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How do I get past this business model?

  • DarkWombat
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

    All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

    Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

    But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.

    A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.

    What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.

    You are getting predatory confused with pay to win. ESO has never been P2W in my opinion.
  • SilverBride
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    DarkWombat wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

    All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

    Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

    But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.

    A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.

    What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.

    You are getting predatory confused with pay to win. ESO has never been P2W in my opinion.

    It is an incentive to offer nice perks and conveniences with a subscription, not predatory. It would be predatory to offer play to win items, which they don't.
    PCNA
  • DarkWombat
    DarkWombat
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    DarkWombat wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

    All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

    Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

    But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.

    A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.

    What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.

    You are getting predatory confused with pay to win. ESO has never been P2W in my opinion.

    It is an incentive to offer nice perks and conveniences with a subscription, not predatory. It would be predatory to offer play to win items, which they don't.

    Yeah I disagree 100%. Do you find loot boxes predatory?
  • SilverBride
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    DarkWombat wrote: »
    DarkWombat wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

    All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

    Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

    But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.

    A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.

    What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.

    You are getting predatory confused with pay to win. ESO has never been P2W in my opinion.

    It is an incentive to offer nice perks and conveniences with a subscription, not predatory. It would be predatory to offer play to win items, which they don't.

    Yeah I disagree 100%. Do you find loot boxes predatory?

    No I don't. They only offer cosmetics and other non essential items, and players need to use their self control when making purchases.
    PCNA
  • Krayl
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    Loot boxes with enticing cosmetic rewards exist for a reason, and that's to keep the company in business and making content for a game you say you otherwise enjoy. If they didn't have interesting and cool things in them, they wouldn't sell them, and you would either HAVE to pay a monthly sub, or the game would just cease to exist. I don't even know how to address your comment about 'limited time' things. Sounds like a personal issue. I like knowing what's coming and going. Also if everyone were forced to sub, same difference the game would probably go away.

    You may feel the content has gotten 'smaller' but just because an overworld land mass isn't as big doesn't mean there is less content. I feel time wise it's all been equitable.

    I do feel your point about the story being incomplete unless you buy everything. But that's no different than any other form of media. I can't just buy one book in a series and expect to know the whole story.

    I can only assume (and this is in no way an insult) that people who have gripes about loot crates and the store model simply don't know how hard it is for a game company to even exist these days. There is a reason there are not many new MMO's out there and the ones that do exist are kinda janky with their pricing models. To keep a staff employed making new content and keeping a game running has a cost

    I feel like they are doing a pretty good job of balancing keeping people employed and content coming with an in-game store that has enticing options for people who want them. You've gotten 1,500 hours of entertainment from the game, apparently. Even if you paid full price for the base games and expansions that's less than 20 cents an hour for entertainment.

    You're entitled to your opinions but try to consider to keep a team employed full time to run this game has a cost, and financing a game studio in 2022 is not easy since they don't have a great track record. Someone who wants to invest their money has much better options than taking a gamble so businesses have had to adopt a way to pay for themselves along the way rather than the old school method of funding a product, making it, and being done.


  • spartaxoxo
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    worrallj wrote: »
    As far as the craft bag being the main motivators for ESO+ subscriptions.... I mean what should be the main motivation? They absolutely need subscribers and if it's not the craft bag it's going to be something even more essential.

    I think the doubled bank and inventory space are a good example of non-predatory perks. They just make the existing features far better rather than adding new ones that feel necessary to many, many people. Yes I am aware you can do without it. I did without it until Greymoor for the most part. So a highly resting craft bag that felt small and made you want ESO+ would be less predatory than none at all, imo. Perhaps for example it wouldn't let you store any consumable ingredients, style material, or housing mats. It would just hold like 50 of each of the durable and equipment mats (enchanting, woodworking, blacksmithing, jewelry, and clothing). That would be enough mats for people who just want to hold onto the upgrades for their gear and maybe do some writs, but not enough to participate more heavily in the crafting features.

    Some other perks I'd like to see added

    I also think ESO+ could come with a free notable home, extra character slots, a special mount, early 1st week access to DLC (not chapters)...
    Edited by spartaxoxo on January 24, 2022 8:41PM
  • Tannus15
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    the game is really good.
    it's worth $15 a month.
  • DarkWombat
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    Krayl wrote: »
    Loot boxes with enticing cosmetic rewards exist for a reason, and that's to keep the company in business and making content for a game you say you otherwise enjoy. If they didn't have interesting and cool things in them, they wouldn't sell them, and you would either HAVE to pay a monthly sub, or the game would just cease to exist. I don't even know how to address your comment about 'limited time' things. Sounds like a personal issue. I like knowing what's coming and going. Also if everyone were forced to sub, same difference the game would probably go away.

    You may feel the content has gotten 'smaller' but just because an overworld land mass isn't as big doesn't mean there is less content. I feel time wise it's all been equitable.

    I do feel your point about the story being incomplete unless you buy everything. But that's no different than any other form of media. I can't just buy one book in a series and expect to know the whole story.

