The Elephant in the Dungeon: Fake Tanks & Healers.

Zezin · December 2021

Xebov wrote: »

KaGaOri wrote: »

Will make wild uneducated guess here:

1) people saying "fake roles in normal dungeons are not a problem and we don't understand why there's n-th thread about it" have 1000+ cp, bunch of fully leveled characters, at least 1 year experience in game and (possibly) previous experience from other mmo games.

2) people making these threads / writing in these threads have much less cp (if any), are still leveling their characters, are newer to game, (possibly) ESO being their first mmo ever.

It's easy to say it isn't a problem if it doesn't impact you since you can solo all of the mentioned content and rest of group is just icing on the cake to make it faster. It will continue to be problem for less experienced players and players with low level characters who simply can't keep up no matter how much they try. It will keep poping up on the forums as long as ZOS will encourage high-end players to run low-end content like a treadmill.

Some ideas:
- make normal base game dungeons no cp zone (like BGs)
- gradually scale the reward down in normal dungeons based on how much character outleveles them starting at lvl 50 / 160 cp
- put better reward in harder content (run 1x hard dungeon vs run 5x easy dungeon = same number of crystals)
- make PvP alternative for getting gear / transmutes, so PvP players aren't forced to do content they detest over and over

These threads add nothing new to the table and also dont bring any actual solutions with it that dont have huge sideffects.

As a tank player i can tell you that many of the healers i get are fake healers and a good number of them are actual low level players having 200 or 500CP or PvP players. Half of them dont deal any damage and just want to be carried, but they all believe that healers are not needed. As a tank i got used to it. I have to get used to it because the one who gets the blame is me, not the fake guy because ppl dont have any level of perception.

If you suggets ppl strugling with fakers to use group kick or leave and requeue or premake groups they dont like it or dont use it.

All ppl do here is posting "ideas" how to solve it.
Ive seen role locks and gear limitations that would also effect real healers and real tanks, but since DDs are selfcentered they never recognize it.
Ive seen suggestions reducing normal random or normal dungeon rewards without ppl realizing that these rewards are the major reason pug groups even come into existence.
Ive seen suggestions on increasing vet rewards without realizing that inexperienced players will start jumping into vet for the better reards. Something you can already see on pledges.

In the end everyone in these threads complains about fake tanks and healers, but noone wants to fill the roles and noone cares about the roles. Everyone just wants a real tank and real healer coupled with low queue times and noone cares how it could be done because everyone is selfcentered around their "problem" and these threads will not change anything about it. Thats also visible when talking about bad/fake dds that are a reason fewer tanks queue, which gets instantly shut down and denied.

I only ever queue with a tank setup with people I know, it's painful as a dps main to slog through a dungeon with 2 dps and a fake healer that combined can't do the same damage as you when running dps.

MEBengalsFan2001 · December 2021

How many of these post do we need? I don't mind players running a fake role if they at least at least are able to do the main function of the role. Fake healers should have 2 AoE type of heals and fake tanks need a taunt. The later is the bigger issue I see in content and it is quite frustrating running with tanks who aren't even remotely a fake tank they are simply a DPS and usually bad ones at that.

Best thing to do for these fake players is vote kick on them, report them for ruining your game experience or you could troll them by pulling a bunch of adds and if you got a invis pot pop that and go hide until they either kill the adds or die. Either way you will benefit from the loot or their death.

Jack-0 · December 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

Bottom line is that many players only care about themselves.

Indeed. And it is these rather short-sighted players trying to slow down everyone else in the dungeon that are being misguided at best and selfish at worst about it.

You only need to do the story quest for the skill point once per dungeon per character. You don’t even need to pay attention to the story once you’ve heard it once - it’s the same for each character you run through that dungeon. So why on earth should everyone else, on their thousandth run through, want to wait for some laggard to loot every crate and barrel?

When someone says they’re on a quest I’ll gladly wait for them and do my best to slow everyone else down too (I’m a real tank, btw). But otherwise, let’s hit the ground running and rush through.

zaria · December 2021

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

There really is no reason for a tank or healer in basically any Normal dungeon. Vet obviously is another story, but even most of those can probably be done without one or the other.

There are some trials that can be solo'd. People do vDSA with no healer all the time.

Mostly agree, now an group with low cp inexperienced players in normal moon hunter keep or other of the harder DLC would get problems. Places like march of sacrifice and moonhunter keep is interesting with fake tank.

