defensive set beyond Pariah?

MentalxHammer

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

From this we can interpret that the law of diminishing returns applies to either stat, and the optimal mitigation can be represented with the following equation:

sum(armor mitigation) = sum(% mitigation)

Stay in the green (< 5% diff) for ideal min/max.
Green < 5%
Yellow 5-10%
Orange 10-15%

For example, Ironblood (30%) with 20k armor = 0.303% difference.

I love this community

SkaraMinoc

MentalxHammer wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

From this we can interpret that the law of diminishing returns applies to either stat, and the optimal mitigation can be represented with the following equation:

sum(armor mitigation) = sum(% mitigation)

Stay in the green (< 5% diff) for ideal min/max.
Green < 5%
Yellow 5-10%
Orange 10-15%

For example, Ironblood (30%) with 20k armor = 0.303% difference.

I love this community

Hehe I got completely sidetracked and haven't gotten anything done in game tonight.

SkaraMinoc

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Let this inform our decision on whether to equip swift or pariah.

Swift actually loses 0.4506% mitigation from having armor and % damage reduction on the same set. 😂

divnyi

MentalxHammer wrote: »

mitigation from armor and flat % can be simplified to:

mitigation from armor and flat % = (1+armor mitigation)*(1+% mitigation)

How did you transform (1-%mitigation_1)*(1-%mitigation_2)*... to the formula above?
The formula is incorrect.

Try this input: Armor = 6600 (10%), 20% mitigation.

Correct:
(1-0.1)*(1-0.2) = 0.72

Incorrect:
(1+0.1)(1+0.2) = 1.32
1/1.32 = 0.7576

The only correct approach is to calculate for the specific build how much of the multiplier new set/trait/mundus/enchant adds. Because multipliers is what ultimately matters.

Like, 10% mitigation is 0.9 multiplier.

But 6600 armor is terra incognita, since you don't know current armor (and realistically will never know, given how buffs/debuffs will be applied, but you can calculate most expected state). Like, if you have 13200 armor and you add 6600, that's you turning 0.8 multi into 0.7 multi, thus you add 0.7/0.8=0.875 multiplier to the board with +6600 armor. And yeah, it's better than 0.9

Other approaches are pseudo-math that doesn't reflect the truth, because truth depends on the current state of the build.

gamma71

There's a lotta math goin on here that's good. But in real combat is what I judge my sets with. Just duel a friend multiple times and see what makes you live longer. For me pariah always seems better than swift.

Rhaegar75

I just wanted to thank you all for the contribution to this discussion: that’s why I love the ESO community………….even if the more in depth number crunching had me out of my depth 😂

Back on topic: in cyro CP I feel I have more room to manoeuvre away from pariah.

BGs are a different game and if I’m not super tanky I explode in seconds…it doesn’t help that I’m often in groups with people generating 2 million damage.
I feel that as a casual player I simply can’t compete

Brrrofski

So I'm back after about 6 months away.

Is the discussion for beat defensive set still pariah Vs swift?

How does trial by fire stack up? On paper, it seems like a high uptime. How does it compare to pariahs uptime? It does have a healing received line though, at the expense of armour. So at 100% health, it's only 4.6k resist higher than pariah, but at 1% it's 3k ish lower.

So at where you spend a lot of time, around 60-40% health (I do anyway, I don't play super defensive with heals and block and roll a lot), I guess they similar. But pariah is better when you really need it, right?

So it's pariah Vs swift still? Like a year ago, I did a lot of testing and I do think Pariah felt better to me and the way I play. So i might give pariah another try.

How's pirate skeleton these days? I could instead run that, drop masters inferno, and front bar a damage 5 piece. It's for a mageblade (no shields) runninng healthy offering, so the mending will offset the defile basically. 75% uptime of 10% reduction for a two piece still seems pretty good.

But is it better than pariah and masters inferno, that's the question. Which combo is the best of damage plus mitigation.

What's the transformation like now? Is it still annoying? Do you still have to wear that very specific outfit to not trigger the mini stun?

Also, does the major protection apply to the hit that triggers pirate skeleton proc? Or is it any damage after that?

Syiccal

I personally wouldn't use an entire minster set for 10% mitigation when can get it from slotting a skill these days

Brrrofski

Syiccal wrote: »

I personally wouldn't use an entire minster set for 10% mitigation when can get it from slotting a skill these days

I completely forgot about flare. Not quite caught up on last two patch notes.

I always said the same about Mighty Chudan.

Armour skills normally give another effect as well, which are often good buffs.

Slotting flare is hard on mageblade. Skill slots are already at a premium. Plus flare is kinda crap as an actual skill. And it's only on one bar I guess. So you lose defence when going offensive.

Interesting thought though, thanks for reminding me.

divnyi

Brrrofski wrote: »

And it's only on one bar I guess. So you lose defence when going offensive.

Which reminds me of Heartland Conqueror. Yes it's not close to Pariah, but it can give both good defensive backbar and offensive frontbar. And defensive backbar can come up with major and minor protection from slottable skills

Brrrofski

divnyi wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

And it's only on one bar I guess. So you lose defence when going offensive.