    I can only assume (and this is in no way an insult) that people who have gripes about loot crates and the store model simply don't know how hard it is for a game company to even exist these days. There is a reason there are not many new MMO's out there and the ones that do exist are kinda janky with their pricing models. To keep a staff employed making new content and keeping a game running has a cost

    I feel like they are doing a pretty good job of balancing keeping people employed and content coming with an in-game store that has enticing options for people who want them. You've gotten 1,500 hours of entertainment from the game, apparently. Even if you paid full price for the base games and expansions that's less than 20 cents an hour for entertainment.

    You're entitled to your opinions but try to consider to keep a team employed full time to run this game has a cost, and financing a game studio in 2022 is not easy since they don't have a great track record. Someone who wants to invest their money has much better options than taking a gamble so businesses have had to adopt a way to pay for themselves along the way rather than the old school method of funding a product, making it, and being done.


    I fully understand and expected a reply (I'm surprised it took this long) about how "they have to make money somehow" but there are better ways to do it without making the customer feel bad. Six of my friends don't like the model and neither do I or my son. I am sure there are many others who don't either.

    Lord of the Rings Online has a very similar model and at the risk of someone replying "go play that, then" I will offer their sub as a good example of a Freemium model done right. All mounts and cosmetics are always available all the time. There is no artificial "3 days left!" They do have sales with time left but they NEVER pull items form the store completely nor have loot boxes. Loot boxes have been proven as a type of gambling.

    Continuing with LOTRO, a lot of content can be purchased or played with a VIP sub just like ESO. Even their inventory space is restricted but once you sub for just one month, you unlock the larger inventory which feels nice. You also gets points every month subbed as a VIP just like ESO.

    The only thing I can think of is that ESO just requires a lot more people to run so they need to "entice" users anyway they can even if it is using these shady artificial deadline tricks on electronic items..
  • spartaxoxo
    spartaxoxo
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    Krayl wrote: »
    Loot boxes with enticing cosmetic rewards exist for a reason, and that's to keep the company in business and making content for a game you say you otherwise enjoy. If they didn't have interesting and cool things in them, they wouldn't sell them, and you would either HAVE to pay a monthly sub, or the game would just cease to exist. I don't even know how to address your comment about 'limited time' things. Sounds like a personal issue. I like knowing what's coming and going. Also if everyone were forced to sub, same difference the game would probably go away.

    You may feel the content has gotten 'smaller' but just because an overworld land mass isn't as big doesn't mean there is less content. I feel time wise it's all been equitable.

    I do feel your point about the story being incomplete unless you buy everything. But that's no different than any other form of media. I can't just buy one book in a series and expect to know the whole story.

    I can only assume (and this is in no way an insult) that people who have gripes about loot crates and the store model simply don't know how hard it is for a game company to even exist these days. There is a reason there are not many new MMO's out there and the ones that do exist are kinda janky with their pricing models. To keep a staff employed making new content and keeping a game running has a cost

    I feel like they are doing a pretty good job of balancing keeping people employed and content coming with an in-game store that has enticing options for people who want them. You've gotten 1,500 hours of entertainment from the game, apparently. Even if you paid full price for the base games and expansions that's less than 20 cents an hour for entertainment.

    You're entitled to your opinions but try to consider to keep a team employed full time to run this game has a cost, and financing a game studio in 2022 is not easy since they don't have a great track record. Someone who wants to invest their money has much better options than taking a gamble so businesses have had to adopt a way to pay for themselves along the way rather than the old school method of funding a product, making it, and being done.


    I fully understand and expected a reply (I'm surprised it took this long) about how "they have to make money somehow" but there are better ways to do it without making the customer feel bad. Six of my friends don't like the model and neither do I or my son. I am sure there are many others who don't either.

    Lord of the Rings Online has a very similar model and at the risk of someone replying "go play that, then" I will offer their sub as a good example of a Freemium model done right. All mounts and cosmetics are always available all the time. There is no artificial "3 days left!" They do have sales with time left but they NEVER pull items form the store completely nor have loot boxes. Loot boxes have been proven as a type of gambling.

    Continuing with LOTRO, a lot of content can be purchased or played with a VIP sub just like ESO. Even their inventory space is restricted but once you sub for just one month, you unlock the larger inventory which feels nice. You also gets points every month subbed as a VIP just like ESO.

    The only thing I can think of is that ESO just requires a lot more people to run so they need to "entice" users anyway they can even if it is using these shady artificial deadline tricks on electronic items..

    Doesn't that game have entire content parts you can't access without a sub though?
  • Kalik_Gold
    Kalik_Gold
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    I buy the Chapters in the summer only $50 approx.
    I buy everything else crowns for gold during the year and have a fake guild for my "craft bag"...
    Armory and sticker book helps, a lot. Decon and stick mats in guild, empty guild 2-3x a year when ESO+ is free.

    I don't pay for a subscription ... I pay for what is needed. If everyone paid less, they would respond.

