SOMETHING needs to be done about fake roles in the finder

FeedbackOnly · May 2022

hundergrn wrote: »

When versatility is dead and meta pulls all high number dps and no viability... TES can implement strict role policies where certain skills are required to heal or tank. Till then, you have the option to balance your dps, self healing, and survivability. This isn't WoW, this isn't FF14, this isn't a classic mmorpg.

A reputation system would only weed out a few of the worst. The rest will be mixed in with the bad healers and tanks. When they decline due to poor rep the queues will still be long.

Groups can vary greatly and not all will blend well (even in 'proper' roles). You can find groups were all but the healer wipes and you spend the next 25 mins rooting for the pissed off healer soloing a dlc boss with 4-6k dps. You will find groups where the tank is garbage. You will find groups where dps love the floor so much that they'll run from the healer and tank just to have a taste. You will have 'fake' tanks that will never taunt but can still pull and hold the mashpit while flash snipping the few that break away. You will have 'fake' tanks that are paperbags and make the healer want to alt-f4. You will have healers with god complex. Healers who don't heal. Healers who just want to stab things. You will have the one that 'wants to go fast'. You will have a normal group now and then.

Make a few builds for yourself and maybe grab an addon for fast swapping of gear and skills. Your good group 'doing your job the best you can' set, a 'this is sus' balance of dps/selfheal/survivable set, and the 'guess ill be the tank' survival/troll set. There are options.

There is also communication! Give curtesy if your in a dungeon that you are unfamiliar with, if you are new, if you have issues with a part. Fake tanks/healers just say you are faking (if you are good enough) and let the group decide if they want to adjust or let you pretend you are soloing it. Bad fakes... well you have an extra set that will keep you going when they try to burn you and whisper the group to hear their opinion. If a group goes yeet and forgoes rolls and wants a pure dps run, you got that covered too.

If bad tanks/healers get left behind (no rez, kicked, no heal, if they wanna dps let them tank too) they will cry and vent but they will get the idea and youll have one less to worry. The queue is abysmal with pure tank/healer and the wait will be longer, promise. No one likes to tank a dungeon and do nothing. No one likes to tank a hard dungeon and sweat bullets when dps is weak. No one likes to heal those that are stupid. No one likes to heal when a glance is enough to make one lick dirt. A bad healer for a tank is a bad healer. A bad tank give the group pain. 2 DPS licking window panes and noodle slapping pushes there to be 1 less tank and healer each.

TLDR Viability/Versatility vs Structured roles. DPS chasing glass cannons vs survivability. Bad Tank vs Fake Tank. Healer same. Frustration when toxic hits vs chance to find up front with communication. One trick pony vs optional backup plans.

The problem is why can DPS still do nearly same amount of damage and still heal without much lost?

Is that fair to those who actually build for it?

Heydan_Seegil · May 2022

Why fake your role anyway? Even as a DPS I find a party in like under a minute typically?

peacenote · May 2022

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

hundergrn wrote: »

When versatility is dead and meta pulls all high number dps and no viability... TES can implement strict role policies where certain skills are required to heal or tank. Till then, you have the option to balance your dps, self healing, and survivability. This isn't WoW, this isn't FF14, this isn't a classic mmorpg.

A reputation system would only weed out a few of the worst. The rest will be mixed in with the bad healers and tanks. When they decline due to poor rep the queues will still be long.

Groups can vary greatly and not all will blend well (even in 'proper' roles). You can find groups were all but the healer wipes and you spend the next 25 mins rooting for the pissed off healer soloing a dlc boss with 4-6k dps. You will find groups where the tank is garbage. You will find groups where dps love the floor so much that they'll run from the healer and tank just to have a taste. You will have 'fake' tanks that will never taunt but can still pull and hold the mashpit while flash snipping the few that break away. You will have 'fake' tanks that are paperbags and make the healer want to alt-f4. You will have healers with god complex. Healers who don't heal. Healers who just want to stab things. You will have the one that 'wants to go fast'. You will have a normal group now and then.

