The Elephant in the Dungeon: Fake Tanks & Healers.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2021

Nogawd wrote: »

4 dps will smoke the traditional group every single time in a normal.

Where did you get your "without a doubt" information?

Actually, I will put my money on 1 tank and 3DPS, even in normal if speed is the goal. A good tank to stack adds and provide debuffs is better for group DPS than a 4th DPS. Healers are 100% unnecessary for normal content, no argument there. A tank while not necessary, is certainly nice if for no other reason than to keep certain enemies from one shotting your DPS. Even on normal, there are one shots here and there.

amapola76 · December 2021

Mushroomancer wrote: »

Also, and I cannot stress this enough, do you, or any people that want to take their time with the dungeon, even mention that they want to go through it at their pace? I swear, it's like you think people can read your mind through a computer screen. You don't get to shut up through the dungeon and then get mad at the end because "Zippy" ruined your experience. Then again, if you weren't the only one upset, that desperate votekick before the last boss would have probably gone through.

One small problem, in the time it takes to type out "plz wait," Zippy is more than halfway through the dungeon.

Nogawd · December 2021

No it's not a new player thing. I see plenty of 1000+ bad dps as well, even 2000 sometimes.

It's a casual thing where done of them on the forum even admit they find want to get better but want everyone to cator to them.

Amottica · December 2021

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

Pre-made groups and those that walk into the dungeon will not be held to this requirement to allow them to decide their group makeup for themselves, as should always be the case.

It is the only thing I can see that Zenimax can do that could force a player queueing as a tank to have a taunt and actually use it.

Vevvev · December 2021

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

Pre-made groups and those that walk into the dungeon will not be held to this requirement to allow them to decide their group makeup for themselves, as should always be the case.

It is the only thing I can see that Zenimax can do that could force a player queueing as a tank to have a taunt and actually use it.

It could work I suppose. Some abilities already have a role included with them, but that ability would need to be frozen into place or if they take it off it starts a timer that'll eventually kick them out of the dungeon. That way it'll always be on one bar and if they don't use it the group will have a much stronger case for kicking them out for not doing their job, or the group finder will do it for them once the timer expires.

But.... I can still see it being a minor hurdle for a truly skilled speed runner, but at least you'll know they have the capacity to do their job, I guess?

Grandchamp1989 · December 2021

I do agree with you OP that normal anything is a pretty bad place to learn how to play support.

You're not really needed, often overlooked and people ignore you and rush ahead. You don't learn much of anything.

Even most of base game vet can often skip one of the supports if the team is decent.

What we truely need is a solo arena for supports.

As it stands now:

Normal + base game vet = Teaches you nothing as support
DLC vet = Pain and wipes

It goes from 0-100 too quick. It's a painful way to learn how to Tank.

I suspect in the long run this may be a problem for tank retention. As older tanks leave new ones must come along to fill the role.

BornDownUnder · December 2021

We have all had to learn from a beginning, every single dungeon run, whether it be a group or trial basis we had to learn. During that learning process if we did not have the luxury of it, we all would have preferred it to be a bit slower in pace so we could absorb more detail of the dungeon run and fight mechanics to better understand what was going on.

Why not help improve the newer players with constructive criticism and passing on knowledge you have gained instead of just trying to rush through the content as you have done multiple times prior? The greatest gift you can give is knowledge.

Some of the best and most enjoyable dungeon runs I have ever had is deciding to stick out a run that was going poor to lend a hand with players that were quite obviously new at the content (Or game in general)
The psychological effect for those players is one of feeling supported in the new content, or game they recently started playing.
The psychological effects for me (For you as well, if you choose to lend a hand) is I am rewarded with improving the skillset of players new to that content or game, making them better players in the long term. It makes me (As well as you) feel better, which makes the game more enjoyable for me (Again, you as well) is ultimately why you play the game is it not?

While there is no method to negate players that are of incompatible roles for those in a group that would prefer (Nothing ever will apart from locking down the roles via targeting specific abilities and enforcing those abilities to be in use) I think three (In the very least, the first and second) checks need to be implemented when the game is building the group via Group Dungeon Finder tool:

1: Has the player completed the quest for the dungeon? If not then they are placed in a queue that has others that have not completed the quest. Potentially long queue times for this one would be the unfortunate and eventual result. This outcome would be evident already if it was to be implemented now as a lot of dungeons have been out for a long time.

2: How many times the player has completed the dungeon? Subsequently placing them in a queue with other players in a similar category. This would end up becoming a very quick queue time eventually as the player pool count will gradually increase.

