SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.
All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.
Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.
But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.
A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.
What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.
DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.
All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.
Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.
But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.
A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.
What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.
You are getting predatory confused with pay to win. ESO has never been P2W in my opinion.
SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.
All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.
Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.
But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.
A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.
What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.
You are getting predatory confused with pay to win. ESO has never been P2W in my opinion.
It is an incentive to offer nice perks and conveniences with a subscription, not predatory. It would be predatory to offer play to win items, which they don't.
DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.
All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.
Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.
But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.
A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.
What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.
You are getting predatory confused with pay to win. ESO has never been P2W in my opinion.
It is an incentive to offer nice perks and conveniences with a subscription, not predatory. It would be predatory to offer play to win items, which they don't.
Yeah I disagree 100%. Do you find loot boxes predatory?
As far as the craft bag being the main motivators for ESO+ subscriptions.... I mean what should be the main motivation? They absolutely need subscribers and if it's not the craft bag it's going to be something even more essential.
Loot boxes with enticing cosmetic rewards exist for a reason, and that's to keep the company in business and making content for a game you say you otherwise enjoy. If they didn't have interesting and cool things in them, they wouldn't sell them, and you would either HAVE to pay a monthly sub, or the game would just cease to exist. I don't even know how to address your comment about 'limited time' things. Sounds like a personal issue. I like knowing what's coming and going. Also if everyone were forced to sub, same difference the game would probably go away.
You may feel the content has gotten 'smaller' but just because an overworld land mass isn't as big doesn't mean there is less content. I feel time wise it's all been equitable.
I do feel your point about the story being incomplete unless you buy everything. But that's no different than any other form of media. I can't just buy one book in a series and expect to know the whole story.
I can only assume (and this is in no way an insult) that people who have gripes about loot crates and the store model simply don't know how hard it is for a game company to even exist these days. There is a reason there are not many new MMO's out there and the ones that do exist are kinda janky with their pricing models. To keep a staff employed making new content and keeping a game running has a cost
I feel like they are doing a pretty good job of balancing keeping people employed and content coming with an in-game store that has enticing options for people who want them. You've gotten 1,500 hours of entertainment from the game, apparently. Even if you paid full price for the base games and expansions that's less than 20 cents an hour for entertainment.
You're entitled to your opinions but try to consider to keep a team employed full time to run this game has a cost, and financing a game studio in 2022 is not easy since they don't have a great track record. Someone who wants to invest their money has much better options than taking a gamble so businesses have had to adopt a way to pay for themselves along the way rather than the old school method of funding a product, making it, and being done.
DarkWombat wrote: »Loot boxes with enticing cosmetic rewards exist for a reason, and that's to keep the company in business and making content for a game you say you otherwise enjoy. If they didn't have interesting and cool things in them, they wouldn't sell them, and you would either HAVE to pay a monthly sub, or the game would just cease to exist. I don't even know how to address your comment about 'limited time' things. Sounds like a personal issue. I like knowing what's coming and going. Also if everyone were forced to sub, same difference the game would probably go away.
You may feel the content has gotten 'smaller' but just because an overworld land mass isn't as big doesn't mean there is less content. I feel time wise it's all been equitable.
I do feel your point about the story being incomplete unless you buy everything. But that's no different than any other form of media. I can't just buy one book in a series and expect to know the whole story.
I can only assume (and this is in no way an insult) that people who have gripes about loot crates and the store model simply don't know how hard it is for a game company to even exist these days. There is a reason there are not many new MMO's out there and the ones that do exist are kinda janky with their pricing models. To keep a staff employed making new content and keeping a game running has a cost
I feel like they are doing a pretty good job of balancing keeping people employed and content coming with an in-game store that has enticing options for people who want them. You've gotten 1,500 hours of entertainment from the game, apparently. Even if you paid full price for the base games and expansions that's less than 20 cents an hour for entertainment.
