The Elephant in the Dungeon: Fake Tanks & Healers.

Amottica · December 2021

tmbrinks wrote: »

/zone

"LF 1 heal, 1 tank, 1 DD for 5 (6) key pledges/normal/etc"

It worked for the first few years of the game before dungeon finder. It still works today to get what you want out of a run.

it's what actually got me into the group content in this game... as I played it as a single player game for the first several months. First dungeons, then trials, then veteran raids/achievements/etc...

This is very insightful. Great advice.

Succuby · December 2021

krachall wrote: »

Funny that I posted a solution to this problem and several people commented that it's "not even a problem so no solution is needed." Yet it continues to dominate the forums as it has for years. LOL.

The basic problem is that normal dungeons are extremely trivial for better players but the rewards are attractive enough that these players still want (need) to run them.

So the solution should address THAT. Instead of obscure, completely unnecessary skill checks (Does that guy who flagged tank have a taunt?) or game mechanics, give that player an option to run the dungeon WITHOUT having to flag tank.

Give players the option to form random groups without requiring a tank and healer. Problem solved.

Note, this does not FORCE these players into non-optimized groups, it will simply put them in a non-optimized group if an optimized group is not immediately available. If a group with a tank and healer needs DPS, the next two DPS in the queue will get placed in that group even if they flagged as not needing optimization.

- The queue is greatly reduced, if not eliminated.
- High-skilled DPS can tear through dungeons at full speed (which is VERY fun, by they way)
- Lower skilled/geared players get their optimized groups.

Win. Win. Win.

Peoples who solo dunguans do not care where to go, if not really bad group, but not to much of them.

With no role random search you can get with some time pass that all will vote for that, and party will just start to not pass.

If you play good enough - you do not really care but people who make topics about fake tanks can not solo dunguans, so who will use this option ?

Few people ? Who already have no problems with fakes ?

And ZOS will need a lot of time to make such system. Whyle there are alot of problems. Skills do not work, HA do not start casting, DPS is too small on some sets, but they will start rework party finder for people who already have no problems and it is not to much of them ?

svendf · December 2021

Succuby wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

Pre-made groups and those that walk into the dungeon will not be held to this requirement to allow them to decide their group makeup for themselves, as should always be the case.

It is the only thing I can see that Zenimax can do that could force a player queueing as a tank to have a taunt and actually use it.

I will like to add, that resist is also good thing to have have. Many fake tanks know they don´t have the resist to make a dungeon run less stressful.

Three requirements for a tank.

1. Resist
2. Taunt
3. Health

Do you have those three requirements the player are free to add whatever they want.

99% offake tanks fail on these basic things.

https://youtu.be/Fn_eCR5gfzE

Naked vDLC dunguan run.

Just as example.

Player can stand and have all gear and skills and just do not use it the same time.

Once i get such party !

It is not a requirment !

Just thingth you want others to have - just your own tastes.

If you start make standartizations - skilled players even will not play it. Play like you want - that is what good players of this game want i think.

Some games are so simple, that skilled players do not play it ! They just cant ! It is such boring !

You want teso be such game ?

Let me put it this way then. All of my healers have done nMA on a setup I use in Dungeons. That doesn´t mean all healers out here can do that. My healers haven´t tried vMA yet and frankly it isn´t a goal.

Not knowing your limits or don care about them are a big part of the problem regarding fake tanking/healing and goes hand in hand learning your role.

Now. I did just for a test on my healers and at the time I did it you get actual procent of player´s, who entered the arena 0.2% succeeded (when you get the trophy you see the number), 0.3 % for vMA.

To your video. First of I want to say a very nice job and thumps up and congrats.

That said. The video show you can do it. Does that mean others can do this as well ? How many procent of the player base would be able to do this ?

Same goes for fake tanking. Few are able to make it through the dungeons, without major issues, that why I mention taunt, resist and health. The bosses need to be able to push through your resist, to get at your health.

I don´t know how to put it, other than your video is counterproductive in regarding to the fake tanking problem in this very community.

If you vant to know, what´s going on. You need to enter the content, with those problems and see, what´s going on and at the same time have a very layback attitude and observe.