3: An option to determine how the player would like to run the dungeon, fast or slow. Same resulting issue as the first check, to a lesser degree.

This would resolve the issue of having players in a group that have already passed the learning experience of a dungeon and are wanting a more experienced group which can clear the content at a pace they find more suitable.

This will however have a negative impact on new players as they do not have steady access to players that are experienced and willing to pass on that knowledge if needed/required in order to progress in the dungeon.

Guides of any form, textual or footage only go so far, practical experience is key to understanding how mechanics really function and what you as a player has to do to negate the impact of those mechanics.

If an aspect of a game feels like a chore or your playtime in a game in general feels like a chore, then why not take a break and do something different in the game or take a step back from the game completely? Rediscover what you enjoyed about the game instead of viewing it as something you have to do. You will feel better if you do, as I have done multiple times over the years.

Side/Off Topic: There are three ways people learn in general (Encompassing all aspects of life) in no particular order, we all are partial to favouring one over the other two:
First is Visual, we are shown or we see something being done and we emulate it.
Second is Auditory, we are guided or we listen to queues whilst in the process of doing.
Third is Kinesthetic, we simply learn by doing.

wolfie1.0. · December 2021

Do we really need another thread on this topic?

Look how about we get rid of the group finder, or just break it. That would solve about 60% of this....

Tieberion · December 2021

Why do people keep making these threads? As a main/real tank even before the event started last month, I run 3-4 dungeons a day and have yet to run into a "fake healer" or someone who couldn't keep me and the group up. On my healer I have yet to run into a fake tank who can't survive a vet dungeon boss one shot mannuever with enough sliver of health left for me to do my job and raise the pool. I'm sorry to people having bad experiences, but I think this is more DPS problem, either rushing ahead, not knowing mechanics, standing in a pool of death, or too slow to kill a boss, than omg every match I get has a fake tank/healer.

KaGaOri · December 2021

Xebov wrote: »

KaGaOri wrote: »

Will make wild uneducated guess here:

1) people saying "fake roles in normal dungeons are not a problem and we don't understand why there's n-th thread about it" have 1000+ cp, bunch of fully leveled characters, at least 1 year experience in game and (possibly) previous experience from other mmo games.

2) people making these threads / writing in these threads have much less cp (if any), are still leveling their characters, are newer to game, (possibly) ESO being their first mmo ever.

It's easy to say it isn't a problem if it doesn't impact you since you can solo all of the mentioned content and rest of group is just icing on the cake to make it faster. It will continue to be problem for less experienced players and players with low level characters who simply can't keep up no matter how much they try. It will keep poping up on the forums as long as ZOS will encourage high-end players to run low-end content like a treadmill.

Some ideas:
- make normal base game dungeons no cp zone (like BGs)
- gradually scale the reward down in normal dungeons based on how much character outleveles them starting at lvl 50 / 160 cp
- put better reward in harder content (run 1x hard dungeon vs run 5x easy dungeon = same number of crystals)
- make PvP alternative for getting gear / transmutes, so PvP players aren't forced to do content they detest over and over

These threads add nothing new to the table and also dont bring any actual solutions with it that dont have huge sideffects.

As a tank player i can tell you that many of the healers i get are fake healers and a good number of them are actual low level players having 200 or 500CP or PvP players. Half of them dont deal any damage and just want to be carried, but they all believe that healers are not needed. As a tank i got used to it. I have to get used to it because the one who gets the blame is me, not the fake guy because ppl dont have any level of perception.

If you suggets ppl strugling with fakers to use group kick or leave and requeue or premake groups they dont like it or dont use it.

All ppl do here is posting "ideas" how to solve it.
Ive seen role locks and gear limitations that would also effect real healers and real tanks, but since DDs are selfcentered they never recognize it.
Ive seen suggestions reducing normal random or normal dungeon rewards without ppl realizing that these rewards are the major reason pug groups even come into existence.
Ive seen suggestions on increasing vet rewards without realizing that inexperienced players will start jumping into vet for the better reards. Something you can already see on pledges.

In the end everyone in these threads complains about fake tanks and healers, but noone wants to fill the roles and noone cares about the roles. Everyone just wants a real tank and real healer coupled with low queue times and noone cares how it could be done because everyone is selfcentered around their "problem" and these threads will not change anything about it. Thats also visible when talking about bad/fake dds that are a reason fewer tanks queue, which gets instantly shut down and denied.