Remember an darkshade 2 run, granted this was vet, decent pug, I tanked, just after the netch the healer DC and did not come back. We cleared the area before the last door and, the the DD was not very sturdy. We agree to try last boss without an replacement, as in I ressed the DD after poison, they did damage on boss and I pulled the adds under him, repeat.

Now it depend a lot on the group.
Did CoA2 HM with fake tank and semi fake healer as in this one on magplar with extended ritual and Ritual of Rebirth

But that is an group who has done lots of vet dlc.
But if you do an 3-4 DD pug and you have the low cp guy being dead all the time, its an reason, first he is less sturdy and he is also less familiar with mechanics.

Troodon80 · December 2021

zaria wrote: »

Now it depend a lot on the group.

100% agree. I've made this point as well at various times. It's all well and good saying that a full group of 1000+ CP players in full meta gear can blow through a random normal and not need a tank or healer, and that's largely true. But I still remember when I started, before I had CP, all those years ago [insert "it's been 84 years" meme], when normal dungeons were "hard" because of a lack of (1) experience/knowledge, (2) lack of CP/damage/mitigation, and, (3) high-DPS players.

I say this sort of thing to friends who ask "how hard is X?" I can't really answer that for you.

The first question I ask is: Well... from what perspective? From an organised and optimised group perspective? If everyone knows what they're doing or can easily adapt to any given situation... It's easy. Anything is easy with the right group. Then I get "Oh, well, pfft, yeah, of course you'd say it's easy," and then I explain the mechanics. It's all in the group, and it's all in perspective based on the group. With random people from the dungeon finder, the only guarantee is that the person will be level 10 or higher. That's it. Which means that... no, it's not always "easy."

Xebov · December 2021

BornDownUnder wrote: »

Why not help improve the newer players with constructive criticism and passing on knowledge you have gained instead of just trying to rush through the content as you have done multiple times prior? The greatest gift you can give is knowledge.

Because it doesnt work. I play as a tank for years now and at some point i tried to teach players.
If i try to explain mechanics to them most are not even reading it and i can be happy if some manage to get it right after 4-5 tries.
If i tell them that their performance is not good enought to beat a given content they get mad and call me an elitist.
If i suggest to them they should improve after we finished content they got mad because "they" completed the content. They dont have the perception for how much they realy did.
With that experience i simply stopped teaching anyone, if a group shows signs of not being good enought i simply drop them because it reduces stress for me and safes me time.

KaGaOri wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

KaGaOri wrote: »

Will make wild uneducated guess here:

1) people saying "fake roles in normal dungeons are not a problem and we don't understand why there's n-th thread about it" have 1000+ cp, bunch of fully leveled characters, at least 1 year experience in game and (possibly) previous experience from other mmo games.

2) people making these threads / writing in these threads have much less cp (if any), are still leveling their characters, are newer to game, (possibly) ESO being their first mmo ever.

It's easy to say it isn't a problem if it doesn't impact you since you can solo all of the mentioned content and rest of group is just icing on the cake to make it faster. It will continue to be problem for less experienced players and players with low level characters who simply can't keep up no matter how much they try. It will keep poping up on the forums as long as ZOS will encourage high-end players to run low-end content like a treadmill.

Some ideas:
- make normal base game dungeons no cp zone (like BGs)
- gradually scale the reward down in normal dungeons based on how much character outleveles them starting at lvl 50 / 160 cp
- put better reward in harder content (run 1x hard dungeon vs run 5x easy dungeon = same number of crystals)
- make PvP alternative for getting gear / transmutes, so PvP players aren't forced to do content they detest over and over

These threads add nothing new to the table and also dont bring any actual solutions with it that dont have huge sideffects.

As a tank player i can tell you that many of the healers i get are fake healers and a good number of them are actual low level players having 200 or 500CP or PvP players. Half of them dont deal any damage and just want to be carried, but they all believe that healers are not needed. As a tank i got used to it. I have to get used to it because the one who gets the blame is me, not the fake guy because ppl dont have any level of perception.

If you suggets ppl strugling with fakers to use group kick or leave and requeue or premake groups they dont like it or dont use it.

All ppl do here is posting "ideas" how to solve it.
Ive seen role locks and gear limitations that would also effect real healers and real tanks, but since DDs are selfcentered they never recognize it.
Ive seen suggestions reducing normal random or normal dungeon rewards without ppl realizing that these rewards are the major reason pug groups even come into existence.
Ive seen suggestions on increasing vet rewards without realizing that inexperienced players will start jumping into vet for the better reards. Something you can already see on pledges.