You're entitled to your opinions but try to consider to keep a team employed full time to run this game has a cost, and financing a game studio in 2022 is not easy since they don't have a great track record. Someone who wants to invest their money has much better options than taking a gamble so businesses have had to adopt a way to pay for themselves along the way rather than the old school method of funding a product, making it, and being done.
I fully understand and expected a reply (I'm surprised it took this long) about how "they have to make money somehow" but there are better ways to do it without making the customer feel bad. Six of my friends don't like the model and neither do I or my son. I am sure there are many others who don't either.
Lord of the Rings Online has a very similar model and at the risk of someone replying "go play that, then" I will offer their sub as a good example of a Freemium model done right. All mounts and cosmetics are always available all the time. There is no artificial "3 days left!" They do have sales with time left but they NEVER pull items form the store completely nor have loot boxes. Loot boxes have been proven as a type of gambling.
Continuing with LOTRO, a lot of content can be purchased or played with a VIP sub just like ESO. Even their inventory space is restricted but once you sub for just one month, you unlock the larger inventory which feels nice. You also gets points every month subbed as a VIP just like ESO.
The only thing I can think of is that ESO just requires a lot more people to run so they need to "entice" users anyway they can even if it is using these shady artificial deadline tricks on electronic items..
DarkWombat wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »If she agreed it was predatory and bad but still wanted it the same, you'd have a point. But she does not agree with us.
Unless your copium levels are off the charts I doubt many would spend money on something and agree it is predatory at the same time.
DarkWombat wrote: »I have 1,500 plus hours into this game. I also sometimes play World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2 and Lord of the Rings Online.
Whats funny is I actually like the combat, I like the graphics and UI with addons. I love the music and love being in Tamriel.
Its just when I log in, I get mad. I have to physically try to play the game and not think about it.
How do I get past this or is there even a way?
SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.
All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.
Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.
But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.
A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.
What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.
You are getting predatory confused with pay to win. ESO has never been P2W in my opinion.
It is an incentive to offer nice perks and conveniences with a subscription, not predatory. It would be predatory to offer play to win items, which they don't.
Yeah I disagree 100%. Do you find loot boxes predatory?
No I don't. They only offer cosmetics and other non essential items, and players need to use their self control when making purchases.
DarkWombat wrote: »I fully understand and expected a reply (I'm surprised it took this long) about how "they have to make money somehow" but there are better ways to do it without making the customer feel bad. Six of my friends don't like the model and neither do I or my son. I am sure there are many others who don't either.
I guess I just don't grasp the concept of "making the customer feel bad".
What do you feel bad about. . ?
Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.
All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.
Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.
But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.
A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.
What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.
You are getting predatory confused with pay to win. ESO has never been P2W in my opinion.
It is an incentive to offer nice perks and conveniences with a subscription, not predatory. It would be predatory to offer play to win items, which they don't.
Yeah I disagree 100%. Do you find loot boxes predatory?
No I don't. They only offer cosmetics and other non essential items, and players need to use their self control when making purchases.
I am with OP on this one. I dont think predatory and pay 2 win have to go hand and hand. Loot boxes, regardless of what is in them, are predatory by their very nature. We can certainly quibble about how much protection people really need from their own self control issues, but gambling addictions are very really. Loot boxes are essentially online slot machines with pixelated rewards that cost real money. Considering entire countries have banned them, I dont think its out of line to call them predatory.
spartaxoxo wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »Loot boxes with enticing cosmetic rewards exist for a reason, and that's to keep the company in business and making content for a game you say you otherwise enjoy. If they didn't have interesting and cool things in them, they wouldn't sell them, and you would either HAVE to pay a monthly sub, or the game would just cease to exist. I don't even know how to address your comment about 'limited time' things. Sounds like a personal issue. I like knowing what's coming and going. Also if everyone were forced to sub, same difference the game would probably go away.
You may feel the content has gotten 'smaller' but just because an overworld land mass isn't as big doesn't mean there is less content. I feel time wise it's all been equitable.