Make a few builds for yourself and maybe grab an addon for fast swapping of gear and skills. Your good group 'doing your job the best you can' set, a 'this is sus' balance of dps/selfheal/survivable set, and the 'guess ill be the tank' survival/troll set. There are options.

There is also communication! Give curtesy if your in a dungeon that you are unfamiliar with, if you are new, if you have issues with a part. Fake tanks/healers just say you are faking (if you are good enough) and let the group decide if they want to adjust or let you pretend you are soloing it. Bad fakes... well you have an extra set that will keep you going when they try to burn you and whisper the group to hear their opinion. If a group goes yeet and forgoes rolls and wants a pure dps run, you got that covered too.

If bad tanks/healers get left behind (no rez, kicked, no heal, if they wanna dps let them tank too) they will cry and vent but they will get the idea and youll have one less to worry. The queue is abysmal with pure tank/healer and the wait will be longer, promise. No one likes to tank a dungeon and do nothing. No one likes to tank a hard dungeon and sweat bullets when dps is weak. No one likes to heal those that are stupid. No one likes to heal when a glance is enough to make one lick dirt. A bad healer for a tank is a bad healer. A bad tank give the group pain. 2 DPS licking window panes and noodle slapping pushes there to be 1 less tank and healer each.

TLDR Viability/Versatility vs Structured roles. DPS chasing glass cannons vs survivability. Bad Tank vs Fake Tank. Healer same. Frustration when toxic hits vs chance to find up front with communication. One trick pony vs optional backup plans.

The problem is why can DPS still do nearly same amount of damage and still heal without much lost?

Is that fair to those who actually build for it?

But they can't, really.

A real healer, even in a pug, will do things like... add an interrupt or purge as needed, swap to Ebon, Worm, and different monster sets to add group utility, add more damage when the DPS are green and struggling... the list goes on and on. Once you step into healing and tanking, there isn't "a build." You start lugging around lots of gear and swap in a wide variety of abilities as needed.

DPS slapping a few heals on can't do that. If they truly brought the utility sets and whatnot there would be a bigger DPS loss.

Anyway, I say to this and all similar threads: be careful what you wish for, folks. Anything that dumbs down the system or restricts queuing in a role will likely be worse than the problems we have today because it will take away flexibility and fun.

Jpk0012 · May 2022

Pevey wrote: »

Agreed, the only way I found to avoid the issue of fake tanks was to slot a taunt and start queuing as tank myself. And I avoid the issue of fake healers by slotting my own heals.

A rep system of some sort would be great. It will probably never be implemented because players who are just bad and not malicious would be put with the anti-social people, and would probably just stop doing dungeons and never get better. It could create a huge barrier to entry.

Exactly what I do. Bonus you get dungeons very quickly. I rarely ever see a fake healer. So rare, I'm not even worried about it. I worry about the dps being terrible.

Kalik_Gold · May 2022

How about finder give an option for "No Role" Sheogorath Dungeons, with an added bonus for weirdness. Take all the 4DPS, and self healing builds there.

Agenericname · May 2022

Amottica wrote: »

Molydeus wrote: »

Vote to kick the faker, and if it doesn't pass leave the group. I refuse to play with fakers and as a "real" healer it doesn't take me long to get a new group going if I bail. I stick to vet dungeons because it weeds out most of the losers who queue for fake roles.

and it seems logical if people vote kicked them often it would go a long way to curb this behavior. It can persist only if the player base permits it.

I dont really agree with many of the proposed solutions, but vote to kick is at best unreliable and a fairly simple tactic to hedge against. The "fake role" only need queue with a partner to insure they cant be kicked. If its a normal, which is where the majority of the complaints come from, then it doesnt truly matter if the two players who voted in favor of the kick leave or not.

If it happened to be a dungeon that required more than a solo player could accomplish, the fake role wouldnt eat a penalty if they were one of the last 2 to leave the group. The two that left intially would have the penalty. So leaving in protest doesnt punish them as much as it does the two who left.