[snip]

Cheers

[edited for baiting]

AinSoph · December 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

I honestly think that the group finder being random is honestly the source of all these problems and I genuinely think that it cannot exist by itself anymore. A UI that has people post what dungeons they are farming, what role composition they want, and what classes they want a la Guild Finder would be a decent way to go.

the use for the random queue is to fill up spefic queues for dungoens no one else want to run - so if 1 player queues for something like blood root forge and no one else queues for it he doesnt have to wait forever and instead just gains 3 people who dont care and clicked random

and btw sounds like u didnt know u already can select which dungoen u wanna go in if u dont wanna go for random

It still doesn't change the fact that you will get random players with varying goals and skill levels. Random queue should still be there but it cant be by itself anymore imo.

BXR_Lonestar · December 2021

The problem is that ESO's mantra "Play the way you want" is not compatible with a rigid dungeon/game role system. People who want to play as an Orc magsorc psijic mage - great for overland content and roleplay, but not particularly effective at DPS (or any other role). And yet, the dungeon finder system, in order to make sure you get what you need to have a chance at completing the dungeon, tries to shoehorn you into these rigid roles.

To complicate things further, with the way the game is designed, healers/tanks aren't needed in as large numbers, and they are more difficult to play "solo," so a byproduct of the game design is that there are a lot more DPS out there than there are healers/tanks. This makes it so that healers/tanks can que relatively easy, while DPS have extremely long que times. Based on that alone, I can't blame them for using a fake role designation - some people don't have 3 hours to sit in que waiting to get their random dungeon done.

IMO, I actually don't mind getting a fake tank/healer so long as I get a dungeon that doesn't actually require them - and I've completed all the dungeons on vet, so I'm familiar with which ones require a tank or healer and which ones don't. If I take a look and we have a fake tank or healer, I just drop and reque, its not a big deal.

Xebov · December 2021

LilouAndJohn wrote: »

How about this?

Problem:

1. Damage dealers queue as healers or tanks because they get into a dungeon quicker.
2. Healers and tanks queue faster because there are few of them.
3. There are few healers and tanks because they are unattractive for different reasons.

Solution:

Fix the shortage of tanks and healers. A suggestion is that at least healers have very low status in ESO and as this thread shows they are basically frowned upon by many. Making healers and tanks more attractive is a much better way of dealing with the problem than reprogramming the selection process for random dungeons.

Improving the lives of Tanks and Healers has no priority for the bigger part of the DD community.

You can have various topics where the argumentation towards tanks and healers always ends up with "make a DD" and then wondering where all the support players went. The support for support players is simply to bad and the case that many players see the performance of support players as given and are simply unthankful just makes it worse.

KilianDermoth · December 2021

Off-Topic:
Didnt have read everything but:

svendf wrote: »

Now. I did just for a test on my healers and at the time I did it you get actual procent of player´s, who entered the arena 0.2% succeeded (when you get the trophy you see the number), 0.3 % for vMA.

You can see how many people succeeded? I dont get how and where, could you explain it in more detail?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2021

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I do agree with you OP that normal anything is a pretty bad place to learn how to play support.

You're not really needed, often overlooked and people ignore you and rush ahead. You don't learn much of anything.

Even most of base game vet can often skip one of the supports if the team is decent.

What we truely need is a solo arena for supports.

As it stands now:

Normal + base game vet = Teaches you nothing as support
DLC vet = Pain and wipes

It goes from 0-100 too quick. It's a painful way to learn how to Tank.

I suspect in the long run this may be a problem for tank retention. As older tanks leave new ones must come along to fill the role.

How would that even work? Like a 4 man DSA with three NPCs you play a long with? The concept of tank and healer only make sense in group content. In any solo arena, you are all three. The concept of separate roles is meaningless when you are by yourself.

I also disagree with your premise that you cant learn support in normal. I learned to tank by doing random normals then random vets. From a tank perspective, the mechanics are the same. Simply less punishing if you mess up here and there. You can still practice chaining adds, position boss, a proper buff/debuff rotation, etc. From a healer perspective, sure you might not be missed if you take a bathroom break, but you can still practice your healing rotation. Healers should be running an active and dynamic rotation full of buffs and debuffs as well as active and passive heals. Nothing stops you from doing that in normal. Nothing about being a tank or healer means you cant keep pace with a group.

I will certainly agree that the jump to vet is a big leap for a lot of dungeons, but that is because normal is based around the lowest common denominator, i.e. 4 strangers that barely know how to play, and vet is tuned around a coordinated group of experienced players. There is always going to be a million miles between the two, if two difficulty levels is all you have. ZOS needs a place that a group of Randoms can complete most of the time (normal), and they need a place to challenge a coordinated group (veteran).

