McTaterskins wrote: »You're looking at the wrong problem.
Its not a particular class that's op. (well, not entirely - there are some* minor imbalances yet)
It is healing.
Healing is OP. - Especially when it gets its bonuses from the same stats that improve damage.
Healing
The problem with healing right now is that its power scaling goes hand in hand with damage power scaling. My proposed solution would go as follows:
1. Heals no longer scale from Spell/Weapon Damage, just Max Magicka/Stamina
(Damage scaling can be left alone for now, this just focuses on healing)
2. Decrease the potency of all heals by 10-15%.
(By all heals, I mean all skills whereby pressing X and spending Y resources you give/gain a numerical A health. Heals based on % damage done are not included here).
3. Increase the potency of all sources of % Healing Done by 10-20%.
(The amount required to supplement for blanket nerf to heals)
This way, there becomes specific build criteria that are almost required in order to get max healing power. It still leaves reasonable healing power for self-survival in PVE and PVP when solo, but requires a little more specific building for stronger healing. (For instance, Powered on a back bar weapon might be desirable for stronger back bar heals.)
Urzigurumash wrote: »Well that didn't take long. Looking forward to the first ever DK meta on Console.
Sounds to me what the StamBlades in this thread are really asking for is a nerf to Unnatural Movement so they can cure their Stage 4.
Read:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/576328/what-is-the-most-difficult-annoying-class-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-blackwood-meta-edition/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp/p1
Urzigurumash wrote: »Well that didn't take long. Looking forward to the first ever DK meta on Console.
Sounds to me what the StamBlades in this thread are really asking for is a nerf to Unnatural Movement so they can cure their Stage 4.
Read:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/576328/what-is-the-most-difficult-annoying-class-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-blackwood-meta-edition/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp/p1
You linked all the threads, I love it
I love the DK changes that came. The OP is complaining about stuff DK could already do before the update because ZOS didn't change Coagulating Blood or Inhale, and the healing from the Power Lash is essentially the same and requires the DK to land the hit. Now it's been brought up to spec with everyone else so they're not push overs, so of course this strength will look "over powered" until you use anti-DK tactics that still work. Purging their DoTs, dodging their whips, and blocking Leap.
Excuse me? Outside 1v1 falls short? No they don't, DK is most op self healing tank atm and Templar too, u guys play with a cheat basically. This absolutely recks balance atm and makes PvP frustrating. What is point to attack tank that makes more damage than DD and who heals full with a second and keeps all he's sustain? WtH? Falls short...????????
Urzigurumash wrote: »/closethreadUrzigurumash wrote: »Well that didn't take long. Looking forward to the first ever DK meta on Console.
Sounds to me what the StamBlades in this thread are really asking for is a nerf to Unnatural Movement so they can cure their Stage 4.
Read:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/576328/what-is-the-most-difficult-annoying-class-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-blackwood-meta-edition/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp/p1
You linked all the threads, I love it
I love the DK changes that came. The OP is complaining about stuff DK could already do before the update because ZOS didn't change Coagulating Blood or Inhale, and the healing from the Power Lash is essentially the same and requires the DK to land the hit. Now it's been brought up to spec with everyone else so they're not push overs, so of course this strength will look "over powered" until you use anti-DK tactics that still work. Purging their DoTs, dodging their whips, and blocking Leap.
Credits to @LightYagami for compiling that list in older threads.
Few other points:
1. If most players are DK, how can you tell whether they're OP compared to other classes?
2. DK and Templar have both always been in a position to be a potential counter to NB, since both classes are good at blockcasting and NB's strength comes in the form of landing only a few direct damage hits - so it is not difficult to block the entirety of their "rotation" if we can react in time.
3. MagDK is a hard counter to Vampirism.
4. Since it's only StamNBs complaining in this thread, and since hard counters are designed to allow specs to have a particular strength that other classes do not have without being entirely overpowered, perhaps it is better that all hard counters to Vampire NBs are removed, and accordingly all unique strengths are taken away from the class, so it can be simply be known as the mediocre class, the classic RPG "Human", not good at anything, not bad at anything. If you don't know which class you want to play, but don't want to be bothered by hard counters, play NB. Once you figure out a playstyle you like, pick a class which has strengths but suffers hard counters.
That last statement was extremely facetious. I'm not even on the new patch so I have no idea if the allegations are remotely accurate - but I'm well aware of how many patches in history MagDK was regarded as stronger in PvP than StamNB. For Solo Overworld on Xbox, it's precisely 0 patches.
