Oakensoul | Pain management | "Accessibility." > How is this possibly bad for the game?

Artim_X · March 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

Oakensoul is only part of the issue. These are three combat caps from a 1 bar Necro HA build. One with Oakensoul and the other just swapping Oakensoul for a mid-tier Mythic like Death Dealer's Fete, then the third dropping all CP passives and slottables (Wrathful Strikes, Deadly Aim, Backstabber, Weapons Expert). For all three caps, I held down RMB the entire time and pressed a skill every 2 seconds (I counted). I had absolutely no idea what I was doing, so I'm sure I had a sloppy rotation and wasn't properly weaving HAs

1bar HA + Oakensoul

1bar HA + Death Dealer's Fete

1bar HA + Death Dealer's Fete + No CP

look at those Resource drains. ~250 Magicka drain per second... with 85k DPS... That demonstrates just how little the build is doing in actions and yet can still reach 85K DPS.

Oakensoul literally doubles the damage your HA does. From 15k DPS -> 30k DPS

even without Oakensoul, a 1 bar HA build that drains ~240 Magicka per second, activates 1 skill every 2 seconds, and deals 100% damage in AOE, from range, gets to 54k DPS

No CP, no Empower (the HA specific buff) and we are still at 45k DPS

Skills don't cancel the HA channel; instead queuing the skill. This is subtle, but is highly accessible. Not necessarily an issue, but comparing that to LA weaving, you can really see the appeal.

It's no wonder players love this build. Imaging you're 200CP player, with a 10-20k DPS build that spams 7-8 skills, drains > 1.5k resources per second, and requires a complex rotation/weaving/positioning. Now, you can put on Base Game Dungeon gear and hold RMB to jump all the way up to > 60k DPS.

1-bar builds were not designed to be fully functional before the introduction of Oakensoul, which is specifically designed to make that playstyle functional (major damage buffs, major resistance buffs, more skills ticking away, etc.). Sure some content creators got creative especially with werewolf rotations, but to compare an Oakensoul heavy attack parse to two heavy attack parses that are purposefully only utilizing one-bar with other mythics is beyond biased.

DarcyMardin · March 2023

I agree heartily with the OP. I am old (75) and have various limitations due to my age. But I have supported this game since beta and maintain 4 accounts and 3 ESO+ subscriptions. I love my one-bar options with oakensoul and love being able to do some of the content (certainly not *all*) that I physically could not complete prior to having this item.

It’s already been nerfed once. Please leave it alone and let us play the game the way we choose!

disintegr8 · March 2023

Due to high ping rates, Oakensoul enabling a one bar build to be competitive is a good thing. I might have as much skill as that person with 100k DPS and great ping but will forever be held back by mediocre connectivity that I can't do anything about.

One of the major hurdles I face is bar swapping; sometimes the lag just means that it doesn't work. If a light attack in a rotation doesn't work, you just keep going with a drop in DPS, but if the bar swap doesn't work, you're wasting your time. Removing a major point of failure is a good thing.

TaSheen · March 2023

disintegr8 wrote: »

Due to high ping rates, Oakensoul enabling a one bar build to be competitive is a good thing. I might have as much skill as that person with 100k DPS and great ping but will forever be held back by mediocre connectivity that I can't do anything about.

One of the major hurdles I face is bar swapping; sometimes the lag just means that it doesn't work. If a light attack in a rotation doesn't work, you just keep going with a drop in DPS, but if the bar swap doesn't work, you're wasting your time. Removing a major point of failure is a good thing.

Oh, I'm right there with you on ping and not being able to reliably bar swap....

Billium813 · March 2023

LOL I'm not even activating any other skills now and I'm spec'd pure Stamina... what's the point in doing anything else, or even being Mag, when I can get 70k DPS from anywhere within 28m at the cost of 0 resources, and hit in an AOE?

I can see why content is jam packed with this build atm. You can go afk, shoot the breeze on discord, and play with your phone while in the Trial.

It's too bad though that my boi Bow just can't keep up

tincanman · March 2023

allochthons wrote: »

....
2. Making content easier or even possible to access for people with disabilities.

....

How is this possibly bad for the game?

...

