Target Markers on Enemy Players is ZOS sanctioned griefing

Flangdoodle · February 2023

So let me get this straight:

It's completely OK and not at all against TOS for groups of 12 to repeatedly target single players and follow them around the map focusing just them? Thats what they're starting here, according to the latest PTS patch notes (8.3.1). How else would this be used?

So now anyone and everyone in my group can locate any targeted single player anywhere they are on the map until we kill them - and then we just need to re-target them.

That's totally fine, according to ZOS.

That's how they want groups to be playing this game. 12 v 1 is now the company preferred method of gameplay in Cyrodiil.

Tell me how this isn't the case? Seriously, how is there any way that this won't happen if they bring it to live?

acastanza_ESO · February 2023

You can also now easily stealth to remove the markers.
The markers also have a limited range in which they appear on your compass/in the world.
Groups already targeted specific players for ultidumps/ganking this doesn't really change much.
The old version that persisted through death and could basically not be removed at all was way too strong and abusable.
I think in the current proposed state they will be fine.

Araneae6537 · February 2023

Can’t you remove targets placed on you?

acastanza_ESO · February 2023

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Can’t you remove targets placed on you?

If an enemy places at target marker on you no, you could not before. You can't even see it.
Now however, you can stealth to remove any markers placed on you by enemies (even though you still can't see them, you'll just have to make sure to periodically stealth as a part of strategic gameplay).

You can see, and remove, target markers placed on you by group members though.

Billium813 · February 2023

Was there a time when the target marker system was like this in PvP? They "temporarily disabled" it in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7764927/#Comment_7764927, but they didn't explain why. There must have been some negative feedback on this, right? Why did they re-enable it now?

propertyOfUndefined · February 2023

I've personally been looking for a feature like this for a while. Coming from other MMOs, it was SOP to mark the healer as early as possible. In some cases, marking would happen before a match even started. Players were trained to separate tanks from the healer, burst the healer down, focus on DDs, then save the tank for last. It was never griefing. It was just doing what it took to win.

robpr · February 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

Was there a time when the target marker system was like this in PvP? They "temporarily disabled" it in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7764927/#Comment_7764927, but they didn't explain why. There must have been some negative feedback on this, right? Why did they re-enable it now?

Most likely because persisted through death and stealth and couldn't fix on time.

nuttytom · February 2023

this is such a bad take, you can chase players around easily with markers or not lmao. and the marker is removed when the target dies so how exactly is using the system going to mean players are going to get chased around endlessly? the target system is great because it allows you to focus down the healers in a zerg for example.
you are basically saying that pvping is griefing lol.

TechMaybeHic · February 2023

Im not a fan of it from a friendly side either. What good is having groups limited to 12 or sets like Rallying Cry when you can just ungroup, or run sets of 2 and get most the benefits by staying just relatively close to follow the marker?

Billium813 · February 2023

At first glance, I think this is a bad idea

Then again, I'm kinda ok with my opponent wasting a bunch of time trying to mark me in the fast paced content of PvP. It's not the easiest thing use mid-fight anyway and as long as it clears on death, I don't really see the issue.

Amottica · February 2023

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

You can also now easily stealth to remove the markers.
The markers also have a limited range in which they appear on your compass/in the world.
Groups already targeted specific players for ultidumps/ganking this doesn't really change much.
The old version that persisted through death and could basically not be removed at all was way too strong and abusable.
I think in the current proposed state they will be fine.

and as you note, you cannot see them placed on you so I wonder how OP would know the markers are being used in this manner.

It is also legitimate. I have been in other PvP where healers or players targeting healers are marked, so players focus them for obvious reasons. In those cases the player does not know they have a marker placed by an enemy, they cannot remove them, and they persisted through death.

I expect most groups use the markers for tactical purposes and are not going to spend their days griefing a single player.

tomofhyrule · February 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

Was there a time when the target marker system was like this in PvP? They "temporarily disabled" it in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7764927/#Comment_7764927, but they didn't explain why. There must have been some negative feedback on this, right? Why did they re-enable it now?

It was because the original one didn't clear when the character died or stealthed and had a long range, so essentially it could be used exactly as OP is describing as 'griefing.' You could mark one player, target them over and over, and even if they stealthed you could see precisely where they were. I remember people saying that similar issues also came up when they introduced tab targeting.

The new version works just like the tab targeting does now. You have to be close enough to see them to mark someone, then if they stealth or get too far away or die, the marker goes away and needs to be reapplied by getting back in range of them. It now works the way that should be expected for a tactical tool.

Billium813 · February 2023

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You have to be close enough to see them to mark someone, then if they stealth or get too far away or die, the marker goes away and needs to be reapplied by getting back in range of them. It now works the way that should be expected for a tactical tool.

Oh, does the marker get removed if the target simply goes outside the range?

It might be decent if used FROM stealth by group scouts, which is where I suspect this will be used mostly. But anyone else trying to use it is only gonna be frustrated while trying to target 1 specific person, during combat, in PvP. You're likely to target the wrong person. I'd personally like to see it remain on stealth'd targets; going invisible while they are, but becoming visible once more when they are.

I think ground targeting markers would be more impactful then this feature. This seems rather niche with all the limitations.

Amottica · February 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You have to be close enough to see them to mark someone, then if they stealth or get too far away or die, the marker goes away and needs to be reapplied by getting back in range of them. It now works the way that should be expected for a tactical tool.

Oh, does the marker get removed if the target simply goes outside the range?

