The Elephant in the Dungeon: Fake Tanks & Healers.

HiveMind3006

Okay this is one issue with the game that is becoming so frequent that I think most players seem to just accept it. There are many who believe you don't need a tank or healer in a normal dungeon and this is just not the case for more than the obvious reason. New Tanks and Healers may wish to practice their skills and are being substituted by impatient DPS classes, woe betide anyone who is grouped with 'Zippy' (who just wants to storm through the dungeon and collect his crystals and experience) if you want to learn the dungeon, do the quest or even loot some mats on the way round.
I understand the need they feel as I have 8 characters who all do their Daily Dungeon Randoms but for the love of the Gods please guys show some consideration for others. The arrogance and impatience is quite frankly disgusting.
Back to the Tanks and Healer aren't required discussion, yea you can do the majority of the non DLC's without them but that doesn't mean you should try and get round the queuing system by marking yourself as a healer or tank. A balanced group makes for a faster smoother run without a doubt. Just try some of the DLC instances with an inexperienced group and no heals and it can be a total waste of everyone's time, same applies with a fake tank or even worse but quite common at the minute both tank & heals missing.
The majority of players aren't nasty and don't want to kick people but until ZOS do something about it that's the only option we have to try and combat these players.
And that leads us to what exactly could ZOS do about this problem? I don't know if this is doable but isn't there a way to determine when a player switches class if your have the relevant skills to play as that class, i.e a Sword and Shield and at least one taunt skills on your bar for tanks and a Resto staff and heals slotted for healers? It would certainly make for a better experience for all concerned ...well except for Zippy, coz' unfortunately she/he is going to have to queue a little longer.
Your thoughts please.

heartburnkid

No. The game, and MMOs in general were not created so everyone plays to make ‘Your’ individual experience the way you want. That is why you have the option to either pre make a group/or deal with what you get blind queing. It’s not anyones duty to teach the game or slow down just to make ‘You’ feel better. That is why there are forums, discussions online that teach.

I say ‘You’ in quoted not as in you the op, just a general ‘you’ as in anyone that thinks that way.

Amottica

Certainly the game could be designed to make sure a player has a taunt if they are queues as a tank or heal if they’re queued for heals. However, I have seen others point out nothing can make them use the taunt or even keep I slotted.

I suggest doing what I do. I only run with my guild after I vented in guild chat about a bad GF group. They noted the problem I experienced is one that doesn’t happen when running with them.

Anyhow, just my thoughts. Good luck.

SSX_Gryphon

It's more a symptom of people than it is the game. If someone wants something and they want it quickly, they'll take the quickest route. Whatever fix is implemented will only last as long as it takes for somebody impatient to figure a way around it.

Parasaurolophus

1. Play in dungeons without a healer has long been the norm, even on vet.dlc. Only two dungeons, only in hard mode, really require a healer in the party - this is Garden and Cellar. And these are the most difficult dungeons that the pugs cannot complete.

2. The more DD`s, the easier it is to complete the normal dungeon. Any dungeon on normal difficulty, even dlc, can be soloed. How fast and comfortable going through a dungeon, for a beginner, can be worse than taking a long time to complete with the right roles?

It is not the players' fault that normal dungeons are faster and more comfortable if there is one rusher in the group. Stop blaming players for bad game design.

3. Normal dungeons do not teach anything, as veteran dungeons are very different in their difficulty.

Mordux

The normal content is not hard. The DLC dungeons on normal included. You don't need to stay at 100% health the whole run.

If the "fake tank" can:

1. hold aggro and 2. survie, then it's as real tank as you need it to be for that content. Let people play the game as they like.

With that said I find it very disrespectful if you que as tank and dont even have a taunt on the bar

Lady_Galadhiel

There is no problem and I say this as a healer main,I prefer to have 3 dd in my group rather than a tank in a normal dungeon.
What would solve the ''issue'' would be to implement a solo queue for random normal,like this 99% of the people who like to have a quick run would do it alone.

