SOMETHING needs to be done about fake roles in the finder

adamsmith42

Now I don't mind when a strong DPS slots a taunt and queues as a tank for a RND, it usually makes the run faster and easier, most most of the time fakes are just (lousy) DPS who don't want to wait in the queue like everyone else; I just got out of a *painful* Falkreath run where both the tank and healer were fakes, no taunt or heals slotted even (or at least never cast), and they weren't strong enough to have been able to clear it just the two of them.. and they were friends so vote to kick went nowhere... And of course they were both immediately nasty when something was said...

Like I said, I don't mind when a DPS who can solo the place runs as tank/heals (especially since those players usually at least slot a taunt or heal in case things go badly), but I would GLADLY give up those runs to be free of all the weak DW/bow nightblades who ruin the experience for everyone else because they can't be bothered to wait a few minutes in the queue.

Bat

Something like a "bad sport" system should be simple enough to implement. You queue as a tank but have absolutely no way to taunt enemies (no skill points put on inner fire or destructive touch)? Bad sport. Get 10 Bad sport queues through activity finder without being full premade team and you will forever be placed in queues with other bad sports.

Problem solved!

Pevey

Agreed, the only way I found to avoid the issue of fake tanks was to slot a taunt and start queuing as tank myself. And I avoid the issue of fake healers by slotting my own heals.

A rep system of some sort would be great. It will probably never be implemented because players who are just bad and not malicious would be put with the anti-social people, and would probably just stop doing dungeons and never get better. It could create a huge barrier to entry.

sPark101

ESO picks the rolls.

neferpitou73

Again, I will take complaints about fake tanks seriously when the average DPS can do more than 20k in a dungeon. Until then if some uber DPS wants to queue up and make the dungeon go faster I have no issues.

I think a better solution to this would be to actually teach people how to DPS ingame instead of having everyone rely on youtube videos

chessalavakia_ESO

Bat wrote: »

Something like a "bad sport" system should be simple enough to implement. You queue as a tank but have absolutely no way to taunt enemies (no skill points put on inner fire or destructive touch)? Bad sport. Get 10 Bad sport queues through activity finder without being full premade team and you will forever be placed in queues with other bad sports.

Problem solved!

It'd likely be a bit more complicated than that due to sets such as Tormentor and due to players being aware of the implementation and adjusting.

Dem_kitkats1

The only way this would change is to increase dungeon difficulty and make it more difficult for groups to clear them without supports. This would be difficult because the game supports a large solo community, and players don't like to be restricted by roles. So unless full support toons are actually required for most content, players will not be punished for fake queuing (other than receiving angry words from group members) because they'll still get the rewards from completing the content because they can.

DigiAngel

Leave and wait the 15. Normal dungeons no sweat, dlc dungeons and it does weed out the fakes.

DigiAngel

Also, lately, for me at least, "a few minutes" has been up to 25 minute waits as a DPS (I farm stuff and do overland quests so no harm no foul). No clue how/if there's a real "fix" for the queue times, but I imagine if you fix the source of the problem, fakes would clear up a bit.

Zezin

This is a problem with how much the randoms reward you for doing something that for end game players is trivial and easy, for me for example I can solo pretty much any dungeon that doesn't have a mechanic where you need a group so it's not a problem for me having inner fire and taunting bosses and the big adds in fact it's a nice dps boost with the 10% extra damage the taunt gives me.

I have some tank characters but honestly I don't like bringing them into pugs, there's always a big chance I'll get a group with dps so low it would be faster if I was by myself on one of my dps.

Not that any of the above excuses queuing as tank and not having a taunt and not being able to survive on that role, but it makes sense some people will see good solo dps players being able to do it and just try it themselves without actually knowing what they're doing, it's honestly a problem I don't see any way of fixing that wouldn't interfere with some people's playstyle. Maybe have it as a requirement that you need a taunt skill or set that pulls agro for queuing as tank? Even then it could be bad for pre made groups of 4 dps just farming for gear.

adamsmith42

sPark101 wrote: »

ESO picks the rolls.

It defaults the roles based on your build, but you can choose any role by clicking the icon in the group finder.

proprio.meb16_ESO

This must be the 942th thread about fake roles in pug... yeah it sucks... no they wont do anything, better if you play dungeons with friends and guildies otherwise youll find fake roles every now and then (which is not that horrible if youre playing a decent build)

xXSilverDragonXx

Bat wrote: »

Something like a "bad sport" system should be simple enough to implement. You queue as a tank but have absolutely no way to taunt enemies (no skill points put on inner fire or destructive touch)? Bad sport. Get 10 Bad sport queues through activity finder without being full premade team and you will forever be placed in queues with other bad sports.

Problem solved!

Let's not pretend ZOS or this game design is capable of that kind of magic. It can barely run the queue now. If it has to check skills? Full breakdown.

MEBengalsFan2001

Bat wrote: »

Something like a "bad sport" system should be simple enough to implement. You queue as a tank but have absolutely no way to taunt enemies (no skill points put on inner fire or destructive touch)? Bad sport. Get 10 Bad sport queues through activity finder without being full premade team and you will forever be placed in queues with other bad sports.