Made tank last week and high cp players make dungeons just miserable. Can't do pledges yet, so need only 2 things in dungeons at this point - do quest for skill point + learn tanking in content where me making mistake won't wipe group. As it is, have to do each dungeon 2 - 3 times to get quest done and got to tank bosses in maybe three runs even while running several dungeons every day. There is always that one high cp player in the group soloing the whole thing and running at speed my low level tank can't match. Forgot how bad base game normals are, to be honest. If wanting to tank, probably will have to go directly to vet and figgure things out in there.

If the player can solo normal dungeon, they shouldn't have problem running vet and there should be something motivating them to go there instead. Or something to even the playing-field with low level characters. Right now new players get carried (or rather dragged through the dungeon) by one overpowered speedunner. No one has chance to try out playing support roles (high cp doesn't need tanking / healing in base game normals) and dd won't learn to do damage (never needed to, fake tank / healer killed everything before they got there). Easy dungeons should be for low level characters and players unable to do vet. Likely more casuals would give dungeons chance, or even try support roles, if there was place for them to start.

Arthtur · December 2021

No fake tanks in queue = 2h+ waiting in queue for DDs. Do u want this? Zos added dmg buff on a range taunt. If a fake tank dont use it - just kick him if u dont like this. Even if fake tanks are... irritating its still better than no dungeon at all i think.

As a real tank there is 0 chance that i will go into random normals. Even if u would pay me 1kk gold i wont do it. Im able to solo some vet dlc dungeons so tanking a normal dungeon on my real tank would be just boring.

Also i wont queue for random vet because im sick of bad/toxic groups. But that was said 100 times and ppl dont care about it so they dont need tanks i guess.

Removing fake tanks from queue wont change them into the real ones. Forcing taunt etc. wont solve it either. Oh and a lot of ppl just want those transmute stones because thats the fastes way to get them - but removing the reward will be even worse than removing fake tanks so that wont work too.

So my proposition is simple. Get better in the game. And im not saying this because im toxic. Its just the best way if u want to enjoy story in dungeons. If u are able to solo it then u can listen to every dialog, read every book and explore everything.

Anyway, Good Luck.

Hapexamendios · December 2021

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

That just penalizes the entire group for one person they have no control over.

Amottica · December 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

Pre-made groups and those that walk into the dungeon will not be held to this requirement to allow them to decide their group makeup for themselves, as should always be the case.

It is the only thing I can see that Zenimax can do that could force a player queueing as a tank to have a taunt and actually use it.

It could work I suppose. Some abilities already have a role included with them, but that ability would need to be frozen into place or if they take it off it starts a timer that'll eventually kick them out of the dungeon. That way it'll always be on one bar and if they don't use it the group will have a much stronger case for kicking them out for not doing their job, or the group finder will do it for them once the timer expires.

But.... I can still see it being a minor hurdle for a truly skilled speed runner, but at least you'll know they have the capacity to do their job, I guess?

Requiring an ability to be on a bar does nothing if the player is not required to use it. That is why I suggested the requirement for its use and if it is not the group is guaranteed to not kill the boss and proceed through the dungeon.

Fake tanks are the topic of this thread, not speed running.

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

That just penalizes the entire group for one person they have no control over.

The complaint put forward in this thread is suggesting the entire group is penalized when they get a fake tank. My suggestion eliminates fake tanks as they will quickly learn it no longer works.

wolfie1.0. · December 2021

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

That just penalizes the entire group for one person they have no control over.

In theory maybe, in practice you will have players that queue in just to intentionally troll players.

ixthUA · December 2021

I suggested this solution https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/592970/idea-how-to-fix-no-tank-and-no-healer-in-dungeons that works in another game i am playing, but it seems noone is actually interested in fixing normal dungeons.
Today in vet dungeon i had a tank (40k hp) with no taunt slotted, i am not sure if he even knew what his task is. DDs died many times that run.

Vulkunne · December 2021

HiveMind3006 wrote: »