Back to the thread:
Again, I think this issue is blown wildly out of proportion. I use group finder a decent amount, and almost never have issues of fake tanks and healers. I have the issue of terrible players, but that is expected in a group of randoms. Now the reality is, I can solo pretty much any normal content, and as long as I have a few warm bodies, I can handle a good portion of vet, so maybe It just doesn't affect me as much.

That said, if a fake tank or healer is causing you to fail a random normal, well you need to look inward. If you are queueing as a DPS without a basic self heal or shield or you lack the ability to hold aggro on a normal boss for a few seconds, you are a far bigger problem than any fake player.

If a fake tank or healer is ruining your time because you dont like the pace of play, well, form your own group. You cant expect a group of randoms to wait around while you loot everything in site or spend your time RPing with the quest-giver.

Troodon80 · December 2021

Somewhat off-topic, but...

Amottica wrote: »

I fail to see how that trick can be effective on a boss. Without a taunt, I have seen boss agro change frequently. It seems as though their aggro table, if there actually is one, resets every few seconds.

My suggestion is specific to bosses.

It can and does change regularly. Every few seconds, there is an ability that gets cast called Priority Target. No one, not a single person to date, has been able to pinpoint exactly how the aggro works in this game, as in how threat is generated, or how a priority target is picked if the tank has lost aggro (lost taunt, died, etc.). Various people have suggested various things, many different theories, between HPS, DPS, CMP, last hit by as the Priority Target ability is cast (either before or directly after), etc., etc., but there's nothing solid. You might be able to toss down Caltrops or Blockade and get aggro on one pack, but then one or two enemies might completely ignore you on the next pack.

Sure, people will tell you how they perceive it to work, but even after all these years the aggro system is still largely guesswork from the perspective of players. Opinions are formed mostly based on anecdotal evidence created from coincidence.

LashanW · December 2021

Troodon80 wrote: »

Somewhat off-topic, but...

Amottica wrote: »

I fail to see how that trick can be effective on a boss. Without a taunt, I have seen boss agro change frequently. It seems as though their aggro table, if there actually is one, resets every few seconds.

My suggestion is specific to bosses.

It can and does change regularly. Every few seconds, there is an ability that gets cast called Priority Target. No one, not a single person to date, has been able to pinpoint exactly how the aggro works in this game, as in how threat is generated, or how a priority target is picked if the tank has lost aggro (lost taunt, died, etc.). Various people have suggested various things, many different theories, between HPS, DPS, CMP, last hit by as the Priority Target ability is cast (either before or directly after), etc., etc., but there's nothing solid. You might be able to toss down Caltrops or Blockade and get aggro on one pack, but then one or two enemies might completely ignore you on the next pack.

Sure, people will tell you how they perceive it to work, but even after all these years the aggro system is still largely guesswork from the perspective of players. Opinions are formed mostly based on anecdotal evidence created from coincidence.

From what I have seen, yes aoe DoTs don't grab the attention of all mobs that well. Direct damage seems to work better in this regard. Light attacks seems to always get their attention. (this unfortunately means that one light attack spamming dude in the back always get some mob on them and proceeds to flee for their lives)

Sailor_Palutena · December 2021

I find funny how people goes to random dungeons already equipped with that Ring that keeps you from being healed by someone else. As a healer it is very annoying for me, but I can understand the person.

Arkew · December 2021

simple solution for prevent fake tanking

make like in pvp but for role system based on undaunted lore

Undaunted Slayer (dd): +10 % critical chance and critical damage, offensive buff applied on yourself and ally stay 50 % more, all healing done is reduced by 90 %.

Undaunted mender (healer): increase healing done by 20 %, (major mending) and all regeneration buff stay 50 % more, all damage done is reduced by 95 %(except funnel health because heal are based on damage done).

Undaunted Ironclad (tank):increase armor and max hp by 10 %, all defensive buff stay 50 % more, all heal (except self heal) are reduced by 90 %, all damage done are reduced by 95 %.

this buff/debuff not apply if you enter in the dungeon without using group finder system so if you want make a group of friend 3 dd 1 tank or anything else you still can.

With this system you prevent fake tanking issue by just overnerfing damage of other role for insist DD and speedrunner to not cut the line. that's not fun for everyone but dumb problem ask dumb solution.

