Okay when Mana dk nerf comes?

McTaterskins

You're looking at the wrong problem.

Its not a particular class that's op. (well, not entirely - there are some* minor imbalances yet)

It is healing.

Healing is OP. - Especially when it gets its bonuses from the same stats that improve damage.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

McTaterskins wrote: »

You're looking at the wrong problem.

Its not a particular class that's op. (well, not entirely - there are some* minor imbalances yet)

It is healing.

Healing is OP. - Especially when it gets its bonuses from the same stats that improve damage.

You know I think literally everyone thinks healing should have its own stat, but for whatever reason Zos have never done the obvious. I think the self heal only skills can stay scaling off WD/SD, but the ones that can hit allies should scale off a new Healing power stat. Doing this would fix so many issues all at once and not take away self heals from dps in pve situations.

ealdwin

My thoughts from a different thread:

Healing
The problem with healing right now is that its power scaling goes hand in hand with damage power scaling. My proposed solution would go as follows:

1. Heals no longer scale from Spell/Weapon Damage, just Max Magicka/Stamina
(Damage scaling can be left alone for now, this just focuses on healing)

2. Decrease the potency of all heals by 10-15%.
(By all heals, I mean all skills whereby pressing X and spending Y resources you give/gain a numerical A health. Heals based on % damage done are not included here).

3. Increase the potency of all sources of % Healing Done by 10-20%.
(The amount required to supplement for blanket nerf to heals)

This way, there becomes specific build criteria that are almost required in order to get max healing power. It still leaves reasonable healing power for self-survival in PVE and PVP when solo, but requires a little more specific building for stronger healing. (For instance, Powered on a back bar weapon might be desirable for stronger back bar heals.)

Urzigurumash

Well that didn't take long. Looking forward to the first ever DK meta on Console.

Sounds to me what the StamBlades in this thread are really asking for is a nerf to Unnatural Movement so they can cure their Stage 4.

Read:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/576328/what-is-the-most-difficult-annoying-class-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-blackwood-meta-edition/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp/p1

Vevvev

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Well that didn't take long. Looking forward to the first ever DK meta on Console.

Sounds to me what the StamBlades in this thread are really asking for is a nerf to Unnatural Movement so they can cure their Stage 4.

Read:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/576328/what-is-the-most-difficult-annoying-class-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-blackwood-meta-edition/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp/p1

You linked all the threads, I love it

I love the DK changes that came. The OP is complaining about stuff DK could already do before the update because ZOS didn't change Coagulating Blood or Inhale, and the healing from the Power Lash is essentially the same and requires the DK to land the hit. Now it's been brought up to spec with everyone else so they're not push overs, so of course this strength will look "over powered" until you use anti-DK tactics that still work. Purging their DoTs, dodging their whips, and blocking Leap.

TheImperfect

Please leave dk alone, my magdk vampire pve character is happy as she is.

Urzigurumash

Vevvev wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Well that didn't take long. Looking forward to the first ever DK meta on Console.

Sounds to me what the StamBlades in this thread are really asking for is a nerf to Unnatural Movement so they can cure their Stage 4.

Read:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/576328/what-is-the-most-difficult-annoying-class-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-blackwood-meta-edition/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp/p1

You linked all the threads, I love it

I love the DK changes that came. The OP is complaining about stuff DK could already do before the update because ZOS didn't change Coagulating Blood or Inhale, and the healing from the Power Lash is essentially the same and requires the DK to land the hit. Now it's been brought up to spec with everyone else so they're not push overs, so of course this strength will look "over powered" until you use anti-DK tactics that still work. Purging their DoTs, dodging their whips, and blocking Leap.

Credit to @LightYagami for compiling that list in older threads.

Few other points:

1. If most players are DK, how can you tell whether they're OP compared to other classes?

2. DK and Templar have both always been in a position to be a potential counter to NB, since both classes are good at blockcasting and NB's strength comes in the form of landing only a few direct damage hits - so it is not difficult to block the entirety of their "rotation" if we can react in time.

3. MagDK is a hard counter to Vampirism.

4. Since it's only StamNBs complaining in this thread, and since hard counters are designed to allow specs to have a particular strength that other classes do not have without being entirely overpowered, perhaps it is better that all hard counters to Vampire NBs are removed, and accordingly all unique strengths are taken away from the class, so it can be simply be known as the mediocre class, the classic RPG "Human", not good at anything, not bad at anything. If you don't know which class you want to play, but don't want to be bothered by hard counters, play NB. Once you figure out a playstyle you like, pick a class which has strengths but suffers hard counters.