Im not against voting to kick, at all, but it wont stop it.

I do agree with @Molydeus in most cases is less of a problem in vet dungeons. Even less in vet DLCs. And non existant in premade groups.

Marginis · May 2022

A reputation system would be excellent - just make sure that it doesn't have harsh enough penalties for trolls to abuse it. A positive rating option would also be nice - the more positive feedback you have the more you are matched with others with the positive feedback. Something like the system in Overwatch, where you can call out sportsmanship/good teammate/shot caller, for a tiny boost of XP and a boost in rep for them, would be excellent (even if it was purely placebo and did nothing, it would encourage players to be better to each other).

But again, just as long as I can't get shoved into a queue with terrible players because some randoms I get grouped with get mad that they were dying, despite the fact that they were walking into instant kill zones and weren't actually targeted by a single NPC because of my excellent taunting, let alone targeted by any of the bosses, with me not dying once, despite getting no heals (healer was focusing on keeping them alive so I just handled my own health), AND I even revived them a multiple times. So long as those toxic DPSes can't abuse the system is my point.

Might be helpful too to force players who queue as tank to slot a taunt, and players who queue as healer to slot at least one ability that heals other players. It won't stop fake tanks and fake healers, but it would at least be a disincentive for queuing as tank when you're not a tank, having one less ability to use. Heck, just to be fair, we can even make it required for a DPS to have at least one ability slotted that does damage. Should at least stop people who don't know how to slot abilities from queuing for the dungeon finder.

FeedbackOnly · May 2022

Heydan_Seegil wrote: »

Why fake your role anyway? Even as a DPS I find a party in like under a minute typically?

Kalik_Gold wrote: »

How about finder give an option for "No Role" Sheogorath Dungeons, with an added bonus for weirdness. Take all the 4DPS, and self healing builds there.

That part of the problem. 4 DPS do fine because taunt isn't important and self heals are just better than a healer

Kalik_Gold · May 2022

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Heydan_Seegil wrote: »

Why fake your role anyway? Even as a DPS I find a party in like under a minute typically?

Kalik_Gold wrote: »

How about finder give an option for "No Role" Sheogorath Dungeons, with an added bonus for weirdness. Take all the 4DPS, and self healing builds there.

That part of the problem. 4 DPS do fine because taunt isn't important and self heals are just better than a healer

I know that's how my guild mates run most things up to Vet Hardmode, 4dps or 3dps tank. By taking off the selection at grouping in my "no role dungeon finder", they could continue to play this way even if a random is added.

Ishtarknows · May 2022

Yes, we need to have a separate queue without specific roles with a popup explaining what this means. That way you can go 4 DDs or whatever while knowing that you might need to supply a taunt or heal yourself. It'll make queues go much quicker

jle30303 · May 2022

My plan is to use the armory system to set up a "basic selfish tank" role for all my characters who aren't tanks for preference. Something simple like Ebon / Leeching / Malubeth, with attr points specced for health and skill points for sword, board, heavy armour, Puncture, Inner Fire, and a 1-bar skill setup that can frankly tank anything in normal and anything non-DLC in vet... And use the second free armory slot for switching back to regular stats/skills/gear afterwards (and update that "regular gear" as and when I change it).

xXSilverDragonXx · May 2022

The endless debates about this topic are silly simply because there is no way to fix this. Even if they do a check on the way in, people can change things once inside.

The only way to fix it would be to change actual mechanics so you don't need tanks or healers. Beyond that, how on earth do people expect this to be changed? Tell me your ideas. How can you keep fake healers and fake tanks out of the queue?

The only thing people can do is be prepared to deal with it if you get one. Be prepared to quit the dungeon. Slot a heal. You should always slot a heal. What happens if the healer is dead or has to break free and doesn't have enough stamina to do it quickly because they have already used it (remember healers have very little stamina and some of these DLCs can burn through it with dodges, break frees, etc) You should always have a heal slotted just to survive in the even something happens to the healer. As for tank, nothing you can do other than slot a taunt yourself, kick the fake tank, leave or be the tank. And really the queue for healer has gotten longer over the years. Fakes probably come in more as tanks and think their DPS is adding to getting it done faster so who cares.