WiseSky · December 2021

I always fake tank Easy Nornal Dungeons

HiveMind3006 wrote: »

Okay this is one issue with the game that is becoming so frequent that I think most players seem to just accept it. There are many who believe you don't need a tank or healer in a normal dungeon and this is just not the case for more than the obvious reason. New Tanks and Healers may wish to practice their skills and are being substituted by impatient DPS classes, woe betide anyone who is grouped with 'Zippy' (who just wants to storm through the dungeon and collect his crystals and experience) if you want to learn the dungeon, do the quest or even loot some mats on the way round.
I understand the need they feel as I have 8 characters who all do their Daily Dungeon Randoms but for the love of the Gods please guys show some consideration for others. The arrogance and impatience is quite frankly disgusting.
Back to the Tanks and Healer aren't required discussion, yea you can do the majority of the non DLC's without them but that doesn't mean you should try and get round the queuing system by marking yourself as a healer or tank. A balanced group makes for a faster smoother run without a doubt. Just try some of the DLC instances with an inexperienced group and no heals and it can be a total waste of everyone's time, same applies with a fake tank or even worse but quite common at the minute both tank & heals missing.
The majority of players aren't nasty and don't want to kick people but until ZOS do something about it that's the only option we have to try and combat these players.
And that leads us to what exactly could ZOS do about this problem? I don't know if this is doable but isn't there a way to determine when a player switches class if your have the relevant skills to play as that class, i.e a Sword and Shield and at least one taunt skills on your bar for tanks and a Resto staff and heals slotted for healers? It would certainly make for a better experience for all concerned ...well except for Zippy, coz' unfortunately she/he is going to have to queue a little longer.
Your thoughts please.

I used to wait as DPS for dungeons like 30 mins

Then I realized I just need to slot a taunt for easy Dungeons and can q up as a Tank

Xebov · December 2021

Arkew wrote: »

simple solution for prevent fake tanking

make like in pvp but for role system based on undaunted lore

Undaunted Slayer (dd): +10 % critical chance and critical damage, offensive buff applied on yourself and ally stay 50 % more, all healing done is reduced by 90 %.

Undaunted mender (healer): increase healing done by 20 %, (major mending) and all regeneration buff stay 50 % more, all damage done is reduced by 95 %(except funnel health because heal are based on damage done).

Undaunted Ironclad (tank):increase armor and max hp by 10 %, all defensive buff stay 50 % more, all heal (except self heal) are reduced by 90 %, all damage done are reduced by 95 %.

this buff/debuff not apply if you enter in the dungeon without using group finder system so if you want make a group of friend 3 dd 1 tank or anything else you still can.

With this system you prevent fake tanking issue by just overnerfing damage of other role for insist DD and speedrunner to not cut the line. that's not fun for everyone but dumb problem ask dumb solution.

Iam not so sure how to feel about this. The idea itself has some pitfalls with certain sets that deal damage and heal yourself for example. So you would need alot of exceptions. I think it would be worth it having it as a playtest on PTS to see how it would work out. You have to be aware however that the number of Tanks and Healers will not raise and might even drop for tanks if healers become to bad.

Succuby · December 2021

I am against any META in random dunguans ! Exept may be 30k+ dps for vDLC dunguans on 3 kk dummy.

Tank need agr boss and big adds.

Healer have to have at least 1 mass AOE heal ability or set.

And I do not like system with any debuffs on role. It was not implemented from start so it is bad change now. Play like you want - that means i can effectivly use any skills i want.

People who likes role idea it is only your tastes. This game was not like this from start, i do not see reason it be remade in such way.

svendf · December 2021

KilianDermoth wrote: »

Off-Topic:
Didnt have read everything but:

svendf wrote: »

Now. I did just for a test on my healers and at the time I did it you get actual procent of player´s, who entered the arena 0.2% succeeded (when you get the trophy you see the number), 0.3 % for vMA.

You can see how many people succeeded? I dont get how and where, could you explain it in more detail?

Im on consol so on that platform you go to trophies Orsinium chapter and scroll down to Maelstrom. When I did the arena it was 0.2%. That have changed to 2.0%.

The Conguer Titke is at 0.6%. So a little change over all

Cheers

Succuby · December 2021

svendf wrote: »

KilianDermoth wrote: »

Off-Topic:
Didnt have read everything but:

svendf wrote: »

Now. I did just for a test on my healers and at the time I did it you get actual procent of player´s, who entered the arena 0.2% succeeded (when you get the trophy you see the number), 0.3 % for vMA.

You can see how many people succeeded? I dont get how and where, could you explain it in more detail?

Im on consol so on that platform you go to trophies Orsinium chapter and scroll down to Maelstrom. When I did the arena it was 0.2%. That have changed to 2.0%.