I do feel your point about the story being incomplete unless you buy everything. But that's no different than any other form of media. I can't just buy one book in a series and expect to know the whole story.
I can only assume (and this is in no way an insult) that people who have gripes about loot crates and the store model simply don't know how hard it is for a game company to even exist these days. There is a reason there are not many new MMO's out there and the ones that do exist are kinda janky with their pricing models. To keep a staff employed making new content and keeping a game running has a cost
I feel like they are doing a pretty good job of balancing keeping people employed and content coming with an in-game store that has enticing options for people who want them. You've gotten 1,500 hours of entertainment from the game, apparently. Even if you paid full price for the base games and expansions that's less than 20 cents an hour for entertainment.
You're entitled to your opinions but try to consider to keep a team employed full time to run this game has a cost, and financing a game studio in 2022 is not easy since they don't have a great track record. Someone who wants to invest their money has much better options than taking a gamble so businesses have had to adopt a way to pay for themselves along the way rather than the old school method of funding a product, making it, and being done.
I fully understand and expected a reply (I'm surprised it took this long) about how "they have to make money somehow" but there are better ways to do it without making the customer feel bad. Six of my friends don't like the model and neither do I or my son. I am sure there are many others who don't either.
Lord of the Rings Online has a very similar model and at the risk of someone replying "go play that, then" I will offer their sub as a good example of a Freemium model done right. All mounts and cosmetics are always available all the time. There is no artificial "3 days left!" They do have sales with time left but they NEVER pull items form the store completely nor have loot boxes. Loot boxes have been proven as a type of gambling.
Continuing with LOTRO, a lot of content can be purchased or played with a VIP sub just like ESO. Even their inventory space is restricted but once you sub for just one month, you unlock the larger inventory which feels nice. You also gets points every month subbed as a VIP just like ESO.
The only thing I can think of is that ESO just requires a lot more people to run so they need to "entice" users anyway they can even if it is using these shady artificial deadline tricks on electronic items..
Doesn't that game have entire content parts you can't access without a sub though?
DarkWombat wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »Loot boxes with enticing cosmetic rewards exist for a reason, and that's to keep the company in business and making content for a game you say you otherwise enjoy. If they didn't have interesting and cool things in them, they wouldn't sell them, and you would either HAVE to pay a monthly sub, or the game would just cease to exist. I don't even know how to address your comment about 'limited time' things. Sounds like a personal issue. I like knowing what's coming and going. Also if everyone were forced to sub, same difference the game would probably go away.
You may feel the content has gotten 'smaller' but just because an overworld land mass isn't as big doesn't mean there is less content. I feel time wise it's all been equitable.
I do feel your point about the story being incomplete unless you buy everything. But that's no different than any other form of media. I can't just buy one book in a series and expect to know the whole story.
I can only assume (and this is in no way an insult) that people who have gripes about loot crates and the store model simply don't know how hard it is for a game company to even exist these days. There is a reason there are not many new MMO's out there and the ones that do exist are kinda janky with their pricing models. To keep a staff employed making new content and keeping a game running has a cost
I feel like they are doing a pretty good job of balancing keeping people employed and content coming with an in-game store that has enticing options for people who want them. You've gotten 1,500 hours of entertainment from the game, apparently. Even if you paid full price for the base games and expansions that's less than 20 cents an hour for entertainment.
You're entitled to your opinions but try to consider to keep a team employed full time to run this game has a cost, and financing a game studio in 2022 is not easy since they don't have a great track record. Someone who wants to invest their money has much better options than taking a gamble so businesses have had to adopt a way to pay for themselves along the way rather than the old school method of funding a product, making it, and being done.
I fully understand and expected a reply (I'm surprised it took this long) about how "they have to make money somehow" but there are better ways to do it without making the customer feel bad. Six of my friends don't like the model and neither do I or my son. I am sure there are many others who don't either.