It's very good for the game: improving accessibility and reducing strain and pain for many players.

It seems to bother a few mid-tier players where there's not much difference in their performance with 2-bar and 1-bar HA builds. But it would be extremely short-sighted for this group not to press forward with developing their 2-bar skill since that is the only way they will get into the highest tier of play with the highest damage and greatest versatility. Not to mention that moment of happy self-satisfaction which comes from mastery in any area of the game.

It's all moot though: once the spreadsheet balancers see the dungeon/trial completions being dominated by 1-bar HA attack builds it WILL be destroyed - history alone demonstrates that zos doesn't like it when players tend to use the same build or skill set.

So expect it to be nerfed any time within the next few months and grab what you can from the game during this time of its limited viability.

What would be great is if the devs recognise the practical utility for many players in these 1-bar builds and how they've increased accessibility for those who would otherwise struggle and expand or extend the 1-bar options even if/when they nerf the current storm/sergeant/oakensoul one.

TaSheen · March 2023

tincanman wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

....
2. Making content easier or even possible to access for people with disabilities.

....

How is this possibly bad for the game?

...

It's very good for the game: improving accessibility and reducing strain and pain for many players.

It seems to bother a few mid-tier players where there's not much difference in their performance with 2-bar and 1-bar HA builds. But it would be extremely short-sighted for this group not to press forward with developing their 2-bar skill since that is the only way they will get into the highest tier of play with the highest damage and greatest versatility. Not to mention that moment of happy self-satisfaction which comes from mastery in any area of the game.

It's all moot though: once the spreadsheet balancers see the dungeon/trial completions being dominated by 1-bar HA attack builds it WILL be destroyed - history alone demonstrates that zos doesn't like it when players tend to use the same build or skill set.

So expect it to be nerfed any time within the next few months and grab what you can from the game during this time of its limited viability.

What would be great is if the devs recognise the practical utility for many players in these 1-bar builds and how they've increased accessibility for those who would otherwise struggle and expand or extend the 1-bar options even if/when they nerf the current storm/sergeant/oakensoul one.

I hope it doesn't go there.... I don't use HA because I just don't like it. I have a "mini-rotation" on my one-bar Oak builds (wardens for the most part plus a couple of sorcs and one templar; my CP level girls - 6 wardens, 3 sorcs, 1 templar for now). Oak means I can actually PLAY with massive satellite ping. I will really be disappointed (perhaps even to the point of dropping 3 annual subs) if it gets nerfed again.

[For context - I solo, I don't do any group content because sat ping is just.... ugly.... and I don't feel it's fair to dump that on others in group content.]

tincanman · March 2023

TaSheen wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

....
2. Making content easier or even possible to access for people with disabilities.

....

How is this possibly bad for the game?

...

It's very good for the game: improving accessibility and reducing strain and pain for many players.

It seems to bother a few mid-tier players where there's not much difference in their performance with 2-bar and 1-bar HA builds. But it would be extremely short-sighted for this group not to press forward with developing their 2-bar skill since that is the only way they will get into the highest tier of play with the highest damage and greatest versatility. Not to mention that moment of happy self-satisfaction which comes from mastery in any area of the game.

It's all moot though: once the spreadsheet balancers see the dungeon/trial completions being dominated by 1-bar HA attack builds it WILL be destroyed - history alone demonstrates that zos doesn't like it when players tend to use the same build or skill set.

So expect it to be nerfed any time within the next few months and grab what you can from the game during this time of its limited viability.

What would be great is if the devs recognise the practical utility for many players in these 1-bar builds and how they've increased accessibility for those who would otherwise struggle and expand or extend the 1-bar options even if/when they nerf the current storm/sergeant/oakensoul one.

I hope it doesn't go there.... I don't use HA because I just don't like it. I have a "mini-rotation" on my one-bar Oak builds (wardens for the most part plus a couple of sorcs and one templar; my CP level girls - 6 wardens, 3 sorcs, 1 templar for now). Oak means I can actually PLAY with massive satellite ping. I will really be disappointed (perhaps even to the point of dropping 3 annual subs) if it gets nerfed again.

[For context - I solo, I don't do any group content because sat ping is just.... ugly.... and I don't feel it's fair to dump that on others in group content.]