    Edited by Kalik_Gold on January 24, 2022 8:54PM
    Main: (PvP & PvE)
    Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar, the Vestige

    PvP:
    Aurik Siet'ka a Redguard Necromancer
    Cacique the Sage of Ius a Redguard Warden
    Jux Blackheart a Redguard Nightblade
    Goliath of Hammerfell a Redguard Dragonknight
    Kaotik Von Dae'mon a Redguard* Sorcerer

    PvP: (Specialty)
    Tyrus Septim an Imperial Lycan Sorcerer
    Tsar af-Bomba a Redguard Vampiric Nightblade (Bomber)
    Movárth Piquine a Nord Vampiric Necromancer
    Uri Ice-Heart the Twin a Nord Vampiric Warden
    Voa a Priest of Sep a Redguard* Necromancer

    PvE:
    Cinan Tharn an Imperial Dragonknight (Tank)
    Bates Vesuius of Dawnstar an Imperial Dragonknight (Damage)
    Herzog Zwei the Genesis an Akavari* Templar (Healer)
    Tav'i at-Shinji a Redguard** Warden (One-Bar)
    Lucky Hunch the Gambler - a Redguard Nightblade (Thief)

    Leveling...
    Two-Big-Horns an Argonian Arcanist
    Styx of Akatosh a Goblin* Arcanist
    Zenovia at-Tura a Redguard** Sorcerer
    Yesi af-Kalik a Redguard Templar
    ======
    Passives of another race used. (RP)
    *Breton
    **Imperial




    __________________________Backstories:_________________________

    Ras Kalik the Vestige, a renown Redguard warrior; He has been blessed to save Tamriel from Molag Bal’s destructive Planemeld while reuniting the Five Companions. His further accomplishments after defeating Molag Bal, has been to stop the destruction of Morrowind, the Clockwork City, return order to the isle of Summerset and create a new king in Wrothgar and a queen in Elsywer. These events have made him a living legend and continue to lead him into new adventures throughout Tamriel, as well as into the hearts of many ladies including the Elf Queen, Aryenn. Over many years of adventurous travels, Ras Kalik had become a loner, until he re-visited his homeland of Alik'r.

    Alik'r and it's cities were overrun by the undead Ra-Netu and therefore he made an allegiance with Alik'r's own Ash'abah tribe. These Ash'abah with his help, cleansed the city of Sentinel in Alik'r desert and it's surrounding areas of the undead brought to life by the Withered Hand. After rescuing Sentinel from the undead zombies, King Fahara’jad’s personal bodyguard the Goliath of Hammerfell, who was given this name by Imperials in the region; was asked to assist the tribe after learning of the defeat of the Withered Hand to the Ash'abah. Kalik promised Goliath he would task him with fighting living enemies on the battlefield if he so desired. Goliath being a Yokudan warrior wields a massive sword in respect to the Ansei, a gift given by the Imperial, Cinan Tharn. Not many soldiers are able to wield double two handed weapons, but Goliath loves to get up and personal in a fight, so he also carries a giant maul, both weapons laced with magical flames.

    Jux Blackheart is a master thief that masquerades as a Bard at the Sisters of the Sands inn, with his younger sidekick Lucky Hunch for pilfering and gambling during this time. Jux was known to infiltrate any towns bank vault he came across and even delved into Ayelid ruins without detection. Kalik can vividly recall the night he met the famed thief. Jux found himself rummaging thru a slightly inebriated Kalik’s pocket for too long, on a full-mooned night and because of his greed and the glimmer of his golden armor in the moonlight. He lost his left pinky fingertip as a lesson! But in return, he gained a new friend, as it was his first time since a child being caught red-handed...

    Upon arrival back in the Alik'r after many moons of adventuring, Ras Kalik ventures to Bergama. Visiting The Winking Jackal, he runs into Jux Blackheart, who introduces him to the coin game Crowns vs Forebearers (Heads vs Tails) and Golden Dwemer (RBG).... Jux constantly takes gold from the unfortunate thru theft or gambling, his biggest gambling victim is actually his partner in crime known as Lucky Hunch the Gambler. Lucky doesn't mind losing any gold coins to Jux... as Jux saved him from Altmer slavers in Summerset, by stealing a key and sending him on a boat to the mainland years prior. Lucky spent years in slavery with Khajiits in Summerset and picked up the art of subterfuge, using illusion magic disguises and stealing there.

    Kaotik Von’Daemon an outcast, and a half-caste between a Breton mother and a Redguard father. Kaotik become a pariah due to his conjuration of Daedra pets. He was taught healing magic during his childhood years by his Breton mother. His father due to Redguard customs exiled him from the desert, sending him by wagon caravan to be a soldier in the war in Cyrodiil. He happened to meet Kalik while traveling from Alik'r, during this long caravan ride the caravan he was in was ambushed in Bangkorai by a group of bandits. Kalik by chance was also traveling thru this area on his Auridon Warhorse (which was bestowed to him by his friend, Darien Gautier). During this ambush, Kalik was able to rescue five hostages from the bandits. Kaotik was the first rescued, and Ras Kalik also recruited him to be in the Ash'abah tribe. These core Ash'abah tribesmen may never be seen together in travel as they partake in their own adventures but they always know what each other is doing; as they frequent a hideout in northern Bankorai. Their hideout an old Orc castle ruin, is kept watch by Nuzhimeh and she passes messages written between them, and frequently they also enjoy her company and her bed.

