The Elephant in the Dungeon: Fake Tanks & Healers.

Xebov

KaGaOri wrote: »

The bad (or fake) dd problem is caused by big part by novice players getting into groups where no one heals or tanks, but everyone runs while high cp teammate kills everything. They never had to do damage in dungeon, so they don't. And it won't magically change if they get into harder content. Plus they will blame everyone else for failed runs - they were fine in all previous content, so it can't be their fault, but the group's.

Bad/Fake DDs where a thing years ago before ppl started to widespread see fake tanks/healers as a problem. I frequently have to drop groups that dont deal dps and frequently i see players up to CP2000 as dds.

Succuby

It is not really a big problem if tank or heal are fakes.

I can swap tank/heal/dd - no problem.

But when this 3 other members are just useless - can not heal/tank and DD.

No HPS, no DPS, nothing - it is not a fake tanks fault. It is fake party already.

And i hope if tank get such group - he just go away, or he get tons of pain

As example how do you name people in veteran dls dunguan, that do 2 k dps, do not heal and can not even bash when you ask about it ?

Once i get 3 people like this.

Not even once ... a lot of times in summ.

digitaldolly

I heal and ive gotten used to the fact if i am joining a queue there's a chance the other 3 will all be dps.
It is only a pain in certain dungeons where a tank is needed but i will be happy if one of the 3 dps can hold agro or at least take the boss off of me once in awhile, i am super squishy and would rather not have to heal the group plus avoid getting smacked by the boss lol.

ixthUA

It usually takes 5 min to see if group can deal enough damage to

digitaldolly wrote: »

I heal and ive gotten used to the fact if i am joining a queue there's a chance the other 3 will all be dps.
It is only a pain in certain dungeons where a tank is needed but i will be happy if one of the 3 dps can hold agro or at least take the boss off of me once in awhile, i am super squishy and would rather not have to heal the group plus avoid getting smacked by the boss lol.

On veteran difficulty fake tanks are rare, and base game dungeons are easy. There are some 1-shot mechanics, but they are avoidable. Fake tank/healer crowd is mostly on normal difficulty, as it is the fastest way to farm transmutes.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Maybe just remove the role requirement for normal randoms? Solves everything at once

Succuby

When player can take all 3 roles like before i like that solution too.

And for those who can do nothing - no role.

If 1 with no role per random it is exepteble.

When all 3 - its god damn it hell.

Hamiltonmath

When you say that the "real" healers and "real" tanks are not getting into queues because of the fake ones, that's where you lost me.

You'd be REALLY mad at me then, since I "fake" tank (20k health WITH a taunt) veterans (but definitely not DLC).

Succuby

Hamiltonmath wrote: »

When you say that the "real" healers and "real" tanks are not getting into queues because of the fake ones, that's where you lost me.

You'd be REALLY mad at me then, since I "fake" tank (20k health WITH a taunt) veterans (but definitely not DLC).

I think he think do not get into queues with him

Tank get party the same time he press button. I do not think he really think that real tanks can not get party because of fakes queues. But if he do ... it us really funny moment.

Zezin

Sailor_Palutena wrote: »

I find funny how people goes to random dungeons already equipped with that Ring that keeps you from being healed by someone else. As a healer it is very annoying for me, but I can understand the person.

I budget tank(hold aggro and survive) regularly and it's safer to use pale order even in groups because you never know if the healer is a dd, that's why I ask at the entrance if the healer is actually healing before I change it to something else, if I can get away with doing more damage with some other mythic or a monster helm then I'll choose that every time.

Amottica

ixthUA wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

I just realized that faking role is not a problem, but an advantage that majority loves: they can slot a taunt or heal, skip queue and complete the dungeon in 10 minutes. Therefore they will be strongly against anything that removes this advantage.

I expect a fake tank or healer is one that does not have a taunt or a heal that heals others. That is what makes them fake.

If it is a matter that they are taunting or healing and people just think they should have a different build then that is just personal taste and should be rectified by forming one's own group.

I've seen many "tanks" with taunt who repeatedly die from 1 hit, or keep kiting bosses all over area.

They are probably dying to a telegraphed or charged heavy attack where the game is basically telling them they need to block or dodge roll or get the heck out of the area. There is such a thing as a bad tank.

