Drachenfier wrote: »

Larger markets create healthier economies. This is a basic economic model that's been in play in the real world for centuries, and in various MMO's now for 15 + years. ESO's economy is in a shambles. It's broken to the point of being almost completely non existent.

In my opinion I don't think there is an economy to speak of in the traditional MMO sense. Currently the game provides the gold and the item drops to all players like in all other games but I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of players are simply vendor selling their stuff.

Although I always wanted an AH I was still open minded to this Guild Store idea... until I used it. Needless to say the largest amount of my items go to the vendor and some are sold through chat. I'm BLEEDING gold with this method and I know it but the hassle is not worth it. Guild.... Stores..... Suck

I feel like I'm grocery shopping at a bunch of mini-marts instead of just pulling into the super market and getting all my items.

Drachenfier wrote: »

Real life does not consist of small localized markets. This entire planet thrives on a global market, hence why government polices in Washington cause fluctuation in the stock market in Japan. People in Dominica complain because the United States sells bananas cheaper than they do, thus damaging their export business. This is a global market.

When supply exceeds demand, the prices fall. When it does not, the prices rise. It is virtually impossible for a select few to completely control the market unless they're dealing in ultra rare commodities, especially when it comes to MMO economies.

Can't tell if purposefully trolling, or dense.

There are no words I can use to make you understand. The market in your town/suburb is different from the market in your metro area is different from the market in your state is different from the market in your geographic location and on and on and on.They are connected, yet independent.

The global market you speak of includes everything and can be accessed by no one. Ebay, Amazon, etc. are large markets, but they are not global markets. When you go to your local grocery store, or farmer's market, or even fast food restaurants you are accessing a local market. The price of beef is cheaper in say, Kansas than Virginia, but the price of seafood (and quality!) is better in Virginia than Kansas.

Even "Global" markets such as oil necessarily set price based on the local market. Why do you think your local price of gas is, in all likelihood, different from mine?

RomedyMC wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

Real life does not consist of small localized markets. This entire planet thrives on a global market, hence why government polices in Washington cause fluctuation in the stock market in Japan. People in Dominica complain because the United States sells bananas cheaper than they do, thus damaging their export business. This is a global market.

When supply exceeds demand, the prices fall. When it does not, the prices rise. It is virtually impossible for a select few to completely control the market unless they're dealing in ultra rare commodities, especially when it comes to MMO economies.

Can't tell if purposefully trolling, or dense.

There are no words I can use to make you understand. The market in your town/suburb is different from the market in your metro area is different from the market in your state is different from the market in your geographic location and on and on and on.They are connected, yet independent.

The global market you speak of includes everything and can be accessed by no one. Ebay, Amazon, etc. are large markets, but they are not global markets. When you go to your local grocery store, or farmer's market, or even fast food restaurants you are accessing a local market. The price of beef is cheaper in say, Kansas than Virginia, but the price of seafood (and quality!) is better in Virginia than Kansas.

Even "Global" markets such as oil necessarily set price based on the local market. Why do you think your local price of gas is, in all likelihood, different from mine?

They are anything but independent, for exactly the reason you gave...in Texas gas is cheaper than in California due to state and regional fees, but the base price is still regulated by the global oil market. As far as local markets, yes, they are "local" in the fact that they're near you, but they are part of the larger market, in that they have to have competitive prices with the other retailers, information which is all readily available to everyone, quite unlike the situation we have here in ESO. More people shop at Wal Mart than Target because Wal Mart generally sells things cheaper. Neither Wal Mart nor Target exist in a vacuum. In MMO's its far more simplified and easier to regulate prices when you depend on a global market.

RomedyMC wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

Real life does not consist of small localized markets. This entire planet thrives on a global market, hence why government polices in Washington cause fluctuation in the stock market in Japan. People in Dominica complain because the United States sells bananas cheaper than they do, thus damaging their export business. This is a global market.

When supply exceeds demand, the prices fall. When it does not, the prices rise. It is virtually impossible for a select few to completely control the market unless they're dealing in ultra rare commodities, especially when it comes to MMO economies.

Can't tell if purposefully trolling, or dense.

There are no words I can use to make you understand. The market in your town/suburb is different from the market in your metro area is different from the market in your state is different from the market in your geographic location and on and on and on.They are connected, yet independent.

The global market you speak of includes everything and can be accessed by no one. Ebay, Amazon, etc. are large markets, but they are not global markets. When you go to your local grocery store, or farmer's market, or even fast food restaurants you are accessing a local market. The price of beef is cheaper in say, Kansas than Virginia, but the price of seafood (and quality!) is better in Virginia than Kansas.