    The other men rescued were a Dunmer banker, an Imperial mercenary and two other soldiers, an Imperial and a Breton Knight, stating proudly he was an Akavir descendent. One of the Imperials, Cinan, claimed to be related to Abnur Tharn the Battlemage of the Imperial Elder Council (One of Ras Kalik's mentors in the Five Companions). Cinan Tharn was really Abnur's drunkard treasure hunting illegitimate son. He was caught smuggling artifacts out of the Ayleid ruins in Cyrodiil and the elder of the two Imperials was Tyrus Septim a retired Imperial navy battle-mage (now a Lycan mercenary living in the city of Rimmen) and guard to the Tharn family. As much as Abnur Tharn hated his half-sister Euraxia, he dislikes his bas†ard son Cinan more. Tyrus now a ruffian and privateer had been paid by Abnur Tharn to watch over Cinan as much as possible. Cinan Tharn a drunkard, loves to drink at least a quarter barrel of Nord mead before he raids various delves and dungeons for relics to sell on the black market. Cinan also plans to one day, run an illegal gambling ring... which he thinks will net him more gold for his wares.

    The Dunmer captive shackled to the Imperials looked familiar to Kalik from his time in Morrowind.... and he recognized him as Tythis Andromo a House Telvanni slave-owner and banker from Vvardenfell. During a rough interrogation to Tythis, Ras Kalik learnt why the bandits accosted him. The racist Dunmer was providing slaves as soldiers for the Three Banner War. The bandits were trying to negotiate a lucrative ransom for Andromo and the Imperials.... Kalik did not need any of this gold and he could never set Tythis free as he did with the two Imperial soldiers. His past involvement with slavery and war crimes, made Kalik's blood boil. He chose not to execute Tythis, as he figured the worse punishment for this former rich and opulent slave owner, is to now be an imprisoned servant for Ras Kalik and the tribe.

    Herzog Zwei the Genesis a reknown Imperial/Akavirri battle-mage. His roots going back to Akavir through his mother’s bloodline. (His mother is descended from the Akaviri, through Versidue-Shae, and his Imperial father met her in Hakoshae, while traveling) Herzog earned the nickname "the Genesis" from his father as a child, as he was his mother's first born child, and last, as she tragically died in child-birth.

    Herzog was seeking to purchase an artifact from Cinan Tharn, before their capture and was meeting Tyrus while in Rimmen, who introduced him to Cinan. This artifact being the Ayelid artifact; the sword Sinweaver. After their rescue and the exchange of gold to Cinan for the sword he decided to slip away before Ras Kalik could question who he was, and why the Akavir descendant really wanted that sword. Herzog was headed to Nagastani — An Ayleid ruin in eastern Cyrodiil. He had read in scrolls that the Sword would give him magical powers to meet his mothers spirit, if he performed an Ayleid ritual at an old shrine hidden there. Equipped with the artifact sword, he was off to start his own adventure but Ras Kalik, did indeed notice the sword however and instead sent a letter to Jux Blackheart (whom also was interested in Ayleid treasures), to attempt to find Herzog and acquire the sword. (*Azani Blackheart in Elder Scroll's Oblivion is Jux's descendant some 747 years later)

    And so the Redguard, Imperial and Akaviri men parted ways ... While Ras Kalik went off to Elsweyr to encounter the latest threat to Tamriel, with Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan - - DRAGONS!! Little did Ras Kalik know a few people were awaiting him in Senchal besides Sai. A necromancer survived his attack on the Withered Hand, while in Alik'r. The necromancer known as Auriek Siet'ka is also following him to the land of the Khajiits and Cacique the Sage of Ius a Shaman mystic who has become attuned spiritually with Tu'whacca (a Redguard God) and Ius (the Animal God), after being burned severely by the escaped dragons in Elsywer, is awaiting his arrival also. Aurik is a soldier of the Daggerfall Covenant that was introduced to necromancy while in the military, even though this magicka art is not spoken of openly by most of the Military leaders. He came to Alik'r and worked with the Withered Hand before Ras Kalik intervened on their plans. After the defeat of the Withered Hand, he aligned with the Worm Cult, and is constantly adapting and perfecting his necromantic arts.

    After his journey to Rimmen, Kalik heads south to Senchal, in the southern regions of Elyswer. This new adventure will also put him on a path to meet a strange Redguard man. The stranger which was infected with an untreated Peyrite disease and also was the exiled from the Order of the New Moon cult, due to his sickness. He originally joined the cult to worship Laatvulon, the green dragon, mistakenly thinking it was the Daedric prince Peyrite. This confused and suffering cultist is known as Tsar al-Bomba and he is on a path to spread the disease. He was originally infected in Orccrest while recruiting members there. Can Ras Kalik and the shaman Cacique cure this poor soul, only time will tell. Little does Tsar al-Bomba know, that his infection is tied to Vampirism, and eventually the desire for blood will take over his mind. Senchal also offers Kalik his latest love interest... Aeliah. Whom he fondly led thru battles with the Dragonguard.

    After the trek thru the heat, tropical and desert climate of Northern and Southern Elyswer, Ras Kalik heads north to the cold mountain range of Skyrim. His companion friend Lyris beckons for him with a letter sent by crow...

