DPS it does
4) Is also fully ranged, so it's safer to play in general

It's arguably the strongest option in most content because of this, it functions significantly better than what a parse on a dummy would be able to tell you. For a build designed purely for accessibility, people are getting trial trifectas with it way easier than they are with a LA build. The Storm Master nerf is weird and it probably could've been left alone, but Empower needed to be toned down.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

Rkindaleft wrote: »

The people that are saying "well, wouldn't you be unhappy if a nerf to your build happened?" well, what about U35 where we lost like 25% of our total DPS? Compared to that, isn't this nerf much smaller in the grand scheme of things? People like to forget that they have nerfed DPS like, every 2nd patch in the last 5 years be it in LA damage nerfs, removal of the LA scaling from Empower, set nerfs, skill nerfs, etc.

I agree that HA builds are an important thing to have in terms of accessibility, however the build has:

1) Infinite sustain
2) Has high ST DPS, yet it's DPS is also 100% AoE
3) Has 25k resists and can have 30k health with undaunted passives, so it's extremely tanky for how much DPS it does
4) Is also fully ranged, so it's safer to play in general

It's without a doubt one of the strongest options in content because of this, it functions significantly better than what a parse on a dummy would be able to tell you. For a build designed purely for accessibility, people are getting trial trifectas with it way easier than they are with a LA build. The Storm Master nerf is weird and it probably could've been left alone, but Empower needed to be nerfed.

The only nerfs that should exist are the pink footballs that whistle I used to play with my dad as a kid in the early 90s 😂

Hapexamendios · April 2023

Ghaleb wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Anifaas wrote: »

Right now ESO needs more build diversity, not less. These proposed changes are a step backwards.

The proposed changes don't harm build diversity in the slightest. Oakensoul HA builds will only drop by about 4% DPS - still plenty strong enough to do all content.

I bet if it was light attack 4 % drop you wouldn’t be happy

You lost the bet than. Just recently light attacks have lost 40% buff because empower no longer affects them and there is now a dmg cap put on their scaling. Do You see some massive complaints about those changes?

Gee. Seemingly, most posters forgot that ZOS brought the nerf-bat to U35 and 2-bar-builds lost around 20-30% of their damage.

Was there an outcry? Of f... course. Something around 25 pages of text, where I also heavily complained. Where are we at for the 1-bar-build nerf? 16+ pages? For what? 4-6 percent plus change?

I understand that nerfing your playstyle is nobodies favorite. But overreaction needs to be called out and a lot of the criticism is exactly that. HA-builds can still proceed to run their build. Yes, maybe you need to exchange storm master against duelist. But that's basically it. It still is a one-trick pony. You don't need to change sets in raids. You have endless sustain, AOE damage, high resistances, a lot of health, etc.

I first thought, when I saw the amount of pages regarding the HA-build nerf, that we are getting a nerf way north of 10-20%. But 4-6? Come on. The guild mates in our raids running HA-Builds will still be able to clear vet raids with that.

I've seen a few people mention that the nerfs are only 4-6% thus basically insignificant. So insignificant that they are perhaps unnecessary? If people think the nerfs can be lived with, the opposite is also true, they can be lived without.

Galeriano · April 2023

Ghaleb wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Anifaas wrote: »

Right now ESO needs more build diversity, not less. These proposed changes are a step backwards.

The proposed changes don't harm build diversity in the slightest. Oakensoul HA builds will only drop by about 4% DPS - still plenty strong enough to do all content.

I bet if it was light attack 4 % drop you wouldn’t be happy

You lost the bet than. Just recently light attacks have lost 40% buff because empower no longer affects them and there is now a dmg cap put on their scaling. Do You see some massive complaints about those changes?

Gee. Seemingly, most posters forgot that ZOS brought the nerf-bat to U35 and 2-bar-builds lost around 20-30% of their damage.

Was there an outcry? Of f... course. Something around 25 pages of text, where I also heavily complained. Where are we at for the 1-bar-build nerf? 16+ pages? For what? 4-6 percent plus change?

I understand that nerfing your playstyle is nobodies favorite. But overreaction needs to be called out and a lot of the criticism is exactly that. HA-builds can still proceed to run their build. Yes, maybe you need to exchange storm master against duelist. But that's basically it. It still is a one-trick pony. You don't need to change sets in raids. You have endless sustain, AOE damage, high resistances, a lot of health, etc.