In the end everyone in these threads complains about fake tanks and healers, but noone wants to fill the roles and noone cares about the roles. Everyone just wants a real tank and real healer coupled with low queue times and noone cares how it could be done because everyone is selfcentered around their "problem" and these threads will not change anything about it. Thats also visible when talking about bad/fake dds that are a reason fewer tanks queue, which gets instantly shut down and denied.

Made tank last week and high cp players make dungeons just miserable. Can't do pledges yet, so need only 2 things in dungeons at this point - do quest for skill point + learn tanking in content where me making mistake won't wipe group. As it is, have to do each dungeon 2 - 3 times to get quest done and got to tank bosses in maybe three runs even while running several dungeons every day. There is always that one high cp player in the group soloing the whole thing and running at speed my low level tank can't match. Forgot how bad base game normals are, to be honest. If wanting to tank, probably will have to go directly to vet and figgure things out in there.

If the player can solo normal dungeon, they shouldn't have problem running vet and there should be something motivating them to go there instead. Or something to even the playing-field with low level characters. Right now new players get carried (or rather dragged through the dungeon) by one overpowered speedunner. No one has chance to try out playing support roles (high cp doesn't need tanking / healing in base game normals) and dd won't learn to do damage (never needed to, fake tank / healer killed everything before they got there). Easy dungeons should be for low level characters and players unable to do vet. Likely more casuals would give dungeons chance, or even try support roles, if there was place for them to start.

This is a problem thats mainly caused by dropping high level players into groups with low level players. If i run normal dungeons i frequently end up as a CP1900 tank with a group of level 10 players. This could be reduced by trying to fit ppl better together based on their level.

M0ntie · December 2021

There will keep being posts until ZoS does something to make people queue for roles they are at least attempting to fill.
Having a tank that at least holds taunt in the big stuff makes it much more efficient to clear. Newer players who can’t solo the dungeon need a tank and some heals to clear without a horrible experience.
Having the option when queuing to say you will run without a real tank or healer would help.
If I’ve waited much longer queued as a dps, even if I can solo the dungeon, why should I also be self healing and tanking the boss for selfish people not doing the job they signed up for? It is much faster to clear with a real tank holding the boss in AOEs and not killing the inexperienced players, or me if I miss blocking/dodging because I’m concentrating on doing damage.

Xebov · December 2021

M0ntie wrote: »

There will keep being posts until ZoS does something to make people queue for roles they are at least attempting to fill.
Having a tank that at least holds taunt in the big stuff makes it much more efficient to clear. Newer players who can’t solo the dungeon need a tank and some heals to clear without a horrible experience.
Having the option when queuing to say you will run without a real tank or healer would help.
If I’ve waited much longer queued as a dps, even if I can solo the dungeon, why should I also be self healing and tanking the boss for selfish people not doing the job they signed up for? It is much faster to clear with a real tank holding the boss in AOEs and not killing the inexperienced players, or me if I miss blocking/dodging because I’m concentrating on doing damage.

There is nothing ZOS can realy do that wouldnt break parts of the game. After all its a game that offers alot of freedom.
Iam against putting limitations on the roles, because real tanks and healers would be the ones that have to deal with it without getting any gain from it because our problem (bad/fake dds) would likely not be covered by it. After all we are talking about a problem created by dds that mostly effects dds and the solution cannot be to punish everyone else except for the role that created this mess in the first place.

tmbrinks · December 2021

/zone

"LF 1 heal, 1 tank, 1 DD for 5 (6) key pledges/normal/etc"

It worked for the first few years of the game before dungeon finder. It still works today to get what you want out of a run.

it's what actually got me into the group content in this game... as I played it as a single player game for the first several months. First dungeons, then trials, then veteran raids/achievements/etc...

El_Borracho · December 2021

Hmm, so the new reason to shame players into slowing down in the base dungeons is "other players need to learn how to tank and heal." One problem:

You can not learn how to properly tank or heal by tanking or healing normal base dungeons.

With a pair of C-minus DDs, nothing will survive long enough for a tank to learn how to taunt, move, pull, block, interrupt, or even survive on their own. Nobody will be in any peril for the healer to heal. A group like that can roll through one of these dungeons in under 10 minutes. These dungeons can be soloed with or without companions. Running has no impact on "learning how to tank or heal" in these conditions. Because whether this groups runs up to the last 3 bosses in Volenfell or walk up to them, they will be dead in under 10 seconds, regardless of what the tank does.

