defensive set beyond Pariah?

universal_wrath

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Remember that crest scales with max health and that you need 44k health to get the same healing from before blackwood, along with the harder proc condition (blocking exactly every 4 secs vs doing nothing) makes it sub par.

Armor master lasts for 10 secs and requires running an armor ability. So you need 5 pieces in whatever main armor you wear but also it needs to be used every 10 secs for max effectiveness. So running elude morph is less useful due to the 40 sec duration. Personally I can only see the use if you can't get pariah, or absolutely need to have the defensive set back barred.

that's exactly my problem...variety seems to be limited.

Depending on you class, they are several options. Eternal warrior, immortal warrior, armor master, orgunm scale, juggernaut, steadfast, pirate skeleton, imperuim, crimson, pariah, and the ultimate crutch set of all, Iron blood.

I really don't understand why people talk about pariah when it can be negated by pen or at some cases does not work if you are not already tanky, when iron blodd is the elephant in the room. You need to be tanky for pariah to work, because it works on stacking resist to avoid damage which can be negate easily by pen, if your base resist is low, pariah will hardly make a difference when it is fully activated, because things like blood thirsty and and excutioner exist. Iron blood on other hand works even when you are at full health, it provides a 50% flat damage reduction to everything for a messly 70% snare. Snare looks very bad on paper, but when you are running around a wall for kiting or even just standing still, you will see how the snare is negligable to the damage reduction of the this set..

Chrlynsch

ThePianist wrote: »

Pariah is mediocre. Yes you can get 40k+ armor but did everyone forget the max resistance cap in pvp? Also this set doesn’t reduce damage taken from crits ie the bombers running around Cyrodiil. You also don’t gain reduced damage from executes. Once your hp gets below a certain level, execute damage is still execute damage. Unless you’re in mist form or holding block, then that’s another story.

I still think Mazzatun and Juggernaut are still the best defensive sets, hands down. And both sets are one of the last few pre buff sets.

These two sets are literally a reincarnation skill. I don’t know if you guys have ever played the old dota 1. Skeleton King had this skill called reincarnation. You thought you bursted him down but nope, he came back to life.

In pvp I know people that run close to 20k armor Penetration. Having 40k armor will basically negate major breech keeping you at armor "cap".

YandereGirlfriend

Zabagad wrote: »

Spurius_Lucilius wrote: »

milllaurie wrote: »

Trial by fire. Shhhh.

I wonder, does it have a good uptime? On paper it doesn’t seem very good because elemental status effect is a very specific proc condition. I can see it have 100% uptime when you are fighting a MagDk, but it seems to be pretty much useless against stamina toons because it says “elemental” status effect...

At least it must work if you get one of the 49710 days of xxx effects

This is a low-key amazing observation. I would love if someone could test this.

Vizirith

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Spurius_Lucilius wrote: »

milllaurie wrote: »

Trial by fire. Shhhh.

I wonder, does it have a good uptime? On paper it doesn’t seem very good because elemental status effect is a very specific proc condition. I can see it have 100% uptime when you are fighting a MagDk, but it seems to be pretty much useless against stamina toons because it says “elemental” status effect...

At least it must work if you get one of the 49710 days of xxx effects

This is a low-key amazing observation. I would love if someone could test this.

Isn't this just a ui bug? I don't think it would count because whatever "check" the set runs would probably not be relying on what is just a ui issue.

taugrim

MrMazurski wrote: »

Currently, only pariah can guarantee you any protection (and Fortified Brass).
The rest of the heavy sets do not give you any additional defense, only punish you for the heavy set you wear. do not give you a chance to survive in the current high burst dmg meta.

taugrim wrote: »

This weekend I may try out Titanborn Strength, due to the boosts to pen and weapon damage as health drops. On paper, Titanborn Strength should pair up nicely with Mark of the Pariah, as the latter provides some durability as you get low on health. The main issue is I'd have to reconstruct or transmute to Well-Fitted on 3 armor pieces and transmute 2 jewelry pieces to Infused.

Yea, i too wanna test Titanborn Strength on ma StamDK.
Pariah - chest, legs, jewelry
Titanborn Strength - 2h sword, waist, hands, boots,
balrogh monster set. (medium)

I play an orc so I can easily pair it with the Warrior mundus for more dmg.
I want to give up penetration, as Titanborn + balrogh should give me enough of it. That is why I am focusing on the damage

I've been running Titanborn Strength for about 4 days. I really really like it, despite having Divines on the 3 TBS armor pieces (I don't have the transmute stones to blow 150 to switch to Well-Fitted).

