Oakensoul | Pain management | "Accessibility." > How is this possibly bad for the game?

allochthons · March 2023

I'm one of the people who is benefiting greatly from 1-bar HA builds.

One of the greatest confusions in this argument is what people mean when they use the word "accessibility." Even the devs often seem confused about this.
1. Making harder content accessible to lower level skill players,
OR
2. Making content easier or even possible to access for people with disabilities.

I'm talking about #2.

I'm a fairly decent player. I have healers, tanks and DPS on every class (except nightblade tank). With my best 2-bar build (A stamDK), I am hitting mid 70's DPS. But I can't parse for hours to improve that simply because my hands can not take the punishment. Prior to Oakensoul, I could maybe do one or two progs a year, because my hands couldn't take more. Doing more than one or two lengthy trials (like a prog) a week simply wasn't possible, and on the days between those trials, I'd just do overland questing because I simply was not capable of even running dungeons with the pain in my hands.

Now I have an Oakensorc, and a 1-bar warden. I'm in two progs, Godslayer and vDSR, and running 4-6 trials a week. I healed an attempt at vHOF HM last night. I'm playing a lot more with my friends because I don't have to bow out due to pain. My friends are doing more trials, because I'm one of many in this situation, but now some of us are on our HA builds, while others are doing the zenkosh / EC Cro (I have both, and a brittleden), and we rotate.

I still have to learn the mechanics. I still need to know when to switch hardened ward for critical surge for shuffle and how to gracefully grab, drop, and steal the orbs when fighting and interrupting Turlassil and Lylanar. When to drop into the water to avoid Deluge. When to swap out Combat Prayer for Blessing of Restoration, or Turning Tide vs. Crimson Oath.

But I've had more vet dungeon and trial clears in the last few months since Oakensoul came out than in the previous 3 years, simply because with Oakensoul, I can physically do them. It's not a matter of skill for me and those like me. It's pain management. It's spoons, for those familiar with that metaphor.

How is this possibly bad for the game?

Yes, there are those who will mis-use it, like those running ahead of the tanks and pulling because they think they'll survive. But, gotta say, those people always did that. Oakensoul doesn't change that. It's just getting noticed when oakensoul users are doing it, because that's what's on people's minds right now.

Artim_X · March 2023

It's not, especially after it was nerfed from being overly good (OG Brokensoul: too much damage, too much survivability, and too much ultimate regeneration) to being fair in relation to the kiss of having always active buffs that are ideal for content and the curse of losing 5 skills and an ultimate. Also, can't back bar a set with an Oakensoul build.

A lot of people complained about the nerfs to it, but they were necessary to bring it in line with the trade-off of only being able to use one bar. Also, giving Oakensoul empower meant that players did not need to waste a set or a skill to get access to this buff in order to effectively utilize a one-bar heavy attack build.

The fact that the people are still complaining about it, when it does not affect them in any manner is quite disappointing. At the end of the day, variety is the spice of life and people should be allowed to play a video game however they want to play, especially when the game itself provides the tools to do so.

beer781993 · March 2023

It's not bad for the game. I think it's in a great spot right now. I really don't like the empower nerfs. Atm you are able to do all content with heavy attack builds/1 Bar builds. Even GS was done with it which is great and cool.

I personally only use those builds for farming dragons or for fun but I do think that it's great for the game because even handicapped players can do enough dps with it. I would rather see a small buff to Light Attacks than a nerf to heavy attack builds. Oaken soul is a great addition to the game and a step in the right direction.

Unfortunately ZoS is always nerfing fun builds.
They have no clue of balancing the game. If you look closely than you see that the combat team is randomly buffing op dks and nerfing already struggling classes.

endgamesmug · March 2023

I have nothing against heavy attack builds and oakensoul, i have good fun on it in some scenarios especially concerning barswap ping issues. Ive found it really frustrating in some situations where i really need movement speed, everyone else in the group seems like they are running swift and i have lead shoes because of the whole heavy attack animation. So im using it less and less in the end.

Yazrz · March 2023

On the contrary, it is great for the game. It comes down both to enabling a more relaxed play style, but also enabling experiencing content as a solo player or a duo, where all buffs are not accounted for.

Djennku · March 2023

There's nothing wrong with oakensoul, never has been. All the complaining is done by people who want to gatekeep and prevent others from being able to complete content due to personal insecurity and other reasons.

