Upcoming PTS Combat & Balance Adjustments

PhoenixGrey · July 2022

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We ultimately want to help raise the floor and reduce the ceiling in regard to DPS output,

Why ? This is exactly what is wrong with the game right now and it needs to be severely tweaked in the opposite direction

That is why I would take back ESO beta back anyday !!!

fred4 · July 2022

@ZOS, @ZOS_GinaBruno, can you elaborate on how, in light of the scale of these changes and the scale of the partial reversal, you are still confident this is the right direction for the game? At the very least, does it feel right to push a version of these changes through at this time, given the workload you must have in the next 2 1/2 weeks before release?

The incongruity between your stated goals and the actual changes has left me baffled. PvE communities appear to be disbanding. The pace of change is among the reasons. Helping to get new players up to speed is not easy, yet you serve up one of the most drastic patches in history in the name of helping newer players. According to Nefas, a prominent YouTuber, you've set his Project Vitality back from two years to four years, if it will survive. It's a large scale project to help players get into raiding. You have a great community and you shoot them in the back. It makes no sense.

On the PvP side, how a set like Nocturnals could ever make it off the drawing board is incomprehensible to the experienced PvPer. Please refer to @FrankonPC's excellent video on the topic, In particular how the disruption to buff management by that set will be harder for newer players than for experienced ones. It may indeed require eyes glued to an addon on PC, something you have stated you want to avoid. The timeout better be so ridiculously long (30s+) than no one will ever use the set, because it's fundamentally toxic and has virtually no counterplay. The only partial counterplay that comes to mind is Oakensoul. If you think that favors beginners, make no mistake. Everyone (who stays) will use Oakensoul, even in it's nerfed state.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tuTiivls0Y

The sheer volume of change means that many things will fall through the cracks. Nocturnals isn't the only issue.

The new healing while cleansing set also appears to be seriously broken, due to the amount of times it procs, not just when you actively cleanse.

If heavy attacks scale better than light attacks, what does that mean for partial heavies? Will they outperform light attacks? There is precedent for this. It was apparently among the reasons for buffing light attacks many patches ago. Again, it's the experienced players that will take advantage of partial heavies. I'm not saying this will happen. It depends on the numbers. One thing that's already clear, as of the time of writing, is that the experienced players will have high awareness and uptime of Empower, whereas newer players will not, nor will they wield the Maelstrom staves that every long term player has in their toolbox. Yet another thing that favors the experienced player.

These are all just small examples. The scope of the changes is overwhelming. And for what? No one can possibly work through the mountain you have made for yourselves. Not you, ZOS, and not the players. Things will fall through the cracks. With a big patch, the chance that something major falls through and we'll be stuck with it for 3 months is high.

Finally I'm going to spend three paragraphs on DK Leap. If that feels like a dead horse and I'm losing credibility for mentioning it, please stop reading. For everyone else, DK Leap is still not fixed to my knowledge. Please correct me if I'm wrong. It bugs out in content that has protected platforms, such as in Imperial City and Battlegrounds. Once it does, which happens frequently, you can't use it until you reslot the skill. Worst thing is: You don't know until your life depends on it.

Leap is an iconic skill. The signature skill of DK in PvP. A strong candidate for the most fun PvP skill of all classes. When it works. ZOS broke it. You could leap or gap close to protected platforms in old patches, or possibly use gap closers to gain access to an enemy sewer base. At one point this was fixed. You instantly died when leaping up to an enemy platform in IC, for example. This was fine. You do that once and you learn. These days you can't do that anymore. In trade for that safety net, it appears we got a buggy Leap and possibly other gap closers. That's the clip notes as I understand them.

That you, ZOS, have ignored this for so long, and are continuing to ignore it, is a wonderfully egregious example of the disconnect between players, for whom this matters a great deal, and ZOS. That's why people keep bringing it up. That's why I am doing so.