Okay this is one issue with the game that is becoming so frequent that I think most players seem to just accept it. There are many who believe you don't need a tank or healer in a normal dungeon and this is just not the case for more than the obvious reason. New Tanks and Healers may wish to practice their skills and are being substituted by impatient DPS classes, woe betide anyone who is grouped with 'Zippy' (who just wants to storm through the dungeon and collect his crystals and experience) if you want to learn the dungeon, do the quest or even loot some mats on the way round.
I understand the need they feel as I have 8 characters who all do their Daily Dungeon Randoms but for the love of the Gods please guys show some consideration for others. The arrogance and impatience is quite frankly disgusting.
Back to the Tanks and Healer aren't required discussion, yea you can do the majority of the non DLC's without them but that doesn't mean you should try and get round the queuing system by marking yourself as a healer or tank. A balanced group makes for a faster smoother run without a doubt. Just try some of the DLC instances with an inexperienced group and no heals and it can be a total waste of everyone's time, same applies with a fake tank or even worse but quite common at the minute both tank & heals missing.
The majority of players aren't nasty and don't want to kick people but until ZOS do something about it that's the only option we have to try and combat these players.
And that leads us to what exactly could ZOS do about this problem? I don't know if this is doable but isn't there a way to determine when a player switches class if your have the relevant skills to play as that class, i.e a Sword and Shield and at least one taunt skills on your bar for tanks and a Resto staff and heals slotted for healers? It would certainly make for a better experience for all concerned ...well except for Zippy, coz' unfortunately she/he is going to have to queue a little longer.
Your thoughts please.

Sigh. I feel your frustration pal. You're right though, its up to the group if they want to kick or not. You know I've seen many times when people pull these antics and the group just refuses to kick them.

And personally, I find that to be even worse than the offense itself.

majulook · December 2021

I find that just getting guild members or friends for random normal's is a good way to go. worst case is you get 4 dps which can do most normal's, but most times one or more mag builds have healing skill and it just works. Plus with guilds or friends you get a group that will move together (no running off) and wait as someone does the dungeon quest.
Also most of the time the RND expands to doing the daily pledges.

This make for much less of a pita and more fun.

peacenote · December 2021

SSX_Gryphon wrote: »

It's more a symptom of people than it is the game. If someone wants something and they want it quickly, they'll take the quickest route. Whatever fix is implemented will only last as long as it takes for somebody impatient to figure a way around it.

This.

I keep clicking on these threads and participating in them, and I think it is because I'm extremely worried that something well-intentioned and heavy-handed will be done by ZOS "because of all the feedback." And I am about 95% sure at this point that this has been talked to death and there is no solution that won't make things significantly worse for a lot of folks and will, in reality, make very few happy.

I think it is just something that is part of the culture of ESO that needs to be accepted. If it could be "fixed," it would have been addressed by now.

Yes, sometimes we get a fake or bad tank, dps, or healer when using the dungeon queue. Yes, this sometimes results in scenarios that range from not being able to complete the content at a normal / leisurely pace to not being able clear harder content at all. Yes, there is a daily reward tied to an activity with a very unpredictable time-to-completion. Yes, things seem to be worse during certain events that reward running dungeons or grant double xp.

Think of it as part of the RNG that governs all in this game. I do understand why it can be frustrating but part of me does not fathom why people expect such a consistent experience in a PUG in a GAME. A game which has Crown Crates, end game PvE pieces tied to Antiquities Leads, guild traders instead of a global auction house, a luxury furniture vendor whose goods change every weekend, a PvP golden vendor which does the same... I could go on. The entirety of ESO is built off of "luck of the draw" and varied experiences when it comes to earning rewards.

I say, for a pug, enjoy your luck when you get a group you like and/or a dungeon you want, and laugh it off when you don't. Because expecting ZOS to somehow guarantee that you have an effective tank, healer, and/DPS in your random group seems a bit unreasonable.

Vevvev · December 2021

Amottica wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

Pre-made groups and those that walk into the dungeon will not be held to this requirement to allow them to decide their group makeup for themselves, as should always be the case.

It is the only thing I can see that Zenimax can do that could force a player queueing as a tank to have a taunt and actually use it.

It could work I suppose. Some abilities already have a role included with them, but that ability would need to be frozen into place or if they take it off it starts a timer that'll eventually kick them out of the dungeon. That way it'll always be on one bar and if they don't use it the group will have a much stronger case for kicking them out for not doing their job, or the group finder will do it for them once the timer expires.

But.... I can still see it being a minor hurdle for a truly skilled speed runner, but at least you'll know they have the capacity to do their job, I guess?

Requiring an ability to be on a bar does nothing if the player is not required to use it. That is why I suggested the requirement for its use and if it is not the group is guaranteed to not kill the boss and proceed through the dungeon.

Fake tanks are the topic of this thread, not speed running.

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

That just penalizes the entire group for one person they have no control over.

The complaint put forward in this thread is suggesting the entire group is penalized when they get a fake tank. My suggestion eliminates fake tanks as they will quickly learn it no longer works.

And how are you planning to force them to use it without being intrusive? Just curious as not every fight needs a taunt for instance as whacking them all with a big AoE can sometimes be enough to do the job then you spend the time chain pulling the ranged NPCs in and immobilizing/stunning them to stay still. When must they use it? Once in the dungeon? Every single time you go into combat?