Even "Global" markets such as oil necessarily set price based on the local market. Why do you think your local price of gas is, in all likelihood, different from mine?

Daverios wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

Larger markets create healthier economies. This is a basic economic model that's been in play in the real world for centuries, and in various MMO's now for 15 + years. ESO's economy is in a shambles. It's broken to the point of being almost completely non existent.

You have a global market already. It simply is not instant as it should be. Do the legwork.

Lots of games already have an AH. This game does not need it. Its the only thing that softened the dupe impact on economy. That alone should be reaso n enough.

We do not. We have small, localized markets that are completely independent of one another. That does not a good economy make. Doesn't take an economist to recognize this. What it does is allow certain people to continue to artificially inflate prices because of a lack of supply, due to the independent nature of these tiny markets.

I do not know how to respond to this or where to start.

Seriously you make it sound like the entire real world is run by ebay. I assure you it is not. It is infact as you say small localized markets. If you cross the borders of those markets you psy taxes duties and well shipping and storage costs too. Lets also not forget the wages of everyone involved.

It does not take an economist to realize this.

You are so very very very wrong if you think an AH does not lead to artificial inflation and control of the market by a select few. You are talking to one that did this in WOW. The way it is now NO ONE can control the market. Your basic thought process is flawed. Please reevaluate it.

I played World of Warcraft for several years. I never saw a select few take over the auction house and cause inflation. So if it was as unavoidable as you make out, I wonder why I never saw this.

And just because you buy something at so and so price then resell it at a higher price that is not causing inflation. That's called profiting from a calculated risk.

So there is really nothing wrong with what you describe. Buying low and selling high is a pretty basic tenant if you want to make money.

The only time true market manipulation is possible in respects to an auction house is if a group of people are able to seize control of how an item is obtained. Then they can raise prices as high as they wish and people must pay it. And that could be true of a Guild Store as well.

But that's a scenario I don't see happening on Elder Scrolls, since there are so many different ways to obtain the items in demand.

RomedyMC wrote: »

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. You won't convince me, and I won't convince either of you. I will say a huge THANK YOU for presenting thoughtful and constructive arguments instead of the typical internet trolling rife with personal attacks.

To make one last attempt, I'll go ahead and assume that you are correct and we are in a truly global market. The U.S. is the prime example of why a completely global, free market economy is a horrible idea. Look at any number of reports of the growing income and wealth inequalities. The implementation of a global AH only serves to make the rich richer and the poor (crafters) poorer. It caters to the hardcore gaming elite. It caters to the gold buyers. It crushes the casual ESO fan.

And all at the cost of convenience. I'm old, which is perhaps why I've taken the stance that I have.

I should probably just avoid this, because it could erupt into a political discussion.

But to keep it brief, the reason for the wealth inequalities in America is due to corporate entities taking advantage of lower standards in other countries to profit off shore.

This wouldn't be possible in Elder Scrolls. So I don't think we have to worry about that problem

RomedyMC wrote: »

To make one last attempt, I'll go ahead and assume that you are correct and we are in a truly global market. The U.S. is the prime example of why a completely global, free market economy is a horrible idea. Look at any number of reports of the growing income and wealth inequalities. The implementation of a global AH only serves to make the rich richer and the poor (crafters) poorer. It caters to the hardcore gaming elite. It caters to the gold buyers. It crushes the casual ESO fan.

This is actually not a very accurate comparison. The income/wealth equality gap isn't a direct result of a global economy. Sure, it contributes to the problem, but there are a whole lot of other factors causing it to happen.

The only reason a global AH would make the rich richer would be because of lazy people with too much gold willing to pay more than an item is worth. In ESO, everyone can go out and harvest/farm for whatever they want or need without ever interacting with an AH or guild store. If people decide to overpay for items, that's their choice, it's not being forced upon them. It's not exactly possible for consumers in the US to just go out and harvest or farm for say gasoline, or a new video card, or clothing.

An AH or guild store is just a vehicle of convenience, not of necessity. It actually benefits the casual player, as common goods are available for purchase at reasonable prices to save them the time and effort of finding it on their own. Yes, the most rare and sought after items will command the highest prices, but the same is true in real life as well. Otherwise, we wouldn't have varying prices of things like vehicles. The choice few are able to afford a Rolls Royce or a Maserati. The bulk of the population is driving around in a Hyundai or a Ford or some other more reasonably priced vehicle.

I have lost count of the posts I have made begging for an auction house/broker system.