Moonspawn · July 2022

@ZOS_GinaBruno daedric minefield is already
highly situational
extremely expensive
easily avoidable

The skill could have been made more popular by increasing its damage, extending its duration, or reducing its cost. But no. A creative adjustment was needed. And it boggles the mind. No skill in the history of this game has ever been nerfed to the point where it completely lost any semblance of use... until now.

pklemming · July 2022

Unless it is either an awesome rework, or announcing they are scrapping the changes, I don't think it is going to stop the flood of people leaving. No choice but to wait and see.

I do think that this is their last chance to get it right for most people, I just watched Nefas on FF. Didn't think I would ever see the day.

Urvoth · July 2022

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

Also still waiting for an explanation as to why Unstable Wall is nerfed by 33%. Don't want to hear anything about "overperforming in PvP" either.

No one uses unstable wall in PvP

fred4 · July 2022

Urvoth wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

Also still waiting for an explanation as to why Unstable Wall is nerfed by 33%. Don't want to hear anything about "overperforming in PvP" either.

No one uses unstable wall in PvP

Indeed. With the possible exception of the odd vMA heavy attack build or people laying it down at chokepoints. Even then, they probably use the other morph.

I'll take a shot in the dark here. It must be another example for where ZOS are balancing by spreadsheet and have no idea how this actually plays. It's a great beginner skill and barspace saving skill. However I can't imagine any PvEer not letting this run it's full course in a boss fight, whereas I find it's delayed nature not actually great in more difficult solo content. In vMA I prefer a more responsive AOE skill in addition to a ground AOE, such as Sap Essence, Pulsar, and so on. The other morph used to be the go to morph. I guess the problem is that no one is using that anymore.

tomofhyrule · July 2022

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Additionally, for Dungeons and Trials, we’ll be reducing the health of all bosses on Veteran difficulty and above in the final PTS patch to account for the overall DPS loss. For Trials specifically, we’ll be reducing the health of all Champions and Bannermen on Veteran difficulty and above. The reduction in health for each boss will vary from encounter to encounter, but the results should be that each Dungeon and Trial boss fight will provide a similar challenge to what is on Live currently. The Trial bannermen and Champions provide a challenge in their own right so we felt additional adjustments were warranted.

Thank you for this. I was getting nervous about not-the-top-1% prog groups and the accessibility of those going into things like trial HMs.

Has the team considered the heal checks for these encounters? The reduction in HoTs is still a bit of a pain point, particularly with the oppressive DoTs and/or damage-through-block from the more recent dungeon/trial boss encounters. I'd even go as far as to say the health of a boss is not as much a problem as their damage output. Yes, higher health will make the encounter take a bit longer, but that does nothing to stop the group from having problems healing through it. Reducing the boss damage will help the accessibility of these encounters while still keeping the fights at the desired difficulty level vs. healing potential of the group.

What_In_Tarnation · July 2022

Man.. imagine these knee jerk reactions are actually not knee jerk reactions.

StarOfElyon · July 2022

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Hey Folks, one note regarding the content changes. I previously stated we wanted to gather as much information as possible to gauge the impact of combat changes on the content in the game. This is a multipronged approach which is a collaboration between the Combat, Dungeon and QA Teams as well as player feedback, logs and captures.

Given the overwhelming response and the wealth of information we have collected, we felt confident that we could make these content changes in order to ensure that the game maintained the challenge players are used to without a major shift in difficulty.

Again, thanks to all the community members that have logged on to PTS, played, reported and provided feedback, logs and video captures.

I will say this: you didn't lower the ceiling, you just sunk the entire building lower into the ground. And please delete Nocturnal's Ploy (and also Dark Convergence). I'm tired of these toxic proc sets. As a long time enjoyer of PVP, I still haven't been in IC or Cyrodiil for this event because my no-CP builds aren't ready yet (because I refuse to go into CP pvp and deal with those toxic sets).

HackTheMinotaur · July 2022

@ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_Kevin can you confirm the changes to Veteran bosses will also be implemented in Vet Maelstrom and Vet Vateshran?