If you want to learn how to tank or heal, run a veteran base dungeon or run a normal DLC dungeon. A place where you and others can actually die if mechanics are ignored. Where running ahead will be punished by the game. Where a tank has to learn how to hold aggro for more than 30 seconds and bosses hit hard enough for a healer to heal.

Finally, the best way to learn how to tank or heal is running with friends who have tanked or healed. Not in group finder.

Vevvev · December 2021

El_Borracho wrote: »

Finally, the best way to learn how to tank or heal is running with friends who have tanked or healed. Not in group finder.

That's one of the best ways imo. When I was learning how to tank in those difficult situations it was a blessing when someone else in the group had tanked/healed it before. The knowledge they pass on to you is the difference between a group wipe and a defeated boss.

AinSoph · December 2021

I honestly think that the group finder being random is honestly the source of all these problems and I genuinely think that it cannot exist by itself anymore. A UI that has people post what dungeons they are farming, what role composition they want, and what classes they want a la Guild Finder would be a decent way to go.

Vulkunne · December 2021

I don't run any PvE content unless I either know who I'm running with or I'm Tank role directing the run.

Those two simple things cuts out alot of problems.

AlayneStone · December 2021

non DLC normals do not need a tank. Anytime i actually go on my tank the odd time i run these either the dps run ahead and just kill everything while i burn my stam trying to keep up or the dps is so bad it takes waaaaaaay to long. Honestly just que with people you know or make a group from zone chat or guild. Is it selfish ? maybe but so is expecting people to spend 30 mins or more in a normal dungeon with you, i have a life outside the game as well and other things i would like to do before reality calls me back.

KhajiitLivesMatter · December 2021

AinSoph wrote: »

I honestly think that the group finder being random is honestly the source of all these problems and I genuinely think that it cannot exist by itself anymore. A UI that has people post what dungeons they are farming, what role composition they want, and what classes they want a la Guild Finder would be a decent way to go.

the use for the random queue is to fill up spefic queues for dungoens no one else want to run - so if 1 player queues for something like blood root forge and no one else queues for it he doesnt have to wait forever and instead just gains 3 people who dont care and clicked random

and btw sounds like u didnt know u already can select which dungoen u wanna go in if u dont wanna go for random

Call_of_Red_Mountain · December 2021

I see this forum discussion every week. Imo if you can't survive as dps without heal... you doing something wrong. I'm talking about vet vanilla dungeons and non hm vet dlc. Normals not in this list because they're too easy and sup roles completely useless there. I tried tank and i have healers. Still.. 3 dps meta. As a new player you can find friends and start your first journey in group content with classic roles. Stop blaming ppl for fakes in randoms. Ask zos why dps so high and sup roles so useless these days.

svendf · December 2021

Hawco10 wrote: »

As a healer, I like nothing better than 3 dd’s. Goes way faster and smoother.
There are plenty of guilds around where tanks etc can group up and learn the mechanics of a specific dungeon. YouTube too. Joining a random group and going “Hmm, what should I do here ?” Is not a good idea.

As a healer I like two dd´s and a tank. I makes better dd`s., they learn to stand on their own feet.

As a tank I like two dd´s and a healer, simply because it make better tanks, healer and dd´s

As a dd I like a tank and healer and a additional dd, because it keep me in shape as a dd.

Learn mechanics from yt videos ? I had alot of these player´s in group, they maybe know what´s coming, There is only one way doing this. Learn by doing.

Like to run with 3 dd´s ? That problem should be easy to solve by run in a premade group. After all there are so many dd´s out there.

If you do run in premade group´s you should have said so.

Cheers

svendf · December 2021

Succuby wrote: »

If you always have problem with fake tanks - you can always take tanks sets with you to be real tank yourself.

You do not ! You have a solution !

Do not want to tank ? Why ? Is not it to comfortable and lovely gameplay ?
(It is not, tank is nerfed to state where not a lot of players want to play it)

So why you against fake tanks - you will not get real any way, they will not go with you. And not enough of players who play tanks !
Helpless gameplay with no DPS !

Fake tanks make bad dds, bad healers and no tanks. In 98% of the time fake tanks have low to non resist and low dps, running around the dungeon. Fake roles are bad for ESO and it´s community.

Cheers

Succuby · December 2021

svendf wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

If you always have problem with fake tanks - you can always take tanks sets with you to be real tank yourself.

You do not ! You have a solution !

Do not want to tank ? Why ? Is not it to comfortable and lovely gameplay ?
(It is not, tank is nerfed to state where not a lot of players want to play it)

So why you against fake tanks - you will not get real any way, they will not go with you. And not enough of players who play tanks !
Helpless gameplay with no DPS !