I first thought, when I saw the amount of pages regarding the HA-build nerf, that we are getting a nerf way north of 10-20%. But 4-6? Come on. The guild mates in our raids running HA-Builds will still be able to clear vet raids with that.

Yeah I mean this game is 9 years old and lots of its history are nerfs but yeah 4% nerf to light attacks would make us unhappy...

Like seriously we went though 10-20% overall DPS nerfs and we had to adjust but here we are in 2023 where people complain that they need to adjust to 5% DPS nerf on a setup that is still doing more DPS than it's needed to complete majority of content.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Ghaleb wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Anifaas wrote: »

Right now ESO needs more build diversity, not less. These proposed changes are a step backwards.

The proposed changes don't harm build diversity in the slightest. Oakensoul HA builds will only drop by about 4% DPS - still plenty strong enough to do all content.

I bet if it was light attack 4 % drop you wouldn’t be happy

You lost the bet than. Just recently light attacks have lost 40% buff because empower no longer affects them and there is now a dmg cap put on their scaling. Do You see some massive complaints about those changes?

Gee. Seemingly, most posters forgot that ZOS brought the nerf-bat to U35 and 2-bar-builds lost around 20-30% of their damage.

Was there an outcry? Of f... course. Something around 25 pages of text, where I also heavily complained. Where are we at for the 1-bar-build nerf? 16+ pages? For what? 4-6 percent plus change?

I understand that nerfing your playstyle is nobodies favorite. But overreaction needs to be called out and a lot of the criticism is exactly that. HA-builds can still proceed to run their build. Yes, maybe you need to exchange storm master against duelist. But that's basically it. It still is a one-trick pony. You don't need to change sets in raids. You have endless sustain, AOE damage, high resistances, a lot of health, etc.

I first thought, when I saw the amount of pages regarding the HA-build nerf, that we are getting a nerf way north of 10-20%. But 4-6? Come on. The guild mates in our raids running HA-Builds will still be able to clear vet raids with that.

I've seen a few people mention that the nerfs are only 4-6% thus basically insignificant. So insignificant that they are perhaps unnecessary? If people think the nerfs can be lived with, the opposite is also true, they can be lived without.

I agree but to them since it doesn’t affect them they expect others to just deal with it.
Imagine a player doing 10 k dps getting made fun of in normal dungeons working really hard to do better to reach 15 k with hands that are half functioning. Than someone tells you about a build
That could maybe make you join in more content and not get made fun of and than hit 25k dps while
It’s not great you can enjoy soloing world bosses / do normal normal dungeons with ease and get some confidence and slowly work on getting your cp and points up and golding our your gear but at least now you are doing good enough damage for the basic stuff to not be a waste and made fun of.

Now … a nerf comes and brings that damage down when you are already sucking wind as it is.

It just doesn’t seem fair to hit so many players like me because a few experts abused a play style.

AScarlato · April 2023

The difference with the light attack nerf is I never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking. I’ve seen requests for alternatives styles but not the selfish and petty cries for nerfs we HA users witnessed here. All because we can now do decent dps that is still lower than the top 2 bar La players.

But no. The ha dps even though worse is just too good in these players eyes. Players that cannot handle light attack and aren’t sweating perfect rotations and the “skill” of constantly pressing your pointer finger for hours at a time just simply deserve to be mid to low tier players and nothing more in their eyes.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

The difference with the light attack nerf is I never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking. I’ve seen requests for alternatives styles but not the selfish and petty cries for nerfs we HA users witnessed here. All because we can now do decent dps that is still lower than the top 2 bar La players.

But no. The ha dps even though worse is just too good in these players eyes. Players that cannot handle light attack and aren’t sweating perfect rotations and the “skill” of constantly pressing your pointer finger for hours at a time just simply deserve to be mid to low tier players and nothing more in their eyes.

I agree and because of this I’m just gonna go back to playing this game like Skyrim and doing the quests and not bothering with the group stuff.

Xalits · April 2023

ZoS just introduced something that people like and made them enjoy the game even more, and they are nerfing it right away? What is the reason behind it, ZoS? If people like it, just keep it.

Anyway, I planned to re-sub and purchase Necrom, but will probably refrain for now, till I see where all these changes will lead to.

INM · April 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

The difference with the light attack nerf is I never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking.