The Conguer Titke is at 0.6%. So a little change over all

Cheers

I even do not understand all this you talk about and this %

Xebov · December 2021

Succuby wrote: »

Play like you want - that means i can effectivly use any skills i want.

That was always a problem in group content where players specialize more to split tasks. Its also a major reason why you have a tank shortage because you end up with players dealing 5k dps while telling you they play as they want and expect you to compensate for it with 10min tanking sessions.

Whiskey_JG · December 2021

I'll give a somewhat unorthodox input on this issue.

I am one of those people that occasionally will fake tank/heal while being dps. I do this only on random normal dungeons as I can pretty much solo the content on my own with no need for support. So this makes the RND daily chore quicker. Usually this is not a problem as I compensate with more than enough dps.

This isnt exactly a problem, even for veteran stuff as you can get by keeping basic taunts and roll dodging heavies. (unless you are doing HMs of course).
The role of tank and healer are somewhat diluted in certain content as you can overwhelm the game with dps unless you are doing DLCs and there is some timed mechanic. The problem I personally see is people NOT knowing what they are supposed to do in their role.

I am personally more pissed off seeing a tank using some silly set like "Knightmare" or "Battalion Defender" coz at that point i'd rather slot inner fire and tank everything myself. Same goes for healers that spam only 1 skill - I can get more heals with pale order ring at that point. This applies even further to DDs that can output more than 20k dps.

So the elephant in the dungeon are not people in fake roles but people who dont know how the game operates. All base game content normal & vet, can be done with no tank/healer because all bosses follow the same patterns AND any mechanics can be skipped. Furthermore, when I occasionally queue for dungeons with my REAL warden tank, 7 times out of 10 its a bad experience because group dps does not exceed 30k.

So why should I queue with my real tank and spend 45mins in a dungeon, when I can fake tank with my magdk and drop 100k+ dps on every pack/boss and clear it in 8mins??

Arkew · December 2021

Xebov wrote: »

Arkew wrote: »

simple solution for prevent fake tanking

make like in pvp but for role system based on undaunted lore

Undaunted Slayer (dd): +10 % critical chance and critical damage, offensive buff applied on yourself and ally stay 50 % more, all healing done is reduced by 90 %.

Undaunted mender (healer): increase healing done by 20 %, (major mending) and all regeneration buff stay 50 % more, all damage done is reduced by 95 %(except funnel health because heal are based on damage done).

Undaunted Ironclad (tank):increase armor and max hp by 10 %, all defensive buff stay 50 % more, all heal (except self heal) are reduced by 90 %, all damage done are reduced by 95 %.

this buff/debuff not apply if you enter in the dungeon without using group finder system so if you want make a group of friend 3 dd 1 tank or anything else you still can.

With this system you prevent fake tanking issue by just overnerfing damage of other role for insist DD and speedrunner to not cut the line. that's not fun for everyone but dumb problem ask dumb solution.

Iam not so sure how to feel about this. The idea itself has some pitfalls with certain sets that deal damage and heal yourself for example. So you would need alot of exceptions. I think it would be worth it having it as a playtest on PTS to see how it would work out. You have to be aware however that the number of Tanks and Healers will not raise and might even drop for tanks if healers become to bad.

but fake tank/healer to since it's dd who tag for it they gonna see theyr damage nerfed to oblivion and become useless and fastly kicked.

Xebov · December 2021

Whiskey_JG wrote: »

I'll give a somewhat unorthodox input on this issue.

I am one of those people that occasionally will fake tank/heal while being dps. I do this only on random normal dungeons as I can pretty much solo the content on my own with no need for support. So this makes the RND daily chore quicker. Usually this is not a problem as I compensate with more than enough dps.

This isnt exactly a problem, even for veteran stuff as you can get by keeping basic taunts and roll dodging heavies. (unless you are doing HMs of course).
The role of tank and healer are somewhat diluted in certain content as you can overwhelm the game with dps unless you are doing DLCs and there is some timed mechanic. The problem I personally see is people NOT knowing what they are supposed to do in their role.

I am personally more pissed off seeing a tank using some silly set like "Knightmare" or "Battalion Defender" coz at that point i'd rather slot inner fire and tank everything myself. Same goes for healers that spam only 1 skill - I can get more heals with pale order ring at that point. This applies even further to DDs that can output more than 20k dps.

