defensive set beyond Pariah?

Larcomar · November 2021

Not tested it, but buffer of swift gives a "10%" reduction in damage from players. Sounds good, but % damage reductions don't stack well. You can achieve the same thing with Cp or just by slotting blinding fllare. If you've already got those, I'd guess it's going to be worth less than half the 10% it advertises. TLDR - armor stacks better.

edit - this thread is good if you want to work out precisely how much mitigation you'll get
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-21-03-2021/p1

Rhaegar75 · November 2021

just chucking stuff on the table.....worth using Pariah/swift back bar only? It really doesn't sound logical to me but I don't want to give up a mythic or monster set to double bar a defensive set

Syiccal · November 2021

I wouldn't only back bar pariah, but maybe iron flask is a possibility

divnyi · November 2021

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Buffer of the swift > pariah > armor master

I’m interested in your opinion on pariah vs swift: these are the main defensive sets I’m considering at the moment.

I also use trickery but can’t really consider it a full on defensive set: love it in CP cyro but not as happy with it in BGs hence shifting towards pariah or swift

It depends on how high is your armor rating. 6600 armor is +10% reduction (caps at 50%), but it's 10% reduction that is additive.

So if you have 40% reduction and add 10%, you get 50% reduction. 0.5/0.6 = 0.83333333333, so 16.5% damage reduction instead of 10%.

If you are sitting at 40% armor reduction (26400 armor), 10% mitigation is 0.54/0.6, so like ~4000 armor. Which is like 70-80% of HP values at Pariah.

SkaraMinoc · November 2021

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Buffer of the swift > pariah > armor master

Umm no. The following is the correct order for pure mitigation.

Ironblood
Pariah below 40% health
Aetherial Ascension
Pariah between 40% and 60% health
Armor Master
Pariah between 60% and 90% health
Swift below 33k armor
Brass
Swift above 33k armor
Pariah above 90% health

Vampire Stage 3 @ 50% health with 8250 resist remaining after debuffs and enemy penetration would sit at #6 on this list.

SkaraMinoc · November 2021

With Ironblood, Pariah, Vampire Stage 3, and block you can reduce most incoming hits to < 2k damage.

gamma71 · November 2021

Every time I try buffer of the swift I go back to pariah every time. Stage 3 vamp meshes well on my mag dk and pariah.

Rhaegar75 · November 2021

gamma71 wrote: »

Every time I try buffer of the swift I go back to pariah every time. Stage 3 vamp meshes well on my mag dk and pariah.

Just had a go with swift on my plar….meh at best.

What do you pair pariah with on your magdk? Curious to whether you sacrifice a monster set or a mythic

Larcomar · November 2021

BSW is good on magdk. I run with malacath but you could try a helm.

Syiccal · November 2021

I use pariah with a mythic and use 1 piece balorgs, a front bar set then vateshrans ice staff on the back, that and blinding flare makes me pretty tanky

Syiccal · November 2021

To add, even with 30k resists, pariah and major and minor protection I still take 6-7k hits in bg so it's almost irrelevant what's used

SigmarusWyrmborn · November 2021

I found 40K resist and major protection at a minimum as the sweet spot most dps builds have about 10k penetration, ofcourse you have to experiment with your stats and regen, I find 30K health is a must.

EmperorIl · November 2021

SigmarusWyrmborn wrote: »

I found 40K resist and major protection at a minimum as the sweet spot most dps builds have about 10k penetration, ofcourse you have to experiment with your stats and regen, I find 30K health is a must.

t that point we're all just walking ultimate generators. ZOS needs to do something to get rid of the need to stack so much defense, because pretty soon no one will die. I just ran a deathmatch that the timer ran out on because no one was dying. That's just ridiculous.

vms11934 · November 2021

EmperorIl wrote: »

SigmarusWyrmborn wrote: »

I found 40K resist and major protection at a minimum as the sweet spot most dps builds have about 10k penetration, ofcourse you have to experiment with your stats and regen, I find 30K health is a must.

t that point we're all just walking ultimate generators. ZOS needs to do something to get rid of the need to stack so much defense, because pretty soon no one will die. I just ran a deathmatch that the timer ran out on because no one was dying. That's just ridiculous.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.