That last statement was extremely facetious. I'm not even on the new patch so I have no idea if the allegations are remotely accurate - but I'm well aware of how many patches in history MagDK was regarded as stronger in PvP than StamNB. For Solo Overworld on Xbox, it's precisely 0 patches.

Was Snipe over-nerfed? Maybe not at the time, but in the present meta (or last patch for you guys on PC), yes, I think it was overnerfed given the strength of other forms of ranged direct damage. Refer back to the hard counter subject on how it would be possible to have Snipe be strong without turning Cyrodiil into "snipers only".

baselesschart

TheS1X wrote: »

Excuse me? Outside 1v1 falls short? No they don't, DK is most op self healing tank atm and Templar too, u guys play with a cheat basically. This absolutely recks balance atm and makes PvP frustrating. What is point to attack tank that makes more damage than DD and who heals full with a second and keeps all he's sustain? WtH? Falls short...????????

I don't actively play mag dk so I'm using very limited knowledge. What I do know is that if you've ever played mag dk, you'll know they struggle heavily with sustain, just putting that out there. I don't know who you're fighting but none of the mag dks I'm fighting are "tanks", they do great damage and have powerful heals but they still take massive damage from my combo

McTaterskins

Urzigurumash wrote: »

/closethread

Vevvev wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Well that didn't take long. Looking forward to the first ever DK meta on Console.

Sounds to me what the StamBlades in this thread are really asking for is a nerf to Unnatural Movement so they can cure their Stage 4.

Read:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/576328/what-is-the-most-difficult-annoying-class-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-blackwood-meta-edition/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp/p1

You linked all the threads, I love it

I love the DK changes that came. The OP is complaining about stuff DK could already do before the update because ZOS didn't change Coagulating Blood or Inhale, and the healing from the Power Lash is essentially the same and requires the DK to land the hit. Now it's been brought up to spec with everyone else so they're not push overs, so of course this strength will look "over powered" until you use anti-DK tactics that still work. Purging their DoTs, dodging their whips, and blocking Leap.

Credits to @LightYagami for compiling that list in older threads.

Few other points:

1. If most players are DK, how can you tell whether they're OP compared to other classes?

2. DK and Templar have both always been in a position to be a potential counter to NB, since both classes are good at blockcasting and NB's strength comes in the form of landing only a few direct damage hits - so it is not difficult to block the entirety of their "rotation" if we can react in time.

3. MagDK is a hard counter to Vampirism.

4. Since it's only StamNBs complaining in this thread, and since hard counters are designed to allow specs to have a particular strength that other classes do not have without being entirely overpowered, perhaps it is better that all hard counters to Vampire NBs are removed, and accordingly all unique strengths are taken away from the class, so it can be simply be known as the mediocre class, the classic RPG "Human", not good at anything, not bad at anything. If you don't know which class you want to play, but don't want to be bothered by hard counters, play NB. Once you figure out a playstyle you like, pick a class which has strengths but suffers hard counters.

That last statement was extremely facetious. I'm not even on the new patch so I have no idea if the allegations are remotely accurate - but I'm well aware of how many patches in history MagDK was regarded as stronger in PvP than StamNB. For Solo Overworld on Xbox, it's precisely 0 patches.

Was Snipe over-nerfed? Maybe not at the time, but in the present meta (or last patch for you guys on PC), yes, I think it was overnerfed given the strength of other forms of ranged direct damage.

Never understood the StamNB buzz. I've been playing one for the last few weeks. It's fun and I'm starting to do ok at it. Its well setup.

That being said, I have never once feared a nightblade on any of my non nightblade characters. Not during any given patch. I have played Mag DK, Magplar, and Stamden the most. While having 1-2 of each class played in cycles otherwise.

The same moment they nerfed the Stamden turtle heal, they added/increased templar turtle. But it's not entirely overbearing depending on the situation. - Again, healing in general is just too strong anyway.

The only insufficiency I have ever really found on my Mag DK is sustain. So in that regard i'm looking forward to patch hitting console. On the other hand - I also know full well that the change to whip is a bit overtuned at a glance. Without being cc'd, i'll be able to get 5-7 of them off on someone after a foss, leap, or talon. - But again, healing in general is just overtuned and the patch it not out on console yet so too soon to tell.

Urzigurumash

McTaterskins wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

/closethread

Vevvev wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Well that didn't take long. Looking forward to the first ever DK meta on Console.

