Hard disagree.

#1: Balance is not measured in a single skill. The best for every patch likely is the top players performing with those classes in specific content. Thus, "tier lists" for solo, raiding, pvp and so on are a good indicator on overall performance. Not perfect, but generally much more accepted and way more detailed in explanation then a selection of screenshots and a obviously biased explanation with a biased title.

#2: Sorc needn't get more "powerful". Sorc needs more viable playstyles. Everyone got nerfed, that is right. But I deem sorc "relatively" well off in terms of maximum possible performance. I deem Sorc bad in regards to choice.

#3: Try to give some comprehensive information on how you would change what and in which way this would change the class and its overall performance. That is useful. That mind find many players agreeing with you.

Unpopular opinion, get rid of executes 🙂

SCP343 wrote: »

Sorcerer exists in broken dmg proc sets and they always make some broken set. IE: Azureblight, Unleashed, Plaguebreak, Savage werewolf, Draugrkin one of those sets. Ofc magsorc is bad but i dont think stamsorc is bad esp they had the best dmg (sometimes even more than total dmg of 3 people in his group)

mb, speaking for bgs

Would like to see sorc pets treated like Warlock and Hunter pets in WoW - a separate "pet bar" for pet skills, abilities, etc. that does not take up space on the main action bars.

Biggest issue I have as a magsorc in trials (vs stamblade etc) is lack of cleave and lack of a gap closer unless I am running 2h backbar for stampede and carve. I may be "used to" two daggers and a 2h backbar by now, but for a class that is supposed to be a ranged damage dealer, it just "feels" wrong. Not that frag spam feels any better -- it's clunky and makes weaving feel clunky as well. We also suffer from extremely underwhelming AoE options, and the ones we do have mostly come from Destruction staves. Our "execute" (wrath) is so underpowered that it's almost never slotted anymore since u35. Worse, we're now forced to wear medium armor, and regain the lost pen and sustain from CP. We also bring little class utility in the form of useful buffs or debuffs, and the ones we do have are often done better by other classes, making them redundant (e.g. ele drain)

Some of this was OK with how a DPS Sorc was originally designed -- a light armor and staff-based class that stays at range, nuking targets from afar, and uses pets to harass enemies up close, relying on snares and stuns (runes, mine, traps) to defend against melee attackers -- but those days are so long gone that they are barely a distant memory for even some of the oldest Sorc players such as myself. The current medium-armor, dual wield/2 hander sorc meta is a hot mess that has destroyed class identity.

I will say that Critical Surge is a fairly reliable passive self heal which also has the benefit of letting you run tristat pots instead of spellpower pots. Yes, you lose some DPS, but it lets you handle a lot of mechanics (portals in CR and SS, upstairs in vHOF, toilet and bridge in vDSR)

too long, didn't read

skimmed the first few lines and all i heard was sorc mains crying that their class doesn't have the best survivability, mobility, and damage combo's in the game anymore like they had for a few years of being at the absolute top of the PvP tier list with nothing else coming close

still one of the best classes for endgame pve content too lol

Marto wrote: »

Dragonknights don't deal 10% more damage to enemies at full health. Templars don't have access to any sort of mobility or escape skills like streak. Many Nightblade builds lack self healing. Necromancers don't have damage shields. The Templar execute doesn't stick to targets. Etc, etc, etc.

Classes are a complete package, and should be judged as such.

It's fine to offer criticism or feedback like "I think Sorcs should have a more damaging execute." or "The proc chance of crystal frags feels too small" But you have to take in consideration all aspects of the skill and class. Range, target count, cost, conditions, damage type, passives that affect it, etc.

You're cherry picking examples without presenting an appropriate context.

Is it cherry pickiing to look at the complete set of abilities and coming to the conclusion that sorcs have no real advantage over all other classes - not in one single category of abilities? And don't answer with "the sum is greater than then parts". Hard to argue that, if all parts of other classes are better.

Klingenlied wrote: »

Hard disagree.

#1: Balance is not measured in a single skill. The best for every patch likely is the top players performing with those classes in specific content. Thus, "tier lists" for solo, raiding, pvp and so on are a good indicator on overall performance. Not perfect, but generally much more accepted and way more detailed in explanation then a selection of screenshots and a obviously biased explanation with a biased title.