Sorry for the questions, but these are the things facing that suggestion.

Jeremy · December 2021

HiveMind3006 wrote: »

Okay this is one issue with the game that is becoming so frequent that I think most players seem to just accept it. There are many who believe you don't need a tank or healer in a normal dungeon and this is just not the case for more than the obvious reason. New Tanks and Healers may wish to practice their skills and are being substituted by impatient DPS classes, woe betide anyone who is grouped with 'Zippy' (who just wants to storm through the dungeon and collect his crystals and experience) if you want to learn the dungeon, do the quest or even loot some mats on the way round.
I understand the need they feel as I have 8 characters who all do their Daily Dungeon Randoms but for the love of the Gods please guys show some consideration for others. The arrogance and impatience is quite frankly disgusting.
Back to the Tanks and Healer aren't required discussion, yea you can do the majority of the non DLC's without them but that doesn't mean you should try and get round the queuing system by marking yourself as a healer or tank. A balanced group makes for a faster smoother run without a doubt. Just try some of the DLC instances with an inexperienced group and no heals and it can be a total waste of everyone's time, same applies with a fake tank or even worse but quite common at the minute both tank & heals missing.
The majority of players aren't nasty and don't want to kick people but until ZOS do something about it that's the only option we have to try and combat these players.
And that leads us to what exactly could ZOS do about this problem? I don't know if this is doable but isn't there a way to determine when a player switches class if your have the relevant skills to play as that class, i.e a Sword and Shield and at least one taunt skills on your bar for tanks and a Resto staff and heals slotted for healers? It would certainly make for a better experience for all concerned ...well except for Zippy, coz' unfortunately she/he is going to have to queue a little longer.
Your thoughts please.

They could split the queue in half: one selection is reserved for a more traditional and balanced group set up. The other selection would be a free for all.

That might work. Though it's possible fake tanks would still infest the traditional queue if it meant faster queue times for them.

A more punitive measure would be to add a specific way to report fake tanks that would alert game masters so they could investigate. And if said player is found to have lied about their role in order to cut in line of others their account could be put on a temporary time out from using the activity finder.

Aside from that, the only other possible solutions I can think of would be to redesign the game to where tanks and healers are a must have to complete the dungeon. Or you could just roll as a tank (which is what I ended up doing).

Amottica · December 2021

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

That just penalizes the entire group for one person they have no control over.

In theory maybe, in practice you will have players that queue in just to intentionally troll players.

How would this entice players to troll other players vs the fake tanks we have now?

Amottica · December 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

Pre-made groups and those that walk into the dungeon will not be held to this requirement to allow them to decide their group makeup for themselves, as should always be the case.

It is the only thing I can see that Zenimax can do that could force a player queueing as a tank to have a taunt and actually use it.

It could work I suppose. Some abilities already have a role included with them, but that ability would need to be frozen into place or if they take it off it starts a timer that'll eventually kick them out of the dungeon. That way it'll always be on one bar and if they don't use it the group will have a much stronger case for kicking them out for not doing their job, or the group finder will do it for them once the timer expires.

But.... I can still see it being a minor hurdle for a truly skilled speed runner, but at least you'll know they have the capacity to do their job, I guess?

Requiring an ability to be on a bar does nothing if the player is not required to use it. That is why I suggested the requirement for its use and if it is not the group is guaranteed to not kill the boss and proceed through the dungeon.

Fake tanks are the topic of this thread, not speed running.

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

That just penalizes the entire group for one person they have no control over.

The complaint put forward in this thread is suggesting the entire group is penalized when they get a fake tank. My suggestion eliminates fake tanks as they will quickly learn it no longer works.

And how are you planning to force them to use it without being intrusive? Just curious as not every fight needs a taunt for instance as whacking them all with a big AoE can sometimes be enough to do the job then you spend the time chain pulling the ranged NPCs in and immobilizing/stunning them to stay still. When must they use it? Once in the dungeon? Every single time you go into combat?

Sorry for the questions, but these are the things facing that suggestion.

@Vevvev

Please forgive me as I have been playing ESO for less than a year so I do not know how wacking a boss with a big AoE is ever enough to get the job done. How does a group kill a boss like that?

Then again, if a group is able to kill a boss with a big AoE then it seems they would beat the timer I suggested. Having a fake tank would not be an issue at all for them. But again, I have not seen a boss die in this manner.

ixthUA · December 2021

Making a no role queue will not solve the problem as people will still queue as fake roles, hoping for a real tank or real healer, or for any other irrelevant reason.
There are solutions that will work with no downsides and don't require redesigning the game, but they are being completely ignored. I do only veteran dungeons though, so not my problem anyway.