SigmarusWyrmborn · November 2021

do not forget what the thread is about…

Syiccal · November 2021

Has anyone tried iron flask?

gamma71 · November 2021

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

gamma71 wrote: »

Every time I try buffer of the swift I go back to pariah every time. Stage 3 vamp meshes well on my mag dk and pariah.

Just had a go with swift on my plar….meh at best.

What do you pair pariah with on your magdk? Curious to whether you sacrifice a monster set or a mythic

For bgs I'm using sithis head swarm mother shoulders. I use shackle breaker and pariah. I felt with Dc being every we're I really need the stats to break free and heal. I don't back bar anything pariah is always up.

In bgs I seem to always get focused so building for damage really doesn't work for me every time I do I just get focused and die.

MentalxHammer · November 2021

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Buffer of the swift > pariah > armor master

I’m interested in your opinion on pariah vs swift: these are the main defensive sets I’m considering at the moment.

I also use trickery but can’t really consider it a full on defensive set: love it in CP cyro but not as happy with it in BGs hence shifting towards pariah or swift

People have varying opinions on swift vs. pariah, as noted the 5 pc bonus on swift provides the equivalent of 6600 resistance, to provide similar mitigation with pariah, you will beed to be at approximately 65% hp. There are two main issues with this, in high pressure situations it is important to always keep your health bar topped off, so you don’t become targeted and bursted down in an ult dump. Additionally, pariah only really stands out at rather low hp percentages where you are susceptible to execute skills. For these reasons I find swift to be stronger.

With that being said obviously swift is a light armor set, if the armor weight will disturb your build, pariah is still quite strong.

Also totally agree with your sentiment on trickery a perfect build will have little to no weaknesses, trickery is way too variable

Daffen · November 2021

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Buffer of the swift > pariah > armor master

I’m interested in your opinion on pariah vs swift: these are the main defensive sets I’m considering at the moment.

I also use trickery but can’t really consider it a full on defensive set: love it in CP cyro but not as happy with it in BGs hence shifting towards pariah or swift

People have varying opinions on swift vs. pariah, as noted the 5 pc bonus on swift provides the equivalent of 6600 resistance, to provide similar mitigation with pariah, you will beed to be at approximately 65% hp. There are two main issues with this, in high pressure situations it is important to always keep your health bar topped off, so you don’t become targeted and bursted down in an ult dump. Additionally, pariah only really stands out at rather low hp percentages where you are susceptible to execute skills. For these reasons I find swift to be stronger.

With that being said obviously swift is a light armor set, if the armor weight will disturb your build, pariah is still quite strong.

Also totally agree with your sentiment on trickery a perfect build will have little to no weaknesses, trickery is way too variable

I see these % mitigations converted to resistances and while true, it only applies if you have 0 resistances to begin with. If you have 50% base mitigation + 40% mitigation from resistances and another 10% from swift it adds up to 73% mitigation. (1-(0.5)*(0.6)*(0.9) = 0.73). However if you use a set which gives resistances instead we can calculate how much resistances we need to get the same mitigation. 1-(0.5)*(1-x)=0.73 gives us x = 0.46. So we would need 46-40 = 6% more mitigation from resistances if we were allready at 40% from resists (or 26 400 armor) which is an increase of 3960 armor (pariah at 100% health gives 5347). If we add (26400+5347)/660 = 48.1% to the equation we get 1-(0.5)*(1-0.481)=0.74. 74% mitigation is the same as having 73% mitigation and getting another 3.7% mitigation

Pariah is worth it as long as your resistances are not above 33k after debuffs and penetration (33k + 6k (major breach) + 8k (average penetration) which is around 47k resists) so in almost all cases it is worth using.

SkaraMinoc · November 2021

Syiccal wrote: »

Has anyone tried iron flask?

Too much downtime.

SkaraMinoc · November 2021

MentalxHammer wrote: »

People have varying opinions on swift vs. pariah, as noted the 5 pc bonus on swift provides the equivalent of 6600 resistance

Only if you have 0 armor after debuffs and enemy penetration. At that point Swift won't help. You'll be dead soon.

Damage reduction is applied after multiplied together with armor mitigation.

Example:

A 10000 damage hit with 16.5k resist remaining becomes 7500 damage. 10% damage reduction on a 7500 damage hit becomes 6750 damage. 750 damage off the original 10000 damage hit is only 7.5% damage mitigation or 4950 armor.