So the elephant in the dungeon are not people in fake roles but people who dont know how the game operates. All base game content normal & vet, can be done with no tank/healer because all bosses follow the same patterns AND any mechanics can be skipped. Furthermore, when I occasionally queue for dungeons with my REAL warden tank, 7 times out of 10 its a bad experience because group dps does not exceed 30k.

So why should I queue with my real tank and spend 45mins in a dungeon, when I can fake tank with my magdk and drop 100k+ dps on every pack/boss and clear it in 8mins??

That sums up very well why many tanks prefer premade groups or drop pug groups regularly.

Arkew wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Arkew wrote: »

simple solution for prevent fake tanking

make like in pvp but for role system based on undaunted lore

Undaunted Slayer (dd): +10 % critical chance and critical damage, offensive buff applied on yourself and ally stay 50 % more, all healing done is reduced by 90 %.

Undaunted mender (healer): increase healing done by 20 %, (major mending) and all regeneration buff stay 50 % more, all damage done is reduced by 95 %(except funnel health because heal are based on damage done).

Undaunted Ironclad (tank):increase armor and max hp by 10 %, all defensive buff stay 50 % more, all heal (except self heal) are reduced by 90 %, all damage done are reduced by 95 %.

this buff/debuff not apply if you enter in the dungeon without using group finder system so if you want make a group of friend 3 dd 1 tank or anything else you still can.

With this system you prevent fake tanking issue by just overnerfing damage of other role for insist DD and speedrunner to not cut the line. that's not fun for everyone but dumb problem ask dumb solution.

Iam not so sure how to feel about this. The idea itself has some pitfalls with certain sets that deal damage and heal yourself for example. So you would need alot of exceptions. I think it would be worth it having it as a playtest on PTS to see how it would work out. You have to be aware however that the number of Tanks and Healers will not raise and might even drop for tanks if healers become to bad.

but fake tank/healer to since it's dd who tag for it they gonna see theyr damage nerfed to oblivion and become useless and fastly kicked.

I understand this. The general problem i have with dungeons are fake/bad dds. Iam a tank so naturally iam not effected by fake tanks and fake healers often have no impact on me as well. Your solution would no doubt reduce fake tanks/healers, but it would not solve the problem tanks and healers are facing when it comes to dds. It has side effects and one could be that the tank population drops further as the average group simply gets worse.

KaGaOri · December 2021

Xebov wrote: »

I understand this. The general problem i have with dungeons are fake/bad dds. Iam a tank so naturally iam not effected by fake tanks and fake healers often have no impact on me as well. Your solution would no doubt reduce fake tanks/healers, but it would not solve the problem tanks and healers are facing when it comes to dds. It has side effects and one could be that the tank population drops further as the average group simply gets worse.

The bad (or fake) dd problem is caused by big part by novice players getting into groups where no one heals or tanks, but everyone runs while high cp teammate kills everything. They never had to do damage in dungeon, so they don't. And it won't magically change if they get into harder content. Plus they will blame everyone else for failed runs - they were fine in all previous content, so it can't be their fault, but the group's.

The game design should make it so the dds - not the tank, not the healer - have to do damage for the run to be successful. Also should make it so running repeatedly dungeon designed for lvl 10 on 1000 cp character isn't the recipe for getting maximum rewards. That way the op players would move on to sink claws into something harder (also needing decent dps and real tank / healer) and lowbies would learn to play their role from a get-go. For example right now I'm playing "can I block this?" game with my low level tank (since both my dd and healer would roll-dodge everything if it could be helped). I sort of expect to have it sorted out before getting dlc / vet dungeons unlocked. It would be nice if more groups let me tank instead one high cp player running at speed of light and soloing everything, since it's easy for them. Or if they let the lowbie dd get couple attacks in.

In short - getting fake tanks / healers sorted would likely help reduce the low dps dds problem too.

Amottica · December 2021

Arkew wrote: »

simple solution for prevent fake tanking

make like in pvp but for role system based on undaunted lore

Undaunted Slayer (dd): +10 % critical chance and critical damage, offensive buff applied on yourself and ally stay 50 % more, all healing done is reduced by 90 %.

Undaunted mender (healer): increase healing done by 20 %, (major mending) and all regeneration buff stay 50 % more, all damage done is reduced by 95 %(except funnel health because heal are based on damage done).

Undaunted Ironclad (tank):increase armor and max hp by 10 %, all defensive buff stay 50 % more, all heal (except self heal) are reduced by 90 %, all damage done are reduced by 95 %.

this buff/debuff not apply if you enter in the dungeon without using group finder system so if you want make a group of friend 3 dd 1 tank or anything else you still can.