I have seen a CP 10 tank clear vet CoH II in sub 50 gear and no die. They barely had 20k health. So there is no excuse in most dungeons.

mickeyx

Queued up for random yesterday. Ended up in march of sacrifice. Fake tank and heals. Died at very first boss where you have to separate all the three boss and avoid overlapping. Can't do without a tank. Everyone dies at least three times. Fake tank quit while spouting obscenity at the group. Fun times.

Facefister

Succuby wrote: »

It is not really a big problem if tank or heal are fakes.

I can swap tank/heal/dd - no problem.

But when this 3 other members are just useless - can not heal/tank and DD.

No HPS, no DPS, nothing - it is not a fake tanks fault. It is fake party already.

And i hope if tank get such group - he just go away, or he get tons of pain

As example how do you name people in veteran dls dunguan, that do 2 k dps, do not heal and can not even bash when you ask about it ?

Once i get 3 people like this.

Not even once ... a lot of times in summ.

Dungeon* it's called dungeon... and DLC, not dls

Sorry I had to, those typos were too glaring and I've read them too often in your posts.

Sallymen

We should talk about fake CP600+ fake DPS that only light and heavy attack, cannot interrupt, and do less than 20k DPS that queue for vet dlc dungeons.

mickeyx

Sallymen wrote: »

We should talk about fake CP600+ fake DPS that only light and heavy attack, cannot interrupt, and do less than 20k DPS that queue for vet dlc dungeons.

You will see lot more of those now thanks to the double xp event that's going on. People are just grinding skyreach like crazy to get CP levels and then end up with knowing nothing about their class.

zaria

mickeyx wrote: »

Queued up for random yesterday. Ended up in march of sacrifice. Fake tank and heals. Died at very first boss where you have to separate all the three boss and avoid overlapping. Can't do without a tank. Everyone dies at least three times. Fake tank quit while spouting obscenity at the group. Fun times.

Did that last week, granted this was an guild group so we figured it out. Having to dodge the tank and interrupt the archer and stay out of the mages way if an magic user it went down. Same on last boss in the cauldron today. Wiped some times until we figured it out.

ForeverJenn

This is what happens when a majority of the game (casuals) constantly complains that the game is too hard. The system gets watered down so much that support is no longer required. No tank is gonna learn mechanics when they have to burn their stamina just to keep up with charging dps. No healer is gonna learn to heal when half the dps use pale order ring or play vampire cause they think it looks cool.

Why would real tanks and real healers want to join a queue where there's a chance that dps chooses a long dlc dungeon like LoM and then does 16k group dps?

The problem isn't the fake tanks and healers. It's the lack of real ones.

Maybe the alternative is to queue for veterans. I don't see this often there. But unless you can pull more dps than 40k, please don't. 😆

Auztinito

ForeverJenn wrote: »

This is what happens when a majority of the game (casuals) constantly complains that the game is too hard. The system gets watered down so much that support is no longer required. No tank is gonna learn mechanics when they have to burn their stamina just to keep up with charging dps. No healer is gonna learn to heal when half the dps use pale order ring or play vampire cause they think it looks cool.

Why would real tanks and real healers want to join a queue where there's a chance that dps chooses a long dlc dungeon like LoM and then does 16k group dps?

The problem isn't the fake tanks and healers. It's the lack of real ones.

Maybe the alternative is to queue for veterans. I don't see this often there. But unless you can pull more dps than 40k, please don't. 😆

No. This is what happens when you allow hardcore players dictate all forms of content besides overland. This what happens when you let 20% of the player base dictate over the community. This is what happens when you let a small “skill gap” from things like weaving literally explode from a relatively small amount of dps (probably 5%) to a large whopping 20%. If nothing is done, we’ll see that 20% become 30 then 40 and so on. When that happens, you start seeing this game’s population whither quickly.

Auztinito

Sallymen wrote: »

We should talk about fake CP600+ fake DPS that only light and heavy attack, cannot interrupt, and do less than 20k DPS that queue for vet dlc dungeons.

We really should be talking about the player creep that allows players to completely obliterate past 15k. We should really be talking about the power creep where 20% of players are practically the reason for crappy mechanics to boss fights like random 1 shot mechanics and forced group mechanics.