    Movárth Piquine - a former vampire hunter (now infected), within the Fighter's Guild (and a secretive necromancer) was in Skyrim working with the Morthaal Guard. On a patrol mission he was caught in Frewien's ice curse outside of Morthaal with the frozen undead. Movárth's vampiric infection kept him from becoming an undead minion to the curse. He was able to use necromantic ice-magic to encase himself safely until he was freed with Freiwen, when the Vestige Ras Kalik broke the curse.

    Uri Ice-Heart - brother of Urfon Ice-Heart. The twin sons of Atli and Oljourn Ice-Heart. The Ice-Heart family are originally from Markarth but now reside on the Jerall Mountain range near Cyrodiil, with their younger sister Araki. The twins had joined the Winterborn Reachmen while living in Markarth. Urfon pushed west to Orsinium with the Winterborn Clan, leaving his family behind. Uri stayed behind with his parents and sister to live in the family cabin for safety, avoiding the Vampire plague infiltrating the Reach. After news reaches him and he hears of Urfon's death... Uri leaves and heads home and is seeking vengeance. Meanwhile, his sister has also moved on to Windhelm to join the Fighter's guild. He will visit his sister, once before going to seek vengeance and she will craft him armor mixed with ice, called Stalhrim armor. Uri fearing death, after his brother's passing, falls victim to the convincing talk of Movárth at a Nordic tavern, and will also becomes a vampire.

    {time moves forward through the hour-glass}
    PS5/NA - Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar - Daggerfall Covenant • 1550+ Champion
    Returning player - 2017-2022, back in 25'
  • Jeffrey530
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    If she agreed it was predatory and bad but still wanted it the same, you'd have a point. But she does not agree with us.

    Unless your copium levels are off the charts I doubt many would spend money on something and agree it is predatory at the same time.

    Yes I buy from eso or many other companies with predatory practices (fomo, artificially limited editions creating hype etc looking at you ***, adidas, limited edition whiskies) if the price is right for me lol. Since when are businesses not meant to try earn as much as possible from their customer, you know, marketing itself is an entire uni degree and it is very much based on psychology and manipulating people's minds.

    $19.99 for the craft bag? What do you think keep the lights on for mmorpgs like eso.. I'd be fine if they charge $100+ for it if people want it rather than the sub, which would still be quite reasonabe in the gaming industry. I saw some asian mmorpg sold a cosmetic item for 1k usd lol in an auction, yea that's pretty extreme but the ' $30 for a full game and you don't have to pay a single dime more' days are gone and people won't accept it.
  • Athan1
    Athan1
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    I have 1,500 plus hours into this game. I also sometimes play World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2 and Lord of the Rings Online.

    Whats funny is I actually like the combat, I like the graphics and UI with addons. I love the music and love being in Tamriel.
    Its just when I log in, I get mad. I have to physically try to play the game and not think about it.

    How do I get past this or is there even a way?

    I totally get you, I feel the same way. While I love many aspects of this game, in recent months I feel very angry everytime I log on. The aggressive crown store marketing, the denial of issues with overworld/combat, the resistance to any updates to prior content, the poorly written expansions, artificial shortages and a generally immoral crown shop, idk I just don't feel like I am getting my money's worth anymore and I am cancelling my subscription when it expires.

    It's a shame because I like aspects of this game but I just don't feel like it anymore, I think that the company and its policies/aggressive marketing have driven me away. :(
    Athan Atticus Imperial Templar of Shezarr
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    DarkWombat wrote: »
    DarkWombat wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

    All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

    Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

    But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.

    A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.

    What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.

    You are getting predatory confused with pay to win. ESO has never been P2W in my opinion.

    It is an incentive to offer nice perks and conveniences with a subscription, not predatory. It would be predatory to offer play to win items, which they don't.

    Yeah I disagree 100%. Do you find loot boxes predatory?

    No I don't. They only offer cosmetics and other non essential items, and players need to use their self control when making purchases.

    I am with OP on this one. I dont think predatory and pay 2 win have to go hand and hand. Loot boxes, regardless of what is in them, are predatory by their very nature. We can certainly quibble about how much protection people really need from their own self control issues, but gambling addictions are very really. Loot boxes are essentially online slot machines with pixelated rewards that cost real money. Considering entire countries have banned them, I dont think its out of line to call them predatory.
  • Krayl
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    Krayl wrote: »
    I fully understand and expected a reply (I'm surprised it took this long) about how "they have to make money somehow" but there are better ways to do it without making the customer feel bad. Six of my friends don't like the model and neither do I or my son. I am sure there are many others who don't either.

    I guess I just don't grasp the concept of "making the customer feel bad".

    What do you feel bad about. . ?
  • Krayl
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    I totally failed at copy and paste on my phone lol.

    Comment still stands though - why does the crown store make you "feel bad"?

  • spartaxoxo
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    DarkWombat wrote: »
    DarkWombat wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

    All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

    Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

    But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.

    A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.

    What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.

    You are getting predatory confused with pay to win. ESO has never been P2W in my opinion.

    It is an incentive to offer nice perks and conveniences with a subscription, not predatory. It would be predatory to offer play to win items, which they don't.

    Yeah I disagree 100%. Do you find loot boxes predatory?