Oakensoul is absolutely amazing and I for one absolutely love how it gives more and more people the ability to get stuff done. I know many people who would be excluded from things or even struggled solo because they had a hard time with combat, mechanics, and managing a complex rotation. Utilizing a setup with oakensoul allowed those people to succeed and enjoy the harder stuff they thought they'd never be able to do.

Liguar · March 2023

For context: I don't do any group content aside from dungeons I can solo or duo, I'm just here for the ES universe and commenting on accessibility in a more general way.

Apart from apm, a big issue for me is that many/most classes seem to have a lot of really bright spell effects. The no pet HA oakensorc variation is just so much cleaner and easier on my eyes than anything else and allows me to spend more time in a world that I love. I've tried a bunch of classes and builds and nothing else approaches it for eye comfort.

It would be nice if there were more ways to reduce spell effects in general, and if flappy pets weren't so ubiquitous.

Zodiarkslayer · March 2023

Oakensoul enables a lot of players to complete content that was previously out of reach. It is irrelevant wether they are disabled or anything.

The players complaining about Oakensoul can be put in two categories.
One: They have been on the receiving end of braokensoul builds in PvP and developed a trauma.
Two: They have put a lot of time, effort and money into achieving what most players can now achieve easily with an Oakensoul HA build.

I do not share the opinion, but I can understand where both are coming from, to be honest.

Yazrz · March 2023

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Oakensoul enables a lot of players to complete content that was previously out of reach. It is irrelevant wether they are disabled or anything.

The players complaining about Oakensoul can be put in two categories.
One: They have been on the receiving end of braokensoul builds in PvP and developed a trauma.
Two: They have put a lot of time, effort and money into achieving what most players can now achieve easily with an Oakensoul HA build.

I do not share the opinion, but I can understand where both are coming from, to be honest.

Regarding the first point, that is an issue in the core game design, that PVE and PvP are not more separate. It is unfortunate if PVE balancing affects PvP and vice versa.

colossalvoids · March 2023

I don't think much attention should be put on people who think this mythic hurts the game in some way, because it's objectively wrong. Way more people able to enjoy harder content without it being nerfed for them can't be a bad thing for both camps.

What actually was a bad thing were numerable nerfs for perfectly tuned encounters rendering them obsolete.

I perfectly understand struggle of medium skilled players doing progressions etc. using standard builds doing less damage than an accessibility option but that's not as damaging issue as inaccessible content.

Yazrz · March 2023

colossalvoids wrote: »

I perfectly understand struggle of medium skilled players doing progressions etc. using standard builds doing less damage than an accessibility option but that's not as damaging issue as inaccessible content.

The issue there seems mainly to be that the standard builds are not appropriately tuned, not that the accessibility option is incorrectly tuned.

Yazrz · March 2023

Liguar wrote: »

For context: I don't do any group content aside from dungeons I can solo or duo, I'm just here for the ES universe and commenting on accessibility in a more general way.

Apart from apm, a big issue for me is that many/most classes seem to have a lot of really bright spell effects. The no pet HA oakensorc variation is just so much cleaner and easier on my eyes than anything else and allows me to spend more time in a world that I love. I've tried a bunch of classes and builds and nothing else approaches it for eye comfort.

It would be nice if there were more ways to reduce spell effects in general, and if flappy pets weren't so ubiquitous.

I fully agree, too much of the game is just headache-inducing bright, flashy and/or flappy. There needs to be optional reduction of these things.

With too many effects, it gets unreasonably hard to separate the buffs / aoes / heals one is interested in seeing, from the effects that are just flavor.

colossalvoids · March 2023

Yazrz wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

I perfectly understand struggle of medium skilled players doing progressions etc. using standard builds doing less damage than an accessibility option but that's not as damaging issue as inaccessible content.

The issue there seems mainly to be that the standard builds are not appropriately tuned, not that the accessibility option is incorrectly tuned.

Agree here, personally I really dislike the build direction overall with hybridisation and proc sets ability to do critical damage again, imo but those shouldn't overshadow other options by that much. Like one set require to be in a pretty dangerous sustain state managing to not oversustain through synergies for example and another one is to do any damage once every 10 sec. It's disproportional and makes no sense. And it's not proc sets that needs to be nerfed, I'd say it's going the other way around having oaken now to not fall even more behind.