Mushroomancer

Oh, is it that time of the week already?

As plenty of people have already said, countless times about this "issue", why would "Zippy" have to suffer through 30-45 minutes queues, just so you can learn a dungeon's mechanics or take your sweet time reading through the quest and looting everything that isn't bolted down to the floor?

First of all, and this is gonna sound really elitist, random normals are not the place to learn or iron out your dungeon mechs, veteran is pretty much the only place where that matters.
And yes, I do get what you are saying when talking about some DLC dungeons being a chore to get through in normal with fake healers/tanks, but what makes you think that having people with the proper role is gonna make it go much smoother?
You could just as easily get a healer that just spams regeneration, or a tank that overtaunts the boss (and yes, those are both things I've seen "real" healers and tanks do, many times). Plus, I think I can count the dungeons that are actually annoying without real healers or tanks on my fingertips (really, the only ones that come to mind are Moongrave Fane, LoM and DoM, maybe Scalecaller).
Also, and I cannot stress this enough, do you, or any people that want to take their time with the dungeon, even mention that they want to go through it at their pace? I swear, it's like you think people can read your mind through a computer screen. You don't get to shut up through the dungeon and then get mad at the end because "Zippy" ruined your experience. Then again, if you weren't the only one upset, that desperate votekick before the last boss would have probably gone through.

And in regards to the "role check" you're proposing, that would mean tanks that use double ice staves would not be counted as tanks, the same would go for stamina healers. As uncommon as those are, a role check would just limit the already quite limited freedom we have with roles.

I'm sorry if this sounded harsh, but as someone that has been both you and "Zippy", I think this is a non-issue, an annoyance at best. You're free to disagree of course, but I don't think ZOS should really enforce any kind of role standards, just so people stop complaining about fake healers and tanks. As I have mentioned in another similar thread, I think the best thing they can do is make a separate, solo "story mode" or "training" queue that people can join and use to go through the dungeon at their pace, learning the mechanics and enjoying the quest.

Succuby

Bad sugestion will not help, because even good players wil abuse rules if they will hardly dislike it.

First of all you will learn nothing on normal.

Second - if as a tank i get as example party with 30 k total dps, where 7k is mine dps as a tank - and no mechanics they even try to make - i just leave with out any comments. If you dislike something - do the same.

If people do not even do anything, it is there right. Just go other random.

Game gives no DPS to tank in this game - tanks are helpless.

If some one complain about "bad fake tanks" - i am more sure fake tank is ok, all is about bad DPS in party.

I do not think with even 2 normal DDs any dunguan can be a problem.

But with 20k group DPS - vet dunguan can be a problem. Not only for fake tank, but for real tank too. Not because it is tanks problem - fake DPS players may be a real problem.

Elsonso

HiveMind3006 wrote: »

Okay this is one issue with the game that is becoming so frequent that I think most players seem to just accept it. There are many who believe you don't need a tank or healer in a normal dungeon and this is just not the case for more than the obvious reason. New Tanks and Healers may wish to practice their skills...

Learning to tank and heal is a good thought, but a PUG isn't going to be a good place to learn. The player will not get any good, trustworthy feedback. The chances of being randomly grouped up with someone who knows what they are talking about is vanishingly small.

The issues with "Zippy the Speed Runner" are mainly on ZOS. No amount of social influence, shaming, suggestions, requests, threats, or demands will stop Zippy from completing the appointed rounds as fast as possible. ZOS has to thwart those things with dungeon design. The end result is that the dungeons take longer. That brings out other problems, some of which are less obvious than others.

In the end, what ZOS has done is start to reinforce the speed runners and, for certain dungeons, will move everyone to the speed runner when the dungeon design demands that everyone be there. I am not sure this was the wisest solution, but it does sound like a solution.

HiveMind3006 wrote: »

The majority of players aren't nasty and don't want to kick people but until ZOS do something about it that's the only option we have to try and combat these players.