Sounds to me what the StamBlades in this thread are really asking for is a nerf to Unnatural Movement so they can cure their Stage 4.

Read:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/576328/what-is-the-most-difficult-annoying-class-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-blackwood-meta-edition/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp/p1

You linked all the threads, I love it

I love the DK changes that came. The OP is complaining about stuff DK could already do before the update because ZOS didn't change Coagulating Blood or Inhale, and the healing from the Power Lash is essentially the same and requires the DK to land the hit. Now it's been brought up to spec with everyone else so they're not push overs, so of course this strength will look "over powered" until you use anti-DK tactics that still work. Purging their DoTs, dodging their whips, and blocking Leap.

Credits to @LightYagami for compiling that list in older threads.

Few other points:

1. If most players are DK, how can you tell whether they're OP compared to other classes?

2. DK and Templar have both always been in a position to be a potential counter to NB, since both classes are good at blockcasting and NB's strength comes in the form of landing only a few direct damage hits - so it is not difficult to block the entirety of their "rotation" if we can react in time.

3. MagDK is a hard counter to Vampirism.

4. Since it's only StamNBs complaining in this thread, and since hard counters are designed to allow specs to have a particular strength that other classes do not have without being entirely overpowered, perhaps it is better that all hard counters to Vampire NBs are removed, and accordingly all unique strengths are taken away from the class, so it can be simply be known as the mediocre class, the classic RPG "Human", not good at anything, not bad at anything. If you don't know which class you want to play, but don't want to be bothered by hard counters, play NB. Once you figure out a playstyle you like, pick a class which has strengths but suffers hard counters.

That last statement was extremely facetious. I'm not even on the new patch so I have no idea if the allegations are remotely accurate - but I'm well aware of how many patches in history MagDK was regarded as stronger in PvP than StamNB. For Solo Overworld on Xbox, it's precisely 0 patches.

Was Snipe over-nerfed? Maybe not at the time, but in the present meta (or last patch for you guys on PC), yes, I think it was overnerfed given the strength of other forms of ranged direct damage.

Never understood the StamNB buzz. I've been playing one for the last few weeks. It's fun and I'm starting to do ok at it. Its well setup.

That being said, I have never once feared a nightblade on any of my non nightblade characters. Not during any given patch. I have played Mag DK, Magplar, and Stamden the most. While having 1-2 of each class played in cycles otherwise.

The same moment they nerfed the Stamden turtle heal, they added/increased templar turtle. But it's not entirely overbearing depending on the situation. - Again, healing in general is just too strong anyway.

The only insufficiency I have ever really found on my Mag DK is sustain. So in that regard i'm looking forward to patch hitting console. On the other hand - I also know full well that the change to whip is a bit overtuned at a glance. Without being cc'd, i'll be able to get 5-7 of them off on someone after a foss, leap, or talon. - But again, healing in general is just overtuned and the patch it not out on console yet so too soon to tell.

In recent memory, StamNBs, along with MagSorcs, were predictably extremely strong right out the gates during the No Proc test. Of course they would be - these are the original, fundamental DD specs. Once everybody adjusted to running all Necro and Warden groups both classes rather disappeared during No Proc. MagDKs were the second rarest class for me to encounter during this test, second to Dark Cloak MagNBs - think I saw one during No Proc.

Otherwise I'm in complete agreement. Healing is absolutely overtuned, especially offensive stat scaled healing.

I don't actually think Unnatural Movement should be nerfed. For me on Live console MagDKs are pretty much the only reason I sometimes question whether I should be running Stage 4 as I have been (on StamDK). I think hard counters are helpful for balance and diversity, and this is one of them.

dcmgti

I have a stamden, magplar, stamdk and stamsorc for pvp. I've always played my stamdk more as I like the class better. But on all my pvp characters I die way more to good stamblades, good magsorcs or streak->spin to win. Personally I think classes in general are pretty balanced except for magden. Tanks are abundant again which sucks, "smallscale" sweat groups won't hesitate to jump on a solo player all at once while spamming cc's, snares, chains and convergence or 2-3 people with spin to win.

There's a ton of toxic things in cyrodiil on PCNA right now. Classes themselves I don't think factor in to that very much. Except for chaindk's running around with convergence and friends waiting to ult dump you.

techyeshic

I think magdks are strong in Cyrodiil because people fear purging in a crowd. Other than that, this sounds a lot like people not happy about being countered. DKs I've fought hit hard. A lot of classes do. And a lot are tanky because sets allow them to still do considerable damage. Same can be said of every class.

xDeusEJRx

This is just a honeymoon period for a buffed class. You see it every patch. Nightblades buffed during no proc by making surprise attack stronger by giving it minor breach via sundered and suddenly everyone's a NB. Templars buffed by making a lot of their broken skills and suddenly surge of plars.