It might be decent if used FROM stealth by group scouts, which is where I suspect this will be used mostly. But anyone else trying to use it is only gonna be frustrated while trying to target 1 specific person, during combat, in PvP. You're likely to target the wrong person. I'd personally like to see it remain on stealth'd targets; going invisible while they are, but becoming visible once more when they are.

I think ground targeting markers would be more impactful then this feature. This seems rather niche with all the limitations.

Ground targeting markers are for a very different purpose.

Adamus · February 2023

Add-ons exist and auto targeting will be a thing. Not everyone has stealth. Pointing out how it can be used in a positive way doesn’t prevent the negative. Groups will abuse this and claim, “if they didn’t want us to do it, why’d they put it in the game.” Either way, lite griefing is still griefing.

Group targets is a great idea for PvE and a horrible one for PvP. It’s not about how it can be used, it’s about how it will be abused. Bringing this into PvP says, “griefing is part of the game now” and the rules apply to us all. So every non-nb solo streamer better find themselves 11 pocket healers and group up.

I’m curious who’s advocating for this to be in PvP? Do they even PvP in this game, if they do, how many play styles? Or is their group already engaged in 12v1 tactics and they want to make it easier for themselves?

I personally think 12v1 tactics is cheap game play, unless it’s a player asking to be stacked on like a perma block tank, or a ‘never going to catch me!’ player LoSing around a captured keep but if it’s how they want us to play, we’ll adjust.

Adamus · February 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

I think ground targeting markers would be more impactful then this feature. This seems rather niche with all the limitations.

Agreed, ground targeting would be more useful in PvP.

Flangdoodle · February 2023

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I remember people saying that similar issues also came up when they introduced tab targeting.

The new version works just like the tab targeting does now. You have to be close enough to see them to mark someone, then if they stealth or get too far away or die, the marker goes away and needs to be reapplied by getting back in range of them. It now works the way that should be expected for a tactical tool.

Yeah well I'll believe that when I see it. The difference is that nobody else can see my tab target, only me. Allowing entire groups to have a target on one enemy player that the whole group can see (w/r its a healer or tank or group leader or whatever) is [snip]. It might be fair if the person had some notice that they were targeted - like the "eye" that lets you know w/r youre stealthed or not, but otherwise it's useless for anything but 12-v-1-ing.

And seriously - how many signs are they going to flash that they have decided that ball-grouping is The Way to pvp in AVA? New sets, new classes, now UI tools? Geeze why not just change the name of the zone to "Ball-o-diil"?

[edited for profanity bypass]

acastanza_ESO · February 2023

@Adamus everyone does, in fact, have access to stealth. Crouching enables stealth. Also, stealth potions are a thing. Both of these should remove target markers, although it remains to be seen how effective these mitigations are in combat.

@Flangdoodle, I agree that there should be some UI indication if you have a target marker active on you applied by an enemy player. That would be a good addition. Yes, the ability to clear the markers enables counterplay, but this would be an actual indication that counterplay is needed - and I think would resolve a lot of people's lingering concerns about the system.

Finedaible · February 2023

Yeah, I have to agree with this one. PvP has never needed a target marker system such as this to be successful, and placing it in PvP only strengthens abuse by ball groups. Not every class and spec can easily "stealth" to remove a marker and I firmly believe in fair counterplay via base game tools, which is also why I believe Mara's Balm and other sets introduced to counter it should have never been a thing but that's a whole other topic of its own.

VaranisArano · February 2023

I was a healer in a ball group, so I'll point out that back when I played with my guild regularly, it was more like "See that healer in a white dress? Target her."

Or "There's RandomPlayerName, target him." because we all played with nametags on.

"I saw So-and-So, watch for their bomb" in the case of a known bomber.

We'd do things like all of us dress in guild colors to make it harder for others to pick us out of the group, though I'm sure my Worm Cult blue balls helped in that regard.

Point is, we did target individual players in the midst of a larger group, but it was using their visual clues like costumes or names to communicate the target. Even when Crown called them out, I still had to look for them and aim my damage on target.

So it was always possible to target players, but we had to work at it.

Side note: we also had a couple incidents where players from our own alliance followed us around and then, mysteriously, everywhere we went, the same enemy guild would be waiting for us in ambush. Once we slipped away from our shadows, the enemy guild didn't follow. So it was always possible to follow enemy groups, but at least we had to work at it.

Second side note: As a healer to other healers, don't wear a white dress.

Adamus · February 2023

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

@Adamus everyone does, in fact, have access to stealth. Crouching enables stealth. Also, stealth potions are a thing. Both of these should remove target markers, although it remains to be seen how effective these mitigations are in combat.

If you’re in a combat situation where a 12 player group is targeting you, you’re not going to be able to crouch into stealth. And pots have a 45s timer and you can be pulled out of stealth with skills and other pots. NB stealth is the only stealth skill that you can spam and evade that situation. Sure, the mark might be temporarily removed but a it can as easily be reapplied. These ‘what about’s’ only really speak for a few play styles, few of which would be involved in the group play styles where this would be used. Not to mention you don’t know when you’re marked, you know when you’re debuffed but have no clue other than 12 players barreling down on you if you’re marked.

Flangdoodle · February 2023

VaranisArano wrote: »

So it was always possible to target players, but we had to work at it.

Exactly. Absolutely no one was asking for the ability for groups to be able to target single enemy players in AVA zones using the game UI. No one. Sure, it happens - but there's no need to encourage it. It's actually a great system for friendlies: My group often runs more than one 12-person group in Cyrodiil, and it's a great help for the players in the second group to be able to see the crown of the first group and vice versa. I just think that giving that ability to enemy players is going to lead to nothing but [snip], and it's a mystery why they suddenly decided to change it back.

[edited for profanity bypass]