#2: Sorc needn't get more "powerful". Sorc needs more viable playstyles. Everyone got nerfed, that is right. But I deem sorc "relatively" well off in terms of maximum possible performance. I deem Sorc bad in regards to choice.

#3: Try to give some comprehensive information on how you would change what and in which way this would change the class and its overall performance. That is useful. That mind find many players agreeing with you.

I did state in my OP that the numbers are actually close on sorc and that it is the feel of the class that needs improving and that is why it is so hard to fix the class.

I have also answered number 3 in great detail, in the post linked below, including potential balances for the improvements given to the class via the updated skills. There have also been many posts and videos made on this issue as well that have included suggestions for how to fix the class.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/614632/some-ideas-for-a-future-patch-for-the-necessary-modernizing-of-sorcerers#latest

The short of it is:
-make shields scale off damage instead of max stats, as this allows the class to wear a greater variety of sets and still perform both offensively and defensively, just like other classes can
-give the class a good HoT ability that provides passive healing instead of requiring critical damage or specific abilities to land to get a "HoT"
-improve pets so that they no longer need 2 bar slots
-improve dark deal/dark conversion to not be so punishing (i.e. remove the ability to be interrupted which locks the skill for up to 3 seconds)
-improve the burst combo via faster travel times, and/or less obvious telegraphing of the abilities which makes the combo super easy to avoid with a single dodge roll.

Marto wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

Is it cherry pickiing to look at the complete set of abilities and coming to the conclusion that sorcs have no real advantage over all other classes - not in one single category of abilities? And don't answer with "the sum is greater than then parts". Hard to argue that, if all parts of other classes are better.

There are advantages. Plenty of them.

Mages Wrath:
+ Is ranged.
+ Deals AoE damage.
+ Sticks to targets, no need to maintain line of sight.
+ Automatically applies damage to target when they reach the threshold, without requiring additional input.
- Only works on 20% or lower
- Doesn't scale

Crystal frags:
+ Is ranged
+ Deals very high damage for a ranged skill
+ Has a comparatively low cost, allowing the user to equip more damage/crit/survivability sets, enchants, and buffs, instead of recovery ones.
+ Heals you on hit (Blood Magic passive)
+ Grants Minor Prophecy
- Has a cast time when it doesn't proc
- Average to low performance when not using the proc

And you could write things like this for most other skills presented on the thread. Radiant oppression slows you down while playing an already slow as molasses class. Concealed weapon is melee range. Molten whip deals fire damage, which is the most common damage vulnerability in the game. Biting jabs is AoE.

All of these skills have pros and cons. And you have to look at both to really know if a skill is overpowered or underpowered. Just because they have clear negatives that are worse than other skills doesn't mean they're necessarily "weaker".

And you have to look at the rest of the kit. One element might be designed to be weaker because other elements are stronger.

Let me correct you here.

Mages wrath:
+ is ranged
+ deals tiny AoE damage
+ sticks to targets
- requires damage to be dealt while below 20% HP to proc its "execute" bonus damage
- only works at 20% or lower
- doesn't scale
- can be purged, blocked and roll dodged to mitigate it completely
- deals half the base damage every other execute ability deals while above the threshold while also having the lowest threshold for its bonus damage in the entire game.
- often doesn't cast in lag while still draining resources and playing the animation

Crystal frags:
+ is ranged
+ proc deals nice damage considering it is ranged
+ proc has low cost compared to other abilities
+ heals on hit (blood magic passive)
+ grants minor prophecy
- has a cast time that makes it very clunky to use properly
- low damage output when not proc'd
- requires RNG to actually deal good damage, which makes lining up a proper burst that will deal damage, very unreliable.
- requires the skill to actually connect to get the small heal
- often doesn't fire in lag
- locks the skill for 3 seconds and stuns you if it's interrupted while casting
- has slow travel time allowing for very easy avoidance via the essentially free roll dodge mechanic
- cast time prevents bar swapping which causes rotations to be much more punishing to players who aren't used to it
- cannot be block cast like most other spammables in the game
- provides minimal other buffs (slightly cheaper casting on a class that already has plenty of sustain options and requires a separate passive to also give a very small heal) on use that all other spammables do (concealed +10% damage to everything + off balance (another +10% from cp) + minor expedition for being slotted, whip +300 damage and +60% increased damage, jabs is aoe and heals/grants major sorc/brut, dive grants off balance is ranged and grants up to +400 damage, scythe grants off balance, hemorrhage, is aoe and heals, art burst grants increased damage when your health is low and guaranteed crit when you are below 50% health, dizzy grants off balance, stun, snare and other morph empower, flurry ramps its damage or heals, snipe has longer range and minor breach or defile, force pulse is aoe and has a chance to apply 3 status effects, power slam gets cheaper as you block and other morph stuns). All of these other spammables provide all these additional effects on the skill alone, not counting the bonuses that the passives also grant.