Problem solved!

PS5 has rate the player after each dungeon. I ran my PVP players through as fake healers and I usually get a good ranking, maybe because like the OP said slot a heal as a fake healer. I typically slot two heals to help the group out.

Kahnak

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Again, I will take complaints about fake tanks seriously when the average DPS can do more than 20k in a dungeon. Until then if some uber DPS wants to queue up and make the dungeon go faster I have no issues.

I think a better solution to this would be to actually teach people how to DPS ingame instead of having everyone rely on youtube videos

I think that your assumption that the fake tanks are uber DPS is the wrong one, especially considering you assert that the average DPS can't do more than 20K in the preceding statement. The solution is to teach people how to DPS rather than expect people not to do something that is obviously subverting the system? You forget that many of these people don't even necessarily care about doing more than 20k DPS, or have any interest in listening to some stranger's advice on the DPS role. The last time I suggested that I could help someone with their build, their response was '[snip] you, this is MY build.'. What I and many other people advocate for is players honoring the roles they sign up for, which is totally reasonable. What you are advocating for is a solution for casual DPS under the false assumption that the only reason they aren't doing more damage is that ZOS hasn't taught them how. Don't worry, the people that want to do good DPS are going to find a way to do it. Casuals make up like 70% of the playerbase.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Bat

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Bat wrote: »

Something like a "bad sport" system should be simple enough to implement. You queue as a tank but have absolutely no way to taunt enemies (no skill points put on inner fire or destructive touch)? Bad sport. Get 10 Bad sport queues through activity finder without being full premade team and you will forever be placed in queues with other bad sports.

Problem solved!

It'd likely be a bit more complicated than that due to sets such as Tormentor and due to players being aware of the implementation and adjusting.

Well players could get a fair warning. "You are about to queue as a (role) without being able to fulfill that role. Are you sure you want to queue? Queuing too many times like this will put you in the bad sports queue pool."

AuraNebula

Just leave group. This topic has been going on since the game started. It's never going to get fixed. Just leave group and re-queue.

neferpitou73

Kahnak wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Again, I will take complaints about fake tanks seriously when the average DPS can do more than 20k in a dungeon. Until then if some uber DPS wants to queue up and make the dungeon go faster I have no issues.

I think a better solution to this would be to actually teach people how to DPS ingame instead of having everyone rely on youtube videos

I think that your assumption that the fake tanks are uber DPS is the wrong one, especially considering you assert that the average DPS can't do more than 20K in the preceding statement. The solution is to teach people how to DPS rather than expect people not to do something that is obviously subverting the system? You forget that many of these people don't even necessarily care about doing more than 20k DPS, or have any interest in listening to some stranger's advice on the DPS role. The last time I suggested that I could help someone with their build, their response was '[snip] you, this is MY build.'. What I and many other people advocate for is players honoring the roles they sign up for, which is totally reasonable. What you are advocating for is a solution for casual DPS under the false assumption that the only reason they aren't doing more damage is that ZOS hasn't taught them how. Don't worry, the people that want to do good DPS are going to find a way to do it. Casuals make up like 70% of the playerbase.

Your argument is based on "If you sign up as a tank, you need to play the tank role or you're disrespecting your teammates"

My argument is, "If you sign up as a DPS, you need to be able to do enough DPS to get through the content in a reasonable amount of time, or you're disrespecting your teammates"

Do you know why it's so hard to get proper tanks to queue in this game? Because those that actually queue as tanks get stuck with people who can't burn down the boss and give up tanking in frustration. I will never tank a PUG group again for that reason.

For the bolded: I'm sorry, but are you saying that people are doing bad DPS because they want to? And that it would be a bad thing for ZOS to teach people to improve the way they play? Because that's not a great argument when you want to add a system to report people.

I fully respect your right to play a DPS the way you want to, even if it suboptimal. Play the way you want is the motto of the game after all.

But I'll also ask you to respect other players when they want to get the content done faster (or at the very least in a reasonable amount of time)

[edited to remove quote]

wolfie1.0.

Last time I got a fake tank that could neither tank nor dps I just didn't heal them and let them either die or rage quit.

If your going to play like you can fulfill all roles and solo a dungeon then you should be able to back it up.

As for adressing the issue. The only thing that makes sense to me would require a fundamental change to the core mechanics to the game. Which is how ff14 handles tanks. That won't happen.

So that leaves us with a better activity finder... probably won't happen

The last option is to either deal with it, group with a tank you like, or just roll a tank yourself. If everyone rolls a tank then we just have bad tanks.

Sluggy

Bat wrote: »

Something like a "bad sport" system should be simple enough to implement. You queue as a tank but have absolutely no way to taunt enemies (no skill points put on inner fire or destructive touch)? Bad sport. Get 10 Bad sport queues through activity finder without being full premade team and you will forever be placed in queues with other bad sports.

Problem solved!

