Rebirthment wrote: »

how about remove the pull mechanic and give it a snare?

Still annoying but better than a pull. We've been through this before though with the Ritual of Retribution snare that had to be removed.

I'm pretty happy with the ability to counter ball groups with this set. I would disagree that it needs to be nerfed or changed. If you can't dodge roll or block in the middle of big damage, that's a you problem, not a set problem.

Arunei wrote: »

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babykubrow wrote: »

Rebirthment wrote: »

how about remove the pull mechanic and give it a snare?

I think removing the pull mech would render the set useless. Just make it pull once, and have it respect the protection right after you break free ecc...
Because as of right now, you get out of one to get grabbed into another, and it's ridiculous...

Honestly I'm surprised there's not some sort of pull immunity on the set to keep exactly that from happening. I don't think it would be too hard to make the pull apply SOME sort of CC immunity so you don't get bounced around like a pinball.

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Youyouz06 wrote: »

Disable cross healing again and just go back to standardized gameplay like in NO CP.
Some will whinge and yell and the beginning but it's like all families and ESO is no different, concessions must be made.

That's not a concession, that's cutting out solo healers who prefer to go in on their own and play by what they want to do instead of following a zerg or other group. It's also excessive and unnecessary when all they need to do to counter the overabundance of healing is make strong HoTs like Radiating Regen refresh on recast rather than stack. I truly don't understand why they haven't tried this yet, but have gone to the lengths of actively shutting down the solo healer playstyle to test the cross-healing thing (and even then that wasn't to address the overabundance of healing, it was to test if it "helped" server performance).

It's also not whinging to be upset when a playstyle you prefer is literally, 100% shut down and removed from the game.

It goes way farther than cutting out solo healers. Also cuts out any solo player ever being on siege when trying to take a keep and most the time while defending. When taking a keep the solo players would all hide behind something and wait for the door to go down. Those with self heals might step out and try to tag someone with a light attack before hiding again. Open field was pointless if not in a group for any solo player other than bombers.

Mykronic wrote: »

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Arunei wrote: »

Mykronic wrote: »

I'm pretty happy with the ability to counter ball groups with this set. I would disagree that it needs to be nerfed or changed. If you can't dodge roll or block in the middle of big damage, that's a you problem, not a set problem.

Except when there's lag, or desyncs, which happens all the time to a large population of the PvP playerbase. It's not a matter of just 'git gud' when the game literally won't respond to what you're trying to tell it to do.

Edit to add that the set shouldn't be able to bounce people endlessly between DC users. It really should apply some sort of CC immunity. It's meant to be a set to counter large groups, but since the pull doesn't apply CC immunity, it can also be used to hassle and run down smaller groups and solo players by forcing them to burn through their Stam for dodge-rolling. The damage from the set might not be as high against smaller groups or individuals, but I imagine it doesn't matter when you get run out of Stam to avoid the damage from skills and whatever other sets people might be using.

I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with you. That logic just doesn't hold up for me when there's dozens of abilities and proc sets that cause the same exact problems when there are desyncs and lag spikes. This set is no different than any other that creates a snare or ground effect. Selene is an example of another set that is easily dodged or blocked but becomes an issue with lag spikes and desyncs. It hits like a truck under the right circumstances.

And to your edit, there is also always going to be an issue when you're outnumbered. CC is made to force you to use your resources wisely, and that's why many tout their ability to perform in 1vX scenarios.

It's a popular set and many are running it right now. Many of those run in ball groups. That's not a reason to nerf it into the ground as we have seen with many fun sets in the past.

Correct, it needs to be nerfed because it currently does more than Ultimates. No set should be doing everything it's doing. Nerf it because it's overpowered.

I decided to go ahead and grab myself a set and see what I could do. Messed with it a couple of days and found myself paying more attention to whether or not it was ready to go off and where I should throw down something to trigger it. Went back to my normal gear last night. Had a lot more fun and did better because I got back to my regular rotation and play style. That set is toxic in a whole lot of ways. I can see players getting lazy with it and losing what PvP skills (player skills not those assigned to characters) they might have.
It is a crutch for a lot of players and some of those players don't need the crutch. They soon will though if they don't get away from it soon.

Get rid of this [snip]

[edited for profanity bypass]

Mykronic wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with you. That logic just doesn't hold up for me when there's dozens of abilities and proc sets that cause the same exact problems when there are desyncs and lag spikes. This set is no different than any other that creates a snare or ground effect. Selene is an example of another set that is easily dodged or blocked but becomes an issue with lag spikes and desyncs. It hits like a truck under the right circumstances.

And to your edit, there is also always going to be an issue when you're outnumbered. CC is made to force you to use your resources wisely, and that's why many tout their ability to perform in 1vX scenarios.

It's a popular set and many are running it right now. Many of those run in ball groups. That's not a reason to nerf it into the ground as we have seen with many fun sets in the past.

Just because other skills and sets have the same problem doesn't mean a new set that's introduced has to be allowed to slip for the same reason. We're supposed to learn from mistakes to avoid repeating them. It would seem to me that ZOS should want to add fewer things that can be exacerbated by lag and the like. Technically ALL skills and sets in the game can be affected by these, but we all know that certain things are affected worse (a certain Bow skill comes to mind). I'm not saying the idea or concept of the set is bad, but I am saying that tweaks to make it more balanced isn't the same thing as a nerf. Change doesn't automatically equate nerf (though given ZOS' track record it's understandable when people find change/nerf synonymous, as it's usually the case).

About my edit, I wasn't talking about just being really outnumbered. I'm talking about equal size smaller groups, a few people against a few people or one other person. It's one thing to be forced into burning your Stam because you're trying to avoid skillful play or actual actions taken by your opponents. It's another thing entirely when your Stam evaporates because you're trying to avoid the proc on a set where the only real action your enemy is taking is slapping down some AoE so they can bounce you around left right and center.