Doctor_Demento · May 2022

People don't always have to choose Tank. Sometimes the game changes one of my characters from DPS to Tank. It is not a tank. I change it back to DPS and the GAME changes it back to Tank again. Not everytime, but a lot. It is ungodly annoying. I have 14 characters. It is the only one that does it. At my RL money expense I deleted the character and recreated it. It still does it. As a DPS it does really good. As a Tank it sucks because it is not a Tank. As much as I like the character I don't play it as much as the others. Yes I filed a ticket. No reply.

lunaslide · May 2022

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Your argument is based on "If you sign up as a tank, you need to play the tank role or you're disrespecting your teammates"

My argument is, "If you sign up as a DPS, you need to be able to do enough DPS to get through the content in a reasonable amount of time, or you're disrespecting your teammates"

Do you know why it's so hard to get proper tanks to queue in this game? Because those that actually queue as tanks get stuck with people who can't burn down the boss and give up tanking in frustration. I will never tank a PUG group again for that reason.

For the bolded: I'm sorry, but are you saying that people are doing bad DPS because they want to? And that it would be a bad thing for ZOS to teach people to improve the way they play? Because that's not a great argument when you want to add a system to report people.

I fully respect your right to play a DPS the way you want to, even if it suboptimal. Play the way you want is the motto of the game after all.

But I'll also ask you to respect other players when they want to get the content done faster (or at the very least in a reasonable amount of time)

I want to know where the fire is. Flip it around. If you want to buzzsaw through a dungeon as fast as you can, do it with friends instead of using hapless others from the queue. Just yesterday I couldn't finish a quest for the skill point on my alt because as I was pressing B, the group was disbanded and it kicked me from the dungeon (DSII where you have to go back outside to finish). And that was Vet random, not normal.

I don't pug much as a tank either, but it's not for the reason you state. I'm sick of people racing ahead and pulling, making a mess of my job, failing to realize if they just let me do my thing I'd have them stacked and racked to burn down in a couple seconds. I even run RotWH so I can overcome the heavy armor movement speed debuff, but everyone is in such a hurry they'd rather make a mess than do it properly (which would be faster).

Just enforcing skill/set ability isn't going to solve this, there are a lack of tanks because it's made so unpleasant by the bad behavior of other players, not just a lack of DPS. I try to tell people at the beginning "This will go faster if you let me pull", and sometimes they do and it's really fun. Most of the time it's "Whatever bro" and I let them die a few times if they don't get the message, and then they try to kick me. But mostly, I queue as DPS and fish or farm until I get a slot because who needs the hassle when I'm playing a game to have fun.

Maybe reexamine why you play the game if you're always in such a hurry to get to the next thing. I've done most of these dungeons a lot of times, it's not the content that makes it fun, it's the people when you get a good group. MMO's used to be about cooperation being the fun that other types of game could not bring. Sadly, it's all gone the way of massively alone online.

newtinmpls · May 2022

Pevey wrote: »

It actually doesn’t. These are antisocial people. They don’t care what the community thinks of them. You just waste your own time kicking them because they can queue again immediately and will get another group immediately.

I disagree.

It's never a waste of my time to kick a person who is unpleasant to be around.

orgin_stadia · May 2022

Would be hilarious if the tank role was autotaunting now and then in dungeons

The3sFinest · May 2022

I am so tired of fake roles that I have decided to join those in favor of removing the transmute crystal reward. At least to see if it will reduce the issue, if not, then I will support bonus xp removal as well, move these rewards to vet only.

You are not only annoying people like me, but mostly frustrating new players who haven't done the dungeon before, questers. You are the only ones skipping ahead, exploiting shortcuts just to grab the bonus rewards. Before you tell them to pre-group, maybe you are the one that needs to.