There's a lot of similar examples be it set power or distribution of support ones like blades and plars lost master architect/war machine, there's a lot of stuff to tackle and sadly each update makes it all way harder to adjust in the future as it piles up, but that's justy personal issues more of.

WuffyCerulei · March 2023

Oakensoul WAS overpowered when it first came out, but it's pretty good where it is now. I'm glad heavy attack builds are back. They used to be pretty common when I really started playing. And I'm also glad that there's a competent DPS build out there for people who are disabled or can't handle an intricate rotation. PVP will have some issues, but heavy attack PVP builds can be nerfed by simply changing the target to be an NPC (I.e. Noble Duelist). The HA builds still don't make up for people's personal experience and skill in dungeons and trials as well. Yeah, they COULD pull big numbers, but if they're standing in stupid and dying every 20 seconds, they're not going to be a good member for the group. A dead DPS does no DPS. I can personally do a good rotation on sorc, but due to my wrist issues, HA sorc is much easier on me. Using said build doesn't instantly make me a god DPS. I also have personal experience and practice with mechanics and stuff in PVE.

ADarklore · March 2023

Oakensoul not only helps those with physical disabilities, but those with mental impairment as well. I know a lot of people with anxieties can be triggered by the need to constant bar-swap in combat, so Oakensoul was a definite boon to them as well.

For myself, using controller on PC, sometimes the game doesn't register that I hit the 'swap bar' button and so I can find myself casting on the wrong bar even though I 'tried' to swap. When I finally acquired the Oakensoul ring, which was months after it came out, I found a new enjoyment of the game. I ended up converting ALL my alts (except for Nightblade) over to one-bar builds because of the stress-reduction factor it offered. Nightblade I have a DPS loadout on front bar and stealth loadout on back bar- so Oakensoul wouldn't benefit me. All the other classes work great with Oakensoul in my experience.

Dr_Con · March 2023

it's only bad in the sense that it removes any sort of crossover into light-attack weaving, it locks people into a specific rotation that has a lower damage cap

This damage amount, while easier to obtain mechanically speaking, is objectively lower than 2 bar builds. So it really becomes an issue when you have DPS slots being taken up by oakensoul players who x'd up first when you have 120k dps who could have come who x'd up later.

Additionally there's some groups telling their players to get oakensoul, these players were already doing fine dps at 100k-120k, but 90k is a baseline that doesn't require a cmx parse to realistically expect. Players themselves should want to not use oakensoul, and to instead use 2 bar builds so that when they become better players they will parse higher, but many might just want to get into content with their friends faster or are just not good at dpsing.

Missing out on having skills to use dots is a huge downside to oakenbuilds (since you can get buffs like brutality and minor force from applying dots), but oaken is not without other benefits- especially when it comes to being tanky.

but at the end of the day, 90k dps is still 90k dps, no matter how you get it...

P.S. Oakensoul has nothing to do with accessibility features, and people doing trifectas in oakensoul builds would be able to do them in non-oakensoul builds. If you play DPS and have mained it but when you do /played on your main you've spent months playing the game but can't break 60k despite your best efforts, it's probably time to consider either getting oakensoul or reaching out to someone to coach you on your rotation/build

Androrix · March 2023

Interesting thread OP. I am happy Oakensoul has helped you I think it is more in line since it was downgraded a bit.

I mostly solo and have always single barred. I have two different issues though that I wish they would improve upon.

Most importantly, I think oakensoul has been implemented poorly relative to builds. By that I mean, for me, creating my best build was always fun. Oakensoul subsumes so many of the class skills for my warden it is hard to find one to slot any more. Or many skills at all to slot that add. I think that is a shame. What is the point of the bulk of those skill trees any more? Why not change those skill bonuses so they don't overlap?

Second, as a mostly solo player it has not increased accessibility. I can do the stuff I could always do quicker if I use oakensoul. That's pretty much it. Increasing accessibility for me would be removing silly two player mechanics like the pressure plates in direfrost dungeon. So, you are correct in your interpretation of what accessibility means.

I think these are things that have not been considered yet in the oakensoul debate. I am genuinely happy for you that you can do more content now though. That's a good thing.