Thanks,

BretonMage · July 2022

Thank you for your update. You didn't mention in your post if you will be re-evaluating changes to DoTs, but if you wanted to raise the floor, having DoTs that align in a rotation really helps. Players who struggle in content will be struggling even more with convoluted rotations. In the current PTS state, having buffs, static DoTs and sticky DoTs on the same bar results in an extremely convoluted rotation.

Tannus15 · July 2022

thank god.

such a huge relief, there is a chance that end game trials might be worth persisting with until update 36.

keto3000 · July 2022

Why can't PTS testing be extended for another week?

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm concerned that so many of these changes are coming in the final PTS patch, including class abilities tweaks and the proposed boss health changes to Vet PVE content.

Players may be able to test in that final week, but that not a lot of time for the Devs to respond to reasonable feedback. Nor is there time to test further iterations and tweaks if more changes are needed. Realistically, it seems like there's two options: either the final week's version goes Live or the Live version has untested changes added that we're now "testing" in the main game.

We've all experienced what happens when the Devs lets something go Live so they can gather more data before adjusting it. It can be as small as an unbalanced set or as massive as Scalebreaker's combat changes that were promptly reevaluated three months later in Dragonhold.

I do understand that the Devs are between the rock and hard place of DLC launch deadlines and needing to get this patch out the door. I'm glad to see that changes are being made to the original plan in response to community feedback and testing. I'm not sure there's any way to take more much-needed testing time for the Update.

However, the rapid pace and drastic nature of changes here at the end of the PTS cycle leaves me worried that we're going to get an unfinished and thus unbalanced Live version. Even if what we get is better than the first iteration, that does not mean that what we'll get is good.

And I cannot think of much that would be more damaging to community morale than for this patch to get rushed out and then have the next update or two be spent "fixing" all the stuff the Devs didn't fix before rolling this patch out. Your community already has change fatigue. If the Devs expect that they can come back in over the next couple updates and clean up this messy rollout with small or large changes, that's only going to make the change fatigue worse.

I'm going to end on a brief note about the other MMO-style game I play: Warframe. Their recent update Angels of the Zariman was terribly buggy at launch. Worse, it's quest needed to be nerfed in the first couple days, and two major combat elements they reworked in the update needed to be rebalanced again in the first week or so. Here's what the new Creative Director Rebecca Ford had to say about it:

"I should've held it another week … But there were a lot of reasons we couldn't. And then I started to understand those reasons. Every little thing matters. You're making a hundred micro decisions a day and then they add up. We can't move this update. By the end of the [launch] week we had a more stable build, but that's what stung the most."

Interview: https://www.pcgamer.com/warframe-is-getting-into-the-time-loop-business-with-the-duviri-paradox/

So while I understand the rock and the hard place that ESO's Devs must be in right now, and understand that the Devs may have no choice but to push this Live on time whatever the changes are and fix it later no matter the cost to already fatigued players...I hope they aren't left saying "I should've held it another week."

Selot · July 2022

Buff magblade please

FangOfTheTwoMoons · July 2022

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Isair wrote: »

About Nocturnal’s Ploy tho… has this thing been touched yet?

Yes, there is an adjustment on the cooldown planned for this set in Monday's PTS patch.

I appreciate the thought, but the idea needs to be completely scrapped.

Grumpy_Owl · July 2022

I am a whale that has been harpooned by ZOS. I've mained a Templar for four years. I love my character and have put a lot of time, effort, and $$ into making her just what I want her to be. ZOS has utterly destroyed her in one patch. Why has so much effort by the Devs been put into changes that no one asked for while issues that we've been calling out for a long time still go unaddressed? At this point, I've put so much time, effort and real-world money into my character that I am NOT starting over on another class. I'm installing another MMORPG now. ZOS has lost a cash flow today.

jecks33 · July 2022

I really hope for a complete revert of Dark Cloak because this skill is perfect (and NOT overperforming) as it is on live

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam

usmcjdking · July 2022

Bring back Eric Wrobel.

francesinhalover · July 2022

Many dots are hard to add to rotations. You need to make all dots aoe 10 single 20 If we go by your plan
Maybe make extra dot duration passives/morphs be instead extra dmg to the dot
1sec= 2%

15 duration dots on skills like endless hail are just harder to use. When the majority is 10's , 20's

Personaly id preffer if all aoes were 12 and singles 14

Or...just revert the dot duration changes.