Rudrani

@HiveMind3006

I think ESO is a game you CAN use "activity finder" for, but really shouldnt (or at least shouldnt complain about what you usually get when you do)

Group with people you have some sort of semi-consitant relationship with and you can make the game experience much more an experience that you like.

MMO really is a social affair, and we really do need to get out of our shells, etc. and make friends and relationships to make the game more like what we want. Things in the game are done with other people, so we need to put in effort to find "other people" that we like.

Amottica

Rudrani wrote: »

@HiveMind3006

I think ESO is a game you CAN use "activity finder" for, but really shouldnt (or at least shouldnt complain about what you usually get when you do)

Group with people you have some sort of semi-consitant relationship with and you can make the game experience much more an experience that you like.

MMO really is a social affair, and we really do need to get out of our shells, etc. and make friends and relationships to make the game more like what we want. Things in the game are done with other people, so we need to put in effort to find "other people" that we like.

The same can be said of other MMORPGs. I remember one group I got in a different game where the tank would grab and tank only one target and it would be the weakest one. DPS in random groups often single target focused the strongest in a group which is the opposite of what is done in a skilled group.

It is always better running with familiar players, even not so familiar when they are part of a decent guild.

Xebov

Auztinito wrote: »

Sallymen wrote: »

We should talk about fake CP600+ fake DPS that only light and heavy attack, cannot interrupt, and do less than 20k DPS that queue for vet dlc dungeons.

We really should be talking about the player creep that allows players to completely obliterate past 15k. We should really be talking about the power creep where 20% of players are practically the reason for crappy mechanics to boss fights like random 1 shot mechanics and forced group mechanics.

Random one shot mechanics exist in the very first dungeons players are visiting already sicne the beginning of the game.

Amottica

Xebov wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

Sallymen wrote: »

We should talk about fake CP600+ fake DPS that only light and heavy attack, cannot interrupt, and do less than 20k DPS that queue for vet dlc dungeons.

We really should be talking about the player creep that allows players to completely obliterate past 15k. We should really be talking about the power creep where 20% of players are practically the reason for crappy mechanics to boss fights like random 1 shot mechanics and forced group mechanics.

Random one shot mechanics exist in the very first dungeons players are visiting already sicne the beginning of the game.

While I have not clear all the content in this game as I am still fairly new, I have not seen a one-shot mechanics that could not be avoided. Do not mess up and it is fine.

etchedpixels

Amottica wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

Sallymen wrote: »

We should talk about fake CP600+ fake DPS that only light and heavy attack, cannot interrupt, and do less than 20k DPS that queue for vet dlc dungeons.

We really should be talking about the player creep that allows players to completely obliterate past 15k. We should really be talking about the power creep where 20% of players are practically the reason for crappy mechanics to boss fights like random 1 shot mechanics and forced group mechanics.

Random one shot mechanics exist in the very first dungeons players are visiting already sicne the beginning of the game.

While I have not clear all the content in this game as I am still fairly new, I have not seen a one-shot mechanics that could not be avoided. Do not mess up and it is fine.

The earlier base dungeons don't have any one shot mechanics on normal I can think of unless you count falling off a cliff. On vet they do - FG1 has a roll out of the blast one shot, WS1 has the same mechanic and by TI it's up to the slightly more complicated roll out, run back in mechanic. On normal though none of these actually hurt enough to kill, just to require a heal up before you get it again a long time later.

Lag is more the problem - people die regularly in the CoH II roll out of the circles boss to lag spikes. I died twice yesterday to "block didn't feel like happening" one shots in vLoM. (Don't get me wrong I died more than that to getting stuff wrong )

There are very few that can't be avoided if the game is working properly without lag, but that has been a bit lacking of late. Even then there are a few "the random number generator was just evil" bad luck cases where you pretty much can't avoid someone dying.

Amottica

etchedpixels wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

Sallymen wrote: »

We should talk about fake CP600+ fake DPS that only light and heavy attack, cannot interrupt, and do less than 20k DPS that queue for vet dlc dungeons.