At 0 resist, would you rather have more mitigation with Pariah below 48% health?
At 16.5k resist, would you rather have more mitigation with Pariah below 68% health?
At 33k resist, would you rather have more mitigation with Pariah below 88% health?

Swift is garbage. Pariah wins.

SkaraMinoc · November 2021

Here you go

Time spent ~2 hours.

621 data points collected for Pariah.

MentalxHammer · November 2021

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

People have varying opinions on swift vs. pariah, as noted the 5 pc bonus on swift provides the equivalent of 6600 resistance

Only if you have 0 armor after debuffs and enemy penetration. At that point Swift won't help. You'll be dead soon.

Damage reduction is applied after armor mitigation.

Example:

A 10000 damage hit with 16.5k resist remaining becomes 7500 damage. 10% damage reduction on a 7500 damage hit becomes 6750 damage. 750 damage off the original 10000 damage hit is only 7.5% damage mitigation or 4950 armor.

At 0 resist, would you rather have more mitigation with Pariah below 48% health?
At 16.5k resist, would you rather have more mitigation with Pariah below 68% health?
At 33k resist, would you rather have more mitigation with Pariah below 88% health?

Swift is garbage. Pariah wins.

To my understand total mitigation is checked in a single process when you take damage; can you tell me why you believe % mitigation is calculated after damage is mitigated by armor?

SkaraMinoc · November 2021

MentalxHammer wrote: »

To my understand total mitigation is checked in a single process when you take damage; can you tell me why you believe % mitigation is calculated after damage is mitigated by armor?

I've verified it works that way by observing damage taken with different levels of armor and damage reduction.

Here's the steps:

Go to the Saintsport Wayshrine in South Stros M'Kai
Unequip all gear, champion points, etc. and reduce Vampire to Stage 2 or below. You should be at 0 armor.
Let a Wolf nearby hit you for 695 damage
Run away and equip Temporal Guard (5% damage reduction)
The Wolf hits you for 660 damage
Run away and equip some armor. In this example, I use Aetherial Ascension Staff + Jewelry. I have 10351 armor.
Unequip Temporal Guard
The Wolf hits you for 587 damage
Run away and equip Temporal Guard
The Wolf hits you for 557 damage

Summary:

0 armor, 0 damage reduction = 695 damage
0 armor, 5% damage reduction = 660 damage
10351 armor (15.68333333%), 0 damage reduction = 587 damage
10351 armor (15.68333333%), 5% damage reduction = 557 damage

Conclusion:

Damage reduction is calculated after armor multiplied together with armor.

Daffen · November 2021

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

To my understand total mitigation is checked in a single process when you take damage; can you tell me why you believe % mitigation is calculated after damage is mitigated by armor?

I've verified it works that way by observing damage taken with different levels of armor and damage reduction.

Here's the steps:
Go to the Saintsport Wayshrine in South Stros M'Kai

Unequip all gear, champion points, etc. and reduce Vampire to Stage 2 or below. You should be at 0 armor.

Let a Wolf nearby hit you for 695 damage

Run away and equip Temporal Guard (5% damage reduction)

The Wolf hits you for 660 damage

Run away and equip some armor. In this example, I use Aetherial Ascension Staff + Jewelry. I have 10351 armor.

Unequip Temporal Guard

The Wolf hits you for 587 damage

Run away and equip Temporal Guard

The Wolf hits you for 557 damage

Summary:

0 armor, 0 damage reduction = 695 damage
0 armor, 5% damage reduction = 660 damage
10351 armor (15.68333333%), 0 damage reduction = 587 damage
10351 armor (15.68333333%), 5% damage reduction = 557 damage

Conclusion:

Damage reduction is calculated after armor.

Its not calculated after armor, it is calculated multiplicative (at the same time). Formula is 1 - (1-#1)*(1-#2)*(1-#3)*(1-#4)...... where #1 is first mitigation value, #2 is second mitigation value (in comma form) and so on. Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1

MentalxHammer · November 2021

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

To my understand total mitigation is checked in a single process when you take damage; can you tell me why you believe % mitigation is calculated after damage is mitigated by armor?

I've verified it works that way by observing damage taken with different levels of armor and damage reduction.