    No I don't. They only offer cosmetics and other non essential items, and players need to use their self control when making purchases.

    I am with OP on this one. I dont think predatory and pay 2 win have to go hand and hand. Loot boxes, regardless of what is in them, are predatory by their very nature. We can certainly quibble about how much protection people really need from their own self control issues, but gambling addictions are very really. Loot boxes are essentially online slot machines with pixelated rewards that cost real money. Considering entire countries have banned them, I dont think its out of line to call them predatory.

    Personally I feel they are inherently somewhat predatory since people can become addicted. But, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be sold. Gambling is fun and many people can handle it. Same deal with alcohol. So to me personally, I feel that ESO's lootboxes are no longer particularly predatory.

    I used to find them an abusive example but then they made some key changes

    1) they gave us the odds
    2) they added the seals of Endeavor
    3) they started recycling old crates more regularly into the rotation

    On top of that, the game is already rated M.

    By doing these things, I feel that they have put the protections in place needed to make them fair. The rest is on the buyer.

    The system is no longer I need to spend hundreds of dollars gambling right now or I may never get this thing that I strongly desire. Instead, it's "I want to gamble so I don't have to wait forever to get it" or "because it's fun." To me, there is a big difference between gambling because you want to try for quicker payout and gambling because there is no other way to get what you want.

    [Edited last paragraph for grammar and clarity]
    Edited by spartaxoxo on January 24, 2022 9:20PM
  • DarkWombat
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    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    DarkWombat wrote: »
    Krayl wrote: »
    Loot boxes with enticing cosmetic rewards exist for a reason, and that's to keep the company in business and making content for a game you say you otherwise enjoy. If they didn't have interesting and cool things in them, they wouldn't sell them, and you would either HAVE to pay a monthly sub, or the game would just cease to exist. I don't even know how to address your comment about 'limited time' things. Sounds like a personal issue. I like knowing what's coming and going. Also if everyone were forced to sub, same difference the game would probably go away.

    You may feel the content has gotten 'smaller' but just because an overworld land mass isn't as big doesn't mean there is less content. I feel time wise it's all been equitable.

    I do feel your point about the story being incomplete unless you buy everything. But that's no different than any other form of media. I can't just buy one book in a series and expect to know the whole story.

    I can only assume (and this is in no way an insult) that people who have gripes about loot crates and the store model simply don't know how hard it is for a game company to even exist these days. There is a reason there are not many new MMO's out there and the ones that do exist are kinda janky with their pricing models. To keep a staff employed making new content and keeping a game running has a cost

    I feel like they are doing a pretty good job of balancing keeping people employed and content coming with an in-game store that has enticing options for people who want them. You've gotten 1,500 hours of entertainment from the game, apparently. Even if you paid full price for the base games and expansions that's less than 20 cents an hour for entertainment.

    You're entitled to your opinions but try to consider to keep a team employed full time to run this game has a cost, and financing a game studio in 2022 is not easy since they don't have a great track record. Someone who wants to invest their money has much better options than taking a gamble so businesses have had to adopt a way to pay for themselves along the way rather than the old school method of funding a product, making it, and being done.


    I fully understand and expected a reply (I'm surprised it took this long) about how "they have to make money somehow" but there are better ways to do it without making the customer feel bad. Six of my friends don't like the model and neither do I or my son. I am sure there are many others who don't either.

    Lord of the Rings Online has a very similar model and at the risk of someone replying "go play that, then" I will offer their sub as a good example of a Freemium model done right. All mounts and cosmetics are always available all the time. There is no artificial "3 days left!" They do have sales with time left but they NEVER pull items form the store completely nor have loot boxes. Loot boxes have been proven as a type of gambling.

    Continuing with LOTRO, a lot of content can be purchased or played with a VIP sub just like ESO. Even their inventory space is restricted but once you sub for just one month, you unlock the larger inventory which feels nice. You also gets points every month subbed as a VIP just like ESO.

    The only thing I can think of is that ESO just requires a lot more people to run so they need to "entice" users anyway they can even if it is using these shady artificial deadline tricks on electronic items..

    Doesn't that game have entire content parts you can't access without a sub though?

    No you can buy the DLCs just like ESO for that.
  • spartaxoxo
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    DarkWombat wrote: »
    Krayl wrote: »
    Loot boxes with enticing cosmetic rewards exist for a reason, and that's to keep the company in business and making content for a game you say you otherwise enjoy. If they didn't have interesting and cool things in them, they wouldn't sell them, and you would either HAVE to pay a monthly sub, or the game would just cease to exist. I don't even know how to address your comment about 'limited time' things. Sounds like a personal issue. I like knowing what's coming and going. Also if everyone were forced to sub, same difference the game would probably go away.

    You may feel the content has gotten 'smaller' but just because an overworld land mass isn't as big doesn't mean there is less content. I feel time wise it's all been equitable.

    I do feel your point about the story being incomplete unless you buy everything. But that's no different than any other form of media. I can't just buy one book in a series and expect to know the whole story.