I hope I'm wrong about incoming nerfs - and right about extending the possibilities of 1-bar builds.

TaSheen · March 2023

tincanman wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

....
2. Making content easier or even possible to access for people with disabilities.

....

How is this possibly bad for the game?

...

It's very good for the game: improving accessibility and reducing strain and pain for many players.

It seems to bother a few mid-tier players where there's not much difference in their performance with 2-bar and 1-bar HA builds. But it would be extremely short-sighted for this group not to press forward with developing their 2-bar skill since that is the only way they will get into the highest tier of play with the highest damage and greatest versatility. Not to mention that moment of happy self-satisfaction which comes from mastery in any area of the game.

It's all moot though: once the spreadsheet balancers see the dungeon/trial completions being dominated by 1-bar HA attack builds it WILL be destroyed - history alone demonstrates that zos doesn't like it when players tend to use the same build or skill set.

So expect it to be nerfed any time within the next few months and grab what you can from the game during this time of its limited viability.

What would be great is if the devs recognise the practical utility for many players in these 1-bar builds and how they've increased accessibility for those who would otherwise struggle and expand or extend the 1-bar options even if/when they nerf the current storm/sergeant/oakensoul one.

I hope it doesn't go there.... I don't use HA because I just don't like it. I have a "mini-rotation" on my one-bar Oak builds (wardens for the most part plus a couple of sorcs and one templar; my CP level girls - 6 wardens, 3 sorcs, 1 templar for now). Oak means I can actually PLAY with massive satellite ping. I will really be disappointed (perhaps even to the point of dropping 3 annual subs) if it gets nerfed again.

[For context - I solo, I don't do any group content because sat ping is just.... ugly.... and I don't feel it's fair to dump that on others in group content.]

I hope I'm wrong about incoming nerfs - and right about extending the possibilities of 1-bar builds.

I hope you are right too. *sigh* I'm - comfortable - in this game for the first time in 6 years....

Djennku · March 2023

I just want to say, it's completely acceptable to not like using oakensoul, it's also completely ok to love it. What's not ok is to force people to feel the way you do about something you don't like, or complain about something you don't like when you aren't going to use it anyway.

People are allowed to have choices. If you don't like it, don't use it, and let others who do enjoy it, enjoy it without the peer pressure and stress. Simple as that.

Nothing is for everyone, and THATS what ESO is about. Choice.

TaSheen · March 2023

Djennku wrote: »

I just want to say, it's completely acceptable to not like using oakensoul, it's also completely ok to love it. What's not ok is to force people to feel the way you do about something you don't like, or complain about something you don't like when you aren't going to use it anyway.

People are allowed to have choices. If you don't like it, don't use it, and let others who do enjoy it, enjoy it without the peer pressure and stress. Simple as that.

Nothing is for everyone, and THATS what ESO is about. Choice.

Very well said. And an important response obviously. Thank you.

Nestor · March 2023

tincanman wrote: »

It's all moot though: once the spreadsheet balancers see the dungeon/trial completions being dominated by 1-bar HA attack builds it WILL be destroyed - history alone demonstrates that zos doesn't like it when players tend to use the same build or skill set.

So expect it to be nerfed any time within the next few months and grab what you can from the game during this time of its limited viability.

I dont know about that. Only a small percentage of players do Trials, and Trials folks tend to chase the Meta, which results in the similar builds you mention. Does not matter if they are one two bar builds or not. However, overland, and dungeons have a much higher diversity of one bar builds.

So Oaken Soul is doing what it is supposed to, make players viable for most content without having to deal with the complexities of 2 Bar Builds. And, still creating a need or desire to chase more complex builds for more difficult content.

And, those players who are complaining about mid tier DPS from the Rank and File need to realize that having more people to do Trials and DLC Vet Dungeons with is a good thing.

Freelancer_ESO · March 2023

tincanman wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

....
2. Making content easier or even possible to access for people with disabilities.

....

How is this possibly bad for the game?

...

It's very good for the game: improving accessibility and reducing strain and pain for many players.