I guess you weren't following the community, nerf/remove weaving is an evergreen topic in this community. It's just a quicksearch here, but there are much much more.

loveeso · April 2023

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631760/thoughts-of-a-random-guy-on-necrom-changes-to-ha-heavy-attack-builds-on-arcanist/p1

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:

Test Assumptions:

The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
- The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
- The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:

Wall
Heavy Attack
Heavy Attack
Heavy Attack
Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

Next post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7854393/#Comment_7854393

Stanelis · April 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Well one bar builds have not fixed that issue. They just made things worse for those two bar enjoyers who were not top tier DDs. New mythic coming with Necrom seems to address that issue better than oakensoul. It lowers LA/HA dmg but boost all the other dmg. That being said it still doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack average DPS is where it should be balance wise according to devs.

So after over a year of improving the game in the direction of making it more accesible and making one bar heavy attack setups stronger where they went from around 70-75k DPS to 90-100k DPS now after they reached a point where average one bar user is easily outperforming average two bar user, slight nerf to one bar heavy attack setups effectivenss is a step in wrong direction? Also fact that a one bar, ranged setup with easy sustain, simple slow paced rotation and high base defense that also have lots of AoE built into it is doing more damage on average than two bar, meele setup with harder sustain, more complex fast paced rotation, lower based defense and lower AoE dmg is sending a right message? Come on let's be real here.

.

Congratulation you just defined why 2 bars gameplay is clunky atm and has been for ages. Also no its not confirmation bias, when one bar builds weren't a thing people who didn't enjoy 2 bars gameplay simply left the game.

AScarlato · April 2023

INM wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

The difference with the light attack nerf is I never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking.

I guess you weren't following the community, nerf/remove weaving is an evergreen topic in this community. It's just a quicksearch here, but there are much much more.

This is about a combat system in its entirety - not a request to nerf specific players using specific builds. And the last comment out of context is probably in response to the devs stated goals of raising the floor and lowering the ceiling between players of varying skill levels.

We also had a poll here recently where some people surprisingly like weaving. And there is now a new mythic where you don’t have to weave in a few months. Sentiments may change with more options to not have to engage with this system.

Finally, the quotes you found may not be from the same people you want to have nerfed now. I know I didn’t ask for weaving to be removed.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:

Test Assumptions:
The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.

To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)

The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:
Wall

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

INM · April 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

This is about a combat system in its entirety - not a request to nerf specific players using specific builds. And the last comment out of context is probably in response to the devs stated goals of raising the floor and lowering the ceiling between players of varying skill levels.

We also had a poll here recently where some people surprisingly like weaving. And there is now a new mythic where you don’t have to weave in a few months.

Finally, the quotes you found may not be from the same people want to have nerfed now. I know I didn’t ask for weaving to be removed.

Well, it's fair and I absolutely understand why people may not like weaving, but many of them were literally coming from "I can't weave = remove it from the game", some people were celebrating u35 due to weaving nerfs even it didn't benefit them in a slightest, because "elitists" has suffered. No one had forced them to weave (and wasn't even necessary and it was proved multiple times by 100k+ parses with 0 light attacks), but they still had expressed their wish to nerf/remove AC from the game.

I just wanted to point out that your claim " never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking" isn't quite true and causticity isn't one-sided.

P.S. You can check this post. (I know it's hard), the dude was so salty about weaving and heavy attacks that he got a few of his accounts banned here : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611314/zos-hear-cry-of-ha-players-so-they-just-destroy-ha#latest

Galeriano · April 2023

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Well one bar builds have not fixed that issue. They just made things worse for those two bar enjoyers who were not top tier DDs. New mythic coming with Necrom seems to address that issue better than oakensoul. It lowers LA/HA dmg but boost all the other dmg. That being said it still doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack average DPS is where it should be balance wise according to devs.

So after over a year of improving the game in the direction of making it more accesible and making one bar heavy attack setups stronger where they went from around 70-75k DPS to 90-100k DPS now after they reached a point where average one bar user is easily outperforming average two bar user, slight nerf to one bar heavy attack setups effectivenss is a step in wrong direction? Also fact that a one bar, ranged setup with easy sustain, simple slow paced rotation and high base defense that also have lots of AoE built into it is doing more damage on average than two bar, meele setup with harder sustain, more complex fast paced rotation, lower based defense and lower AoE dmg is sending a right message? Come on let's be real here.