Which reminds me of Heartland Conqueror. Yes it's not close to Pariah, but it can give both good defensive backbar and offensive frontbar. And defensive backbar can come up with major and minor protection from slottable skills

Yeh, for sure a good a set.

Clever alchemist will be my back bar set though.

gamma71

They need to get rid of the minor defile on pirate skeleton even then I'd rather just run sithis. Or just slot flare and have major protection up all the time. I think ps should be like flare and have mp up all the time.

divnyi

Brrrofski wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

And it's only on one bar I guess. So you lose defence when going offensive.

Which reminds me of Heartland Conqueror. Yes it's not close to Pariah, but it can give both good defensive backbar and offensive frontbar. And defensive backbar can come up with major and minor protection from slottable skills

Yeh, for sure a good a set.

Clever alchemist will be my back bar set though.

Heartland is body set tho, not weapon set. You adjust traits on weapons independently.

Syiccal

Not necessarily ypu could have big pen on front or 18% powered on back for bigger heals

Iriidius

gamma71 wrote: »

They need to get rid of the minor defile on pirate skeleton even then I'd rather just run sithis. Or just slot flare and have major protection up all the time. I think ps should be like flare and have mp up all the time.

They have made all major buffs the same strenght as 4 set boni, so major protection should have same strength as major resolve but chudan gives major resolve unconditional and 1 setboni max hp, while pirate skelleton major protection has to be procced and also gives you a negative effect and doesnt gives you an extra set boni. When rebalancing buffs ZOS ignored how difficult they are to get im many cases.

EF321

What about gear traits currently?

Rhaegar75

I think the combination pariah + heartland conq, at least for some classes like magplar, offer variety of options and good defence.
Shame you’d have to chose between a monster set and a mythic

MEBengalsFan2001

Pariah should be adjusted so that the 5th piece bonus is not applied until your health drops below 50%. It would push more people to other sets.

Iriidius

There is already a set that only gives resistance under 60%, it is called orgnums scale. Pariah is only meta because ZoS nerfed most other good defense sets and made it so difficult to survive without building tanky. Eternal Vigor, Alessia, Orgnums Scale and Crimson Twilight were more popular than pariah before they got nerfed. Other sets like Crest of Cyrodiil are unusable on 30k hp char because i need 44k hp to get pre hp scaling value. If insteat of nerfing Pariah other nerfed sets were buffed again it would also push more players to other sets.

moleculardrugs

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Pariah should be adjusted so that the 5th piece bonus is not applied until your health drops below 50%. It would push more people to other sets.

I have mostly vampire builds and Pariah helps a lot with our survivability once we get into later V stages because our health recovery is basically 60% at Stage 3 for undead and 0% for stage 4…

Minno

::Magplar with transmutation enters chat::

"Hello fellow PvP mitigation set enthusiasts!"

Minno

I updated TaylorMB's defensive spreadsheet. Basic updating and I hope his backmath is still right, this was supposed to be for Murkmire so I assume some stuff might be wrong on the backend (might not include that 10% everyone gets now).

Anyway I have the following for overall mitigation in order or worst to best (with 19k average base resists, against 16k pen and 1.75 CHD modifer so it's very aggressive):

1. Base resist = 9.46% (Jumps to 23% with major evasion)
2. Mighty Chudan 1pc = 11.58%
3. Bloodspawn = 13.23%
4. 1pc Pirate 1pc Chudan = 13.69%
5. Transmutation = 14.29%
6. Impreg = 15.16%
7. 2pc Pirate and Ironblood = 16%
8. Reactive Armor = 16.93%
9. Wizard Reposte = 18.51%
10. Fort brass = 18.62%
11. Heartland Conq = 18.76% (assuming that tooltip means it turns defending trait into a 6.5k resist?)
12. Steadfast hero = 18.92%
13. Mighty Chudan 2pc (Assuming 100% uptime on armor buff instead of varied in stressful pvp conditions) = 20.05%
14. Flare Skill = 20.42% Assuming 100% uptime. 80% gets your 18.65%.)
15. Armor Master = 21.29% (33.10% if running shuffle)
16. Pariah = 23%

Pariah is the only set to match the values we saw around 2018-2019 before the massive nerfs to things like major protection or the sets themselves. And this matches everyone saying pariah is the only decent mitigation set left. These sets also dropped in value because crit resist took a nose dive and the values here are with 7 impen traits. Blocking put all the values around equal to each other since block is such a strong mechanic for mitigation and the law of diminishing returns states one cannot reach 100% regardless (but on these the values were 63-67% with block depending on the set picked; base resist with block was 63%!!!).