Was Snipe over-nerfed? Maybe not at the time, but in the present meta (or last patch for you guys on PC), yes, I think it was overnerfed given the strength of other forms of ranged direct damage.
McTaterskins wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »/closethreadUrzigurumash wrote: »Well that didn't take long. Looking forward to the first ever DK meta on Console.
Sounds to me what the StamBlades in this thread are really asking for is a nerf to Unnatural Movement so they can cure their Stage 4.
Read:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/576328/what-is-the-most-difficult-annoying-class-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-blackwood-meta-edition/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp/p1
You linked all the threads, I love it
I love the DK changes that came. The OP is complaining about stuff DK could already do before the update because ZOS didn't change Coagulating Blood or Inhale, and the healing from the Power Lash is essentially the same and requires the DK to land the hit. Now it's been brought up to spec with everyone else so they're not push overs, so of course this strength will look "over powered" until you use anti-DK tactics that still work. Purging their DoTs, dodging their whips, and blocking Leap.
Credits to @LightYagami for compiling that list in older threads.
Few other points:
1. If most players are DK, how can you tell whether they're OP compared to other classes?
2. DK and Templar have both always been in a position to be a potential counter to NB, since both classes are good at blockcasting and NB's strength comes in the form of landing only a few direct damage hits - so it is not difficult to block the entirety of their "rotation" if we can react in time.
3. MagDK is a hard counter to Vampirism.
4. Since it's only StamNBs complaining in this thread, and since hard counters are designed to allow specs to have a particular strength that other classes do not have without being entirely overpowered, perhaps it is better that all hard counters to Vampire NBs are removed, and accordingly all unique strengths are taken away from the class, so it can be simply be known as the mediocre class, the classic RPG "Human", not good at anything, not bad at anything. If you don't know which class you want to play, but don't want to be bothered by hard counters, play NB. Once you figure out a playstyle you like, pick a class which has strengths but suffers hard counters.
That last statement was extremely facetious. I'm not even on the new patch so I have no idea if the allegations are remotely accurate - but I'm well aware of how many patches in history MagDK was regarded as stronger in PvP than StamNB. For Solo Overworld on Xbox, it's precisely 0 patches.
Was Snipe over-nerfed? Maybe not at the time, but in the present meta (or last patch for you guys on PC), yes, I think it was overnerfed given the strength of other forms of ranged direct damage.
Never understood the StamNB buzz. I've been playing one for the last few weeks. It's fun and I'm starting to do ok at it. Its well setup.
That being said, I have never once feared a nightblade on any of my non nightblade characters. Not during any given patch. I have played Mag DK, Magplar, and Stamden the most. While having 1-2 of each class played in cycles otherwise.
The same moment they nerfed the Stamden turtle heal, they added/increased templar turtle. But it's not entirely overbearing depending on the situation. - Again, healing in general is just too strong anyway.
The only insufficiency I have ever really found on my Mag DK is sustain. So in that regard i'm looking forward to patch hitting console. On the other hand - I also know full well that the change to whip is a bit overtuned at a glance. Without being cc'd, i'll be able to get 5-7 of them off on someone after a foss, leap, or talon. - But again, healing in general is just overtuned and the patch it not out on console yet so too soon to tell.
No, they're all nightblades. They were used to getting easy ganks and are now finding they actually need to, you know, fight people. And apparently can't...
No, they're all nightblades. They were used to getting easy ganks and are now finding they actually need to, you know, fight people. And apparently can't...
No, they're all nightblades. They were used to getting easy ganks and are now finding they actually need to, you know, fight people. And apparently can't...
I just want to tell that playing a Nightblade is very difficult, they are squishy and they rely on ganks.
It is nonsense to claim that they can not fight if they do not fight you 1v1 when you are on your DK and buffs on with reflects etc... Have you actually tried nightblade? I play my nightblade like I would play MK11.
If I get a hit with one leab, I am dead. OFC, I can build brawler but this is not Nightblade anymore, then I am crappy wannabe DK.
Anyways, if heal is it's own stat, things would be more balanced. Then healers are healers, tanks are tanks and DDs are DDs.
Atm, everyone are healing, tanking and doing insane damage same time.
This is messing this game up big time.
I don't even care if some class is stronger than other but geeez, unkillable? No thanks, this is not how PVP should be.
What is this? Classes made for 5 year olds so they can safely roam Cyrodiil?
Tell me, how is this normal that DK had 2mil damage done, 0 deaths at the end of match while Sorc had 1mil and best NB was around 700k damage done with 10 deaths and only few kills.