-

Also please revert rapid strikes animation changes. The skill is easy to weave on live and looks good, plz dont ruin it visually.

---

I would preffer if crystal weapon was removed and stam sorce get crystal frags physical dmg version.
Maybe have it be insta cast but do less dmg than the mag version.

fred4 · July 2022

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_Kevin can you confirm the changes to Veteran bosses will also be implemented in Vet Maelstrom and Vet Vateshran?

Thanks,

I wonder. I guess that you and ZOS have a better handle on what this means to newer players, but I was around when Maelstrom was released. This is my first and only MMO. It took me 3 years before I completed vet Maelstrom. Now I hear some people doing it for the first time within 1 1/2 days.

In the grand scheme of things neither of those arenas are super hard content anymore. You had to have very good damage back in the day. We had 5K less health in PvE. If you didn't nuke stuff, you died. The spinning blades in arena 2 were already a problem. They still can be a nuisance (at the very least) when you are on a squishy build or a shielding build (Hexos Ward) that procs shields from damage and there is no target. However, these days there are builds that negate much of that difficulty. At the extreme end of the spectrum I can bash and outtank the Argonian Behemoth when he's screaming, yet still complete the arena in about 1 hour. You can actually gain time (relative to your DPS level) by ignoring mechanics on tanky builds.

It is entirely possible to be quite tanky and pace yourself. Once you've internalised the mechanics you can go squishier later. I'm talking about options such as Brawler sustain builds and high health regen builds from Strategic Reserve. When it comes to the ring of shades in Vateshran, there are class-specific solutions that let you bypass the DPS check for at least some classes. Streak outside. Stand still in the middle and pop Corrosive Armor. Possibly others.

So I wonder where these veteran arenas fall on the difficulty spectrum. Also, aren't they meant to be difficult? There was a time when Stormproof or Flawless counted for something to get you into (vet) trial groups. I'm not saying their difficulty should be raised. I think they're kind of in the middle to high range, but not super high difficulty, if you go in with a suitable build. If ZOS want to bring content closer together, there is arguably some at the very low end that could be made harder and at the very high end that could be brought down. These arenas are already a lot easier than they used to be. Perhaps more importantly, high DPS is no longer the only way to conquer them.

francesinhalover · July 2022

code65536 wrote: »

Thanks. This is what we wanted to hear.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Additionally, for Dungeons and Trials, we’ll be reducing the health of all bosses on Veteran difficulty and above in the final PTS patch to account for the overall DPS loss.

I'm actually more concerned about incoming damage. Healing did take a nerf, and this is one of the common themes that I've seen in Update 35's feedback. PvPers are saying that healing is too strong in PvP, so that the nerfs to healing power were needed, but the amount of incoming damage in PvE is pretty intense.

While much of the attention has been focused on damage output, I think, particularly for the three most recent trials, survivability and our ability to deal with incoming damage is just as important.

Why not just increase anti heal trait on pvp?

francesinhalover · July 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Psssst.

Zos.

Gimme.

My.

Melee.

Spammable.

Also thank you for the weekly feedback and sneak peek. this should happen in every PTS regardless of the Amount of Feedback Received

Would love that spammable on warden or some weapon skill line.
Or at least have it be a dot.

Ariordin · July 2022

Veesk wrote: »

Please reverse the Templar Sweeps/Jab changes. Not only are the nerfs lowering the floor but the new animation is largely disliked. It feels like this is also taking away from Templar class identity.

Please do this ZOS... templars identity has been shattered by this. the new jabs looks likes a Necromancer skill.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

"...we truly believe with some continued adjustments and iterations, this is the best course of action for the long-term health of the game."

Your player base truly disagrees with you. And your spreadsheets.

weights44 · July 2022

This isn’t a troll post or meant to cause drama. Everything I am typing is to grab the attention of Zeno is a positive way.