It's no different from DKs in this case. I expect a surge in nightblades too once a really good no-cloak NB build becomes available since viability has gone up again.
Honeymoon period will end after a few weeks, just give it time

gamma71

Unbelievable people already complaining. Are most you guys wardens and Necros? That are crying?

Larcomar

No, they're all nightblades. They were used to getting easy ganks and are now finding they actually need to, you know, fight people. And apparently can't...

TheS1X

Maybe it is not DK indeed, maybe it is healing that is breaking this game.
I like the idea that healing should be it's own stat.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Larcomar wrote: »

No, they're all nightblades. They were used to getting easy ganks and are now finding they actually need to, you know, fight people. And apparently can't...

I kill them far more often then they kill me. I am built to do insane burst damage so I can often kill them before they go into turtle mode. Not everyone in pvp is built like I am though so its very common to see literal zergs trying in vain to kill 1 Dk or templar. My role in pvp has went from just ganking to being a tank remover. If I am not logged in I can only imagine how long it takes to remove the M2's from the inside of a keep. I know at least once a group of three M2's were inside a keep for 30 minutes spawn killing until I came over and removed them. One of them said he was up to 150 kills before I showed up and nuked him. Its very OP and its not just NBs who want it fixed.

TheS1X

Larcomar wrote: »

No, they're all nightblades. They were used to getting easy ganks and are now finding they actually need to, you know, fight people. And apparently can't...

I just want to tell that playing a Nightblade is very difficult, they are squishy and they rely on ganks.
It is nonsense to claim that they can not fight if they do not fight you 1v1 when you are on your DK and buffs on with reflects etc... Have you actually tried nightblade? I play my nightblade like I would play MK11.
If I get a hit with one leab, I am dead. OFC, I can build brawler but this is not Nightblade anymore, then I am crappy wannabe DK.

Anyways, if heal is it's own stat, things would be more balanced. Then healers are healers, tanks are tanks and DDs are DDs.
Atm, everyone are healing, tanking and doing insane damage same time.
This is messing this game up big time.

gamma71

Un nerf Dc so we can just complain about sets and not class balance.

RamiroCruzo

TheS1X wrote: »

Larcomar wrote: »

No, they're all nightblades. They were used to getting easy ganks and are now finding they actually need to, you know, fight people. And apparently can't...

I just want to tell that playing a Nightblade is very difficult, they are squishy and they rely on ganks.
It is nonsense to claim that they can not fight if they do not fight you 1v1 when you are on your DK and buffs on with reflects etc... Have you actually tried nightblade? I play my nightblade like I would play MK11.
If I get a hit with one leab, I am dead. OFC, I can build brawler but this is not Nightblade anymore, then I am crappy wannabe DK.

Anyways, if heal is it's own stat, things would be more balanced. Then healers are healers, tanks are tanks and DDs are DDs.
Atm, everyone are healing, tanking and doing insane damage same time.
This is messing this game up big time.

If you die to one leap, am sorry to say you don't belong in PvP.

biminirwb17_ESO

DKs are fine they die all the time just keep them out of range wear them out of resources then burst em, leave the poor ol' slow DKs and Plars alone, they are 75% of my kill counter.

I admit if I get too close I am ded but that's my fault as a squishy blade.

ResidentContrarian

TheS1X wrote: »

I don't even care if some class is stronger than other but geeez, unkillable? No thanks, this is not how PVP should be.
What is this? Classes made for 5 year olds so they can safely roam Cyrodiil?
Tell me, how is this normal that DK had 2mil damage done, 0 deaths at the end of match while Sorc had 1mil and best NB was around 700k damage done with 10 deaths and only few kills.
What is the point of this game anymore if some classes are that strong?

Because you were fighting a hybrid DK healer. This patch hybrids got a buff, and for hybrid players that used them before in BGs where your pure builds dominated, it's payback time since it makes life easier for a previously difficult playstyle.

Once you see a person heal for 24k+ in a BGs with Coag blood, it's a red flag you aren't going to kill them as long as they can locate the roll and block buttons, and also a red flag about where their stats might be as you can't heal that much without damage behind it too. Ignoring that was the problem, correct tactic is to stay away or use better CC and/or played as a team.