With this system you prevent fake tanking issue by just overnerfing damage of other role for insist DD and speedrunner to not cut the line. that's not fun for everyone but dumb problem ask dumb solution.

Sorry but the idea forces groups to use the trinity even if they form on their own. I do not think such restrictive approaches should be implemented.

Further, there are people who want trials to be added to the GF. That means this will carry over to such trials. There are fights where players have to go into a different area or are to far away from healers by the design of the fight. As such those designs become very problematic since the DPS cannot heal themselves.

As I said earlier, bosses do an unavoidable one-shot on whoever has aggro if the boss goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. This would wipe the group which would lead to DPS who have no intention of tanking to cease queueing as a tank. Someone said that punishes the rest of the group but the reality is some players think they are being punished for getting a fake tank yet this suggestion would reduce how often they get such a player without harming any other aspect of grouping for dungeons.

Amottica · December 2021

KaGaOri wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

I understand this. The general problem i have with dungeons are fake/bad dds. Iam a tank so naturally iam not effected by fake tanks and fake healers often have no impact on me as well. Your solution would no doubt reduce fake tanks/healers, but it would not solve the problem tanks and healers are facing when it comes to dds. It has side effects and one could be that the tank population drops further as the average group simply gets worse.

The bad (or fake) dd problem is caused by big part by novice players getting into groups where no one heals or tanks, but everyone runs while high cp teammate kills everything. They never had to do damage in dungeon, so they don't. And it won't magically change if they get into harder content. Plus they will blame everyone else for failed runs - they were fine in all previous content, so it can't be their fault, but the group's.

The game design should make it so the dds - not the tank, not the healer - have to do damage for the run to be successful. Also should make it so running repeatedly dungeon designed for lvl 10 on 1000 cp character isn't the recipe for getting maximum rewards. That way the op players would move on to sink claws into something harder (also needing decent dps and real tank / healer) and lowbies would learn to play their role from a get-go. For example right now I'm playing "can I block this?" game with my low level tank (since both my dd and healer would roll-dodge everything if it could be helped). I sort of expect to have it sorted out before getting dlc / vet dungeons unlocked. It would be nice if more groups let me tank instead one high cp player running at speed of light and soloing everything, since it's easy for them. Or if they let the lowbie dd get couple attacks in.

In short - getting fake tanks / healers sorted would likely help reduce the low dps dds problem too.

This is not the case from my experience. When I queued solo as a healer before finding my guild I found myself doing more dps than both DDs combined even though I was healing and tossing orbs. I was not trying to do a lot of damage either and was new to the game so my build was not refined. I even out DPSed a group of CP capped players when I was around CP160. In all the cases there was also a tank.

So the low DPS was due to the poorly performing builds and rotations, not the lack of support roles in the group.

ixthUA · December 2021

I just realized that faking role is not a problem, but an advantage that majority loves: they can slot a taunt or heal, skip queue and complete the dungeon in 10 minutes. Therefore they will be strongly against anything that removes this advantage.

WiseSky · December 2021

ixthUA wrote: »

I just realized that faking role is not a problem, but an advantage that majority loves: they can slot a taunt or heal, skip queue and complete the dungeon in 10 minutes. Therefore they will be strongly against anything that removes this advantage.

Welcome to the dark side

But just keep in mind that its best to stay out of Vet or Dlc dungeons for that

Amottica · December 2021

ixthUA wrote: »

I just realized that faking role is not a problem, but an advantage that majority loves: they can slot a taunt or heal, skip queue and complete the dungeon in 10 minutes. Therefore they will be strongly against anything that removes this advantage.

I expect a fake tank or healer is one that does not have a taunt or a heal that heals others. That is what makes them fake.

If it is a matter that they are taunting or healing and people just think they should have a different build then that is just personal taste and should be rectified by forming one's own group.

Vulkunne · December 2021

krachall wrote: »

Funny that I posted a solution to this problem and several people commented that it's "not even a problem so no solution is needed." Yet it continues to dominate the forums as it has for years. LOL.

The basic problem is that normal dungeons are extremely trivial for better players but the rewards are attractive enough that these players still want (need) to run them.

So the solution should address THAT. Instead of obscure, completely unnecessary skill checks (Does that guy who flagged tank have a taunt?) or game mechanics, give that player an option to run the dungeon WITHOUT having to flag tank.

Give players the option to form random groups without requiring a tank and healer. Problem solved.

