The Elephant in the Dungeon: Fake Tanks & Healers.

Darrett

There are very few mechanics that can be implemented for healers, since everybody can heal to a level beyond what is necessary.

If you want healers to be necessary, self-healing capability needs to be massively reduced, and that will present all sorts of other balance issues.

Arthtur

Yeah lets make healers more important by making tanking even harder. Its so fun right now when u have 2 health scaling dots on u and 2 heavy hitting adds. /s

In the newest content most of the dots are unpurgable and scale with max hp. It doesnt hurt DDs but for tanks its... For example vRG 2 boss. Tanks arent dying to the boss or the adds. They are dying to dots... nerfing self-healing would make things only worse.

Also good healer is always welcome in the groups. "Good" is the key. Most ppl still think that healing is the only job of a healer. So later u get in dungeon a healer with olorime + hollowfang... Circle from Olorime is always under the tank, the group is 2x stamdd and there is no orbs from a healer. So whats the point of a healer in this group?

On the other side u are getting a healer with PA + SPC and who is throwing orbs. Its like a dream then.

And if u get lucky and get really good healer... its better than 3dds. But getting this healer is like hitting a jackpot.

The only thing i would like to add is more skills for support.

Facefister

Healers are (sadly) unnecessary in 4-man groups. Every 4-man content and achievement can be done without a healer. The "problem" lies within the mechanics and the utility the player has access to.

tmbrinks

Facefister wrote: »

Healers are (sadly) unnecessary in 4-man groups. Every 4-man content and achievement can be done without a healer. The "problem" lies within the mechanics and the utility the player has access to:

While I agree in principle... I would make the argument that True Genius (Stone Garden Trifecta) would be very, very, very tough w/o a healer (not impossible, but definitely much riskier than without)

Which is why, even as a healer main, I'm pretty much half healer/half dps in most runs. (Although as I've revisited some of the older content with my group, I've gone more heals just to make it easier, since the dps is so much higher now that there becomes a point of diminishing returns)

Facefister

Guard solves that problem. A MagSorc is perfect as a Guard support.

That's a dilemma though. Even a dedicated DD has access to strong healing and self-healing. How you're going to balance that? Or do you want to balance that? A guildmember of mine suggested that you could tie the amount of healing you could dish out to the summary of your regeneration stats. So your self-healing and healing doesn't scale with your max resources and power anymore.

Amottica

People seem to be putting the onus on the need for healing and doing things to make healing more important.

First of all, not every group can clear most dungeons without a healer as it is. That group of players cannot he ignored but there is normal dungeons for those that find vet to challenging.

Also, it seems the older content is easier than the newer content. It would seem an easier solution to rebalance the older content to be on par with newer content. Healers would be more important.

However, this will not solve the underlying issue as to why many tanks refuse to use the queue.

Facefister

The thing is that you can reach that threshold of not needing a healer pretty fast once you've learned about the available utilities and how to use them. And you'll also realize that most of the time with higher group dps could shorten or even bypass lethal mechanics.

Amottica wrote:

However, this will not solve the underlying issue as to why many tanks refuse to use the queue.

I also tank, and most of the times I am like 40%~50% of the group dps, and I do like 6k~10k depending on the boss...

Troodon80

tmbrinks wrote: »

While I agree in principle... I would make the argument that True Genius (Stone Garden Trifecta) would be very, very, very tough w/o a healer (not impossible, but definitely much riskier than without)

Which is why, even as a healer main, I'm pretty much half healer/half dps in most runs. (Although as I've revisited some of the older content with my group, I've gone more heals just to make it easier, since the dps is so much higher now that there becomes a point of diminishing returns)

I would instead use The Dread Cellar as an example, where last boss has multiple health-scaling and stacking DoTs which cannot be avoided or purged. Doesn't really matter outside of hard mode, but then neither is Stone Garden outside of hard mode. At least in Stone Garden you have the opportunity to avoid the DoTs, unlike The Dread Cellar.

Facefister wrote: »

I also tank, and most of the times I am like 40%~50% of the group dps, and I do like 6k~10k depending on the boss...

Same. I main tank. Got one of every class. I stopped solo queuing as a tank when I was still low CP. None of the suggestions made to date would be incentive enough to get me back into the queue as a tank. I'm definitely not the only one. Most tanks I know have zero incentive to do content outside of the groups/friends they've found.

Our only recourse as tanks (and supports in general) to get out of dungeon runs where we are doing 50%+ of the group DPS was to find groups. Alternatively, DDs are quick to say "just make a DD," which further compounds the issue because now we're in the DD queue instead of in the tank queue. If DDs are sick of fake roles, I make the same suggestion to them. DDs caused this issue in every sense. Make your own group. Join a guild. Find friends. It's not nearly as hard as people make it out to be and it requires nothing from ZOS.