With all these changes, u35 is going to produce a game breaking bug, or bugs (<——my money is on multiple) and the game will be unplayable to a degree. ***THERE IS A HIGH CHANCE OF SUCCESS THIS WILL HAPPEN…EVERY PATCH FOR TWO YEARS HAS HAD ONE***

1. Nerf damage because power creep is too high
2. Increase the floor
3. Nerf healing
4. Raise damage a little
5. Nerf boss health across the board (overland, dungeons, and trials)
6. Nerf incoming damage because of healing nerf
7. Gut templars

Isn’t this just taking us back to the beginning? The ONLY way to raise the ceiling is to help newer players with a better tutorial on weaving AND uptime on dots/buffs. Otherwise everyone loses damage. Period. I get the idea of needing boss health to make up for the damage nerf. But seriously…this update just took us in circles. And if this game has a major bug sure you may create a hot fix for pc. But console still is forced to endure said bug for 3-6 months. Why?! For the sake of rushing out I tested changes???

Please consider this. Leave the PTS up for the next 3 months. Abort combat changes temporarily for u35. Invest time and energy into this. At least more than a few weeks. Analyze what players are sending you during this time. We do care about the health of this family. Yes you are our family. And we are yours. Without us you don’t get a paycheck. Wi th out you we don’t have this escape from reality. We need each other. It’s about time you guys listen to us. Many of these players understand this game more than your staff. It’s obvious just by watching YouTube. We want to help. Please let us.

Oh and can you just leave templars alone? I have 4 of them. I spent quite a bit of money speed morphing them too. Please just stop.

Matteo11 · July 2022

This is a nice step, but honestly the dismantling of signature abilities like Biting Jabs and fun kit like Oakensoul is a big time bummer.

soldierofzion82 · July 2022

The acknowledgement is great.

And I’m sure the majority of us can hardly imagine how super difficult it must be to sift through all the feedback and data and decide what’s best for everyone (devs AND players) for the long term.

But… I think most of us players are STILL looking at this while scratching our heads saying, “Why exactly is any of this actually necessary?”

Fixing bugs and performance issues are excellent. Minor specific adjustments are warranted.

But… after reading the patch notes SEVERAL times… and after watching half a dozen videos from half a dozen content creators…

I’m just not tracking with the heart of Update 35. Not convinced. It just doesn’t add up.

Try again. We ARE trying to understand.

iPeriphery · July 2022

*This post is not meant to be taken with hostility or harassment towards ZoS. This is just the cold hard truth.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Gilliam You guys are totally missing the point though. I'm not trying to be mean at all, but for this level of a mistake that's about to happen, you really need to take this into consideration or the game's future is bleak.

PLEASE THINK ABOUT WHAT THE IMPACT OF U35 IS GOING TO DO IN THE LONG RUN! THIS JEOPARDIZES YOUR GAMES WHOLE FUTURE... IS IT REALLY WORTH IT?

The changes are so out of touch with what the community actually wants. We're your customers, if we're telling you that the direction you're going with the game is WRONG, then its flat out WRONG.

You create the game that the PLAYERS enjoy, so that THEY can fuel YOUR life by providing YOU the income that YOU NEED to live, which is ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT during these tough times in the world lately. It's literally your JOB.... Biting the hand that feeds you is NEVER a wise idea.

The dev's can think the community is whiney all they want, but at the end of the day; This game is so much fun and is so valuable and enjoyed by your players, I being one of them.

Please stop trying to ruin our fun, for the sake of some vague design vision that doesn't even make sense and just further diverges from the original intended path that actually had a clear vision.

Over the 8 years I've played this game, the amount of change is rediculous; and the sad part is that besides cosmetic and QoL Features added, it's only been a downgrade. ESPECIALLY REGARDING THE COMBAT.

As a PVP Player, I can only DREAM of the fun unique class skills and identity that used to exist in this game.
I especially loved the balance around the time of Imperial City's release.