And your last point just reiterates what I've said before, about how zergs and ball groups can use the same sets that ZOS tries to come up with to counter them. Most people aren't calling for it to be nerfed heavily, they're simply providing feedback about ways to balance it so it's not too OP. Like I said, one way to help would be to make it so the pull applies CC immunity for a few seconds, so you won't be yote to and fro like a leaf in a whirlwind. Another thing ZOS could do is just...make HoTs refresh instead of stack, and then they wouldn't have to keep introducing sets like DC.

Jaraal wrote: »

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Youyouz06 wrote: »

Disable cross healing again and just go back to standardized gameplay like in NO CP.
Some will whinge and yell and the beginning but it's like all families and ESO is no different, concessions must be made.

Ball groups are groups, cross healing has no effect on them. But cross healing can help solo players survive, and it gives solo healers a reason for playing. Also, ZOS stated that removing cross healing had a "negligible effect" on performance.

So what "concessions" are you saying need to be made?

Exactly. The other reason they re-enabled cross - healing a patch later is that Cyro population dwindled, as solo players & group players were not playing using same rule set. So naturally, pretty much all solo players (the ones that play alone or the ones that follow "zergs") were gone. I still remember ESO forums back then and some hilarious threads that Ball Groups were playing only vs other Ball Groups and complained basically that it is much harder to farm AP

^ Performance were pretty much the same, it did not matter if cross - healing was on / off. But since the population dropped significantly, I don't see ZOS disabling cross healing any time soon or most likely - ever again.

Now I see kinda similar situation with new proc sets - CP / Proc campaign is loosing players (population is getting lower), and people migrate to No CP / No Proc campaign.

Mykronic wrote: »

Your post makes a lot of sense but the point you say is NOT happening is what really worries me. ZOS tends to be kneejerk in their reactions, and if you look through this thread at the the "remove it from the game" and "this needs to be nerfed into the ground" posts, there are quite a few of them. There are not many moderate posts like yours that say "tweak it and things will be fine".

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chaz wrote: »

Maybe we all should wear it and just nuke the devil outta cyrodiil.

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blxdes wrote: »

Get rid of this [snip]

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EdmondDontes wrote: »

Dark Convergence absolutely is breaking cyrodiil. I'm on the forum now because it's just unbearable to put up with 50% plus of everyone wearing this game breaking set.

Why wasn't Dark Convergence hot fixed same time Hrothgar was?

I think ZOS plays to the loud voices who say things like "crutch" and "pure PvP" and "skilled players" and things like that. My point here is that nerfing this into the ground (as has been suggested by many in this thread) will make us all lose a mechanism we have against those exploiting group mechanics against solo players, small groups and the like. I personally like this set for that and I've used it in bombing situations and defense against ball groups very successfully. I can live with tweaks, but it would be really sad to play into the hands of a few loud voices who complain in hyperbole.

A compromise? Apply CC immunity when it's used and leave it the way it is.

I more meant in general across some of the other threads and people I've talked to in regards to saying it's not happening much that people are asking for it to be nerfed into the ground or removed, rather than in just this one thread. ZOS kneejerks all the time, but I would also like to believe (perhaps foolishly) that they will listen more to actual feedback than the people posting things that have no actual value (the "lol remove it" or "lol make it weaker" posts that don't offer anything the to discussion).

As for tweaks, I'd say the single pull, applying CC immunity for maybe 3-5 seconds, and only affecting people in horizontal AoE should be fine. It won't weaken the set to a degree where it'll be useless in one patch, but it will make it less overtuned and OP.

I personally would also like to see it no longer pull players off of keep walls.

I've entirely stopped deploying sieges because I honestly refuse to die due to an unavoidable pull, since by the time I release my siege the set pulls me in and off the wall. It's also a really silly way to die, because they always feel like very undeserved kills.
You're kinda forced to stay at the edge otherwise you cannot see what and who are you hitting with a siege weapon.

I witnessed countless teammates get sucked off inner defenses because they were just trying to oil the enemies below, and I feel like it isn't exactly fair.

IMO, the set should function only if the wearer is not in a group and not within x meters of allies. The idea is that the zerg busting set cannot be used by zergs. This would disable it in BG's and maybe make it less obnoxious in Cyrodiil.

Last night at Bleakers got silly. Daggerfall Covenant held Bleakers Ebonheart Pact wanted it. I was inside Bleakers healing when the spam fest began. If you were on oils you died because of Dark Convergence. If you tried to rez players that died you died to Dark Convergence. I was on the stairs (2nd from the top) and got pulled to the edge of the center ring twice. Survived once but got stuck the 2nd time. Dark Convergence was on the front door so you couldn't go out that way to try and attack. The side I was on there were players keeping Dark Convergence going pretty much all the time on the side door so no getting out there. Didn't go look at the other side. Basically we the defenders that were not dead and unreachable waited on the stairs for the attackers to come in the door so we could spam our own Dark Convergence on the opening. Then it was just Dark Convergence by all that had it on the flags until the end.

Daggerfall Covenant was close to pop locked then but after that fight players all of a sudden had somewhere else to be. Was some talk of can't wait until Tuesday as they headed out the door. Kinda hope the can't wait till Tuesday talk was just a hot headed reaction to how messed up Dark COnvergence is right now.

I'm thinking the changes on the test server might make things worse. Players need to be near each other to run a ram. Players on oils need o be near each other. Players going though a breach need to be near each other. Doors on a keep are narrower than twenty meters so Dark Convergence still covers the entire breech. It isn't feasible to trickle into a keep you are trying to take one or two at a time.
A 2nd breech doesn't change much.