.

Congratulation you just defined why 2 bars gameplay is clunky atm and has been for ages. Also no its not confirmation bias, when one bar builds weren't a thing people who didn't enjoy 2 bars gameplay simply left the game.

So fast = cluncky for You? Ok that's a one wierd way to look at it.

Yes it is a confirmation bias. As I said before heavy attack setups (including one bar HA) were a thing for quite some time before oakensoul. Nothing was stopping people who didn't like two bar dynamic playstyle to play as heavy attack setups. Nothing other than a fact they didn't like to produce less DPS. People were even soloing vet dungeons on heavy attack setups before oakensoul arrival which proves they were more than viable in real content. The main reason why so many people plays one bar heavy attack setups right now is because of how much DPS they produce.

Fun fact few years ago there was a time period when heavy attack rotations were a meta and it was hated and criticised to the point ZoS had to change that. Belive it or not but there is many people (not just high end players but also mid and low end ones) who find heavy attack rotations slow and boring and they don't want to use them preffering more dynamic and fast paced combat that also feels rewarding due to more steep learning curve. You may say "well if they preffer two bar rotations than they should use them" but the problem is for those who are not experts at that, one bar heavy attack produces way better results so it's becoming a no brainer option wheter they like it or not.

AScarlato · April 2023

INM wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

This is about a combat system in its entirety - not a request to nerf specific players using specific builds. And the last comment out of context is probably in response to the devs stated goals of raising the floor and lowering the ceiling between players of varying skill levels.

We also had a poll here recently where some people surprisingly like weaving. And there is now a new mythic where you don’t have to weave in a few months.

Finally, the quotes you found may not be from the same people want to have nerfed now. I know I didn’t ask for weaving to be removed.

Well, it's fair and I absolutely understand why people may not like weaving, but many of them were literally coming from "I can't weave = remove it from the game", some people were celebrating u35 due to weaving nerfs even it didn't benefit them in a slightest, because "elitists" has suffered. No one had forced them to weave (and wasn't even necessary and it was proved multiple times by 100k+ parses with 0 light attacks), but they still had expressed their wish to nerf/remove AC from the game.

I just wanted to point out that your claim " never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking" isn't quite true and causticity isn't one-sided.

P.S. You can check this post. (I know it's hard), the dude was so salty about weaving and heavy attacks that he got a few of his accounts banned here : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611314/zos-hear-cry-of-ha-players-so-they-just-destroy-ha#latest

I don’t really understand the disjointed ranting from the link so I won’t address it.

For those who called for weaving to be removed, I don’t think asking for a playstyle to be removed is the right move. Again I’m surprised the poll is so close. Maybe those who hate animation cancelling have already left and the still more than half of respondents who dislike the systems play this game for reasons other than the combat, or the ha build allowing them to ignore it made the game fun for them again. I’m not surprised a 9 year old game that appeals to elder scrolls fans may have an aging player base not into twitchy animation cancelling that also results in janky looking and non immersive looking battles.

But now that I know there are people who find this actually fun it’s harder to call for outright removal. But I think oakensoul and the upcoming No-weaving mythic were created to respond to the fact that a majority of the player base probably doesn’t enjoy the combat as it has been.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:

Test Assumptions:
The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.

To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)

The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:
Wall

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:

Test Assumptions:
The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.

To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)

The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:
Wall

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

INM wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

This is about a combat system in its entirety - not a request to nerf specific players using specific builds. And the last comment out of context is probably in response to the devs stated goals of raising the floor and lowering the ceiling between players of varying skill levels.

We also had a poll here recently where some people surprisingly like weaving. And there is now a new mythic where you don’t have to weave in a few months.

Finally, the quotes you found may not be from the same people want to have nerfed now. I know I didn’t ask for weaving to be removed.

Well, it's fair and I absolutely understand why people may not like weaving, but many of them were literally coming from "I can't weave = remove it from the game", some people were celebrating u35 due to weaving nerfs even it didn't benefit them in a slightest, because "elitists" has suffered. No one had forced them to weave (and wasn't even necessary and it was proved multiple times by 100k+ parses with 0 light attacks), but they still had expressed their wish to nerf/remove AC from the game.

I just wanted to point out that your claim " never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking" isn't quite true and causticity isn't one-sided.