The great thing is not only your damage is buffed as your health drops, but your healing goes up too (at least with Resolving Vigor, the weapon damage is irrelevant for Polar Wind healing).

TBS definitely pairs well with Pariah.

taugrim

ThePianist wrote: »

Pariah is mediocre. Yes you can get 40k+ armor but did everyone forget the max resistance cap in pvp? Also this set doesn’t reduce damage taken from crits ie the bombers running around Cyrodiil.

OK wow, so much wrong just in the first 3 sentences.

Competent PVP players stack some or a lot of pen. Even if you have 40k armor on paper, you'll be under the resist cap (~32k) when pen is factored in.

AFAIK, mitigation applies to incoming damage. So armor helps against crits. It's just not point-for-point as efficient at mitigating crits as impen is.

Vizirith

taugrim wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

Pariah is mediocre. Yes you can get 40k+ armor but did everyone forget the max resistance cap in pvp? Also this set doesn’t reduce damage taken from crits ie the bombers running around Cyrodiil.

OK wow, so much wrong just in the first 3 sentences.

Competent PVP players stack some or a lot of pen. Even if you have 40k armor on paper, you'll be under the resist cap (~32k) when pen is factored in.

AFAIK, mitigation applies to incoming damage. So armor helps against crits. It's just not point-for-point as efficient at mitigating crits as impen is.

Considering how easy it is to get alot of pen, I don’t think it really even possible to be sitting over resist cap most of the time. I guess maybe if you run juggernaut and pariah and are at very low health. Just pierce armor with a sharpened maul you sit at 15k pen.

katorga

Everyone running lots of pen, then % mitigation sets are better. I did mym in Spectre's eye backbar for major evasion with 100% uptime.

ThePianist

taugrim wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

Pariah is mediocre. Yes you can get 40k+ armor but did everyone forget the max resistance cap in pvp? Also this set doesn’t reduce damage taken from crits ie the bombers running around Cyrodiil.

OK wow, so much wrong just in the first 3 sentences.

Competent PVP players stack some or a lot of pen. Even if you have 40k armor on paper, you'll be under the resist cap (~32k) when pen is factored in.

AFAIK, mitigation applies to incoming damage. So armor helps against crits. It's just not point-for-point as efficient at mitigating crits as impen is.

Wrong. Potato’s stack pen. The competent people I know get their pen from Balorgh proc, cp passives, weapon traits, ect. My werewolf has 700 pen, and it still wrecks people. Look up PvP streamers like Kerk and KoG, look at how much pen they’re running. Little to none.

To get 40k armor from Pariah, what hp do you need to be in? It depends on what class your running Pariah on but I bet the hp would be 1 executioner away from getting deleted. Execute damage is still execute damage, and it will do more damage based on how much missing hp you have, with Pariah or without Pariah. Magsorc’s mages wrath or endless fury is also an execute.

I didn’t say Pariah was bad, I said it was mediocre. Something tells me you guys have been reading too much YT comment sections or zone chats on how Pariah will be meta. Traders who have Pariah sets to sell you? Yeah they will tell you all the things you want to hear. They are salesmen, and you guys bought the agenda lol. SMH

gamma71

So the best defensive set is.....idk juggernaut is still good. I'm playing stam DK I was thinking fortified brass also. I really don't wanna run pariah just because it's the so called meta now.

geonsocal

lag issues aside, juggernaut is a great - oh crap set...

years ago i used to love wearing the phoenix set...it was great for when you made a mistake or got blindsided...

Urzigurumash

ThePianist wrote: »

Also this set doesn’t reduce damage taken from crits ie the bombers running around Cyrodiil. You also don’t gain reduced damage from executes.

Source?

gariondavey

Urzigurumash wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

Also this set doesn’t reduce damage taken from crits ie the bombers running around Cyrodiil. You also don’t gain reduced damage from executes.

Source?

I think they mean it doesn't do more to prevent big crit damage than simply reducing damage dealt. But they also said things in this thread that I think are absolute rubbish so I'm pretty much disregarding anything they say.

fred4

geonsocal wrote: »

lag issues aside, juggernaut is a great - oh crap set...

years ago i used to love wearing the phoenix set...it was great for when you made a mistake or got blindsided...