Vevvev · December 2021

Amottica wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

Pre-made groups and those that walk into the dungeon will not be held to this requirement to allow them to decide their group makeup for themselves, as should always be the case.

It is the only thing I can see that Zenimax can do that could force a player queueing as a tank to have a taunt and actually use it.

It could work I suppose. Some abilities already have a role included with them, but that ability would need to be frozen into place or if they take it off it starts a timer that'll eventually kick them out of the dungeon. That way it'll always be on one bar and if they don't use it the group will have a much stronger case for kicking them out for not doing their job, or the group finder will do it for them once the timer expires.

But.... I can still see it being a minor hurdle for a truly skilled speed runner, but at least you'll know they have the capacity to do their job, I guess?

Requiring an ability to be on a bar does nothing if the player is not required to use it. That is why I suggested the requirement for its use and if it is not the group is guaranteed to not kill the boss and proceed through the dungeon.

Fake tanks are the topic of this thread, not speed running.

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

An idea came to mind that would work but is not a simple program job, neither is what is suggested in this thread.

Since a taunt is the only real requirement for tanking, all else is subjective and most of that is to the player's skill, boss fights can be designed where the boss will one-shot whoever has agro if it goes more than 5 seconds without a taunt. The group will wipe fast if no one is taunting. Since this will cause groups to wipe if they do not have a tank or have a DPS/taunt who cannot handle the agro those types of players will cease queueing as a tank. Theoretically speaking ofc.

That just penalizes the entire group for one person they have no control over.

The complaint put forward in this thread is suggesting the entire group is penalized when they get a fake tank. My suggestion eliminates fake tanks as they will quickly learn it no longer works.

And how are you planning to force them to use it without being intrusive? Just curious as not every fight needs a taunt for instance as whacking them all with a big AoE can sometimes be enough to do the job then you spend the time chain pulling the ranged NPCs in and immobilizing/stunning them to stay still. When must they use it? Once in the dungeon? Every single time you go into combat?

Sorry for the questions, but these are the things facing that suggestion.

Please forgive me as I have been playing ESO for less than a year so I do not know how wacking a boss with a big AoE is ever enough to get the job done. How does a group kill a boss like that?

Then again, if a group is able to kill a boss with a big AoE then it seems they would beat the timer I suggested. Having a fake tank would not be an issue at all for them. But again, I have not seen a boss die in this manner.

It's a trick on keeping aggro in fights as the NPCs kind of prioritize the first thing that hit them, then focus on the most active opponent. Taunt overrides this aggression prioritization and what I was saying was some tanks never cast a single taunt in some fights of a dungeon (The fights inbetween the boss fights) because where they get all the aggro towards them is with abilities like Unstable Wall of Elements, Talons, Pulsar, and sets that deal AoE stuff like Void Bash that pulls them all in. Taunting is more for beginners, bosses, and high priority enemies that lose aggro on the tank after they've used other methods of crowd control. (Like Lurchers in March of Sacrifices.)

Edit: This is also why there are no AoE taunts in ESO outside a specific set combo some people got crafty with. ESO tanking is not about taunting everything in sight, but instead crowd control by pulling in and holding enemies, while also keeping the couple of lethal foes in the group taunted and focused on you.

WraithShadow13 · December 2021

I doubt they're ever going to do anything to fix this or actually SOLVE the problem.

They've let DPS get so godly, that they have to start building around it, so healing and tanking has become irrelevant. Add onto that a very toxic community and most people don't want to tank or heal anymore. Playing tank, i get yelled and and insulted because a DPS ran ahead and died trying to solo the boss. As a healer, the same happens because some b-hole of a person stands in EVERY aoe trying to nuke the boss.

More so, if you're in PvP, there IS no tanking, unless you have the uber builds that let you solo entire zergs. Being a healer is it's own pain but at least seems lucrative, since you're leaching points off the rest of the team. Solo, though, healing in PvP suuuuuuuuucks.

Considering how they built the game to play, versus how people are actually playing and the fact they're not balancing that out or doing anything to really get back to the trinity style dungeons, yeah...

It's just going to get worse before it gets better...

orgin_stadia · December 2021

I love a zippy in a normal. 2 even more, 3 woah gimme!. And 4 is just eternal bliss!