Conclustion:
- pariah #1 if you want raw mitigation
- wizard reposte if you find yourself taking alot of crits (also has 1 regen line and 1 spell power line so you can technically swap out 129 regen and 129 spell power around to other areas)
- steadfast hero is still good since 10s duration with 12s cooldown puts it at 83% uptime? (someone want to confirm for me, it used to be 50%)
- fort brass is cheap version of armor master and heartland an even cheaper version as long as you run defending.
- armor master is likely higher if you can run a shield or shuffle. 100% uptime on major evasion puts this set at 33% which beats out Pariah for specific AOE attacks, but alot of these jump if you can get that on other sets (wizard jumps to 30% with major evasion, pariah likely to beat armor master if you running shuffle anyway)
- 2pc pirate is really cheap considering the nerfs it got. Makes options under it obsolete. I wouldn't run ironblood.
- base resists of 19k average with block weapon and full dmg sets VERY viable.
- Base resit of 19k with major evasion is competitive at 23%
- backbar flare is broken lol

Rhaegar75

How do you find having to give up a monster set or a mythic when you use sets like pariah?

MEBengalsFan2001

I personally rather run a set like Kynmarcher over Pariah. Pariah does one thing well and that is raise your defense stat. It doesn't add anything to you offensive. Now Kynmarcher can do both and IMO is a better set. Nothing better than dropping your oppents defense, reduce their healing, increase their damage taken or reduce their damage output. IMO, debuffs to you opponent are better than some defensive stats that maybe let you live a bit longer.

Minno

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I personally rather run a set like Kynmarcher over Pariah. Pariah does one thing well and that is raise your defense stat. It doesn't add anything to you offensive. Now Kynmarcher can do both and IMO is a better set. Nothing better than dropping your oppents defense, reduce their healing, increase their damage taken or reduce their damage output. IMO, debuffs to you opponent are better than some defensive stats that maybe let you live a bit longer.

yea they are just sets to help you learn the stamina cost counters. Going from a 9% rated mitigation to 18-23% is huge when you can't seem to time block or dodges well (lag especially).

2x or 3x dps builds are much better, but you are at mercy of lag ruining your block or dodge. And if you are stuck on your non-block weapon when stunned, you better hope your heal over time casts are on point.

Iriidius

If i keep my hots up and use active defense i still get killed in seconds if i dont wear pariah and even if i wear pariah many players can ignore all my defense and pressure me to death 1v1.

Minno

Iriidius wrote: »

If i keep my hots up and use active defense i still get killed in seconds if i dont wear pariah and even if i wear pariah many players can ignore all my defense and pressure me to death 1v1.

Then your build/playstyle needs pariah. Nothing wrong with that!

Soris

Iriidius wrote: »

If i keep my hots up and use active defense i still get killed in seconds if i dont wear pariah and even if i wear pariah many players can ignore all my defense and pressure me to death 1v1.

I think Pariah is better for using when you have already capped your armor. Like if you have over 30k armor before even pariah procs.

If you dont have capped armor by default, then probably Swift set is better.

MEBengalsFan2001

Minno wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I personally rather run a set like Kynmarcher over Pariah. Pariah does one thing well and that is raise your defense stat. It doesn't add anything to you offensive. Now Kynmarcher can do both and IMO is a better set. Nothing better than dropping your oppents defense, reduce their healing, increase their damage taken or reduce their damage output. IMO, debuffs to you opponent are better than some defensive stats that maybe let you live a bit longer.

2x or 3x dps builds are much better, but you are at mercy of lag ruining your block or dodge. And if you are stuck on your non-block weapon when stunned, you better hope your heal over time casts are on point.

IMO Pariah needs to be fixed. It provides way to much in armor. I think it shouldn't provide any additional benefit until 50% and the cap of 10K armor it provides should be reduced down to around 8500 or so. The set would still have a place but it wouldn't be the defensive set crown jewel that it is.

moleculardrugs wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Pariah should be adjusted so that the 5th piece bonus is not applied until your health drops below 50%. It would push more people to other sets.

I have mostly vampire builds and Pariah helps a lot with our survivability once we get into later V stages because our health recovery is basically 60% at Stage 3 for undead and 0% for stage 4…

You don't need pariah as a vampire; you have mist and the undead passive. I quit being a vampire because it was too much cheese for me going against other players given the damage reduction vampires get. When I see other players hit mist, they are added to my list of players to avoid because I don't have the time to deal with players that don't want to stay and fight but rather run away and hide.

IMO Silverbolt should do double damage to both werewolf and vampires. The morph Silvershard should be renamed to Silversteak and kill vampires if a critical hit is landed and Silverleash should kill werewolves if a critical hit is landed.

I would also make it so that the Fighter guild is available only if the player is a mortal.

Iriidius

Pariah is rarely used in cp and in nocp noproc there is not much else you want to slot. Proc sets including most monstersets are disabled so monsterset, frontbarset, backbarset mythic builds are limited, while pariah is usually on both bars. If they nerf Pariah, probably you will ask for buffer of the swift or fortified brass nerfs next.
Critical strikes of silversteak and silverleash oneshoting vampires and werewolfes would be extremely unbalanced, no skill in the game should automatically instakill a player and no skill like this ever existed in the game and when inferno heavy attack or overload elemental weapon crystal weapon stamsorcs could oneshoot players, they complained very much. Double damage would already be extremely strong. Werewolfs are weaker than mortals when transformed anyway despite beeing an ulti and not worth using atm and vanpires are also used mainly for undead passive . Werewolfes cant use dawnbreaker while transformed, untransformed they shouldnt have any disadvantages because they also dont have any advantages.