It seems to bother a few mid-tier players where there's not much difference in their performance with 2-bar and 1-bar HA builds. But it would be extremely short-sighted for this group not to press forward with developing their 2-bar skill since that is the only way they will get into the highest tier of play with the highest damage and greatest versatility. Not to mention that moment of happy self-satisfaction which comes from mastery in any area of the game.

It's all moot though: once the spreadsheet balancers see the dungeon/trial completions being dominated by 1-bar HA attack builds it WILL be destroyed - history alone demonstrates that zos doesn't like it when players tend to use the same build or skill set.

So expect it to be nerfed any time within the next few months and grab what you can from the game during this time of its limited viability.

What would be great is if the devs recognise the practical utility for many players in these 1-bar builds and how they've increased accessibility for those who would otherwise struggle and expand or extend the 1-bar options even if/when they nerf the current storm/sergeant/oakensoul one.

I hope it doesn't go there.... I don't use HA because I just don't like it. I have a "mini-rotation" on my one-bar Oak builds (wardens for the most part plus a couple of sorcs and one templar; my CP level girls - 6 wardens, 3 sorcs, 1 templar for now). Oak means I can actually PLAY with massive satellite ping. I will really be disappointed (perhaps even to the point of dropping 3 annual subs) if it gets nerfed again.

[For context - I solo, I don't do any group content because sat ping is just.... ugly.... and I don't feel it's fair to dump that on others in group content.]

I hope I'm wrong about incoming nerfs - and right about extending the possibilities of 1-bar builds.

I'd assume you'd hold off on the nerfs until you knew if the new Chapter's items changed what people did. You don't want to annoy people with nerfs if you don't need to do so especially if they might be on the fence about buying your Chapter.

(Further, it might actually be quite hard to change player choices in gearing if they are on that build via nerfs. This isn't like it's going to be a case where you change the set of gear you are using and maybe an ability or two and otherwise do everything the same this is you change your entire style of play. That's going to take a significant nerf to do in many cases which might make people just plain quit.)

My guess is we'll get a new mythic with the Chapter that offers buffs like Oakensoul does that doesn't cost a bar but, does cost something that can be useful in PvP to prevent it from being too problematic in that area.

I'd assume that the endless dungeon would have something that would be one bar friendly to ensure that it pulls in a wide range of players.

allochthons · March 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

...And this truth will unfortunately be shouted down by the hordes of players that want their "I win button" cause they can't handle doing 40k DPS on non-Trial content and can't put in the work to get a good rotation for Trial content.
...

I think you're ignoring the original post (I'm the OP).
I stated specifically that I hit roughly the same with both my 2-Bar builds and my 1-bar. I can do the same content with both builds. (70-80k, best parse is 90.)

With my 2-bar builds, I can maybe do two trials a week, separated by a few days, and only for 2-3 hours per day. And the rest of the time my playing is questing or overland easy stuff.

With my 1-bar, I did 3 trials TODAY, starting with a 3-hour vDSR prog where we got Taleria down to 15%. I am participating in two vet progs. I physically CAN NOT DO THAT when playing a 2-bar build.

Oakensoul has literally tripled the amount I can contribute to the trial community.

I don't want a "I win button." I want to play the game and not be held back by pain. I pay just as much for this game as anyone else. I'm CP2000, I have a gawd-awful amount of hours into it. I've put in the work. You don't acknowledge any of this. Instead, you keep bringing up these entitled wanna-be players, which frankly I have seen very few of.

Why? Honestly, think about it. Why do you return to this?

allochthons · March 2023

TaSheen wrote: »

There's actually a third accessibility issue that oakensoul alleviates at least to some degree: high ping. Which is one of my problems; the other is inability to "master" twitchy combat due to aging reflexes.

I love oakensoul; I'd also love to get the last one I need, but the damn crab boss is being crabby!

This is an excellent point. I too have pretty high ping. There are times I'm hitting a skill 4-6 times to get it to fire, and bar swaps happen so slowly I've moved on to another skill and the threading gets messed up, causing the incorrect skills to actually get cast.

tincanman wrote: »

It's all moot though: once the spreadsheet balancers see the dungeon/trial completions being dominated by 1-bar HA attack builds it WILL be destroyed - history alone demonstrates that zos doesn't like it when players tend to use the same build or skill set.

