Some evidence-based data on how bad sorc is compared to other classes.

Turtle_Bot

Kory wrote: »

Lost Depths update Sorcerer guide.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7Cx1072d_U&t

This is a pet build, the ONLY build of sorc that is viable for pve in the current patch. It is also a horrible build for pvp as the pets die far too easily, which leaves sorcs without reliable healing and also often proccing bomb specs such as plaguebreak and occult overload due to their outdated max health and lack of mitigation.

This thread is about buffing other options for sorc so that sorc players aren't forced to run pets if they don't want to for pve and can actually play the class how they want instead of being forced into being a zookeeper and also make the class equal to other classes for pvp.

Kory

Pelanora wrote: »

Pet build. Don't post pet builds into a thread about not wanting to sorc to rely on pets.

Non-pet Lost Depths Update Easy peezy Sorcerer guide
Boring to play for me personally, but I'm showing there are options.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jPk6VTQNzU

Turtle_Bot

Kory wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Pet build. Don't post pet builds into a thread about not wanting to sorc to rely on pets.

Non-pet Lost Depths Update Easy peezy Sorcerer guide
Boring to play for me personally, but I'm showing there are options.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jPk6VTQNzU

Please don't share xynode builds as "viable options". At best, they are horrible and downright laughable at how bad they perform in actual combat, especially his pvp builds of which he has absolutely no clue how to build for the mode let alone play it.

Also, this build barely uses the class kit at all. the main dps comes from heavy attacks and elemental wall (not even liquid lightning which gives synergies to group members that would increase damage by a lot. So no, it's not a sorcerer build, it's a heavy attack build that is being ran on the sorcerer class. You can run the same set up on any class and it will perform just as good if not better. It is also a pve build and not for pvp.

me_ming

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Defensively, shields are trash. They were borderline OP like 6 years ago, but currently they are terrible. The best mag sorcs arent even using them anymore.

This is a bit surreal to be reading in 2022.

Hahaha. I know right. I used to remember sorcs having like 16k to 18k health (both in PvP and PvE) that are literally unkillable with their shields up. Not saying that it's a bad thing they nerfed shields in general, but that sorc shield was definitely one of the identifying skills of a sorc.

wazzz56

let's revert to 20 second shields, perma streak and the passive execute stacking on mages wrath era......or just make everyone happy and let's all go back to the 1.6 era lol........jk jk on a serious note, buff spectral bow....

Troodon80

What I don't understand about the topic is that the original post starts off by pointing out the raw number differences side by side (something you can't really do, because we all should be aware that toolltips don't tell the full story). Then, the point moves away from numbers (relevance still debatable) and more toward "I want viable options for non-pet sorcerers" and "I don't like crystal frag spam."

Question. Try playing Necromancer without Blastbones? Or DK without Standard/Whip, etc. You no longer care about the raw numbers you posted... Instead, you want an option to play a non-pet build? Someone else doesn't want to play with Frag spam? If we are going to compare based on what we prefer rather than the numbers... then we need to make this comparison across the board... which means none of the tooltips you posted have any relevance. You might not like sorc pets and someone else might not like Blastbones. Someone else might not like being melee to use Whirling Blades. Someone else might not like being forced in a channel for Sweeps/Jabs/Beam. Etc. You went from numbers (which don't tell the whole story anyway) to purely anecdotal, you've completely thrown away whatever point you were trying to make.

Katlefiya

Troodon80 wrote: »

You went from numbers (which don't tell the whole story anyway) to purely anecdotal, you've completely thrown away whatever point you were trying to make.

They didn't. They answered to follow-ups that were made stating that sorcs were dominating BGs and PvE parses showing high dps numbers even after U35. The argument was made that yes, sorcs can still be build to somewhat function well in small-scale PvP (at lower ranks at least) and in PvE (only as a zookeeper), but that the class as a whole is at a considerable disadvantage if we are comparing the available tool sets. The OP showed hard numbers. You may want to debate the relevance, but you didn't really.