People keep saying that a server wide auction house "ruins a game economy" without EVER explaining how that occurs. I have played EQ2 for 8 years and I can tell you from EXTENSIVE experience that it works marvelously well. It is one of the best things about the game, which is going on 11 years old and has to be one of the most successful MMOs ever.

The fact is that allowing players to post whatever they want for sale in a searchable database with filters so you can actually find what you want by price, item, level and type allows you to get the best price for whatever you are buying or selling. It is a self-regulating, supply/demand system that gets the best deal for ever you want.

By contrast the guild stores are limited, difficult to search and inflexible. Selling and buying through them is much like making a trip from Davon's Watch to Riften by harnessing six Imperial horses together and whipping them in six different directions. Good luck! So yes, I am sacrificing to Azura daily in hopes for an auction house.

Daverios wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

Larger markets create healthier economies. This is a basic economic model that's been in play in the real world for centuries, and in various MMO's now for 15 + years. ESO's economy is in a shambles. It's broken to the point of being almost completely non existent.

You have a global market already. It simply is not instant as it should be. Do the legwork.

Lots of games already have an AH. This game does not need it. Its the only thing that softened the dupe impact on economy. That alone should be reaso n enough.

So you actually, ACTUALLY want to argue that hundreds of small, fragmented markets, with barriers to entry and huge inconveniences in interface usage, are some kind of global market? Are you nuts? This game does need one, for the same reason virtually every AAA mmo since WoW, has had one. They are great gold sinks, and they allow players to buy and sell without a lot of WASTED TIME or ANNOYANCE.

RomedyMC wrote: »

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. You won't convince me, and I won't convince either of you. I will say a huge THANK YOU for presenting thoughtful and constructive arguments instead of the typical internet trolling rife with personal attacks.

To make one last attempt, I'll go ahead and assume that you are correct and we are in a truly global market. The U.S. is the prime example of why a completely global, free market economy is a horrible idea. Look at any number of reports of the growing income and wealth inequalities. The implementation of a global AH only serves to make the rich richer and the poor (crafters) poorer. It caters to the hardcore gaming elite. It caters to the gold buyers. It crushes the casual ESO fan.

And all at the cost of convenience. I'm old, which is perhaps why I've taken the stance that I have.

I think you are confusing things greatly...somehow, because large popular games have had auction houses in the past, and they also have had gold sellers, as just about every MMO does, somehow you are equating the two. This game has no shortage of gold sellers or spammers, and yet it has no AH. It also has no economy to speak off. This game's economy, in relation to other AAA MMOs, is like a tiny third world country, that stifles economic activity, instead of promoting it. Economic activity, like AH transactions, is good. Here is why:

AHs don't create gold or add gold to the system. They do no create inflation. They allow buyers and sellers to easily transact, and if they are feature rich, they provide historical data on pricing, etc. Ideally, crafters should be making items to sell, not making daggers for a partner to decon. But that is another issue, albeit related, since again THIS GAME STIFLES economic activity. Crafting can be tedious or a hassle at times, especially with this games inventory tetris...so the last thing you want to add on TOP of that is the frustration of unnecessary difficulty in selling your items or in buying mats you might need.

In fact, you can easily argue that as a gold sink, since every transaction is taxed, removing gold from the system, AHs do a better job at fighting inflation than almost anything else...and the more transactions they facilitate, the MORE GOLD they remove. It is hilarious to see the misinformed somehow equate AHs with inflation.

BOTTOM LINE...no series of small markets will EVER be as efficient or convenient in terms of economics or player use, as a few or one large market. That is simply not contestable. Smaller markets are INHERENTLY less efficient. It is an inescapable truth. Then add on the hassle of having to search up to 5 different markets with *** poor tools and interface, and you have the royal cluster we have now.

There are options to an AH, however. If we ever get guild cities, or player housing with vendors, it can work, as long as you can SEARCH EVERYTHING from one interface.

I've said it before, I'll say it again....There is one reason, and only one reason, we do not have an AH in this game. They could not pull it off with the megaservers. Then they pass it off as a design decision, which is laughable. You don't provide customers with an inferior product, and then try to convince them those features you didn't deliver on, that your competitors have, just aren't important. This doesn't work after your customers have used those features already in other products and saw them work, and work better than what you are offering.

I don't see the big problem with the AH that everyone is complaining about. Regardless I don't think the game needs an AH but if the devs decide to put it doesn't matter much to me.

lichmeister wrote: »

100% yes.
selling to guildmates goes against my nature: i have always crafted for my guild for free (ill happily take donations, though!)
the economy is really all over the place because the players cant at a glance figure out what a fair value is.