So expect it to be nerfed any time within the next few months and grab what you can from the game during this time of its limited viability.

What would be great is if the devs recognise the practical utility for many players in these 1-bar builds and how they've increased accessibility for those who would otherwise struggle and expand or extend the 1-bar options even if/when they nerf the current storm/sergeant/oakensoul one.

This honestly is one of the reasons I made this post: give the developers a concrete example they can point to and show their managers of how this mythic is doing a great job of meeting their accessibility (as in disability) goals.

ADarklore wrote: »

Oakensoul not only helps those with physical disabilities, but those with mental impairment as well. I know a lot of people with anxieties can be triggered by the need to constant bar-swap in combat, so Oakensoul was a definite boon to them as well.

This is one I hadn't thought of. Thank you.

ArchangelIsraphel · March 2023

OP, I'm with you on this 100%. Even though I don't use oakensoul myself, it has been the answer to a prayer for my aging parents who still love to game. My dad is in his 70's, my mom is in her mid 60's. Dad has visual issues, mum has severe arthritis in her hands that prevents her from pulling the kind of DPS she used to when we'd game together when I was younger on other games.

Now, the thing is, she still CAN pull those numbers if she pushes herself to the point of severe discomfort. Oakensoul let's her do decent dps without making her joints swell to the point of agony, so that she can experience the game by my side and do harder content that she wants to do.

ESO has a very varied fan base. Supporting that variety by giving accessibility options to those with physical, mental, or other issues allows eso to be enjoyed by people who cannot play other games because those games are limited and unsupportive in their perspectives. If we are to be progressive in gaming, it is high time to consider the fact that gaming is not only for the young or able bodied, but also for those who do their best to surpass their limitations. Let's give those people a hand up instead of pushing them down.

thorwyn · March 2023

Seriously, this entire thread is bait.
Oakensoul is in the game, it won't be changed, you can enjoy playing it as much as you want, noone is forcing anyone to bar swap, everything is great. So what are we even trying to discuss here? OP knows that there are different points of view when it comes to the effect of HA builds to the game. So maybe just accept those other opinions and refrain from stirring up yet another discussion with the usual stack of subliminal ad hominem attacks and repetitive exchange of polemical buzz words and virtue signaling from both sides.
The discussion about oakensoul has long run its course and is leading nowhere. It is not even possible to discuss the impact of the ring on a rational basis anymore because the slightest objection is going to get stomped into the ground.

robpr · March 2023

thorwyn wrote: »

Seriously, this entire thread is bait.
Oakensoul is in the game, it won't be changed

Through entire history of the game, it surely can. For example, at some point devs can look at one spreadsheet decide that Empower and heavy attack bonus damage sets should not apply to every tick of the channel. They can remove potion accessible buffs or heroism or even Empower itself. There are several ways to change it without reducing completely its power in total (shifting some of the buffs to pots or specific skill on the bar)

This is an example, put down your torches. Just because I think this item is bad for the health of the game's combat system in the long run, doesn't mean I want it do be nerfed.

Liguar · March 2023

tincanman wrote: »

It's all moot though: once the spreadsheet balancers see the dungeon/trial completions being dominated by 1-bar HA attack builds it WILL be destroyed - history alone demonstrates that zos doesn't like it when players tend to use the same build or skill set.

So expect it to be nerfed any time within the next few months and grab what you can from the game during this time of its limited viability.

What would be great is if the devs recognise the practical utility for many players in these 1-bar builds and how they've increased accessibility for those who would otherwise struggle and expand or extend the 1-bar options even if/when they nerf the current storm/sergeant/oakensoul one.

If a build is overwhelmingly popular while still being far from the top dps, for multiple reasons, then one would hope that the devs see it as something positive that could be expanded on.

If it really is a problem that it is too many play lightning sorcs, then the solution for more diversity of builds should not be to nerf lightning staff builds but rather buff other weapons and set combinations for HA.

Kesstryl · March 2023

Dr_Con wrote: »

it's only bad in the sense that it removes any sort of crossover into light-attack weaving, it locks people into a specific rotation that has a lower damage cap

This damage amount, while easier to obtain mechanically speaking, is objectively lower than 2 bar builds. So it really becomes an issue when you have DPS slots being taken up by oakensoul players who x'd up first when you have 120k dps who could have come who x'd up later.

