KoIIegoIas wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

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TheEndBringer wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Not just cloak, invisibility as a whole is a bad mechanic in the game that needs to be looked at.

It certainly needs to cost more than sprinting, which applies to cloak as well if you have the right build esp. in CP.

Cloak absolutely costs more than sprinting...

Your build is not the only build in the game

Cloak costs are 3780 magicka and lasts 3 seconds. Show us a build where you pay 3780 stamina for 3 seconds sprint.

Not sure where this comparison comes from but it’s not it’s not very relevant.

Cloak has numerous counters that *** it’s use down. I cannot think of another skill in the game a player can render useless such as what can be done with cloak. As such cloak is far from OP unless someone chooses to let it be so.

katorga wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

I still think giving it the same treatment as streak and dodge roll could work well- increase the cost the more you use it.

Consistent treatment is fair.

The current counters to cloak are much stronger than the cost increase that streak and dodge roll have.

On my Sorc I can put a football field between me and whoever I am trying to escape before that cost increase depletes my magicka. Yet I can zap a NB out of cloak and pawn them with ease because Zenimax gave us such strong powers against NBs.

I've given upwards of 20 examples of why all these nerf suggestions cannot work in the game as currently built. I have not had any of them refuted, but rather ignored. Most of the complaints in this thread are just silly and more than a few the posters are drastically misinformed on how cloak and its counters work.

So I'm leaving this thread because it's not a constructive discussion. The last ten complaints have already been answered in previous posts.

Here's what it boils down to.

Stealth fighting is the cornerstone of this class, whether you like it or not. You can brawl and heal in pvp on a NB but I'm most scenarios you're more effective at that on other classes, thus it's easier, and as such most players who want to play that way go DK or Necro. Killing cloak doesn't change that.

I don't play on PC anymore but on XB, in big battles, there might be 2 to 3 nightblades on each side. Meanwhile you'll see a horde of DKs, necros and templars, with a few sorcs and wardens sprinkled in. A gank NB is limited to direct damage, single target attacks, unlike everyone else. So yes we can do big three second bursts but we aren't 1vXing a ball group or zerg. Our impact on the battlefield is greatly limited. Many people here seem to think we are wiping full groups and stacking the leaderboards. You know what build makes the worst emp? A gank blade.

ZOS's answer to these threads has been to include more and more ways to defend against NBs, specifically ganks. Use them, please. I want you to kill NBs.

If you want to dump Caluurions, give me another way to kill your big heal big mitigation builds. I'd rather not run it. But 90% of you are DK, necro or templar. Damage and pen aren't enough.

I can't solo kill tanks. Someone claimed that nonsense above. If they got 35k+ health and high armor when just one defense set I'm gonna need help. I'll probably need more than one. I can kill less skilled healers wearing bad sets.

Sprint is so much cheaper than cloak. Why is the opposite still being said?

I've already pointed out who you can't put a ramping cost on cloak because of many variables. The number of things that break cloak do not stop at just enemy reveal skills. I have spam the skill just to get into a keep because of guards. I have to spam it again to get inside the inner. I have to spam it to get into a resource tower to kill the guard up top so it doesn't nuke me while I'm on the pin. I have to spam it when the guard on the wall faces me even though I'm at the back on the siege line. I have to spam it when a fireball that was shot at me hits me after I just hit cloak and it breaks it. That's just PVP NPCs. If I start going through enemy players in pvp and enemy monsters in PvE, we'll be there all day. But here's one example of enemy player attacks.

Surviving one haunting curse costs me 15k to 18k of mag. If you put a ramping cost, my 21k mag pool will not be enough to save me. It's going to break my stealth. The damage alone might kill me before vigor can heal me. If it doesn't, all the enemies will because I ran out of mag.

Final point and then I'm gone.

Anti Nightblade posts have been around from the beginning because players want to fight what is in front of them without worrying about their flank. It's boring PVP. You want to 1vX. You want to drag other players around a keep. You want to just trade attacks back and forth from another enemy running the same basic set up to determine who's "the best." So in all those examples, a nightblade is the ultimate thorn in your side. We ruin your imaginary 1v1's. We attack you when your defenses are sloppy. We don't just stand there and let you kill us like other players.

The way we play isn't any less invalid than a necro bomber, a ball group, or a 1vXer who needs 20 people to kill them. Everything however needs to be balanced, and unlike the 1vXer, ball groups and the necro bomber, ZOS has taken several steps to empower players to kill nightblades. You have all the tools. The failure to use even one of them correctly tests on the enemy player, not the NB.

Peace,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Nightblade
Very Evil, Very Nice

KoIIegoIas wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Once again if counters to cloak are so useless than let's add same counters to damage shields, healing, roll dodge and streak/BoL (somehow), then cloak can be nerfed. You get nerfed cloak for "meaningless" counters. Do we have a deal?

Actually, yes. Let's add skills that you have to slot in order to counter shields. And if you don't slot them, you can't break the shield. Give up bar space to counter the skill of one class, like other classes have to do for NBs.