LadyInTheWater wrote: »

We HAVE an auction house.

Go to the bank, click on the banker, go to [Guild Store]. You have up to 5 different ones to choose from.

that is not an auction hall, 'tis a guild store! ...and it reflects a tiny portion of the stuff players would like to sell.
currently zone chats in EVERY zone are flooded with people trying to sell stuff. why? because the guild stores are simply not working well enough!

I agree...I have stuff that I want to sell but honestly I haven't the slightest idea what to sell it for. I know how people pull their scams in the zone chat and tell you something isn't worth what you think it is and then turn around and try to buy the said item off of you because they had convinced you to sell it cheaper then it really goes for.

An Auction House is needed...not to mention any other specific MMO's but WoW's Auction House system was spot on IMO. Sure some things got priced high at first but it all evens out eventually. If people were able to sell things like this in a Global Auction house then it would make things easier.

We can still keep the Guild Store if guild's want to give guild members an alternative and maybe sell things cheaper if needed and use that gold towards materials for the rest of the guild to use...or something along those lines. But guild stores right now are worthless...nothing like your own guild mates screwing you over by overpricing an item to sell in the GUILD store...

Dyvim wrote: »

I've said it before, I'll say it again....There is one reason, and only one reason, we do not have an AH in this game. They could not pull it off with the megaservers. Then they pass it off as a design decision, which is laughable. You don't provide customers with an inferior product, and then try to convince them those features you didn't deliver on, that your competitors have, just aren't important. This doesn't work after your customers have used those features already in other products and saw them work, and work better than what you are offering.

This is probably the most cogent post on the AH issue I have seen to date. For the longevity of the game, I think ZOS will have no choice but to implement a global AH, sooner as opposed to later. Too many players want one and the issue is not going to go away. It can be done on a megaserver successfully as other MMOs have proven (GW2).

Dyvim wrote: »

AHs don't create gold or add gold to the system. They do no create inflation. They allow buyers and sellers to easily transact, and if they are feature rich, they provide historical data on pricing, etc. Ideally, crafters should be making items to sell, not making daggers for a partner to decon. But that is another issue, albeit related, since again THIS GAME STIFLES economic activity. Crafting can be tedious or a hassle at times, especially with this games inventory tetris...so the last thing you want to add on TOP of that is the frustration of unnecessary difficulty in selling your items or in buying mats you might need.

In fact, you can easily argue that as a gold sink, since every transaction is taxed, removing gold from the system, AHs do a better job at fighting inflation than almost anything else...and the more transactions they facilitate, the MORE GOLD they remove. It is hilarious to see the misinformed somehow equate AHs with inflation.

Uh, he didn't mention anything about inflation in that post. He did mention inflation in a previous post, but explicitly stated that it is caused by increases in player population, not by auction houses.

You're claiming people are misinformed about how economies function yet you can't even pay enough attention to be informed about what the person you're speaking to is actually saying. It's easy to win an argument through fallacies, yours being one.

More on topic, you're equating efficiency with quality. As an example of how this is not always true: Just because I, living in the US, can buy something directly from some manufacturer in some developing country on the other side of the world for way cheaper than I could from the mom-and-pop store down the street, without ever leaving my house, doesn't mean that this arrangement is beneficial to my community and, ultimately, me. It may be, it may not be, but this is most definitely not determined purely by which arrangement is more efficient.

Brennan wrote: »

Dyvim wrote: »

because they have used it and appreciated it in other MMOs,

Dyvim wrote:

...features that players expect from a AAA MMO, that other competing products have...

This is a prime example of what is not a compelling argument.

Every position you seem to take @Dyvim revolves around this same point. Whether it's the inventory or the auction house.

This game must have X because this game has X.

Actually you don't understand the position he, and a lot of other people are making. We don't want an AH because some other game has it, we want an AH because we've seen in other games how much BETTER it works. EQ pre-AH you couldn't find, or sell, anything without wasting hours of gametime standing around EC.

EQ also had 10-20 hour corpse recoveries you had to do nekid because all your gear was on your corpse behind a batch of mobs that had already wiped your fully gear raid guild.... guess what, no ones calling for that because it flat out sucked ***.

The argument is: global AH's work better than a bunch of very small, inefficient, ineffective, micro-AH's with not enough buyers, sellers, and outlandish costs.

It took EQ three+ years to pull their head out and finally do something to create an AH; we've seen in less than a month that ESO has tried to reinvent a game economy by going backwards...and it's a failure. Not only does it not provide a useful tool, it also degrades another useful tool (guilds) into being cheap, throw away ideas.