The kick method of social re-programming does not work.

I realize that this is the Monday Fake Role thread, but it did touch on speed runs and role removal, so I thought I would just reply to that. And... no... ZOS should not be enforcing role criteria.

Aardappelboom

There's no simple solution because everyone has more or less legit reasons to do the things they do. I don't agree on fake tanks and healers but there's always a reason why people do this. I am very much against all forms of blocking players by defining specific skills or adding restrictions. With all the options available to players you should be able to experiment with them, within the roles you want, however you want. I have been experimenting a lot and loved it, even if some things were less effective than others.

You could easily give more power to groups and players by giving an overview to players during ready check. You could even expand by allowing "preferences" that are visible (for example: "speed run") so you as a player can decide if you want to join the group or wait out for the next one. All this is at risk of longer queue times.

The thing is, some people don't mind, others do, there's no right way. I honestly don't mind a fake tank or healer if the dungeon goes smoothly, if I need specific gear I just want to go through the dungeon and get it. When I want to do the quests I go solo but that's personal preference.

The only thing I really want is acceptable queue times, complicating matchmaking often has longer queue times as a result but it can help for some to achieve a more rewarding experience. I honestly don't mind at this point, I can solo dungeons, I have a guild to find a group and I do PUGS all the time. I really just wanted to mention that restrictions are not the way to go imo.

Zezin

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

There is no problem and I say this as a healer main,I prefer to have 3 dd in my group rather than a tank in a normal dungeon.
What would solve the ''issue'' would be to implement a solo queue for random normal,like this 99% of the people who like to have a quick run would do it alone.

This ^^^^ I'm tired of people complaining. The reason I fake tank(holding aggro and surviving just fine even in nDLC) is precisely because I don't need a group to do normal dungeons.

Succuby

If you always have problem with fake tanks - you can always take tanks sets with you to be real tank yourself.

You do not ! You have a solution !

Do not want to tank ? Why ? Is not it to comfortable and lovely gameplay ?
(It is not, tank is nerfed to state where not a lot of players want to play it)

So why you against fake tanks - you will not get real any way, they will not go with you. And not enough of players who play tanks !
Helpless gameplay with no DPS !

HiveMind3006

Mushroomancer wrote: »

, I think the best thing they can do is make a separate, solo "story mode" or "training" queue that people can join and use to go through the dungeon at their pace, learning the mechanics and enjoying the quest.

Now there's a great idea! Yea this is as much about finding solutions as it is about Zippy complaining about wasting time on trash mobs or looting etc, and also that why I said is it doable to have such a filter. Nothing is going to 100% suit everyone. Thanks for the advice/input and no not at all harsh.

Elsonso

HiveMind3006 wrote: »

Mushroomancer wrote: »

, I think the best thing they can do is make a separate, solo "story mode" or "training" queue that people can join and use to go through the dungeon at their pace, learning the mechanics and enjoying the quest.

Now there's a great idea! Yea this is as much about finding solutions as it is about Zippy complaining about wasting time on trash mobs or looting etc, and also that why I said is it doable to have such a filter. Nothing is going to 100% suit everyone. Thanks for the advice/input and no not at all harsh.

This is already in the game, though. Well... except for "solo mode", which is "group mode". It is just not in the Dungeon Finder. Solo dungeon activities can be accessed by simply walking into the dungeon, but those are horrible for tank and healer training. Group slow mode, training mode, and story mode can be done by creating a group that wants to do that. It is best to do it that way, anyway, if that is the experience you want.

HiveMind3006

heartburnkid wrote: »

No. The game, and MMOs in general were not created so everyone plays to make ‘Your’ individual experience the way you want. That is why you have the option to either pre make a group/or deal with what you get blind queing. It’s not anyones duty to teach the game or slow down just to make ‘You’ feel better. That is why there are forums, discussions online that teach.