Additionally there's some groups telling their players to get oakensoul, these players were already doing fine dps at 100k-120k, but 90k is a baseline that doesn't require a cmx parse to realistically expect. Players themselves should want to not use oakensoul, and to instead use 2 bar builds so that when they become better players they will parse higher, but many might just want to get into content with their friends faster or are just not good at dpsing.

Missing out on having skills to use dots is a huge downside to oakenbuilds (since you can get buffs like brutality and minor force from applying dots), but oaken is not without other benefits- especially when it comes to being tanky.

but at the end of the day, 90k dps is still 90k dps, no matter how you get it...

P.S. Oakensoul has nothing to do with accessibility features, and people doing trifectas in oakensoul builds would be able to do them in non-oakensoul builds. If you play DPS and have mained it but when you do /played on your main you've spent months playing the game but can't break 60k despite your best efforts, it's probably time to consider either getting oakensoul or reaching out to someone to coach you on your rotation/build

I'd like to point out that these people that are implicitly being told to Git Gud are saying that they have pain and disability issues that prevent them from doing standard high AMP rotations. Read what is actually being said and have compassion for people with chronic pain and impairments that can't sustain a normal 2 bar DPS rotation.

Runefang · March 2023

Oakensoul HA build with storm master and sergeants mail is OP though. You can have infinite sustain, tank level resists, high health all while doing great AOE and ST damage.

Forget accessibility / gatekeeping, there is no build that gets everything like that. The only trade off you make is your willingness to go from 80-120 APM to 30-40.

Carcharodontosaurus · March 2023

Oakensoul isn't really the issue, these builds would be here even without oaken. Here is a parse I did with my dk heavy attack build. It hits the same numbers (80k+) with about the same effort as oakensoul, just with a bar switch in between. HA and skill, repeat as you cycle through skills.

And I made a lot of mistakes in this parse, cutting off heavy attacks early, letting empower drop off. I have full confidence this build could hit 90k and that would be completely without oakensoul.

Oakensoul is an accessability feature, almost every buff it grants that matters can be gained elsewhere, it just cuts down on time.

Red_chimera_oni · March 2023

"Oakensoul - How is this possibly bad for the game?"

It's not.
Top fake players are the problem for the game. There are to much players who are 100% fake players. They are good, only because others are better and they carry this fake players.

So many, many players have say to me: "Oakensoul is bad" but until today. Not even one player have show me why. Not even one!
I allways say, come same trial as me, same run, and show me why oakensoul is bad.

So many, many players have say to me: "go make vCR with oakensoul" and i go. I make vCR+1/2/3

In all trials i did with Oakensoul. Theres only one where i was 7°worse dps of 8 dd.s. it was in vCR+3 (Oakensoul was bad... But, 1 player with 2 bars was worse then me. Then the problem as 2 players and not oakensoul)
In all other trial, im allways in top4 dps players. Allways.

I did vSS HM, vKA HM and some other stuff. And in this cases, i was allways top1 dps and i was not the player with more deaths.

Oakensoul is a perfect item for some players and i will finish with this:
If any HA build is making more DPS then you with 2bars, then the problem is your rotation\items. HA builds, will lose in dps everytime for players with perfect rotation. If you use 2bars and you do less DPS then HA builds go trainne your rotation. **- By @Zaan's**

Oakensoul is not bad for the game.
Fake 2bar players are the real problem for the game. Even worse, when they can buy rides to say later: "im 100% better then you"

Edit:
Last night in discord, raid leader ask 1DD for vCR+3. I reply and say: +dd
.... He keep me out only because i use Oakensoul... I did and i finish vCR+3 before He don't... Sad!

Durian · March 2023

I came back to ESO because of Oakensoul / One Bar builds.

Red_chimera_oni · March 2023

Durian wrote: »

I came back to ESO because of Oakensoul / One Bar builds.

If you wanna make part of world record team and be one of the best meta player Then you will need 2bars.
Once again, 2 bars will be allways better then one bar build. Allways. all you need is practice.