Fake tanks make bad dds, bad healers and no tanks. In 98% of the time fake tanks have low to non resist and low dps, running around the dungeon. Fake roles are bad for ESO and it´s community.

Cheers

Lets make cosplay. Good players start faking their true roles as bad as possible

)) It can be fun !

A lot of thingth is bad for community, but a lot of people do it.

Some even is not concidered as bad thingth.

But they are.

Why is it bad ? Because you play like you want ? And others can not ?

When I go random dunguan i think twice go there on tank or DD, as DD i will wait 20 minutes, on tank i will start the same second i vote.

I like go as DD more.

That is a problem ! It is better to vait than go tank. Or go as fake role - because play as tank in random is so unplesant !!!

Not fake tanks not anything else.

Role itself is helpless - why can not you understand it ? If tanks would me more fun to play - you would never get any problem with no tanks or fake tanks !

And who decide good tank, good dd or good healer is some one ?

If player is so good to decide - he can pass solo i think

svendf · December 2021

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

Pre-made groups and those that walk into the dungeon will not be held to this requirement to allow them to decide their group makeup for themselves, as should always be the case.

It is the only thing I can see that Zenimax can do that could force a player queueing as a tank to have a taunt and actually use it.

I will like to add, that resist is also good thing to have have. Many fake tanks know they don´t have the resist to make a dungeon run less stressful.

Three requirements for a tank.

1. Resist
2. Taunt
3. Health

Do you have those three requirements the player are free to add whatever they want.

99% offake tanks fail on these basic things.

Succuby · December 2021

svendf wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

Pre-made groups and those that walk into the dungeon will not be held to this requirement to allow them to decide their group makeup for themselves, as should always be the case.

It is the only thing I can see that Zenimax can do that could force a player queueing as a tank to have a taunt and actually use it.

I will like to add, that resist is also good thing to have have. Many fake tanks know they don´t have the resist to make a dungeon run less stressful.

Three requirements for a tank.

1. Resist
2. Taunt
3. Health

Do you have those three requirements the player are free to add whatever they want.

99% offake tanks fail on these basic things.

https://youtu.be/Fn_eCR5gfzE

Naked vDLC dunguan run.

Just as example.

Player can stand and have all gear and skills and just do not use it the same time.

Once i get such party !

It is not a requirment !

Just thingth you want others to have - just your own tastes.

If you start make standartizations - skilled players even will not play it. Play like you want - that is what good players of this game want i think.

Some games are so simple, that skilled players do not play it ! They just cant ! It is such boring !

You want teso be such game ?

FangOfTheTwoMoons · December 2021

The sad part is, a majority of these fake tanks/healers arent all that skilled. So not only do they feel entitled to skip the line, but they dont even have the skills to carry.

Juomuuri · December 2021

We should get our own feedback thread for this issue too, as they made one for overland difficulty. This topic comes up super often, I know it's annoying, I've made a topic too once - this conversation just is super toxic from the behalf of those who don't care about the role system working as intended.

Fake DDs don't exist, unless a tank or a healer queued as a DD.

LilouAndJohn · December 2021

How about this?

Problem:

1. Damage dealers queue as healers or tanks because they get into a dungeon quicker.
2. Healers and tanks queue faster because there are few of them.
3. There are few healers and tanks because they are unattractive for different reasons.

Solution:

Fix the shortage of tanks and healers. A suggestion is that at least healers have very low status in ESO and as this thread shows they are basically frowned upon by many. Making healers and tanks more attractive is a much better way of dealing with the problem than reprogramming the selection process for random dungeons.

Succuby · December 2021

LilouAndJohn wrote: »

How about this?

Problem:

1. Damage dealers queue as healers or tanks because they get into a dungeon quicker.
2. Healers and tanks queue faster because there are few of them.
3. There are few healers and tanks because they are unattractive for different reasons.

Solution:

Fix the shortage of tanks and healers. A suggestion is that at least healers have very low status in ESO and as this thread shows they are basically frowned upon by many. Making healers and tanks more attractive is a much better way of dealing with the problem than reprogramming the selection process for random dungeons.

If tanks can atleast solo dunguans and have better gameplay and dps it would be more tanks. If more tanks and some rewardes to "no roles as tanks as example in random search" - more tanks. More tanks - less wait time.

Fakes -> party will vote - kick - get real tank.

Problem solved.

But this thingth do not work seporately.