Here's the steps:
Go to the Saintsport Wayshrine in South Stros M'Kai

Unequip all gear, champion points, etc. and reduce Vampire to Stage 2 or below. You should be at 0 armor.

Let a Wolf nearby hit you for 695 damage

Run away and equip Temporal Guard (5% damage reduction)

The Wolf hits you for 660 damage

Run away and equip some armor. In this example, I use Aetherial Ascension Staff + Jewelry. I have 10351 armor.

Unequip Temporal Guard

The Wolf hits you for 587 damage

Run away and equip Temporal Guard

The Wolf hits you for 557 damage

Summary:

0 armor, 0 damage reduction = 695 damage
0 armor, 5% damage reduction = 660 damage
10351 armor (15.68333333%), 0 damage reduction = 587 damage
10351 armor (15.68333333%), 5% damage reduction = 557 damage

Conclusion:

Damage reduction is calculated after armor.

I follow your test, and see how it supports your conclusions, but I believe that its interpretation may be flawed.
You draw that damage reduction is calculated after armor, this conclusion makes sense based on your data, I assume your thought process is as follows:

695 damage with 10351 armor (15.68333333%) mitigation applied = 587 damage
take this damage and apply % mitigation
587 damage with 5% mitigation applied = 557 damage

But note that the following is also true:

695 damage with 5% mitigation applied = 660 damage
take this damage and apply armor mitigation
660 damage with 10351 armor (15.68333333%) mitigation applied = 557 damage

Based on this it can also be interpreted that % mitigation is applied before armor mitigation, although I believe neither is true and that they are calculated in the same multiplicative formula. Above you mentioned that swift is much less effective than it appears because it's only shaving a small amount of damage off of a value that has already been operated on by armor based mitigation; I believe this conclusion is incorrect and could have been caused by a misinterpretation of your experimental results. The findings from players in this community thread regarding damage mitigation corroborate my current understanding of mitigation calculations.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-21-03-2021

My apologies if any of my observations are incorrect, I would just like to be 100% sure on my knowledge.

SkaraMinoc · November 2021

Daffen wrote: »

Its not calculated after armor, it is calculated multiplicative (at the same time). Formula is 1 - (1-#1)*(1-#2)*(1-#3)*(1-#4)...... where #1 is first mitigation value, #2 is second mitigation value (in comma form) and so on. Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1

That's a great post and explains everything. Thankfully, due to the commutative law of multiplication, my math is still correct.

695 * 0.8431666667 * 0.95 = 557 damage
695 * 0.95 * 0.8431666667 = 557 damage

The data visualization posted above is accurate.

SkaraMinoc · November 2021

MentalxHammer wrote: »

My apologies if any of my observations are incorrect, I would just like to be 100% sure on my knowledge.

No you're absolutely correct. It doesn't matter which order you multiply armor or mitigation because you get the same result. See my previous comment. This makes me happy because I didn't want to redo that line graph

MentalxHammer · November 2021

If we can conclude that armor based mitigation and % based mitigation are equally weighted in the multiplicative formula provided from this link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-21-03-2021 the mitigation from armor and flat % can be simplified to:

mitigation from armor and flat % = (1+armor mitigation)*(1+% mitigation)

From this we can interpret that the law of diminishing returns applies to either stat, and the optimal mitigation can be represented with the following equation:

sum(armor mitigation) = sum(% mitigation)

Let this inform our decision on whether to equip swift or pariah.

To put it more concisely (less concisely?), if you want optimal mitigation and you must choose between swift or pariah, sum the mitigation you currently have from flat % mitigation, then sum the mitigation from armor (%armormit=armor/660); observe the two sums, for optimal mitigation they should be equal. If you have much less % mitigation, swift will be stronger; if your mitigation from armor is less than your mitigation from flat % values, adding more armor is the correct approach to maximizing total mitigation.

SkaraMinoc · November 2021

MentalxHammer wrote: »

From this we can interpret that the law of diminishing returns applies to either stat, and the optimal mitigation can be represented with the following equation:

sum(armor mitigation) = sum(% mitigation)

Stay in the green (< 5% diff) for ideal min/max.

Green < 5%
Yellow 5-10%
Orange 10-15%

For example, Ironblood (30%) with 20k armor = 0.303% difference.

Here's an extended version for builds with very high damage reduction (> 50%):