But if you enjoy the game and don't care at all about meta... Then you can do it with oakensoul one bar. Dont allow fake players tell "you're not good enought'.

Durian · March 2023

_Yulan_ wrote: »

Durian wrote: »

I came back to ESO because of Oakensoul / One Bar builds.

If you wanna make part of world record team and be one of the best meta player Then you will need 2bars.
Once again, 2 bars will be allways better then one bar build. Allways. all you need is practice.

But if you enjoy the game and don't care at all about meta... Then you can do it with oakensoul one bar. Dont allow fake players tell "you're not good enought'.

Yes, I don't care about meta and I dislike weaving.

Liguar · March 2023

I also think it's relevant to say this is not a new thing.

I started pretty late in WoW, just 15 years ago lol, but it was the same thing there. You could play how you like through the game but when it came to raiding there were higher standards to be met. Which is fair.

However, even though most classes/specs could effectively raid, and different raids/encounters might favour one spec over another for mechanical reasons, there was still a lot of pointless condescension towards specs that were considered easier. Pet specs, arcane mages and whatnot.

This was so entrenched in certain players that they would refuse to play specs that they considered less good, whether they could pull off the better spec or not. This was never a problem in the top guilds doing world/server first progression, they played what was best for each encounter regardless. But average guilds that were progressing at a reasonable pace were gatekeeping themselves.

And here, since the easier builds are not even competitive at the very top, the bias against players using them seems even more petty.

Red_chimera_oni · March 2023

Ligar wrote: »

"...And here, since the easier builds are not even competitive at the very top..."

Lol. Players with perfect rotation don't even care or talk about oakensoul. This is pointeless for them cuz they know.... Oakensoul will not be better then 2 bars. Never! They dont even argument about this.

But... What's competitive for you? How many players can "compete" with world record team? This guys are the top of competetive. How many 2bar pro players have the balls to go try make better? Lol. To many 2bars pro players are not even allow to dream about that. Cuz they are weak to try make better. Even in dreams.

And you, and so many of you... Wanna say oakensoul is not competitive? Lol. Vs who???

I did vRG in 16minutes. My best speed run!
I did vCR+2 in 17 minutes. My best score in vCR+2 etc....

Oakensoul don't have place in world record teams? Ofc not. Wtf.lol
But... Can oakensoul be better then so many player with good rotation? Yes. Without any question at all.

So... We are talking about what kind of competitive in here? What's very top for you?

Go hunt godslayer? I can do it and you can do it
Go hunt GH? I can do it and you can do it
Etc...
Go complete vSS HM in 5 minutes? I will never do it. Not even 90% of all players in here.

So.... The problem is Oakensoul.... Or fake top players like i say from start?

Yazrz · March 2023

_Yulan_ wrote: »

Durian wrote: »

I came back to ESO because of Oakensoul / One Bar builds.

If you wanna make part of world record team and be one of the best meta player Then you will need 2bars.
Once again, 2 bars will be allways better then one bar build. Allways. all you need is practice.

But if you enjoy the game and don't care at all about meta... Then you can do it with oakensoul one bar. Dont allow fake players tell "you're not good enought'.

That is the current meta, yes, but it does not have to be the case.

It could be more interesting to have a variety of possible builds also in the meta. E.g. having one bar for single target and switch to another bar for AOE, as I assume initially was intended with the two bar setup.

As @Liguar pointed out, the issue is that many people chase the meta, even if not skilled enough to pull it off. So having a more diverse meta would allow for a greater diversity being acceptable in general.

Liguar · March 2023

_Yulan_ wrote: »

Lol. Players with perfect rotation don't even care or talk about oakensoul. This is pointeless for them cuz they know.... Oakensoul will not be better then 2 bars. Never! They dont even argument about this.

I wasn't disagreeing with you Yulan

But I might say that "competitive" is not limited to the top, it's also about how you feel with respect to your peers. Clearly some people like @Runefang say that it is OP because the effort to reward ratio is not the same as a 2 bar LA weaving build.

My question to Runefang is then why it has to be? If it is not being used at the top, why is effort-reward even a valid metric? In the middle people should be able to play whatever they find fun, that is sufficient for the content they are participating in.