Mostly because there weren't so many skill-less sets that carry you in PVP with procs or BS effects like Dark Convergence that can suck up entire groups.

It sucks getting beat by a worse player than you in PVP when they only win because of their gear set carrying them.

Now don't get me wrong, I think that the hybridization changes allow for a fun and unique playstyle that many of us were PINING for during the release of the game, because of how many different abilities and unique combinations that worked there were, and hybridization at that time (Especially since almost all the good skills scaled off of magicka at that point); but even though it was a great idea, I think that it was poorly executed.

And if you guys would be honest and just listen to our feedback, we could work together to make this game better.

Which would inveitably in turn make you guys MORE MONEY because if you have a happy playerbase with good quality content and a FUN FAST PACED UNIQUE CLASS PLAYSTYLE ENIVORNMENT; you don't need to do much else except explore your creative freedom coming up with new areas and content for the game instead of GUTTING and OVERHAULING the combat system EVERY 3-6 MONTHS.

It's like the old saying, "Happy Wife, Happy Life".

You are essentially married to us (The Playerbase), and we are your wife.

[snip]

When it's so unanimous that Even PVE and PVP communities are on the same page, you know that it must be a mistake.

We don't want to wait until U36 for you guys to realize you made the wrong decision and then backtrack and un-nerf everything.

I've been playing since beta and have seen this happen TIME and TIME AGAIN.

You can only continue alienating and berating your player base for so long before they leave. Nobody asked for ANY of these HORRIBLE changes.

Unless you completely scrap U35, you won't have a game left to make money from.

WAKE UP ZOS! Before it's too late, and honestly it might already be. If update 35 goes live this game will be just as dead as New World.

What about GUTTING every single class, and their class identity is fun? We play this game to have FUN, not be stressed by having the rug pulled from underneath us every 3-6 months.

Stop trying to balance the game around the top 1% of Raiders and start balancing PVE and PVP seperately.

Who cares if the TOP 1% are so good at the game that they are pulling huge DPS? Obviously they put the time and effort into gaining that skill, and that is deserved and should be rewarded. It literally effects NOBODY else.

If you are trying to make the game more ACCESSIBLE then why in the bloodyhell are you NERFING EVERYONE ACROSS THE BOARD? Especially INCREDIBLY SHORTSIGHTED changes like Nerfing the whole Sorcerer class because of 1 busted set like Savage WW

OR an even better example, nerfing twisted path for NB's because you have this obsession with making EVERYTHING standardized and homogenized.

Making every class the same except for maybe 2 or 3 abilities is SO SO SO BORING. Stop ruining what was unique about the game. The original combat team was on the right path and had an actual vision that was fun. This game has turned into a bastardization of it's former glory.

Stop trying to come at this with a spreadsheet and math mentality.... Spreadsheets and data CANNOT DETERMINE WHAT IS FUN OR ENJOYABLE FOR YOUR PLAYERBASE, and sure as hell WILL NOT keep your customers happy.

It's kind of sad how fast the player base can see the glaring issues in the changes you guy propose every single time there is a patch like this."

Do you know why this is?

You should also try playing your own game at a high level. Because it's pretty obvious that you don't, and that's not a good thing.

If you actually play your game, then you learn first hand from a players perspective. This allows you to have a better grasp on what changes should ACTUALLY be made for your game, as well as having a better fundamental understanding of your game.

This in turn allows you to have the skillset required to do your JOB better and more EFFECTIVELY.

ZoS, I love you guys for making my favorite game of all time, but it's seriously time for you to get a reality check; because if this patch goes through you won't have a job for much longer.

Mark my words, Update 35 will be the beginning of the end for ESO; and it will be a worse disaster than Warlords of Drenor/Shadowlands for WoW, or the dumpster fire that was New World.

Be Wise and learn from other gaming company's failures. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Hotdog_23 · July 2022

Thank you for the communication and listening and considering feedback given by the community. Please remember communication is a two-way street and never ending.

Stay safe

Maul_Rat · July 2022

Can you just make players do more damage?