    I can only assume (and this is in no way an insult) that people who have gripes about loot crates and the store model simply don't know how hard it is for a game company to even exist these days. There is a reason there are not many new MMO's out there and the ones that do exist are kinda janky with their pricing models. To keep a staff employed making new content and keeping a game running has a cost

    I feel like they are doing a pretty good job of balancing keeping people employed and content coming with an in-game store that has enticing options for people who want them. You've gotten 1,500 hours of entertainment from the game, apparently. Even if you paid full price for the base games and expansions that's less than 20 cents an hour for entertainment.

    You're entitled to your opinions but try to consider to keep a team employed full time to run this game has a cost, and financing a game studio in 2022 is not easy since they don't have a great track record. Someone who wants to invest their money has much better options than taking a gamble so businesses have had to adopt a way to pay for themselves along the way rather than the old school method of funding a product, making it, and being done.


    I fully understand and expected a reply (I'm surprised it took this long) about how "they have to make money somehow" but there are better ways to do it without making the customer feel bad. Six of my friends don't like the model and neither do I or my son. I am sure there are many others who don't either.

    Lord of the Rings Online has a very similar model and at the risk of someone replying "go play that, then" I will offer their sub as a good example of a Freemium model done right. All mounts and cosmetics are always available all the time. There is no artificial "3 days left!" They do have sales with time left but they NEVER pull items form the store completely nor have loot boxes. Loot boxes have been proven as a type of gambling.

    Continuing with LOTRO, a lot of content can be purchased or played with a VIP sub just like ESO. Even their inventory space is restricted but once you sub for just one month, you unlock the larger inventory which feels nice. You also gets points every month subbed as a VIP just like ESO.

    The only thing I can think of is that ESO just requires a lot more people to run so they need to "entice" users anyway they can even if it is using these shady artificial deadline tricks on electronic items..

    Doesn't that game have entire content parts you can't access without a sub though?

    No you can buy the DLCs just like ESO for that.

    I read there was a server you could gain access to with VIP and it has that much celebrated difficulty slider that they added. Can you also buy access to that?
  • DarkWombat
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    Krayl wrote: »
    I totally failed at copy and paste on my phone lol.

    Comment still stands though - why does the crown store make you "feel bad"?

    Okay maybe frustrated, angry whatever. I feel this way because If I don't drop $20 for a mount that I like right now, it may be gone for a long time or forever and without anyway to earn it in game. I don't like creating an artificial "limited stock or time" for an electronic item. Stuff like that pisses me off even outside of ESO..
  • Krayl
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    Lord of the Rings Online has a very similar model . . .

    Let me stop you there.

    Lord of the Rings isn't a remotely comparable model. It's only on PC. You've removed so much overhead by having it on one consistent platform vs. making the game work on multiple generations of consoles that the comparison is quite frankly, apples to oranges. They are MMO's based in a fantasy world and that's where the similarities end.

    If ESO had never been brought to PC, it would be an entirely different game both at it's core and in terms of the monetization.
  • SilverBride
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    I am with OP on this one. I dont think predatory and pay 2 win have to go hand and hand. Loot boxes, regardless of what is in them, are predatory by their very nature. We can certainly quibble about how much protection people really need from their own self control issues, but gambling addictions are very really. Loot boxes are essentially online slot machines with pixelated rewards that cost real money. Considering entire countries have banned them, I dont think its out of line to call them predatory.

    Countries have different laws concerning a lot of things. The fact that some of them ban loot boxes doesn't mean they are predatory.

    And I agree that some people have gambling addictions, but many more don't. That isn't a reason to ban an activity from everyone.

    Personally I would never buy a crown crate because they don't offer anything I care about. But I don't think they are predatory.
    PCNA
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    DarkWombat wrote: »
    DarkWombat wrote: »
    DarkWombat wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

    All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

    Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

    But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.

    A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.

    What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.

    You are getting predatory confused with pay to win. ESO has never been P2W in my opinion.

    It is an incentive to offer nice perks and conveniences with a subscription, not predatory. It would be predatory to offer play to win items, which they don't.

    Yeah I disagree 100%. Do you find loot boxes predatory?

    No I don't. They only offer cosmetics and other non essential items, and players need to use their self control when making purchases.

    I am with OP on this one. I dont think predatory and pay 2 win have to go hand and hand. Loot boxes, regardless of what is in them, are predatory by their very nature. We can certainly quibble about how much protection people really need from their own self control issues, but gambling addictions are very really. Loot boxes are essentially online slot machines with pixelated rewards that cost real money. Considering entire countries have banned them, I dont think its out of line to call them predatory.

    Personally I feel they are inherently somewhat predatory since people can become addicted. But, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be sold
    . Gambling is fun and many people can handle it. Same deal with alcohol. So to me personally, I feel that ESO's lootboxes are no longer particularly predatory.

    I used to find them an abusive example but then they made some key changes

    1) they gave us the odds
    2) they added the seals of Endeavor
    3) they started recycling old crates more regularly into the rotation

    On top of that, the game is already rated M.

    By doing these things, I feel that they have put the protections in place needed to make them fair. The rest is on the buyer.

    Because the system is no longer I need to spend hundreds of dollars gambling right now or I may never get this thing that I strongly desire. It's, I want to gamble so I don't have to wait forever to get it or because it's fun. To me, that's a big difference.