P.S. You can check this post. (I know it's hard), the dude was so salty about weaving and heavy attacks that he got a few of his accounts banned here : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611314/zos-hear-cry-of-ha-players-so-they-just-destroy-ha#latest

I don’t really understand the disjointed ranting from the link so I won’t address it.

For those who called for weaving to be removed, I don’t think asking for a playstyle to be removed is the right move. Again I’m surprised the poll is so close. Maybe those who hate animation cancelling have already left and the still more than half of respondents who dislike the systems play this game for reasons other than the combat, or the ha build allowing them to ignore it made the game fun for them again. I’m not surprised a 9 year old game that appeals to elder scrolls fans may have an aging player base not into twitchy animation cancelling that also results in janky looking and non immersive looking battles.

But now that I know there are people who find this actually fun it’s harder to call for outright removal. But I think oakensoul and the upcoming No-weaving mythic were created to respond to the fact that a majority of the player base probably doesn’t enjoy the combat as it has been.

I hate weaving but I don’t want it removed. I don’t give a hoot how others play and don’t care if they are better than me. I’m focused on my own goals of getting a viable dps so I can work on my own solo goals. I think everyone should mind their business and play how they want and as long as others do their jobs and hit the dps who cares show they do it.

AScarlato · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

INM wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

This is about a combat system in its entirety - not a request to nerf specific players using specific builds. And the last comment out of context is probably in response to the devs stated goals of raising the floor and lowering the ceiling between players of varying skill levels.

We also had a poll here recently where some people surprisingly like weaving. And there is now a new mythic where you don’t have to weave in a few months.

Finally, the quotes you found may not be from the same people want to have nerfed now. I know I didn’t ask for weaving to be removed.

Well, it's fair and I absolutely understand why people may not like weaving, but many of them were literally coming from "I can't weave = remove it from the game", some people were celebrating u35 due to weaving nerfs even it didn't benefit them in a slightest, because "elitists" has suffered. No one had forced them to weave (and wasn't even necessary and it was proved multiple times by 100k+ parses with 0 light attacks), but they still had expressed their wish to nerf/remove AC from the game.

I just wanted to point out that your claim " never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking" isn't quite true and causticity isn't one-sided.

P.S. You can check this post. (I know it's hard), the dude was so salty about weaving and heavy attacks that he got a few of his accounts banned here : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611314/zos-hear-cry-of-ha-players-so-they-just-destroy-ha#latest

I don’t really understand the disjointed ranting from the link so I won’t address it.

For those who called for weaving to be removed, I don’t think asking for a playstyle to be removed is the right move. Again I’m surprised the poll is so close. Maybe those who hate animation cancelling have already left and the still more than half of respondents who dislike the systems play this game for reasons other than the combat, or the ha build allowing them to ignore it made the game fun for them again. I’m not surprised a 9 year old game that appeals to elder scrolls fans may have an aging player base not into twitchy animation cancelling that also results in janky looking and non immersive looking battles.

But now that I know there are people who find this actually fun it’s harder to call for outright removal. But I think oakensoul and the upcoming No-weaving mythic were created to respond to the fact that a majority of the player base probably doesn’t enjoy the combat as it has been.

I hate weaving but I don’t want it removed. I don’t give a hoot how others play and don’t care if they are better than me. I’m focused on my own goals of getting a viable dps so I can work on my own solo goals. I think everyone should mind their business and play how they want and as long as others do their jobs and hit the dps who cares show they do it.

Exactly this. Even if a weaving build is amazingly high dps and I’m on my non-meta ha nightblade you would not find me complaining that other player is making my runs easier lol. I just don’t want to feel useless or excluded for being an obvious low dps playstyle if this were even further nerfed.

I actually applaud the devs for brainstorming oakensoul and the new mythic for players like us and hope they remain viable but not at the very top as I do think there should be some link between extra effort/skill and dps output. Just the reward of more dps I think is appropriate doesn’t seem to be in line with the effort/ease vs dps bell curve some players seem to want.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

INM wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

This is about a combat system in its entirety - not a request to nerf specific players using specific builds. And the last comment out of context is probably in response to the devs stated goals of raising the floor and lowering the ceiling between players of varying skill levels.

We also had a poll here recently where some people surprisingly like weaving. And there is now a new mythic where you don’t have to weave in a few months.