I say ‘You’ in quoted not as in you the op, just a general ‘you’ as in anyone that thinks that way.

No! Not at all, if this was the case then you wouldn't have role specific queues, if it wasn't what ZOS intended. Not about me or anyone feeling better its about one or two players not wanting to do the dungeon for what it is and just farming it for themselves as fast as they can and sod the rest of the group. I don't want taught anything from pug members its about learning the instance. Lots of reasons, but no we should all run to keep up with you coz you just want the crystals. Okay and by you I don't mean you etc etc lol

luen79rwb17_ESO

The real elephant in the room is the fact that the vast majority of PUGs see dungeon content as a chore and want to do it as fast as possible to get over it quickly. That's the issue the developer should be addressing in the first place.

Elsonso

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The real elephant in the room is the fact that the vast majority of PUGs see dungeon content as a chore and want to do it as fast as possible to get over it quickly. That's the issue the developer should be addressing in the first place.

The dungeons, or the dungeon run, contains a reward the player wants. The only feasible way to "address" the issue is to just give the player whatever they want, either in a single dungeon run, or outside of the dungeon. This makes the dungeon runs "for fun" and not "a chore". A less optimal solution is to just keep adding new dungeons to the game, which ZOS is doing. In this way, at least the "chore" has new scenery every so often.

Right now, these reward runs (aka "chores") are fueling the dungeon finder. If you remove the people running dungeons as a "chore", the next problem that needs to be addressed is that no one can run PUG dungeons anymore because the dungeon finder takes too long to put together a group.

BlueRaven

Bottom line is that many players only care about themselves.

seldomseenkd

BlueRaven wrote: »

Bottom line is that many players only care about themselves.

I agree. Which is why you design a system that utilises this reality rather than grouping players with conflicting objectives and hoping they will all get along.

Succuby

Why a lot if players have no problem with this ?

But we have another ... .

Hawco10

As a healer, I like nothing better than 3 dd’s. Goes way faster and smoother.
There are plenty of guilds around where tanks etc can group up and learn the mechanics of a specific dungeon. YouTube too. Joining a random group and going “Hmm, what should I do here ?” Is not a good idea.

DestroyerPewnack

There should be a forum rule against bringing up topics that have already been discussed, at length, without adding anything new. This is getting ridiculous.

Xebov

HiveMind3006 wrote: »

I don't know if this is doable but isn't there a way to determine when a player switches class if your have the relevant skills to play as that class, i.e a Sword and Shield and at least one taunt skills on your bar for tanks and a Resto staff and heals slotted for healers?

I see 2 problems with this:

1.) You would limit real tanks and healers by practically enforcing how they have to play. Which limites the possibilities and removes Off roles. If you are an experienced tank you can basically tank certain dungeons with a 2 handed sword and the range taunt, which your option would not see as valid.

2.) You can freely switch gear and skills whenever you like so your way would not solve anything.


In general iam not a big fan of limitations here. Fake roles are something created by DDs and i find it unfair that real tanks and healers should be limited in their builds just to sovle this issue because we obviously didnt create it.

Veinblood1965

Stop it just stop it, enough with the fake this or that in dungeons lol. I started putting a nickel in a jar last year for each thread I've seen and I'm comfortably retired now from the proceeds.

AJones43865

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

Stop it just stop it, enough with the fake this or that in dungeons lol. I started putting a nickel in a jar last year for each thread I've seen and I'm comfortably retired now from the proceeds.

I agree. It sucks to get a "fake" or weak tank or healer, but we deal with it and move on. In all but the hardest content the other three members should be able to pick up the slack from the newbie or person trying to skill level or whatever is making them underperform.

Fake roles in dungeons is not a significant issue. Now server performance on the other hand, that is a major issue that needs attention years ago and has yet to happen.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

If you are going to make the 10,000th fake tank thread, maybe dont use a block of text.