You haven't spent much time on the internet have you? Allow me to give you one badsport point now for good measure. Nine more to go before you end up in the queue with.... everyone else in the game!

Lazuli

Yea if you're gonna fake at least slot an ability or have great dps

Wolfpaw

The only solution is a ESO version of GW2 group tool, best I have ever used.

renne

You shouldn't pug without a self heal.

DagenHawk

The only time I ever hear about this is on the forums honestly....

I have seen just about every crazy combo you can imagine queue and no one ever screams "fake "anything.

ESO just isn't hyper competitive and few folks actually care about the trinity anymore

LordRukia

In pugs, you should always be prepared to carry the team. Its ok to go slightly off meta and run a couple different abilities to adapt to the clown fiesta so you can heal yourself or the group & have some defense. My mentality in pugs is I am basically playing solo. The only time I can't do that is certain DLC dungeons. A rare occurrence, just leave the dungeon at that point since even if you can solo its gonna take forever. Only build pure roles when in a premade otherwise go a more hybrid route. There are instances where mechanics will 1shot/permastun you if group doesn't save you and can't carry the fight, but its few and far between. I haven't had more than a few issues that stopped me from doing my daily normal in likely hundreds of dungeons. I don't see this as an issue personally, because enforcing roles I suspect will be some convoluted annoying system that restricts what we can use and that goes opposite to what ES is about.

Merforum

Bat wrote: »

Something like a "bad sport" system should be simple enough to implement. You queue as a tank but have absolutely no way to taunt enemies (no skill points put on inner fire or destructive touch)? Bad sport. Get 10 Bad sport queues through activity finder without being full premade team and you will forever be placed in queues with other bad sports.

Problem solved!

While I do like that idea it can be abused by people who just want to get others kicked into the bad sport queue. There are a couple ways to fix it, one is to reduce transmute rewards for normal random to 2. And increase BGs random daily rewqard to the 10 transmutes.

And the second even better or complimentary idea is to allow player to BLOCK others, so anyone who you block will never be grouped up with you again in DF or BGs. PROBLEM SOLVED. Doesn't remove the fakes but puts the control of the game in the hands of each player to weed out other players you don't want to associate with.

BTW editing a simple loot table or a block filter seems like it is easier than any NEW system ZOS would create.

merpins

Look, wait in line like everyone else. There are bad dps in the game that fake healer and tank, and there are top end dps in the game that fake healer and tank, and then some of both dont.

Here's a thought: for everyone that is ok with fake healers and tanks, ZoS could put a checkmark button in the party finder that allows you to queue as a fake tank or healer, and only be picked up for parties that have that checked. If you think the majority of people dont mind a fake tank or healer, then this would speed up queue times for everyone, and everyone that doesn't want that can continue with their lives. Of course they'd need to have moderation in terms of cracking down on people that fake tank the old way if they introduced this, allowing for people to get reported and temporarily banned for fake tanking without using the new system. But I mean I think this would be the only way that would have any impact on it.

Amottica

There is little that can be done, realistically.

Merforum

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Look, wait in line like everyone else. There are bad dps in the game that fake healer and tank, and there are top end dps in the game that fake healer and tank, and then some of both dont.

Here's a thought: for everyone that is ok with fake healers and tanks, ZoS could put a checkmark button in the party finder that allows you to queue as a fake tank or healer, and only be picked up for parties that have that checked. If you think the majority of people dont mind a fake tank or healer, then this would speed up queue times for everyone, and everyone that doesn't want that can continue with their lives. Of course they'd need to have moderation in terms of cracking down on people that fake tank the old way if they introduced this, allowing for people to get reported and temporarily banned for fake tanking without using the new system. But I mean I think this would be the only way that would have any impact on it.

Oh yeah I like that idea it is similar to my idea to fix BGs by allowing you to put checkboxes for each mode and only get put into the mode that you have a check for. I think it could work for DF too, although a griefer can still fake by not putting a check in the 'speedrun' box. So I think allowing everyone to block would be ultimate.

Actually just like how they have a tank/healer/DD ICON to highlight, they should add one more called SPEEDRUN, if you select that you will ONLY be grouped with others that selected that, and ANYTHING GOES, you don't care what role it is.

newtinmpls

DPS has a long wait.

If you queue for DPS you will have a long wait for a random.

For me, I address this by having a second setup for all of my characters.

All my magicka characters have healing setups, and I mean full setups - skills, gear and so on.

All my stamina characters have tanking setups, again skills, pulls, taunts, gear and the whole thing.

Works for me.

Iselin

adamsmith42 wrote: »

I don't mind when a DPS who can solo the place runs as tank/heals (especially since those players usually at least slot a taunt or heal in case things go badly), but I would GLADLY give up those runs to be free of all the weak DW/bow nightblades who ruin the experience for everyone else because they can't be bothered to wait a few minutes in the queue.

That best case scenario, when a good player does it, is not something anyone minds. Unfortunately that is relatively rare. Those who do it most often are the bad players who would also had stuck out like sore thumbs as bad had they queued as DPS.