Can't say I feel the same of snails. Nor the "hey wait for the tank!" people, as if idling around while someone tries taunt on every little trash pack for the first time is what I'm waking up to do in 8 dungeons every day.

Frigging just split the Normal queue into two! There certainly seems to be enough people that complain about zippies all the time, just as there seem to be enough zippies to complain about.

Normal queue for newbies, slowbies, questies, book readers and crate looters.
Expert queue for people that want to feel the joy of being able to finish dungeons as fast as possible. Finding which trash packs to avoid, drag around the packs for total glorious mayhem and generally just trying to get to the "Joining encounter in progress" point as fast as possible. Ahh the joy!

Same rewards for both queues of course. Stop trying to use punishments to kill the fun for either gamer type.

And if you then complain about the queue times, just remember that you didn't want those people in your group anyway, and they didn't want you!

Troodon80 · December 2021

peacenote wrote: »

SSX_Gryphon wrote: »

It's more a symptom of people than it is the game. If someone wants something and they want it quickly, they'll take the quickest route. Whatever fix is implemented will only last as long as it takes for somebody impatient to figure a way around it.

This.

I keep clicking on these threads and participating in them, and I think it is because I'm extremely worried that something well-intentioned and heavy-handed will be done by ZOS "because of all the feedback." And I am about 95% sure at this point that this has been talked to death and there is no solution that won't make things significantly worse for a lot of folks and will, in reality, make very few happy.

I'm much the same in this regard. I give suggestions and even at the end I state that they're not good and maybe list poossible examples of why. Most people give off-the-cuff suggestions with little thought into how they might be (1) implemented and (2) abused or worked around. The problem is largely a people problem rather than a game problem. If people played the way it was intended, this wouldn't be an issue. It's because people are not playing as intended that we are having this problem. Anything ZOS does likely won't stand the test of time. Someone will come up with a convenient way to bypass it and it will be an issue again.

To recap some of the suggestions:

Make the boss do extreme damage to the tank, that'll be fun!
- The main talking point. No, it won't. First and foremost, is this applied to base game dungeons, which requires a complete rebalance of all dungeons in the game to date, or only DLC?
- The Dread Cellar last boss hard mode
- Kyne's Aegis last boss hard mode
- Stone Garden last boss hard mode
- Bahsie pre-Mist Form change hard mode
- There's a common link here and it's not just "hard mode." The attacks are not just "tank busters" with high impact damage that needs to be healed up -- the issue is that a full spec healer can do around 50k+ raw HPS, assuming the healer has nothing much else to do, meaning that a tank buster would be meaningless. It's high intensity, sometimes health-scaled, sustained damage which cannot be dodged (Dread Cellar, Bahsei), blocked (Xalvakka's Creeping Manifold), or purged (Dread Cellar, Stone Garden, Bahsie), usually damage over time for a specific duration, and usually stacking with other high intensity DoTs or other sources of incoming damage, including high impact light attacks and heavy attacks.
- Speaking just from my own experience, I main a tank and I'm used to playing with very little heals, generally nothing I can't manage by myself with my own class based heals. I like this style of play because there's emphsis on a more technical side and not just "taunt and block meat-shield." Suddenly being tossed into content where heals are necessary, not just desirable, and watching your health bounce around like a yo-yo wondering if your healer is up to the task... is not fun. That's an optimised and coordinated group I'm talking about. Now apply this to a PUG run via the dungeon finder for "your" ideal balance.
  - This is because of how ZOS designed all the rest of their content and are now adapting newer content for power creep and increased player skill. However, instead of just giving more mechanics to play, such as meaningful DD-based mechanics* to cut back on DPS (which is also why I liked the first boss in The Dread Cellar to try and prevent over-DPS and focus more on disciplined DPS bursts), we just get absurd HPS checks to make healers feel wanted. Only they don't feel wanted. They feel more stressed or that they're babysitting by spamming heals.
  - * (e.g. an "add" that appears and cannot be taunted, which applies a shield and heals the boss, forcing DDs to kill it; diverting attention from the main boss, something similar without he heal was done back in Blessed Crucible)
Make the boss one-shot/wipe the group if taunt runs out.
- Penalising others for a tank who might be learning and who might not understand how taunt works? How is this fun to anyone? If I were a healer or a DD, I would hate this and I would be less likely to run the content with someone who is inexperienced, something that can very easily happen via the Dungeon Finder.
Check abilities and require a taunt to be slotted when queuing;
- Counter point: the Tormentor set doesn't require an ability
Have taunt checks throughout the dungeon, either periodic or at the start of a fight.
- I've said this before, but having a taunt slotted doesn't mean it has to be used. But even if the check is whether or not a Taunt ability was used... Counter point, DD can slot and use Inner Beast to increase their DPS. Encouraging "fake" tanks, who at that point are arguably "real" tanks because they do have a taunt. Also, where are these checks? Client or server-side? Potential impact on game performance?
Have heal checks to ensure the group has a real healer; this checks that certain skills are being used.
- Not really feasible. Like most MMOs, you don't just throw out a constant stream of heals. There's no point healing if there's no incoming damage or so little damage to waste a GC instead of potentially using a damage/buff/debuff skill. Same as above, impact on performance?
Give extra rewards to tanks and healers via the dungeon finder.
- Worst idea out of the whole bunch -- I main a tank, I'd go for the extra rewards, that would be fantastic. Yeah, me and all the DDs who are also looking for those sweet rewards.
All of the above! Extra rewards, high intensity damage, taunt and heal checks, and wipes if the checks are not met!
- You're serious, aren't you?