I've been running Juggernaut for a while on an otherwise squishy build (magblade). I agree it's what the Phoenix set always wanted to be, but wasn't. Having used Juggernaut long term, I will say it has some issues, though. It frequently procs for no good reason, for example (but not always) when an NPC CCs you yet you are still at full health. On the other hand burst is now so high, players can hit you so hard and so instantly (stamsorc Overload gankers, <cough>) that Juggernaut never procs. A stamblade also got me down to 31% health in 1 GCD with a stun and in the next GCD I was dead. Juggernaut never pocced in that instance either. It excels against sustained damage, such as from a templar, but it can fail miserably against the very high burst that is now prevalent. The game is just not coded to catch on when everything happens in one or two GCDs. The healing nerf also means that you're not out of the woods when it does proc. However, for my purposes, there isn't anything better that I know, so I'm still running it.

Alucardo

I still think Reactive is worth looking into. When you get hit with a disabling effect, you take 33% less damage for 5 seconds. That's a lot of raw mitigation. It does have a 20 second cooldown, but if you've got decent healing on your build, lasting 15 seconds until it procs again shouldn't be too much of an issue.
If you're vamp, you'll have so much percentage based mitigation you'll heal more than you take damage. Still a worthy set imho.

fred4

universal_wrath wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Remember that crest scales with max health and that you need 44k health to get the same healing from before blackwood, along with the harder proc condition (blocking exactly every 4 secs vs doing nothing) makes it sub par.

Armor master lasts for 10 secs and requires running an armor ability. So you need 5 pieces in whatever main armor you wear but also it needs to be used every 10 secs for max effectiveness. So running elude morph is less useful due to the 40 sec duration. Personally I can only see the use if you can't get pariah, or absolutely need to have the defensive set back barred.

that's exactly my problem...variety seems to be limited.

Depending on you class, they are several options. Eternal warrior, immortal warrior, armor master, orgunm scale, juggernaut, steadfast, pirate skeleton, imperuim, crimson, pariah, and the ultimate crutch set of all, Iron blood.

I really don't understand why people talk about pariah when it can be negated by pen or at some cases does not work if you are not already tanky, when iron blodd is the elephant in the room. You need to be tanky for pariah to work, because it works on stacking resist to avoid damage which can be negate easily by pen, if your base resist is low, pariah will hardly make a difference when it is fully activated, because things like blood thirsty and and excutioner exist. Iron blood on other hand works even when you are at full health, it provides a 50% flat damage reduction to everything for a messly 70% snare. Snare looks very bad on paper, but when you are running around a wall for kiting or even just standing still, you will see how the snare is negligable to the damage reduction of the this set..

It really depends on your playstyle. I would personally never consider Ironblood (I guess I have to try it now), because I am not happy without speed (combinations of Swift, Wild Hunt, Race Against Time and so on) and dodge rolling. I hate heavy armor, I may hug walls temporarily, but I'm not someone who, for example, jams themselves between the wall and a staircase in IC for 5 minutes hoping to burst someone. That playstyle bores me. As you may guess I'm frequently playing nightblades or sorcs, but even on my stamsorc I've taken to wearing Pariah, because you get hit so hard otherwise. That stamsorc is currently wearing Snow Treaders by the way. Now if you told me those cancel out the Ironblood snare or perhaps Swift and other forms of speed offset it, I might suddenly be very interested .

I agree you have to stack resistances to around 30K at base to make Pariah work. On the other hand the occasions where resistances are completely mitigated via Corrosive or Onslaught are rare. Then there is the pesky fact of how the mitigation calculation works. Resistances are additive, other forms of mitigation are multiplicative. Resistances tend to be the single biggest factor in the multiplicative part of the calculation and adding to them has a disproportionately higher impact, the more you stack them. Having used Major Protection (Pirate Skeleton) when it was still at 30%, I agree that is in fact very good. Nonetheless stacking resistances can feel good too, better than on paper, whereas the 10% mitigation buffs you pick up here and there (Buffer of the Swift, various CP stars, and so on) tend to be pretty "meh" due to the way they get diluted when you stack them.

geonsocal

I agree it's what the Phoenix set always wanted to be, but wasn't.

i used to pair phoenix and VD (back when it procced with siege) on my mag sorc, i had no clue about set line stats, i just liked the set names (i wore affliction a lot too at the time) - even being pretty clueless, i knew it was a pretty gimmicky setup...

it only happened once, but someone thought they killed me, then the phoenix explosion killed them...

if you could hit a pot and hit streak quick enough after the phoenix proc, you could get out of some bad spots...i can't tell you how many times it saved me from siege or snipe...

Septimus_Magna

ThePianist wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

Pariah is mediocre. Yes you can get 40k+ armor but did everyone forget the max resistance cap in pvp? Also this set doesn’t reduce damage taken from crits ie the bombers running around Cyrodiil.