Succuby · December 2021

By the way reprogramming will not help. People just willcome in real role and just stand destroying your game like this reprogramming do for them.

Already see this and understand such people.

Lixiviant · December 2021

The other problem is that when I'm healing, don't just stand in the red and expect me to keep you alive.

Also, no matter how great you think you are, there is a reason for using food, bringing potions and having soul gems on hand.

krachall · December 2021

Funny that I posted a solution to this problem and several people commented that it's "not even a problem so no solution is needed." Yet it continues to dominate the forums as it has for years. LOL.

The basic problem is that normal dungeons are extremely trivial for better players but the rewards are attractive enough that these players still want (need) to run them.

So the solution should address THAT. Instead of obscure, completely unnecessary skill checks (Does that guy who flagged tank have a taunt?) or game mechanics, give that player an option to run the dungeon WITHOUT having to flag tank.

Give players the option to form random groups without requiring a tank and healer. Problem solved.

Note, this does not FORCE these players into non-optimized groups, it will simply put them in a non-optimized group if an optimized group is not immediately available. If a group with a tank and healer needs DPS, the next two DPS in the queue will get placed in that group even if they flagged as not needing optimization.

- The queue is greatly reduced, if not eliminated.
- High-skilled DPS can tear through dungeons at full speed (which is VERY fun, by they way)
- Lower skilled/geared players get their optimized groups.

Win. Win. Win.

Nogawd · December 2021

Win win until you see threads pop up about long q times which would start immediately. Or even more posts about dlc's because they can't burn through them.

There would be no win because it's not an issue to begin with other than liking to complain.

Amottica · December 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

Pre-made groups and those that walk into the dungeon will not be held to this requirement to allow them to decide their group makeup for themselves, as should always be the case.

It is the only thing I can see that Zenimax can do that could force a player queueing as a tank to have a taunt and actually use it.

It could work I suppose. Some abilities already have a role included with them, but that ability would need to be frozen into place or if they take it off it starts a timer that'll eventually kick them out of the dungeon. That way it'll always be on one bar and if they don't use it the group will have a much stronger case for kicking them out for not doing their job, or the group finder will do it for them once the timer expires.

But.... I can still see it being a minor hurdle for a truly skilled speed runner, but at least you'll know they have the capacity to do their job, I guess?

Requiring an ability to be on a bar does nothing if the player is not required to use it. That is why I suggested the requirement for its use and if it is not the group is guaranteed to not kill the boss and proceed through the dungeon.

Fake tanks are the topic of this thread, not speed running.

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

That just penalizes the entire group for one person they have no control over.

The complaint put forward in this thread is suggesting the entire group is penalized when they get a fake tank. My suggestion eliminates fake tanks as they will quickly learn it no longer works.

And how are you planning to force them to use it without being intrusive? Just curious as not every fight needs a taunt for instance as whacking them all with a big AoE can sometimes be enough to do the job then you spend the time chain pulling the ranged NPCs in and immobilizing/stunning them to stay still. When must they use it? Once in the dungeon? Every single time you go into combat?

Sorry for the questions, but these are the things facing that suggestion.

Please forgive me as I have been playing ESO for less than a year so I do not know how wacking a boss with a big AoE is ever enough to get the job done. How does a group kill a boss like that?

Then again, if a group is able to kill a boss with a big AoE then it seems they would beat the timer I suggested. Having a fake tank would not be an issue at all for them. But again, I have not seen a boss die in this manner.

It's a trick on keeping aggro in fights as the NPCs kind of prioritize the first thing that hit them, then focus on the most active opponent. Taunt overrides this aggression prioritization and what I was saying was some tanks never cast a single taunt in some fights of a dungeon (The fights inbetween the boss fights) because where they get all the aggro towards them is with abilities like Unstable Wall of Elements, Talons, Pulsar, and sets that deal AoE stuff like Void Bash that pulls them all in. Taunting is more for beginners, bosses, and high priority enemies that lose aggro on the tank after they've used other methods of crowd control. (Like Lurchers in March of Sacrifices.)

Edit: This is also why there are no AoE taunts in ESO outside a specific set combo some people got crafty with. ESO tanking is not about taunting everything in sight, but instead crowd control by pulling in and holding enemies, while also keeping the couple of lethal foes in the group taunted and focused on you.

I fail to see how that trick can be effective on a boss. Without a taunt, I have seen boss agro change frequently. It seems as though their aggro table, if there actually is one, resets every few seconds.

My suggestion is specific to bosses.