Many of the suggestions are simply baffling and very obviously don't come from the perspective of a tank or healer. Though as someone else in another topic said regarding the "fake" roles: this is a DD problem, which predominantly affects DDs when other selfish DDs queue as a role which they are not, and which DDs are trying to fix.

Instead of focusing down on the dungeon finder, fake roles, and adding even more tank/healer mechanics which are not in the slightest bit fun, perhaps a better solution is to make a more intuitive global LFG system, where people can recruit members to a group based on the listed requirements via a new interface, regardless of instance or location.

You want to do a random normal with four DDs? Bring up the interface, press the new LFG button, set your requirements (level/CP/achievement), set the goal (e.g. random normal, loot farming, quests, dungeon/trial, etc.), press Recruit, and then wait for people to join. Because it's global, you don't need to go to Craglorn and hope you're in a good instance where there are people spamming LFG/LFM. No more spamming zone or guild chat, no more keeping track of the people joining and figuring out how many more of what role you want.

But this has its own issues and drawbacks, including extra database entries, which will also likely impact overall performance? Not only that, but it doesn't fix the issue of "fake" roles. It just makes it easier to get or make a group with the standards an individual (group) wants, and it may also have the downside of taking more people out of solo random queues, which are used to backfill people queuing for specific dungeons (but then again they could/should also use the new system).

Even the seemingly "best" ideas have drawbacks. Things which most people are intent to overlook because their idea is great and couldn't be flawed in any way. I say the status quo is fine, and many of the changes being proposed would likely only make things worse/less desirable for the actual roles they're being aimed at. But what do DDs care if tanking becomes less desirable, right? Well, for one, it's not going to make "real" tanks queue more, especially with the overall low DPS standards of the average player. If you want specific standards, type "LFG random normal/veteran" in whatever chat(s) you can, teleport to other areas if needed, and find friends, ask them if they'd like to join, etc.

madrab73 · December 2021

They should enable crit damage from NPCs in PVE. Will soon weed out the fakes.

DMuehlhausen · December 2021

There really is no reason for a tank or healer in basically any Normal dungeon. Vet obviously is another story, but even most of those can probably be done without one or the other.

There are some trials that can be solo'd. People do vDSA with no healer all the time.

Zezin · December 2021

KaGaOri wrote: »

Will make wild uneducated guess here:

1) people saying "fake roles in normal dungeons are not a problem and we don't understand why there's n-th thread about it" have 1000+ cp, bunch of fully leveled characters, at least 1 year experience in game and (possibly) previous experience from other mmo games.

2) people making these threads / writing in these threads have much less cp (if any), are still leveling their characters, are newer to game, (possibly) ESO being their first mmo ever.

It's easy to say it isn't a problem if it doesn't impact you since you can solo all of the mentioned content and rest of group is just icing on the cake to make it faster. It will continue to be problem for less experienced players and players with low level characters who simply can't keep up no matter how much they try. It will keep poping up on the forums as long as ZOS will encourage high-end players to run low-end content like a treadmill.

Some ideas:
- make normal base game dungeons no cp zone (like BGs)
- gradually scale the reward down in normal dungeons based on how much character outleveles them starting at lvl 50 / 160 cp
- put better reward in harder content (run 1x hard dungeon vs run 5x easy dungeon = same number of crystals)
- make PvP alternative for getting gear / transmutes, so PvP players aren't forced to do content they detest over and over

Give better rewards for running random normals then it won't be that much of a problem in normal and instead people will complain about fake dps in dlc dungeons. Let's face it, there's no good solution here and that's why this is all pointless, the current system works as it is.