I'd like to have skill that could break the shield with one hit - let's tie it to all AoE skills, ok? And I wan't a skill that will prevent people around me from using heals. I will definetly slot it.

You don't have to slot anything to break cloak. Every class has those skills on bars:
1. Templar? - Jabs
2. DK? Volatile, Taloons, Fiery Breath
3. Sorc? Streak
4. NB? .. Actually NBs have to slot special skill to reveal other NB's because NB's skills suck. Nobody slosts Mark Target because it's 2x worse than destro staff Weakness to Elements.
5. Necro? Blastbones, Death Scythe
6. Warden? Well this is the only class that have it harder than others, Scorch is bad at revealing NB's.

Can we make pls that AoE skills break any shield with one hit, cancel your last direct heal, and pull you back to your position before casting streak or dodge rolling? Because thats the impact of all mentioned above, YOU HAVE IT ON YOUR BAR ALREADY and you can cancel the cloak with it.

Revealing skills are another level of counter, they prevent NB's from USING cloak.

Jabs - requires them to be in and remain in melee range, anything outside of that and jabs is entirely useless. Also requires knowing exactly where they are, while they are invisible...

Volatile, Tallons, Firey breath - Same issues as Jabs

Streak - Requires knowing exactly were they are, while they are invisible. Streak's cone is incredibly unreliable. Also, more likely to put you behind the nightblade if you somehow do get lucky and streak through them, which means they instantly break free and are invisible again before you can even turn around to see them

Warden and NB - Yeah, they have nothing effective either

Necro - BB requires a target, hard to target something who is invisible, Death Scythe is melee, also requires knowing where they are, while invisible.

These effective means that classes have are not really effective. Whenever anyone uses one of these to pull a NB from stealth, it is entirely incidental outside of the top like 5% of players.

You know what I can do on my Bowblade, sit at range of my light attacks and bow skills, and only leave stealth to attack, back into stealth to re-position, time cloak to land a snipe crit or a scourge crit, back into stealth to re-position. Not a single skill you listed is going to be effective at removing me from stealth or even locating me a few seconds after I attack.

Jabs - doesnt require to know exact position, only the direction because its a coan and easy to predict where to use it in the middle of the fight. I am not talking fighting against *** snipe nightblade bots, wich cloak after every other skill, while killing only npc or pepega's. Same with breath. About volatile and talons just that they are full Aoes.
And since people use magelight or camohunter, if jabs fail. it doest make a difference anyway.

Streak - depends on the player. Fact is that 90% of sorc keep hauntig curse up, wich expose you aswell.

Idk about warden, but earden isnt restricted to just classskills and can make use of anything. But i use mark target on my magblade anyway and refresh it every time, when an enemy nightblade get some distance to me and as stamblade i use camohunter. In an other stamblade build i use caltrops.

Necro - BB when cast in time before i cloak, it still follows me and exposes my position. Death scythe is melee yes, but the most people argue about nightblades wich actually Fight melee mostly, instead snipers wich are completly useless, except of killing some newbies or pepaga zerglings.

Yes it is hard to locate you in range. But snipers arent killing any decent players also. And definitely not with that cloak - skill - cloak - cloak playstyle just to get crits happen xDDDD. Atleast not without the lag on your side. But if they are fast and manage to come to your direction. Then your sniper is done. And if people need a few seconds until they start to attack you, then they are bad. Good players dont wait for you until you are gone. They tryhard you and enjoy the tbag after.

Last time i got killed by a sniper was minimum 5 years ago, if not longer and nobody rly cares about snipers.

On wich server are you playing? I would like to fight your sniper to see if you can backup what you say.

...and about DK Volatile has 10m radius around DK so it's almost as good as mage light and is cheaper than cloak so in the end DK always win.

KoIIegoIas wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

KoIIegoIas wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Not just cloak, invisibility as a whole is a bad mechanic in the game that needs to be looked at.

It certainly needs to cost more than sprinting, which applies to cloak as well if you have the right build esp. in CP.

Cloak absolutely costs more than sprinting...

Your build is not the only build in the game

Cloak costs are 3780 magicka and lasts 3 seconds. Show us a build where you pay 3780 stamina for 3 seconds sprint.

Not sure where this comparison comes from but it’s not it’s not very relevant.

Cloak has numerous counters that *** it’s use down. I cannot think of another skill in the game a player can render useless such as what can be done with cloak. As such cloak is far from OP unless someone chooses to let it be so.

That comparison was made because a dude has claimed that sprint costs more ressources than cloak. Since you didnt know the context it is quite questionable to judge the relevance. [snip]

I understood you hadn’t made the comparison amd was merely pointing out it was not a relevant comparison.

All that needs to be said for this thread is that any player can choose to shut down the use of sneak and render it useless with the numerous very effective counters. That is part of the overall design of combat ans is why the NB cloak is not OP by any means.

[edited to remove quote]