TaSheen · March 2023

There's actually a third accessibility issue that oakensoul alleviates at least to some degree: high ping. Which is one of my problems; the other is inability to "master" twitchy combat due to aging reflexes.

I love oakensoul; I'd also love to get the last one I need, but the damn crab boss is being crabby!

Yazrz · March 2023

Androrix wrote: »

Most importantly, I think oakensoul has been implemented poorly relative to builds. By that I mean, for me, creating my best build was always fun. Oakensoul subsumes so many of the class skills for my warden it is hard to find one to slot any more. Or many skills at all to slot that add. I think that is a shame. What is the point of the bulk of those skill trees any more? Why not change those skill bonuses so they don't overlap?

That is true, but it maybe also highlights an issue with the current skills. If the skills are chosen for specific permanent buffs, the skills are not that interesting to begin with. In my opinion it would be more interesting if there were more synergies between specific skills, e.g. skill A giving a buff to skill B for a limited duration of time, to enable varying rotations.

Freelancer_ESO · March 2023

beer781993 wrote: »

It's not bad for the game. I think it's in a great spot right now. I really don't like the empower nerfs. Atm you are able to do all content with heavy attack builds/1 Bar builds. Even GS was done with it which is great and cool.

I personally only use those builds for farming dragons or for fun but I do think that it's great for the game because even handicapped players can do enough dps with it. I would rather see a small buff to Light Attacks than a nerf to heavy attack builds. Oaken soul is a great addition to the game and a step in the right direction.

Unfortunately ZoS is always nerfing fun builds.
They have no clue of balancing the game. If you look closely than you see that the combat team is randomly buffing op dks and nerfing already struggling classes.

Has ZOS officially put out something about nerfing Empower?

Last I knew, the an image was going around with Empower getting nerfed was a fake.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7822106

haelgaan · March 2023

I don't know why some folks think using HA builds lock folks into one playstyle, and they'll never go into LA builds. That is a specious argument. Players using a HA build to good effect will understand the idea of weaving skills between attacks. The switch to a LA build is effectively the same thing, but a faster rotation. When a player needs the higher DPS of a LA build, they can use a LA build. If the HA build is sufficient for the purpose and is the preference for the player, go for it.

Nestor · March 2023

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who is benefiting greatly from 1-bar HA builds.

How is this possibly bad for the game?

Its not. Some people just like to complain about something. Oakensoul will not get you to the top of the DPS curve, just comfortably along it.

Nestor · March 2023

TaSheen wrote: »

There's actually a third accessibility issue that oakensoul alleviates at least to some degree: high ping. Which is one of my problems; the other is inability to "master" twitchy combat due to aging reflexes.

I love oakensoul; I'd also love to get the last one I need, but the damn crab boss is being crabby!

You can Recreate them using 25 Transmute Stones. Assuming you got it once already.

TaSheen · March 2023

Nestor wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

There's actually a third accessibility issue that oakensoul alleviates at least to some degree: high ping. Which is one of my problems; the other is inability to "master" twitchy combat due to aging reflexes.

I love oakensoul; I'd also love to get the last one I need, but the damn crab boss is being crabby!

You can Recreate them using 25 Transmute Stones. Assuming you got it once already.

I have 3 accounts, and run characters on both PC NA and PC EU. You can't recreate mythics to give to another account.

Billium813 · March 2023

1 bar HA builds are too simple and too prolific.

They use only 10% of their resources and go from 0-80k with literally no effort (hold RMB and press 1 skill every 2 seconds; yes, I'v played it). They are completely swamping the mid-level builds with their combo of accessibility + excessive damage. Unfortunately there is now 0 diversity in non-Trial content. There is only one build now for non-Trial content: Oakensoul, Sergeants Mail, Storm Master. If there is ANY player out that doing less than 80k DPS, they are literally playing the game wrong at this point, and that argument is now literally being thrown out in game.

And this truth will unfortunately be shouted down by the hordes of players that want their "I win button" cause they can't handle doing 40k DPS on non-Trial content and can't put in the work to get a good rotation for Trial content. You need to fix this ZOS or the game will be 90% Lighting Staves and the 10% left will only be 120k score pushers.

ForzaRammer · March 2023

Oakensoul is great, it raised the median considerably, now tank and healer can and should expect more from que pugs. Kicking folks with low AF dps is slightly easier.