Note, this does not FORCE these players into non-optimized groups, it will simply put them in a non-optimized group if an optimized group is not immediately available. If a group with a tank and healer needs DPS, the next two DPS in the queue will get placed in that group even if they flagged as not needing optimization.

- The queue is greatly reduced, if not eliminated.
- High-skilled DPS can tear through dungeons at full speed (which is VERY fun, by they way)
- Lower skilled/geared players get their optimized groups.

Win. Win. Win.

Seeing this here I completely agree. In the old system you could have ppl slot for multiple roles, which at least for my group actually helped make things better organized because we knew who had the group heals and who had the taunts.

I very much agree they should go back to letting us setup the group roles how we need them to be and a hands off approach to the problem itself is simply all around better. Adding more red tape and trying to force things is just going to make ppl work harder to find ways to continue to avoid doing things as intended.

But like I said this is why I try to know who I'm running with, lead the run myself or wait until Prime Time when there is a greater chance of getting someone ready to fill their role vs off hours when ppl try to get carried to knock out quests, but contribute virtually nothing to the group other than whatever it is they're specifically trying to get.

Vulkunne · December 2021

KaGaOri wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

I understand this. The general problem i have with dungeons are fake/bad dds. Iam a tank so naturally iam not effected by fake tanks and fake healers often have no impact on me as well. Your solution would no doubt reduce fake tanks/healers, but it would not solve the problem tanks and healers are facing when it comes to dds. It has side effects and one could be that the tank population drops further as the average group simply gets worse.

The bad (or fake) dd problem is caused by big part by novice players getting into groups where no one heals or tanks, but everyone runs while high cp teammate kills everything. They never had to do damage in dungeon, so they don't. And it won't magically change if they get into harder content. Plus they will blame everyone else for failed runs - they were fine in all previous content, so it can't be their fault, but the group's.

The game design should make it so the dds - not the tank, not the healer - have to do damage for the run to be successful. Also should make it so running repeatedly dungeon designed for lvl 10 on 1000 cp character isn't the recipe for getting maximum rewards. That way the op players would move on to sink claws into something harder (also needing decent dps and real tank / healer) and lowbies would learn to play their role from a get-go. For example right now I'm playing "can I block this?" game with my low level tank (since both my dd and healer would roll-dodge everything if it could be helped). I sort of expect to have it sorted out before getting dlc / vet dungeons unlocked. It would be nice if more groups let me tank instead one high cp player running at speed of light and soloing everything, since it's easy for them. Or if they let the lowbie dd get couple attacks in.

In short - getting fake tanks / healers sorted would likely help reduce the low dps dds problem too.

The issue we have here is many of the new sets are totally out of control producing exceptionally powerful builds. This means that the balance of power is completely out of whack for a traditional group, where one can Solo the content, one has no need to rely on others.

And that's what has happened to ESO over time, unintentionally, as they try to improve the game by releasing things players want or need, even if they have to earn, all of this ultimately serves as a nail in the coffin for the Traditional Group. For example, from this side of the fence my crew does not require anyone with a specific healer role. We are Critical Thinkers (& Drinkers) and so each of us can practically do everything ourselves with no need for Traditional Group Structure.

The Horse is out of the barn; There is no going back now. The best they could do is make the content for some normal and vet runs more difficult, in order to adapt the difficulty level to the new powerful capabilities being employed by an ever growing number of players. And these two concepts are mutual exclusive, it makes no sense to place artificial constraints that are intended to obstruct the opportunities that new content was created for and at same time it is also not logical to create new content with freedom like never before and not adapt a challenge suited appropriately for a typical group experiencing it.

And so, as of right now many of the Normal Difficulty runs are solo-able as well as some of the Veteran runs as well because their difficulty and mechanics have not yet been updated to present sufficient challenge for a modern era group. Until people are no longer able to solo these runs as easily the problem will remain with us.

ixthUA · December 2021

Amottica wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

I just realized that faking role is not a problem, but an advantage that majority loves: they can slot a taunt or heal, skip queue and complete the dungeon in 10 minutes. Therefore they will be strongly against anything that removes this advantage.

I expect a fake tank or healer is one that does not have a taunt or a heal that heals others. That is what makes them fake.

If it is a matter that they are taunting or healing and people just think they should have a different build then that is just personal taste and should be rectified by forming one's own group.

I've seen many "tanks" with taunt who repeatedly die from 1 hit, or keep kiting bosses all over area.