Also, my necro never dies in BGs, pushes damage, and I always win. I haven't lost a single BG match on that necro. Let that sink in...

Deathmatch-only matches were always a bad idea because they set players up for failure the moment they start. One player that heals and does damage on either side decides the entire match. That's true, regardless of what class they are on.

ResidentContrarian

McTaterskins wrote: »

You're looking at the wrong problem.

Its not a particular class that's op. (well, not entirely - there are some* minor imbalances yet)

It is healing.

Healing is OP. - Especially when it gets its bonuses from the same stats that improve damage.

Nah,

Damage reduction is OP, esp. from vampire and pariah et. al. when all other sources, even major protection got a nerf. Undeath is one of the most ridiculous buffs in the game right now and a large part of why "healing is op."

You can heal for a billion hp and it wouldn't matter if you died in one hit, but with undeath even with 9k resistance I can build more tankier than someone in heavy armor with % reductions, keep my damage, keep my healing, and keep my sustain -- and it's literally all because of that buff being out of line along with other "unique" buffs.

I have said it many times but "unique" is usually codeword for OP or BROKEN on this game. It's always been true and will continue to do so.

techyeshic

I feel like DKs are matching the strength of proc sets with class ability and all other classes need to be able to do the same. Should not be nerfed but rather used for a model to make classes fun again rather than just be whichever synergizes with the proc sets of the chapter.

DrSlaughtr

It all comes down to this. If there's a class that can built to be a tank while also dealing immense damage, there needs to be an adjustment. They don't have to nerf DK, templars or necros directly. They just need to be a spectrum. On one end, full damage. On the other, full tank. Right now you can build your DK/Templar/Necro to be a high health, high armor tank while still landing ultimate group wipes or ridiculous executes. It's an easy fix. Add a damage debuff to battle spirit based on combined health+armor.

Why both? Because players are clever. If you base it on armor, they stack health. Base it on health, they'll stack armor.

techyeshic

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It all comes down to this. If there's a class that can built to be a tank while also dealing immense damage, there needs to be an adjustment. They don't have to nerf DK, templars or necros directly. They just need to be a spectrum. On one end, full damage. On the other, full tank. Right now you can build your DK/Templar/Necro to be a high health, high armor tank while still landing ultimate group wipes or ridiculous executes. It's an easy fix. Add a damage debuff to battle spirit based on combined health+armor.

Why both? Because players are clever. If you base it on armor, they stack health. Base it on health, they'll stack armor.

That sort of creates a game that favors classes that have skills to avoid damage entirely; doesn't it? Like cloak?

DrSlaughtr

techyeshic wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It all comes down to this. If there's a class that can built to be a tank while also dealing immense damage, there needs to be an adjustment. They don't have to nerf DK, templars or necros directly. They just need to be a spectrum. On one end, full damage. On the other, full tank. Right now you can build your DK/Templar/Necro to be a high health, high armor tank while still landing ultimate group wipes or ridiculous executes. It's an easy fix. Add a damage debuff to battle spirit based on combined health+armor.

Why both? Because players are clever. If you base it on armor, they stack health. Base it on health, they'll stack armor.

That sort of creates a game that favors classes that have skills to avoid damage entirely; doesn't it? Like cloak?

Every class has skills to avoid damage, whether it's shields, armor, block buffs, etc.

I can give examples.

DK wings, magma, and blood.

Warden slab, heals that CC, netch that cleanses, and nature's grasp.

Necro mender and about 4 other skills they help mitigate damage through active and passive effects.

Sorc streak, the best shields in the game, multiple ways to heal through damage, and negate.

Templar focus, ritual, topple charge, spear, shields, great heals, etc.

NB shadowy disguise and shadow image.

A DK doesn't need to have 35k health and 33 armor to kill. They run it that way because they can and will wipe people. Same goes for templar and necro. Warden used to be in that same conservation but changes to Arctic helped take away the easy mode builds.

AuraNebula

techyeshic wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It all comes down to this. If there's a class that can built to be a tank while also dealing immense damage, there needs to be an adjustment. They don't have to nerf DK, templars or necros directly. They just need to be a spectrum. On one end, full damage. On the other, full tank. Right now you can build your DK/Templar/Necro to be a high health, high armor tank while still landing ultimate group wipes or ridiculous executes. It's an easy fix. Add a damage debuff to battle spirit based on combined health+armor.