OK wow, so much wrong just in the first 3 sentences.

Competent PVP players stack some or a lot of pen. Even if you have 40k armor on paper, you'll be under the resist cap (~32k) when pen is factored in.

AFAIK, mitigation applies to incoming damage. So armor helps against crits. It's just not point-for-point as efficient at mitigating crits as impen is.

Wrong. Potato’s stack pen. The competent people I know get their pen from Balorgh proc, cp passives, weapon traits, ect. My werewolf has 700 pen, and it still wrecks people. Look up PvP streamers like Kerk and KoG, look at how much pen they’re running. Little to none.

Mathematically pen is the best way to increase damage (even in PVE) so saying that only potatoes stack pen is just a terrible over-simplification. Some PVP builds can work around pen but in most cases a sharpened weapon on the front bar is the best option in terms of dmg output, especially with the HA meta thats currently present.

Everyone in PVP is running at least 15k resistances so that amount of pen is pretty much always useful.

Stx

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

Pariah is mediocre. Yes you can get 40k+ armor but did everyone forget the max resistance cap in pvp? Also this set doesn’t reduce damage taken from crits ie the bombers running around Cyrodiil.

OK wow, so much wrong just in the first 3 sentences.

Competent PVP players stack some or a lot of pen. Even if you have 40k armor on paper, you'll be under the resist cap (~32k) when pen is factored in.

AFAIK, mitigation applies to incoming damage. So armor helps against crits. It's just not point-for-point as efficient at mitigating crits as impen is.

Wrong. Potato’s stack pen. The competent people I know get their pen from Balorgh proc, cp passives, weapon traits, ect. My werewolf has 700 pen, and it still wrecks people. Look up PvP streamers like Kerk and KoG, look at how much pen they’re running. Little to none.

Mathematically pen is the best way to increase damage (even in PVE) so saying that only potatoes stack pen is just a terrible over-simplification. Some PVP builds can work around pen but in most cases a sharpened weapon on the front bar is the best option in terms of dmg output, especially with the HA meta thats currently present.

Everyone in PVP is running at least 15k resistances so that amount of pen is pretty much always useful.

He wasn't saying not to use pen in your build, just get it from efficient sources like balorg, using a maul, etc. It's easier said than done for some classes, but on a nightblade for example you also get 3k for flanking, and you have major breach from mark if you choose plus physical damage single target procs minor breach.

I think he was just saying not to stack pen on set bonuses or mundus because it's easy to get other places.

Spurius_Lucilius

Ok, I tested Trial By Fire, and it indeed works with status effects from martial attack. I crafted 5 pieces and lets a stamina NB hit me with surprise attack, and my resistance went up, that makes it a great defensive set, especially against a DK, a sniper or a stamblade.

divnyi

geonsocal wrote: »

I agree it's what the Phoenix set always wanted to be, but wasn't.

i used to pair phoenix and VD (back when it procced with siege) on my mag sorc, i had no clue about set line stats, i just liked the set names (i wore affliction a lot too at the time) - even being pretty clueless, i knew it was a pretty gimmicky setup...

it only happened once, but someone thought they killed me, then the phoenix explosion killed them...

if you could hit a pot and hit streak quick enough after the phoenix proc, you could get out of some bad spots...i can't tell you how many times it saved me from siege or snipe...

I used Phoenix on lvl4 vampy, so it procs when you receive that insane damage bonus from being low, does damage and covers you from next 1-2 hits.

They ruined damage part with proc set scaling tho. It is a shame, I think it is one of the sets they could've left alone and no abuse would happen, as that's 1m cooldown.

YandereGirlfriend

Spurius_Lucilius wrote: »

Ok, I tested Trial By Fire, and it indeed works with status effects from martial attack. I crafted 5 pieces and lets a stamina NB hit me with surprise attack, and my resistance went up, that makes it a great defensive set, especially against a DK, a sniper or a stamblade.

Were you able to observe how the set reacted to any of those infinite duration bugged status effects?

geonsocal

divnyi wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

I agree it's what the Phoenix set always wanted to be, but wasn't.

i used to pair phoenix and VD (back when it procced with siege) on my mag sorc, i had no clue about set line stats, i just liked the set names (i wore affliction a lot too at the time) - even being pretty clueless, i knew it was a pretty gimmicky setup...

it only happened once, but someone thought they killed me, then the phoenix explosion killed them...

if you could hit a pot and hit streak quick enough after the phoenix proc, you could get out of some bad spots...i can't tell you how many times it saved me from siege or snipe...