I went over what those other abilities provided in the sentences on each picture/the paragraphs explaining the groups of pictures. All the other classes have significant and multiple pros to counter the small cons those skills have while sorc abilities have very little pros with very harsh cons on many of the abilities.

I have done other posts that look at the entire kit, as have multiple other people. The class kit itself is outdated and pigeon holed into 1 build for pve and completely unplayable in pvp against anyone who is remotely competent at playing the game. There's a reason the class is called "the potato stomper".

Something to note as well, because of sorcs lack of inherent mitigation in the class kit, the class is disproportionately punished by lag/performance issues compared to other classes that are much more forgiving (including NBs) when the game gets laggy/experiences performance issues.

Don't believe me? go try playing a sorc on PC EU or any of the console servers on grayhost during prime time lag and see just how "top tier" or "survivable" the class is then.
At least with dk/plar/cro/nb/warden you have reliable instant cast burst heals that can be block/roll cast, as well as access to HoT's that passively heal you without requiring a condition be met (e.g. dealing critical damage), as well as passively having mutliple mitigation buffs from abilities and passives, buffs such as evasion, protection, bonus resistances, etc on abilities that are worth running and don't take up multiple bar slots, as well as stuns that are not reliant on the gap closer mechanic that is notoriously unreliable in lag.

Mages is wrath is so bad. That's why every sorc uses it even when they are dual wielding or 2-handing. Seriously who comes up with this stuff? Sorc are absolutely blowing people up out there right now. They are right under Nightblade for damage and can just as easily engage or disengage from fights.

Templars are up there for damage too but that seems to be mostly due to a glitch right now. The other three classes? Might as well make em into a tank or healer as this point.

Janni wrote: »

Mages is wrath is so bad. That's why every sorc uses it even when they are dual wielding or 2-handing. Seriously who comes up with this stuff? Sorc are absolutely blowing people up out there right now. They are right under Nightblade for damage and can just as easily engage or disengage from fights.

Templars are up there for damage too but that seems to be mostly due to a glitch right now. The other three classes? Might as well make em into a tank or healer as this point.

try leaving BGs for pvp and see just how sorcs do outside of that niche scenario. In cyrodiil sorcs basically no longer exist outside of no proc/no cp campaign where max stats can sort of compete with raw damage sets, in pve, it's run a pet build or go another class and even in bg's (their best mode and the main mode that wrath is good in and only then to steal kills) they are still less common and performing behind wardens, nbs and dks and now plars with their bug, especially on servers that aren't PC NA with their upgraded servers that made performance playable and far less punishing to the class.

Warden struggles in pve for damage, but that is already announced for a fix being worked on for U36. for pvp though, warden are right at the top with nbs for best class (especially stamden who has arguably better burst than even nb).

The only people that sorcs are "blowing up" are the new/bad players that never block, roll dodge or heal. If people are really that concerned about sorc being op, bind roll dodge to a button and press it if you see execute or curse. That one (or maybe a second in high lag) roll dodge and the classes entire burst combo is negated and any damage that lands is easily out healed by a single vigor.

Pelanora wrote: »

I liked your work turtle bot. 👍 comparing the abilities of sorcerer to those available outside of sorcerer to show side by side the consistent pattern of underwhelming, seemed pretty sensible to me.

Wouldn't expect better, just as good as.

ty, and yeah, I don't want sorcerer to be tiers above every other class either, just bring the non-pet builds (which is what the majority seem to enjoy on the class) up to par with every other class so that sorcerer has some options outside of being a zookeeper for pve and be usable in pvp even against decent players.

Pet build. Don't post pet builds into a thread about not wanting to sorc to rely on pets.