Turtle_Bot

Troodon80 wrote: »

What I don't understand about the topic is that the original post starts off by pointing out the raw number differences side by side (something you can't really do, because we all should be aware that toolltips don't tell the full story). Then, the point moves away from numbers (relevance still debatable) and more toward "I want viable options for non-pet sorcerers" and "I don't like crystal frag spam."

Question. Try playing Necromancer without Blastbones? Or DK without Standard/Whip, etc. You no longer care about the raw numbers you posted... Instead, you want an option to play a non-pet build? Someone else doesn't want to play with Frag spam? If we are going to compare based on what we prefer rather than the numbers... then we need to make this comparison across the board... which means none of the tooltips you posted have any relevance. You might not like sorc pets and someone else might not like Blastbones. Someone else might not like being melee to use Whirling Blades. Someone else might not like being forced in a channel for Sweeps/Jabs/Beam. Etc. You went from numbers (which don't tell the whole story anyway) to purely anecdotal, you've completely thrown away whatever point you were trying to make.

I'll admit, the topic was getting derailed by many of the neigh sayers dragging the conversation in that direction and away from the original post and me responding to their misdirection of the conversation.

However, the original post is still relevant, it shows the tool tips and abilities side by side, comparing the numbers on the skills as well as showing the additional effects, buffs, debuffs etc that the skills each come with without influence from passives or CPs.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to get the real issues with sorc as a whole across to the devs any other way, especially since they removed the class rep program that was supposed to give them the necessary feedback that they could use from good players as to how classes were performing and how they felt to play. The class is suffering from issues that cannot be placed into a spreadsheet to fix, issues including being pigeonholed into 1 build only for pve that does not work at all in pvp, also being outdated and clunky/punishing to play when compared to other classes as a couple of examples of issues with the class.
The devs seem to prefer and focus their efforts entirely on spreadsheet values and parse dummy results when they make changes to abilities. This super niche and narrow focus being used to determine how to balance classes and abilities results in the wild and often incorrect "balancing" that we have seen lately whereby the class got multiple abilities (including abilities that were completely fine before certain sets were released) got completely gutted as well as those sets being fixed/nerfed as well creating a double nerf of abilities because they overperformed when used in tandem with specific niche sets that were either deliberately overpowered (oakensoul) or not working as intended (savage werewolf). Despite the fact that other classes (DK) got to keep abilities (corrosive) untouched even though they abused the original oakensoul major heroism with corrosive much more than sorcs ever did with atro.
By showing the tooltips side by side it shows that while the numerical values of most of sorcs abilities are somewhat similar to their equivalent counterparts in other classes, it shows in no uncertain terms how lacking the class is in bonus effects, buffs, debuffs and the numerous downsides of the sorcs class skills such as channel times on the main spammable and also key defensive abilities such as class heals as well as a lack of heal over time abilities within the class kit that forces the class into using specific weapons/builds (which leaves the class much more vulnerable to a nerf of a specific weapon type, compared to equivalent skills of other classes and even in weapon lines that fit in with multiple builds and allow for so much more freedom when building those other classes, especially when zos seems to hand out all these different and powerful effects so freely to other classes (nb, dk and now warden for example).

So yes, the "I want viable options for non-pet sorcerers" isn't a directly relevant point to the original post, it is still relevant to the conversation as a whole, especially when the non-pet builds used to be just as viable as the pet builds before zos put all of their focus on buffing the pets/prey while simultaneously nerfing/adjusting the other skills without compensation elsewhere in the kit and non-pet builds are highly popular among the player base and have been for a long time.

You say tooltips don't tell the full story, yet they will always tell a much more accurate story (especially if done properly) than the majority of comments, posts and replies that are posted here or on other platforms that don't produce anything at all that adds to the conversation outside of "In my opinion" posts that don't produce any evidence to back those claims up.

Pelanora

Great sorcerers who didn't need summoned creatures
Merlin
Gandalf
Ged Sparrowhawk
Yoda

Great sorcerers who needed creatures
...