I used Phoenix on lvl4 vampy, so it procs when you receive that insane damage bonus from being low, does damage and covers you from next 1-2 hits.

They ruined damage part with proc set scaling tho. It is a shame, I think it is one of the sets they could've left alone and no abuse would happen, as that's 1m cooldown.

my understanding is that it was popular with the pve folks for those dungeon no-death achievement runs...maybe that's why they nerfed it...

yes, another example of perfectly fine sets getting nerfed due to pve user set mechanic abuse

Spurius_Lucilius

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Spurius_Lucilius wrote: »

Ok, I tested Trial By Fire, and it indeed works with status effects from martial attack. I crafted 5 pieces and lets a stamina NB hit me with surprise attack, and my resistance went up, that makes it a great defensive set, especially against a DK, a sniper or a stamblade.

Were you able to observe how the set reacted to any of those infinite duration bugged status effects?

I tested it with duel. I'm gonna try it in cyro.

Stx

I'm coming back to the game after almost a year break. Lots of cool updates to old sets. I find the robes of the hist interesting. A nice reliable heal over time that would most likely be up constantly.

fred4

Spurius_Lucilius wrote: »

Ok, I tested Trial By Fire, and it indeed works with status effects from martial attack. I crafted 5 pieces and lets a stamina NB hit me with surprise attack, and my resistance went up, that makes it a great defensive set, especially against a DK, a sniper or a stamblade.

What? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Thank you! I know you have to test everything, but you just can't. Who has the time? When the description of the set implies it only works against one type of damage (magic), I automatically dismiss it for PvP. You don't know what you will be facing. You need to run skills and sets that have reasonably broad applicability. Good grief. Again, thank you!

Waffennacht

fred4 wrote: »

Spurius_Lucilius wrote: »

Ok, I tested Trial By Fire, and it indeed works with status effects from martial attack. I crafted 5 pieces and lets a stamina NB hit me with surprise attack, and my resistance went up, that makes it a great defensive set, especially against a DK, a sniper or a stamblade.

What? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Thank you! I know you have to test everything, but you just can't. Who has the time? When the description of the set implies it only works against one type of damage (magic), I automatically dismiss it for PvP. You don't know what you will be facing. You need to run skills and sets that have reasonably broad applicability. Good grief. Again, thank you!

Yeah, what would actually make the set good is if it triggered from status effects originating from yourself; I.e pirate skeleton, unfortunately it does not.

Edit: the set says elemental effects, thats all of em, not just magic ones

Joy_Division

Alucardo wrote: »

I still think Reactive is worth looking into. When you get hit with a disabling effect, you take 33% less damage for 5 seconds. That's a lot of raw mitigation. It does have a 20 second cooldown, but if you've got decent healing on your build, lasting 15 seconds until it procs again shouldn't be too much of an issue.
If you're vamp, you'll have so much percentage based mitigation you'll heal more than you take damage. Still a worthy set imho.

Too much downtime IMHO.

Alucardo

Joy_Division wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

I still think Reactive is worth looking into. When you get hit with a disabling effect, you take 33% less damage for 5 seconds. That's a lot of raw mitigation. It does have a 20 second cooldown, but if you've got decent healing on your build, lasting 15 seconds until it procs again shouldn't be too much of an issue.
If you're vamp, you'll have so much percentage based mitigation you'll heal more than you take damage. Still a worthy set imho.

Too much downtime IMHO.

For this update, yeah it probably is. Another solution to get similar mitigation with a higher uptime would be Ironblood. Then use Wild Hunt and accelerate to get around the movement speed penalty.

YandereGirlfriend

Alucardo wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

I still think Reactive is worth looking into. When you get hit with a disabling effect, you take 33% less damage for 5 seconds. That's a lot of raw mitigation. It does have a 20 second cooldown, but if you've got decent healing on your build, lasting 15 seconds until it procs again shouldn't be too much of an issue.
If you're vamp, you'll have so much percentage based mitigation you'll heal more than you take damage. Still a worthy set imho.

Too much downtime IMHO.

For this update, yeah it probably is. Another solution to get similar mitigation with a higher uptime would be Ironblood. Then use Wild Hunt and accelerate to get around the movement speed penalty.

The problem is that snares are multiplicative whereas speed enhancements are additive. So however fast you're moving that 50% snare is still going to bite hard.

You could be at movement speed cap and still get slowed down to regular speed. That's better than nothing but I can't imagine playing where you need both Sprint and Major Expedition and 3x Swift just to get back to basic jogging speed.