Why both? Because players are clever. If you base it on armor, they stack health. Base it on health, they'll stack armor.

That sort of creates a game that favors classes that have skills to avoid damage entirely; doesn't it? Like cloak?

Cloak doesn't avoid damage entirely. Also there are a million counters to stealth that work very well. You should try using some of them.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It all comes down to this. If there's a class that can built to be a tank while also dealing immense damage, there needs to be an adjustment. They don't have to nerf DK, templars or necros directly. They just need to be a spectrum. On one end, full damage. On the other, full tank. Right now you can build your DK/Templar/Necro to be a high health, high armor tank while still landing ultimate group wipes or ridiculous executes. It's an easy fix. Add a damage debuff to battle spirit based on combined health+armor.

Why both? Because players are clever. If you base it on armor, they stack health. Base it on health, they'll stack armor.

Where caution must be exercised is that it remains viable - or even meta for these classes - to run DK, and the imposter tank classes, in a tank like way.

Otherwise, in all Medium, with a Bow, StamDK is just a "Poison Rogue", a low grade NB.

This isn't what most of us who main DK want, in all of our years of advocating for buffs to our class rarely did we suggest "We don't want to play Poison Rogue, so nerf the Rogue playstyle altogether"

Before Necro, wasn't NB capable of stacking the most mitigation, with the most Ult Gen? Telling DKs they should be happy to be running as a Rogue to be competitive could be flipped, NBs should be happy running as brawler tanks like the rest of us.

What sort of "balance" do we like? All things the same color, or all colors equally vibrant?

Let's be clear, when I say "in a tank like way", I mean in a way that maximally frustrates the plots of ranged Sorcs and NBs. In a way that will not please a Ranged Ganker. That's the whole point - to achieve balance without homogenization.

If Melee is best ran at 20k HP, 15k Resistances, and so is an Archer or a Ranged Mage - then melee skills must hit substantially harder than anything which is achievable at range, or there's no point to playing Melee. Look at the state of a Bow Frontbar in PvP - it's not great in my opinion, does anybody run the Asylum Bow ever? Right now there's room for it to be buffed, that there probably wasn't the patch the revised Champion system debuted.

milllaurie

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It all comes down to this. If there's a class that can built to be a tank while also dealing immense damage, there needs to be an adjustment. They don't have to nerf DK, templars or necros directly. They just need to be a spectrum. On one end, full damage. On the other, full tank. Right now you can build your DK/Templar/Necro to be a high health, high armor tank while still landing ultimate group wipes or ridiculous executes. It's an easy fix. Add a damage debuff to battle spirit based on combined health+armor.

Why both? Because players are clever. If you base it on armor, they stack health. Base it on health, they'll stack armor.

Where caution must be exercised is that it remains viable - or even meta for these classes - to run DK, and the imposter tank classes, in a tank like way.

Otherwise, in all Medium, with a Bow, StamDK is just a "Poison Rogue", a low grade NB.

This isn't what most of us who main DK want, in all of our years of advocating for buffs to our class rarely did we suggest "We don't want to play Poison Rogue, so nerf the Rogue playstyle altogether"

Before Necro, wasn't NB capable of stacking the most mitigation, with the most Ult Gen? Telling DKs they should be happy to be running as a Rogue to be competitive could be flipped, NBs should be happy running as brawler tanks like the rest of us.

What sort of "balance" do we like? All things the same color, or all colors equally vibrant?

Let's be clear, when I say "in a tank like way", I mean in a way that maximally frustrates the plots of ranged Sorcs and NBs. In a way that will not please a Ranged Ganker. That's the whole point - to achieve balance without homogenization.

If Melee is best ran at 20k HP, 15k Resistances, and so is an Archer or a Ranged Mage - then melee skills must hit substantially harder than anything which is achievable at range, or there's no point to playing Melee. Look at the state of a Bow Frontbar in PvP - it's not great in my opinion, does anybody run the Asylum Bow ever? Right now there's room for it to be buffed, that there probably wasn't the patch the revised Champion system debuted.

Sorry mate, none of what you say makes any sense at all.
Dks are not worse rogues, in medium they are super tanky (if you run s&b) and have great burst (2h), with inherited great pressure from class DoTs, aoe major breach, armor buff that deals damage, and a lot of great passives to sustain and healing. I have no idea how you came up with the idea, but try reading DK passives again.
How is mellee best ran at 20k hp? Are you talking about pve in a pvp forum? 20k hp could be the reason you are feeling this way about the class.