We really should be talking about the player creep that allows players to completely obliterate past 15k. We should really be talking about the power creep where 20% of players are practically the reason for crappy mechanics to boss fights like random 1 shot mechanics and forced group mechanics.

Random one shot mechanics exist in the very first dungeons players are visiting already sicne the beginning of the game.

While I have not clear all the content in this game as I am still fairly new, I have not seen a one-shot mechanics that could not be avoided. Do not mess up and it is fine.

The earlier base dungeons don't have any one shot mechanics on normal I can think of unless you count falling off a cliff. On vet they do - FG1 has a roll out of the blast one shot, WS1 has the same mechanic and by TI it's up to the slightly more complicated roll out, run back in mechanic. On normal though none of these actually hurt enough to kill, just to require a heal up before you get it again a long time later.

Lag is more the problem - people die regularly in the CoH II roll out of the circles boss to lag spikes. I died twice yesterday to "block didn't feel like happening" one shots in vLoM. (Don't get me wrong I died more than that to getting stuff wrong )

There are very few that can't be avoided if the game is working properly without lag, but that has been a bit lacking of late. Even then there are a few "the random number generator was just evil" bad luck cases where you pretty much can't avoid someone dying.

I think many if not most posting in this thread understand the non-DLC dungeon mechanics are fairly light.

Not sure about the lag though since I have not experienced lag in any of the dungeons. Though I will note I have seen players die to the same thing over and over again but it does not seem to be lag as their attacks and movement seem fine. I just wonder they do not try fighting at range after a couple of deaths in melee range but then again they may have some local issue. Regardless, they are why I never queue with less than three guildmates.

Ezhh

Arkew wrote: »

Undaunted mender (healer): increase healing done by 20 %, (major mending) and all regeneration buff stay 50 % more, all damage done is reduced by 95 %(except funnel health because heal are based on damage done).

Undaunted Ironclad (tank):increase armor and max hp by 10 %, all defensive buff stay 50 % more, all heal (except self heal) are reduced by 90 %, all damage done are reduced by 95 %.

If you want more real tanks and healers, don't suggest making us more unable to compensate for inexperienced/bad DDs. While it's easy to say a bad/fake support can make a dungeon unpleasant for DDs, poor DDs can and frequently do make dungeons unpleasant for real supports as well - it works both ways. This is a big reason many support players don't queue into randoms.

For a specific example: When I heal random normals I often do as much or more dps than both DDs while healing everyone. Me being able to contribute to the damage makes such groups tolerable, and keeps me doing at least occasional queues as an actual real healer. If you reduce my damage, I am out, and there is one less actual support player in the dungeon queue.

Any real fix likely needs to be in the form of making the support experience in dungeons more rewarding (and I don't mean by giving support players more actual rewards for a completion). Get enough real support players and there'd be less and less to gain by faking it.

sunshineflame

Fake DPS is a way bigger problem

FrancisCrawford

Hamiltonmath wrote: »

When you say that the "real" healers and "real" tanks are not getting into queues because of the fake ones, that's where you lost me.

You'd be REALLY mad at me then, since I "fake" tank (20k health WITH a taunt) veterans (but definitely not DLC).

Do you queue for randoms that way?

Pixel_Zealot

"HiveMind3006 wrote: »

"... The arrogance and impatience is quite frankly disgusting...

I cannot impress how much I agree with this. I've had a few fake tanks and healers recently in normal randoms and the complete disregard for fellow players; the inconsiderate, selfish behavior is quite frankly disgusting.

Just because you can kind of scrape by without a healer, i.e. everyone dies to boss but the 1026CP zippy bow "healer" can take boss on alone is so much fun for the whole family. One high CP does the whole dungeon while the rest of the team follow and loot the dead bodies like a bunch of good-little-duckies. That's not how a dungeon is supposed to work.

Plus! There should be more mechanics for tanks and healers. I understand that Zos wants to raise the floor and drop the ceiling, but right now there are 0 mechanics for tanks and healers inside dungeons. Dodge the red and attack the mobs, THAT'S IT.

For tanks: Where's the crowd control requirements for tank?, i.e.a mechanic that requires all mobs to be on a specific platform or everyone wipes. Or potential loss of aggro?, i.e. the more damage you do, the more aggro you pull so tank has to keep his aggro up instead of just hitting frost unstable wall of elements and then just standing there.