Finally, the quotes you found may not be from the same people want to have nerfed now. I know I didn’t ask for weaving to be removed.

Well, it's fair and I absolutely understand why people may not like weaving, but many of them were literally coming from "I can't weave = remove it from the game", some people were celebrating u35 due to weaving nerfs even it didn't benefit them in a slightest, because "elitists" has suffered. No one had forced them to weave (and wasn't even necessary and it was proved multiple times by 100k+ parses with 0 light attacks), but they still had expressed their wish to nerf/remove AC from the game.

I just wanted to point out that your claim " never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking" isn't quite true and causticity isn't one-sided.

P.S. You can check this post. (I know it's hard), the dude was so salty about weaving and heavy attacks that he got a few of his accounts banned here : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611314/zos-hear-cry-of-ha-players-so-they-just-destroy-ha#latest

I don’t really understand the disjointed ranting from the link so I won’t address it.

For those who called for weaving to be removed, I don’t think asking for a playstyle to be removed is the right move. Again I’m surprised the poll is so close. Maybe those who hate animation cancelling have already left and the still more than half of respondents who dislike the systems play this game for reasons other than the combat, or the ha build allowing them to ignore it made the game fun for them again. I’m not surprised a 9 year old game that appeals to elder scrolls fans may have an aging player base not into twitchy animation cancelling that also results in janky looking and non immersive looking battles.

But now that I know there are people who find this actually fun it’s harder to call for outright removal. But I think oakensoul and the upcoming No-weaving mythic were created to respond to the fact that a majority of the player base probably doesn’t enjoy the combat as it has been.

I hate weaving but I don’t want it removed. I don’t give a hoot how others play and don’t care if they are better than me. I’m focused on my own goals of getting a viable dps so I can work on my own solo goals. I think everyone should mind their business and play how they want and as long as others do their jobs and hit the dps who cares show they do it.

Exactly this. Even if a weaving build is amazingly high dps and I’m on my non-meta ha nightblade yiu would but find my complaining that other player is making my runs easier lol. I just don’t want to feel useless or excluded for being an obvious low dps playstyle if this were even further nerfed.

I actually applaud the devs for brainstorming oakensoul and the new mythic for players like us and hope they remain viable but not at the very top as I do think there should be some link between extra effort/skill and dps output. Just the reward of more dps I think is appropriate doesn’t seem to be in line with the effort/ease vs dps bell curve some players seem to want.

Rigjt I don’t need to be the dps master doing 200k dps I don’t care. I just want to reach the point I can do a trial not get made fun of with my guild maybe or start doing some vet duengons and get more transmutes. And my main goal finished the solo arenas on the vet hard modes.

I’m not here to compete against others but really myself.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

INM wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

This is about a combat system in its entirety - not a request to nerf specific players using specific builds. And the last comment out of context is probably in response to the devs stated goals of raising the floor and lowering the ceiling between players of varying skill levels.

We also had a poll here recently where some people surprisingly like weaving. And there is now a new mythic where you don’t have to weave in a few months.

Finally, the quotes you found may not be from the same people want to have nerfed now. I know I didn’t ask for weaving to be removed.

Well, it's fair and I absolutely understand why people may not like weaving, but many of them were literally coming from "I can't weave = remove it from the game", some people were celebrating u35 due to weaving nerfs even it didn't benefit them in a slightest, because "elitists" has suffered. No one had forced them to weave (and wasn't even necessary and it was proved multiple times by 100k+ parses with 0 light attacks), but they still had expressed their wish to nerf/remove AC from the game.

I just wanted to point out that your claim " never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking" isn't quite true and causticity isn't one-sided.

P.S. You can check this post. (I know it's hard), the dude was so salty about weaving and heavy attacks that he got a few of his accounts banned here : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611314/zos-hear-cry-of-ha-players-so-they-just-destroy-ha#latest

I don’t really understand the disjointed ranting from the link so I won’t address it.

For those who called for weaving to be removed, I don’t think asking for a playstyle to be removed is the right move. Again I’m surprised the poll is so close. Maybe those who hate animation cancelling have already left and the still more than half of respondents who dislike the systems play this game for reasons other than the combat, or the ha build allowing them to ignore it made the game fun for them again. I’m not surprised a 9 year old game that appeals to elder scrolls fans may have an aging player base not into twitchy animation cancelling that also results in janky looking and non immersive looking battles.