What is the point of this game anymore if some classes are that strong?
McTaterskins wrote: »You're looking at the wrong problem.
Its not a particular class that's op. (well, not entirely - there are some* minor imbalances yet)
It is healing.
Healing is OP. - Especially when it gets its bonuses from the same stats that improve damage.
TheEndBringer wrote: »It all comes down to this. If there's a class that can built to be a tank while also dealing immense damage, there needs to be an adjustment. They don't have to nerf DK, templars or necros directly. They just need to be a spectrum. On one end, full damage. On the other, full tank. Right now you can build your DK/Templar/Necro to be a high health, high armor tank while still landing ultimate group wipes or ridiculous executes. It's an easy fix. Add a damage debuff to battle spirit based on combined health+armor.
Why both? Because players are clever. If you base it on armor, they stack health. Base it on health, they'll stack armor.
techyeshic wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »It all comes down to this. If there's a class that can built to be a tank while also dealing immense damage, there needs to be an adjustment. They don't have to nerf DK, templars or necros directly. They just need to be a spectrum. On one end, full damage. On the other, full tank. Right now you can build your DK/Templar/Necro to be a high health, high armor tank while still landing ultimate group wipes or ridiculous executes. It's an easy fix. Add a damage debuff to battle spirit based on combined health+armor.
Why both? Because players are clever. If you base it on armor, they stack health. Base it on health, they'll stack armor.
That sort of creates a game that favors classes that have skills to avoid damage entirely; doesn't it? Like cloak?
techyeshic wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »It all comes down to this. If there's a class that can built to be a tank while also dealing immense damage, there needs to be an adjustment. They don't have to nerf DK, templars or necros directly. They just need to be a spectrum. On one end, full damage. On the other, full tank. Right now you can build your DK/Templar/Necro to be a high health, high armor tank while still landing ultimate group wipes or ridiculous executes. It's an easy fix. Add a damage debuff to battle spirit based on combined health+armor.
Why both? Because players are clever. If you base it on armor, they stack health. Base it on health, they'll stack armor.
That sort of creates a game that favors classes that have skills to avoid damage entirely; doesn't it? Like cloak?
TheEndBringer wrote: »It all comes down to this. If there's a class that can built to be a tank while also dealing immense damage, there needs to be an adjustment. They don't have to nerf DK, templars or necros directly. They just need to be a spectrum. On one end, full damage. On the other, full tank. Right now you can build your DK/Templar/Necro to be a high health, high armor tank while still landing ultimate group wipes or ridiculous executes. It's an easy fix. Add a damage debuff to battle spirit based on combined health+armor.
Why both? Because players are clever. If you base it on armor, they stack health. Base it on health, they'll stack armor.
Urzigurumash wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »It all comes down to this. If there's a class that can built to be a tank while also dealing immense damage, there needs to be an adjustment. They don't have to nerf DK, templars or necros directly. They just need to be a spectrum. On one end, full damage. On the other, full tank. Right now you can build your DK/Templar/Necro to be a high health, high armor tank while still landing ultimate group wipes or ridiculous executes. It's an easy fix. Add a damage debuff to battle spirit based on combined health+armor.
Why both? Because players are clever. If you base it on armor, they stack health. Base it on health, they'll stack armor.
Where caution must be exercised is that it remains viable - or even meta for these classes - to run DK, and the imposter tank classes, in a tank like way.
Otherwise, in all Medium, with a Bow, StamDK is just a "Poison Rogue", a low grade NB.
This isn't what most of us who main DK want, in all of our years of advocating for buffs to our class rarely did we suggest "We don't want to play Poison Rogue, so nerf the Rogue playstyle altogether"
Before Necro, wasn't NB capable of stacking the most mitigation, with the most Ult Gen? Telling DKs they should be happy to be running as a Rogue to be competitive could be flipped, NBs should be happy running as brawler tanks like the rest of us.
What sort of "balance" do we like? All things the same color, or all colors equally vibrant?
Let's be clear, when I say "in a tank like way", I mean in a way that maximally frustrates the plots of ranged Sorcs and NBs. In a way that will not please a Ranged Ganker. That's the whole point - to achieve balance without homogenization.
If Melee is best ran at 20k HP, 15k Resistances, and so is an Archer or a Ranged Mage - then melee skills must hit substantially harder than anything which is achievable at range, or there's no point to playing Melee. Look at the state of a Bow Frontbar in PvP - it's not great in my opinion, does anybody run the Asylum Bow ever? Right now there's room for it to be buffed, that there probably wasn't the patch the revised Champion system debuted.