Healers: Where's the burst healing?, i.e. a mechanic that requires burst heal because tank's about to take major damage, and if he dies the damage will jump onto the next guy on the aggro list, wiping the whole team if healer fails. or Boss stealing heals, i.e. a phase in the boss fight if the healer heals with staff abilities they actually heal boss for a short while.

There are so many examples of fun and engaging mechanics that actually put a requirement on roles like tanking and healing that Zos has completely neglected. Why? I don't think it's due to laziness but I think they're afraid of adding mechanics in low level dungeons. Their trials have amazing mechanics, but they purposely avoid putting them in low level dungeons as they're afraid it'll be too difficult for newer players.

I SAY NAY!

Mechanics are a inherent part of the dungeon experience, and you should introduce low-levels players to them as soon as possible. That would let lower level players begin to understand the complexity of (albeit easy) mechanics (and indirectly making those roles more fun) as well as nudging users to not queue as fake tanks/healers.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

We've had to remove a few non-constructive and baiting comments. Please remember that while it’s alright to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable on our forums.

Troodon80

Pixel_Zealot wrote: »

Healers: Where's the burst healing?, i.e. a mechanic that requires burst heal because tank's about to take major damage, and if he dies the damage will jump onto the next guy on the aggro list, wiping the whole team if healer fails. or Boss stealing heals, i.e. a phase in the boss fight if the healer heals with staff abilities they actually heal boss for a short while.

Part of the problem, I believe, is this. Healers in the game feel unneeded. You constantly get posts which say things like "I don't fake-tank, I only fake-heal because they're not required anyway." You mention burst healing, but almost every heal ability is a burst heal if it's not a heal over time (HoT). Templar's Breath of Life, Warden's (cone) Mushrooms, Combat Prayer, etc. It's pretty easy to get 30-50k raw HPS in a dungeon, the vast majority of which will be "overheal," and in trials it's not uncommon for both healers to be pulling well over 100k collectively, and anything up to 200k-300k group HPS. This level of healing is absolutely unnecessary even for the hardest content in the game (see some groups going almost full vampire toggle for Godslayer, meaning they can't be healed by external sources).

You see other MMOs where a burst heals says something like "single target, restores 100% health, can only be used once every 75 seconds." That's your emergency heal which is usually used on a tank after a specific tank-buster.

But damage and healing and cooldowns don't work like they do in other MMOs. Outside of a few, very specific instances, there's little which puts stress on healers. vKA hard mode, Frozen Tombs in Sunspire/Lokkestiiz hard mode, Baneful Mark in Cloudrest with a high health tank (while also dealing with Flare, etc.). Two of those apply healing debuffs. Two of them are veteran hard modes. All three of them are trials. Even in the hardest content, the level of healing you could output is overkill for the task at hand. So you balance that between healing, buffing/debuffing, and doing damage; this also applies to other MMOs, where if you're not healing you should be doing damage.

For normal... none of the mechanics punish enough to care. If they did punish groups, wiping them, for example, we would have low levels complaining that they couldn't finish the content. Which shouldn't be the case. How does one reconcile the difference between normal and veteran hard modes? Skill levels differ so widely that you can't... not really.

First of all, the availability of self-heals and shields would need to be reduced/nerfed, and overall heals would need to be nerfed to make them feel more impactful. I can already tell you that this suggestion wouldn't be liked by the community.

Then we have PvP... I'm not even going to begin to touch on that topic. And then you realise there's no good way to really balance all of it.

Plus! There should be more mechanics for tanks and healers.

I partially agree and disagree. Whenever a mechanic is needed to be played, it's always the tank or healer who has to play it. If a mechanic can be foisted onto a support role and allow DDs to parse like monkeys, that's how it will go. I think there should be more mechanics in general in dungeons, but those are mechanics which should be played by everyone. Stack mechanics, anti-stack mechanics, split and block mechanics, go-stand-on-the-four-pads-around-the-room style mechanics, kill these adds before they finish the summoning (and while they're up the boss is immune to damage), etc., as well as some heal debuff mechanics which, for example, on the tank causes them to do 0 self-heals and can only be healed by a source other than themselves.