Caribou77 · March 2023

Agree with those who say it doesnt harm the game.

Artim_X · March 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

1 bar HA builds are too simple and too prolific.

They use only 10% of their resources and go from 0-80k with literally no effort (hold RMB and press 1 skill every 2 seconds; yes, I'v played it). They are completely swamping the mid-level builds with their combo of accessibility + excessive damage. Unfortunately there is now 0 diversity in non-Trial content. There is only one build now for non-Trial content: Oakensoul, Sergeants Mail, Storm Master. If there is ANY player out that doing less than 80k DPS, they are literally playing the game wrong at this point, and that argument is now literally being thrown out in game.

And this truth will unfortunately be shouted down by the hordes of players that want their "I win button" cause they can't handle doing 40k DPS on non-Trial content and can't put in the work to get a good rotation for Trial content. You need to fix this ZOS or the game will be 90% Lighting Staves and the 10% left will only be 120k score pushers.

For the sake of serious discussion. The point of mythics is to change how one plays the game at a cost (ex: mythic that heals you based on damage done at the cost of not being healed by others and a mythic that makes you immune to snares/roots at the cost of not being able to sprint).

People have been playing one-bar builds since beta despite it literally handicapping one's full potential. Now ZOS has access to stats and data that we'll never see, but it is clear that they saw the potential to create a mythic that specifically enables a one-bar playstyle to not only be functional, but a genuinely new way to play the game without being at a clear disadvantage.

Variety is key for a game focused on horizontal progression. If every build played exactly the same, the game would be dead in the water. People still play two-bar builds. I for one miss being able to play a 3-bar sorc (RIP overload utility bar), but that is never going to happen again and I have come to accept that as reality.

You claim there is only one build out there now in relation to mid-tier builds, but that is based on your very subjective experience. There are still many ways to play the game at all levels of content.

mattaeus01b16_ESO · March 2023

Glad OP is enjoying the game! I know dozens of people that are benefitting from Oakensoul. And I am personally happy that I am able to take friends threw content that they previously went able to achieve.
To that end, why are people so up in arms about others playing the game the way they want, when it has no effect on them as a person? Stop GATEKEEPING and play the game.

Rageypoo · March 2023

I'm very happy with the direction Z0S took with 1 bar HA builds, I'd like to see more of them and I hope the variations that come out going forward give us more variety and fun.

I think they did a good job balancing the damage of 1 bar vs 2 bar builds, while they will never be as strong, being able to keep up without exhausting yourself helps a lot of players fit in. Hard-core meta 2 bar weavers get to stay at the top of the food chain and everyone wins.

Billium813 · March 2023

Oakensoul is only part of the issue. These are three combat caps from a 1 bar Necro HA build. One with Oakensoul and the other just swapping Oakensoul for a mid-tier Mythic like Death Dealer's Fete, then the third dropping all CP passives and slottables (Wrathful Strikes, Deadly Aim, Backstabber, Weapons Expert). For all three caps, I held down RMB the entire time and pressed a skill every 2 seconds (I counted). I had absolutely no idea what I was doing, so I'm sure I had a sloppy rotation and wasn't properly weaving HAs

1bar HA + Oakensoul

1bar HA + Death Dealer's Fete

1bar HA + Death Dealer's Fete + No CP

look at those Resource drains. ~250 Magicka drain per second... with 85k DPS... That demonstrates just how little the build is doing in actions and yet can still reach 85K DPS.
Oakensoul literally doubles the damage your HA does. From 15k DPS -> 30k DPS
even without Oakensoul, a 1 bar HA build that drains ~240 Magicka per second, activates 1 skill every 2 seconds, and deals 100% damage in AOE, from range, gets to 54k DPS
No CP, no Empower (the HA specific buff) and we are still at 45k DPS
Skills don't cancel the HA channel; instead queuing the skill. This is subtle, but is highly accessible. Not necessarily an issue, but comparing that to LA weaving, you can really see the appeal.

It's no wonder players love this build. Imaging you're 200CP player, with a 10-20k DPS build that spams 7-8 skills, drains > 1.5k resources per second, and requires a complex rotation/weaving/positioning. Now, you can put on Base Game Dungeon gear and hold RMB to jump all the way up to > 60k DPS.