But now that I know there are people who find this actually fun it’s harder to call for outright removal. But I think oakensoul and the upcoming No-weaving mythic were created to respond to the fact that a majority of the player base probably doesn’t enjoy the combat as it has been.

I hate weaving but I don’t want it removed. I don’t give a hoot how others play and don’t care if they are better than me. I’m focused on my own goals of getting a viable dps so I can work on my own solo goals. I think everyone should mind their business and play how they want and as long as others do their jobs and hit the dps who cares show they do it.

Exactly this. Even if a weaving build is amazingly high dps and I’m on my non-meta ha nightblade you would not find me complaining that other player is making my runs easier lol. I just don’t want to feel useless or excluded for being an obvious low dps playstyle if this were even further nerfed.

I actually applaud the devs for brainstorming oakensoul and the new mythic for players like us and hope they remain viable but not at the very top as I do think there should be some link between extra effort/skill and dps output. Just the reward of more dps I think is appropriate doesn’t seem to be in line with the effort/ease vs dps bell curve some players seem to want.

What they should do is just give a massive boost to light attacks 🤷🏻‍♂️ and the problem is solved.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:

Test Assumptions:
The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.

To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)

The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:
Wall

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Im not trying to defend it. I'm trying to quell people's fears that they will be heavily impacted by this change.

If you're doing 25k dps, a 6% reduction will bring you to 23.5k dps. That is far from a "massive hit" and you should still have no issue doing any of the things you were already doing.

Galeriano · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:

Test Assumptions:
The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.

To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)

The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:
Wall

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

AScarlato · April 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:

Test Assumptions:
The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.

To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)

The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:
Wall

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Im not trying to defend it.

If you're doing 25k dps, a 6% reduction will bring you to 23.5k dps. That is far from a "massive hit" and you should still have no issue doing any of the things you were already doing.

I’m not sure what your goal is if not to defend it. [snip]

At some point you said your point was to let people know it’s not that bad of a nerf. We are saying we don’t want to be nerfed and a lot of people using this already aren’t top end players.

Yet you seem extra invested in this topic [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Stanelis · April 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Well one bar builds have not fixed that issue. They just made things worse for those two bar enjoyers who were not top tier DDs. New mythic coming with Necrom seems to address that issue better than oakensoul. It lowers LA/HA dmg but boost all the other dmg. That being said it still doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack average DPS is where it should be balance wise according to devs.

So after over a year of improving the game in the direction of making it more accesible and making one bar heavy attack setups stronger where they went from around 70-75k DPS to 90-100k DPS now after they reached a point where average one bar user is easily outperforming average two bar user, slight nerf to one bar heavy attack setups effectivenss is a step in wrong direction? Also fact that a one bar, ranged setup with easy sustain, simple slow paced rotation and high base defense that also have lots of AoE built into it is doing more damage on average than two bar, meele setup with harder sustain, more complex fast paced rotation, lower based defense and lower AoE dmg is sending a right message? Come on let's be real here.

.

Congratulation you just defined why 2 bars gameplay is clunky atm and has been for ages. Also no its not confirmation bias, when one bar builds weren't a thing people who didn't enjoy 2 bars gameplay simply left the game.

So fast = cluncky for You? Ok that's a one wierd way to look at it.

Yes it is a confirmation bias. As I said before heavy attack setups (including one bar HA) were a thing for quite some time before oakensoul. Nothing was stopping people who didn't like two bar dynamic playstyle to play as heavy attack setups. Nothing other than a fact they didn't like to produce less DPS. People were even soloing vet dungeons on heavy attack setups before oakensoul arrival which proves they were more than viable in real content. The main reason why so many people plays one bar heavy attack setups right now is because of how much DPS they produce.

Fun fact few years ago there was a time period when heavy attack rotations were a meta and it was hated and criticised to the point ZoS had to change that. Belive it or not but there is many people (not just high end players but also mid and low end ones) who find heavy attack rotations slow and boring and they don't want to use them preffering more dynamic and fast paced combat that also feels rewarding due to more steep learning curve.

You may say "well if they preffer two bar rotations than they should use them" but the problem is for those who are not experts at that, one bar heavy attack produces way better results so it's becoming a no brainer option wheter they like it or not.