Troodon80

Amottica wrote: »

People seem to be putting the onus on the need for healing and doing things to make healing more important.

First of all, not every group can clear most dungeons without a healer as it is. That group of players cannot he ignored but there is normal dungeons for those that find vet to challenging.

Also, it seems the older content is easier than the newer content. It would seem an easier solution to rebalance the older content to be on par with newer content. Healers would be more important.

However, this will not solve the underlying issue as to why many tanks refuse to use the queue.

I don't believe for even a moment that healing is the thing we, or ZOS, should be focusing on singularly. But it is a part of a greater whole, and it is something that needs to be looked at in equal measure. DDs think they can take the heal spot without negatively impacting the group because heals are not needed, and... broadly speaking, they're not wrong (depending on your definition; if they're speedrunning the dungeon and you don't like it, they it's negitive; but that's subjective and not objectively looking at whether heals are needed or not). The availability of self-heals, shields, and the HPS output is the biggest issue for healers. This is also somewhat noticeable even in the direction that other MMOs are starting to go in.



But again, it assumes this is something that needs to be fixed. Personally, I like not being tied to the healer, I like having some freedom and self-reliance. But that's just one of many opinions.

Facefister

And how you're going to fix that? Nerf all the self-healing and utility? Nerf the damage-output? Or buff the damage-output of the dungeon enemies?

Troodon80

Facefister wrote: »

And how you're going to fix that? Nerf all the self-healing and utility? Nerf the damage-output? Or buff the damage-output of the dungeon enemies?

Me? I don't think it needs to be fixed. So anything I throw out is purely hypothetical and I probably won't even agree with it as an option, merely more Devil's Advocate. Whenever I think of a suggestion, I always think of how it might impact X, Y, or Z. I don't really see a point in posting commentary which says "you could do this, but also here's all the reasons why it won't work." Would seem like a bit of a waste of your time and mine. If more people thought about their own suggestions... well, we wouldn't have these topics springing up like mushrooms.

So far as my previous post goes, ignoring whether they should or shouldn't fix anything, if they were going to fix something to do with "fake" roles, they would need to look at the whole picture and not just one very tiny part. The whole picture includes all three roles and their suitability to perform those roles, and what those roles mean.

ixthUA

Having run a plenty of dungeons as tank, i prefer 2 dd + healer rather than 3 dds. With healer, even on normal difficulty, i know dds will be healed when they need it, otherwise they die and someone has to stop to dps and revive them, until they die again. From my runs of normal dungeons, if there is no healer - there are always multiple dd deaths.

HiveMind3006

You got to laugh at these selfish 'players' who think everything is only about them.
Why are you playing an MMO, why not go play a solo game and you can run through it and not give two monkeys about anyone without consequence? There is consequence to being a Zippy, the main one being destroying other players experience and probably putting off any new player ever wanting to play the game again.
You are playing an MMO! You understand? Massively MULTIPLAYER online game, joining a GROUP- you know a TEAM so be a part of it and work with fellow players and so what if it take a few seconds extra. Oh wait! You can't do that can you coz ...well its all about you- you- you!
'Its not my job' if its not this excuse it's something similar. You are the problem and if you weren't cheating the system everyone would have a better experience. No one is asking anyone to teach anything , just show consideration. Go and make excuses for that behaviour. There isn't one. And actually your job is to be standing in front of your healer, opposite the Tank (in most situations) And knocking out DPS as best you can, it certainly isn't your job to be pretending to be the tank or healer and messing up the entire team mechanics because you are so special you don't need to follow the rules.
Not everyone is knocking out uber DPS and can run through at a million miles and hour but who give a **** huh as long as your okay! Slow down? If it were up to you the dungeon would consist of travel to and exit I mean why waste your time doing any content as it seems all you want is rewards.
Did you guys not get enough attention as kids? Coz it appears someone failed miserably at raising you with any notion of decency.
This thread proves with all the apparent 'Zippy' Apologists that you guys are the worst kind of player one could hope to get queued up with.
I can only hope the R.N.G. gods are as awful to you as you are to your fellow players.
Happy Hunting

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Veinblood1965 wrote: »

Stop it just stop it, enough with the fake this or that in dungeons lol. I started putting a nickel in a jar last year for each thread I've seen and I'm comfortably retired now from the proceeds.

Don't read it then!


As a final word on the matter to all those who complain 'not this again' etc This shows it is a problem or it just wouldn't keep coming up. I know you guys ... you know the Zippies don't want your bad behaviours highlighted time after time but as I said at the start you are the Elephant in the Dungeon and I seriously doubt I shall be the last to mention it or post about it. I hope not !