Lord of the Rings Online has a very similar model and at the risk of someone replying "go play that, then" I will offer their sub as a good example of a Freemium model done right. All mounts and cosmetics are always available all the time. There is no artificial "3 days left!" They do have sales with time left but they NEVER pull items form the store completely nor have loot boxes. Loot boxes have been proven as a type of gambling.
Continuing with LOTRO, a lot of content can be purchased or played with a VIP sub just like ESO. Even their inventory space is restricted but once you sub for just one month, you unlock the larger inventory which feels nice. You also gets points every month subbed as a VIP just like ESO.
The only thing I can think of is that ESO just requires a lot more people to run so they need to "entice" users anyway they can even if it is using these shady artificial deadline tricks on electronic items..
Doesn't that game have entire content parts you can't access without a sub though?
No you can buy the DLCs just like ESO for that.
I totally failed at copy and paste on my phone lol.
Comment still stands though - why does the crown store make you "feel bad"?
DarkWombat wrote: »Lord of the Rings Online has a very similar model . . .
Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I am with OP on this one. I dont think predatory and pay 2 win have to go hand and hand. Loot boxes, regardless of what is in them, are predatory by their very nature. We can certainly quibble about how much protection people really need from their own self control issues, but gambling addictions are very really. Loot boxes are essentially online slot machines with pixelated rewards that cost real money. Considering entire countries have banned them, I dont think its out of line to call them predatory.
spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »DarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.
All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.
Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.
But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.
A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.
What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.
You are getting predatory confused with pay to win. ESO has never been P2W in my opinion.
It is an incentive to offer nice perks and conveniences with a subscription, not predatory. It would be predatory to offer play to win items, which they don't.
Yeah I disagree 100%. Do you find loot boxes predatory?
No I don't. They only offer cosmetics and other non essential items, and players need to use their self control when making purchases.
I am with OP on this one. I dont think predatory and pay 2 win have to go hand and hand. Loot boxes, regardless of what is in them, are predatory by their very nature. We can certainly quibble about how much protection people really need from their own self control issues, but gambling addictions are very really. Loot boxes are essentially online slot machines with pixelated rewards that cost real money. Considering entire countries have banned them, I dont think its out of line to call them predatory.
Personally I feel they are inherently somewhat predatory since people can become addicted. But, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be sold. Gambling is fun and many people can handle it. Same deal with alcohol. So to me personally, I feel that ESO's lootboxes are no longer particularly predatory.
I used to find them an abusive example but then they made some key changes
1) they gave us the odds
2) they added the seals of Endeavor
3) they started recycling old crates more regularly into the rotation
On top of that, the game is already rated M.
By doing these things, I feel that they have put the protections in place needed to make them fair. The rest is on the buyer.
Because the system is no longer I need to spend hundreds of dollars gambling right now or I may never get this thing that I strongly desire. It's, I want to gamble so I don't have to wait forever to get it or because it's fun. To me, that's a big difference.
DarkWombat wrote: »
- I don't like all these mounts and cool items behind loot boxes.
SilverBride wrote: »
No I don't. They only offer cosmetics and other non essential items, and players need to use their self control when making purchases.
Its not your place to tell how someone else should feel in any situationDarkWombat wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »As a subscriber I would be resentful if they did sell the crafting bag to non subscribers.
Exactly and you should not feel that way. But because you would feel that way proves it is wrong. It should be a core part of the game.
DarkWombat wrote: »[*] I don't like it how damage done is based on total mana or stamina, a system so bad that no MMO in history has used it before and the only one who uses it is the one universe that actually had the most hybrids in its single player games, so this system actually hurts that!
As for getting past their business model its simple. Either pay them for optional things or don't and move on with your life having been blessed with not worrying about trivial things. Or write another thread where we all collectively pretend that adults have no agency or responsibility in spending their money on a 100% optional hobby such as a video game.