    That's a pretty fair take.

    Edit: Also disclosing the odds was a massive change for me. Loot boxes without disclosed drop rates should be 100% illegal IMO, and that is how they existed for some time in ESO as far as I know.
    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on January 24, 2022 10:02PM
  • SeaGtGruff
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    • I don't like all these mounts and cool items behind loot boxes.

    I have a lot of mounts and pets, but I've never bought a single loot box. I did get some of them from the Crown Store, but not as individual mounts or pets; they were included with the Collector's Editions of various chapters and DLCs, along with other items like Crown Soul Gems and Experience Scrolls, and I bought most of them while they were marked down for a sale. I've also got pets and mounts bought with Crown Gems obtained by converting items in free Crown Crates from Twitch drops or Seals of Endeavor. But as I said, I've never bought a single Crown Crate.

    Do I have a lot of uber-cool, flashy mounts and pets-- "radiant apex," I guess they're called? No, but I do have a few-- and to me, the more normal-looking mounts are more attractive, anyway, because they don't look so flashy and unnatural. So I think a big part of getting over this particular complaint-- which you had listed first, so I guess it might be your number one complaint-- is simply to not care about having a lot of flashy, uber-cool mounts and pets, emotes, skins, personalities, or other "cool items" you might have been referring to.
    I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!
  • ZOS_Hadeostry
    Greetings,

    After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

    If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.
    Staff Post
  • wazbaumukerb14_ESO
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    No I don't. They only offer cosmetics and other non essential items, and players need to use their self control when making purchases.

    The reason gambling is predatory is precisely because "self control" is not really a thing, at least not in the way that people think about it. There is a boatload of psychological research on this topic; loot boxes are literally designed to exploit the weaknesses in our dumb monkey brains.

    ESO's model is far less predatory than others, certainly, but that doesn't make it good.
  • Sawbones194
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    The only way i can get over the Business Model is the fact that it is used to bring me more eso content. I love eso and like to play it. It is good enough to have such was of making money and the money is used to give me more of what i Love.

  • Dark_Lord_Kuro
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    As a subscriber I would be resentful if they did sell the crafting bag to non subscribers.

    Exactly and you should not feel that way. But because you would feel that way proves it is wrong. It should be a core part of the game.
    Its not your place to tell how someone else should feel in any situation
    Edited by Dark_Lord_Kuro on January 24, 2022 11:45PM
  • kargen27
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    It is basically all about choice. You can choose to subscribe or not. Subscribing gives some quality of life benefits but not subscribing does not make the game unplayable. Same with crown store. You can purchase items or not. Nothing in gives a benefit to game play. It is all cosmetics and time shortcuts.
    Choice is a good thing. If you are unwilling or unable to subscribe you can still play the game.

    Content being released throughout the year instead of one large dump is good business sense and is good for long term health of the game. We all know players that rush through any new content getting to the end as quick as possible. If we got one dump a year these people would be gone by late spring. Maybe they show up next year for the new dump maybe not. With content being released in quarterly bundles the wait for new content isn't as long. Players have a reason to play year round.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • Gederic
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    DarkWombat wrote: »
    [*] I don't like it how damage done is based on total mana or stamina, a system so bad that no MMO in history has used it before and the only one who uses it is the one universe that actually had the most hybrids in its single player games, so this system actually hurts that!

    Did I miss the part where this has anything at all to do with their business model?

    As for getting past their business model its simple. Either pay them for optional things or don't and move on with your life having been blessed with not worrying about trivial things. Or write another thread where we all collectively pretend that adults have no agency or responsibility in spending their money on a 100% optional hobby such as a video game.
    Ours is the Fury
  • RicAlmighty
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    Gederic wrote: »
    As for getting past their business model its simple. Either pay them for optional things or don't and move on with your life having been blessed with not worrying about trivial things. Or write another thread where we all collectively pretend that adults have no agency or responsibility in spending their money on a 100% optional hobby such as a video game.

    Agreed 100%. The counter to that is typically "well, it's not about me, it's about other players... you know the ones with gambling addictions and those that are easily manipulated", which is of course nonsense. The main impetus behind any of these threads is that OP wants something from the store and can't get it. Either because it is crate only, or it is a limited time item.

    ESO exists for the same reason as any other highly played game does... to make money. To that end, a developer chooses a monetization method. You may agree or disagree with it as is your right. You may demonstrate your disapproval with your wallet or your time by either refusing to purchase or refusing to play. But offering suggestions that will do nothing other than remove income from the developer is at best a non-starter, and at worst simply a disingenuous argument. Either way, if people keep buying or keep playing, nothing will change.

    I do not particularly care for loot boxes, I've never purchased one and I most likely never will. I simply ignore them, as any rational person should do when presented with a value proposition they do not agree with. The marketing window does not bother me in the slightest as it is dismissed in less than one second. I find value in the ESO+ sub, and so I choose to use it. When the time comes that I no longer find value in it, I will cancel and stop using it knowing full well what I would be losing by doing so. What I do not understand is why someone would choose to spend 1000+ hours in a game that clearly annoys them so much?
    Content Pass is not the answer. It is a question, the answer is No.
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