Then if you like that fast paced combat and if people don't then how is it a problem if the two playstyle are fine ? Because from the other post it didn't seem you found enjoyment out of that 2 bar gameplay you speak of.

Also it is pretty obvious beginners should go for one bar setup if their goal is to be optimal, as it is easier by design. I mean I don't even know what you re arguing about a this point : it is supposed to be easier and an option for people who simply see the game as a video game and a place of enjoyment and not a place where you need to be a keyboard ninja to take on content. Why do you care if one dude is having a hard time in solo (such as veteran arenas or 4 ppl dungeons) or low man content because he has issues with 2 bars gameplay or actually enjoy himself by using an easier build to play ? It doesn't impact your gameplay and actually quueues may be shorter for you to get into content with people that won't ruin your days. Because I started TESO a long time ago and I very well remember the days when 4 ppl content was difficult and when groups disbanded left and right, when sustain was a nightmare, etc.

Obviously I m only talking on a PVE standpoint, not a PVP one..

Galeriano · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

INM wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

This is about a combat system in its entirety - not a request to nerf specific players using specific builds. And the last comment out of context is probably in response to the devs stated goals of raising the floor and lowering the ceiling between players of varying skill levels.

We also had a poll here recently where some people surprisingly like weaving. And there is now a new mythic where you don’t have to weave in a few months.

Finally, the quotes you found may not be from the same people want to have nerfed now. I know I didn’t ask for weaving to be removed.

Well, it's fair and I absolutely understand why people may not like weaving, but many of them were literally coming from "I can't weave = remove it from the game", some people were celebrating u35 due to weaving nerfs even it didn't benefit them in a slightest, because "elitists" has suffered. No one had forced them to weave (and wasn't even necessary and it was proved multiple times by 100k+ parses with 0 light attacks), but they still had expressed their wish to nerf/remove AC from the game.

I just wanted to point out that your claim " never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking" isn't quite true and causticity isn't one-sided.

P.S. You can check this post. (I know it's hard), the dude was so salty about weaving and heavy attacks that he got a few of his accounts banned here : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611314/zos-hear-cry-of-ha-players-so-they-just-destroy-ha#latest

I don’t really understand the disjointed ranting from the link so I won’t address it.

For those who called for weaving to be removed, I don’t think asking for a playstyle to be removed is the right move. Again I’m surprised the poll is so close. Maybe those who hate animation cancelling have already left and the still more than half of respondents who dislike the systems play this game for reasons other than the combat, or the ha build allowing them to ignore it made the game fun for them again. I’m not surprised a 9 year old game that appeals to elder scrolls fans may have an aging player base not into twitchy animation cancelling that also results in janky looking and non immersive looking battles.

But now that I know there are people who find this actually fun it’s harder to call for outright removal. But I think oakensoul and the upcoming No-weaving mythic were created to respond to the fact that a majority of the player base probably doesn’t enjoy the combat as it has been.

I hate weaving but I don’t want it removed. I don’t give a hoot how others play and don’t care if they are better than me. I’m focused on my own goals of getting a viable dps so I can work on my own solo goals. I think everyone should mind their business and play how they want and as long as others do their jobs and hit the dps who cares show they do it.

Exactly this. Even if a weaving build is amazingly high dps and I’m on my non-meta ha nightblade you would not find me complaining that other player is making my runs easier lol. I just don’t want to feel useless or excluded for being an obvious low dps playstyle if this were even further nerfed.

I actually applaud the devs for brainstorming oakensoul and the new mythic for players like us and hope they remain viable but not at the very top as I do think there should be some link between extra effort/skill and dps output. Just the reward of more dps I think is appropriate doesn’t seem to be in line with the effort/ease vs dps bell curve some players seem to want.

What they should do is just give a massive boost to light attacks 🤷🏻‍♂️ and the problem is solved.

It's not. Light attacks are just cherry on top in two bar dynamic rotations they're not core of the DPS though. Right now they are responsible for less than 10% DPS if we consider ulti gen they add it will be a bit more but for that ulti gen You need just 1 light attack every 9 seconds. There are examples of people doing 105-110k with no light attacks and ultimates used throughout whole fight. Just look at the latest changes, light attacks lost acces to 40% buff from empower and their dmg scaling was capped yet dynamic two bar rotations DPS remained basically the same.

People thinking that it's light attack weaving that elevates two bar dynamic rotations so high are extremly wrong.