The issue of fake tanks and healers in normal dungeons is probably the most overstated issue on the forums. It barely amounts to a problem.

Nogawd

4 dps will smoke the traditional group every single time in a normal.

Where did you get your "without a doubt" information?

Dojohoda

Make a tank, make a healer and become part of the solution.

KaGaOri

Will make wild uneducated guess here:

1) people saying "fake roles in normal dungeons are not a problem and we don't understand why there's n-th thread about it" have 1000+ cp, bunch of fully leveled characters, at least 1 year experience in game and (possibly) previous experience from other mmo games.

2) people making these threads / writing in these threads have much less cp (if any), are still leveling their characters, are newer to game, (possibly) ESO being their first mmo ever.

It's easy to say it isn't a problem if it doesn't impact you since you can solo all of the mentioned content and rest of group is just icing on the cake to make it faster. It will continue to be problem for less experienced players and players with low level characters who simply can't keep up no matter how much they try. It will keep poping up on the forums as long as ZOS will encourage high-end players to run low-end content like a treadmill.

Some ideas:
- make normal base game dungeons no cp zone (like BGs)
- gradually scale the reward down in normal dungeons based on how much character outleveles them starting at lvl 50 / 160 cp
- put better reward in harder content (run 1x hard dungeon vs run 5x easy dungeon = same number of crystals)
- make PvP alternative for getting gear / transmutes, so PvP players aren't forced to do content they detest over and over

Xebov

KaGaOri wrote: »

Will make wild uneducated guess here:

1) people saying "fake roles in normal dungeons are not a problem and we don't understand why there's n-th thread about it" have 1000+ cp, bunch of fully leveled characters, at least 1 year experience in game and (possibly) previous experience from other mmo games.

2) people making these threads / writing in these threads have much less cp (if any), are still leveling their characters, are newer to game, (possibly) ESO being their first mmo ever.

It's easy to say it isn't a problem if it doesn't impact you since you can solo all of the mentioned content and rest of group is just icing on the cake to make it faster. It will continue to be problem for less experienced players and players with low level characters who simply can't keep up no matter how much they try. It will keep poping up on the forums as long as ZOS will encourage high-end players to run low-end content like a treadmill.

Some ideas:
- make normal base game dungeons no cp zone (like BGs)
- gradually scale the reward down in normal dungeons based on how much character outleveles them starting at lvl 50 / 160 cp
- put better reward in harder content (run 1x hard dungeon vs run 5x easy dungeon = same number of crystals)
- make PvP alternative for getting gear / transmutes, so PvP players aren't forced to do content they detest over and over

These threads add nothing new to the table and also dont bring any actual solutions with it that dont have huge sideffects.

As a tank player i can tell you that many of the healers i get are fake healers and a good number of them are actual low level players having 200 or 500CP or PvP players. Half of them dont deal any damage and just want to be carried, but they all believe that healers are not needed. As a tank i got used to it. I have to get used to it because the one who gets the blame is me, not the fake guy because ppl dont have any level of perception.

If you suggets ppl strugling with fakers to use group kick or leave and requeue or premake groups they dont like it or dont use it.

All ppl do here is posting "ideas" how to solve it.
Ive seen role locks and gear limitations that would also effect real healers and real tanks, but since DDs are selfcentered they never recognize it.
Ive seen suggestions reducing normal random or normal dungeon rewards without ppl realizing that these rewards are the major reason pug groups even come into existence.
Ive seen suggestions on increasing vet rewards without realizing that inexperienced players will start jumping into vet for the better reards. Something you can already see on pledges.

In the end everyone in these threads complains about fake tanks and healers, but noone wants to fill the roles and noone cares about the roles. Everyone just wants a real tank and real healer coupled with low queue times and noone cares how it could be done because everyone is selfcentered around their "problem" and these threads will not change anything about it. Thats also visible when talking about bad/fake dds that are a reason fewer tanks queue, which gets instantly shut down and denied.