Just counting the seals and not the additional rewards granted for completing an endeavour seems a little disingenuous.

Katlefiya wrote: »

Just counting the seals and not the additional rewards granted for completing an endeavour seems a little disingenuous.

The Seals are the only important part of Endeavors, because the other rewards aren't going to contribute to the main point of the system: to let players acquire crown crate items through in game activities.

Now, the other extra rewards like gold might be useful to some players, but they are irrelevant to the question of whether or not ZOS is lowering the number of Seals gained over time.

Iluvrien wrote: »

This is what I got:

Week 1 (21/06 to 27/06): 385
Week 2 (28/06 to 04/07): 345
Week 3 (05/07 to 11/07): 310
Week 4 (12/07 to 18/07): 295
Week 5 (19/07 to 25/07): 340
Week 6 (26/07 to 01/08): 310

Eh, if you do that semi-standard statistical analysis thing, and throw out the high & low values (385, 295), you get a bounce between 340-ish and 310. Of course, that's only 5 data points.


Need a few more for it to really start to show anything meaningful.


Personally, I think that they're bouncing the numbers & tasks around, to see at what seal levels & task efforts people will do or skip them. Gathering participation data. Like "20 seals isn't enough to get Casual Players to do <X>" and "10 seals isn't enough to get Dedicated Players to do <Y>". And, of course, the XP & gold bonuses factor in to those judgements, too.

But, then, I don't have an automatic adversarial relationship with ZoS (or any other game devs). i.e, I don't assume that They Are My Enemy and that anything they do is hostile action against me. I'm not looking at everything through a lens of "how is this intended to screw me." /shrug

Iluvrien wrote: »

What do you think of the trends in the rolling means?

Too soon to tell. Like I said, we need more data points; and I believe they're tossing out all sorts of combinations of rewards vs tasks, to see how different demographics of players react to them.

(including things like "will frequent Antiquities tasks get people to get Greymoor" Hasn't done it for me yet, and I don't remotely have enough gold to buy it via gifting at PCNA rates)

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

This is what I got:

Week 1 (21/06 to 27/06): 385
Week 2 (28/06 to 04/07): 345
Week 3 (05/07 to 11/07): 310
Week 4 (12/07 to 18/07): 295
Week 5 (19/07 to 25/07): 340
Week 6 (26/07 to 01/08): 310

Eh, if you do that semi-standard statistical analysis thing, and throw out the high & low values (385, 295), you get a bounce between 340-ish and 310. Of course, that's only 5 data points.


Need a few more for it to really start to show anything meaningful.


Personally, I think that they're bouncing the numbers & tasks around, to see at what seal levels & task efforts people will do or skip them. Gathering participation data. Like "20 seals isn't enough to get Casual Players to do <X>" and "10 seals isn't enough to get Dedicated Players to do <Y>". And, of course, the XP & gold bonuses factor in to those judgements, too.

But, then, I don't have an automatic adversarial relationship with ZoS (or any other game devs). i.e, I don't assume that They Are My Enemy and that anything they do is hostile action against me. I'm not looking at everything through a lens of "how is this intended to screw me." /shrug

I'm looking forward to more data. Hopefully, it shows that ZOS isn't putting their thumb on the scale to manipulate the amount of Seals available, providing lower amounts over time.

That being said, the time for players to say so is now, not after ZOS has done all their "testing" and decided that it's ideal to give players less seals because otherwise it cuts into their Crown Crate profits too much.

I do not consider commenting on ZOS' business decisions to automatically adversarial. [snip]

Honestly, in light of the above, I think it's quite reasonable and responsible for concerned customers to keep a sharp eye on the amount of Seals over time.

After all, just look at the Daily Login Rewards. Back when they started, we got great rewards. Now that the Skinner's Box habit is established, the rewards have become a lot more standardized at a rather low level compared to how it used to be.

So, ah, if I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses when it comes to Seals, well, I'd point to the history that ZOS has with this type of monetization/in-game rewards.

[edited for conspiracy theory/misinformation]

I could have sworn I was behind in endeavors to purchase what I wanted by at least 200, but just yesterday I noticed I had enough.

I think it's worth checking back in to the endeavor store often because I think it's easy to forget how much you have and how much your item costs.

I just really really hope ZOS allows us to keep the seals through the next crate season. Because if we only have a single crate season to get items, I'm not sure it would be possible to get one of the higher end items.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

What do you think of the trends in the rolling means?

Too soon to tell. Like I said, we need more data points; and I believe they're tossing out all sorts of combinations of rewards vs tasks, to see how different demographics of players react to them.

(including things like "will frequent Antiquities tasks get people to get Greymoor" Hasn't done it for me yet, and I don't remotely have enough gold to buy it via gifting at PCNA rates)

I'm waiting for more data points. Once I get a significant number, I'll be able to publish all bunch of stats. I'm tracking every week, every task, and every reward.

JoDiMageio wrote: »

Orion_89 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Again, they're not getting consistently lower. This is outright false information.

False? I log in everyday just to do the endeavors and I see the decreasing. There is no false information, only your unwillingness to face the truth.

I think this is more a case of confirmation bias than anything else.

@BenevolentBowd has a very comprehensive list of the endeavours and how many seals each one provides on their site, and even posts the daily endeavours and the number of seals that can be earned (a history would be cool, btw!! just like the other data that is being tracked).
http://benevolentbowd.ca/games/esotu/eso-endeavors/

Some days are higher, some days are lower, but in my experience, it hasn't been getting consistently lower; it varies, just as it was explained in the initial release articles. It's just easier to think it's getting lower, because we notice those days more because it frustrates us.

Not everything is a conspiracy.

That's what THEY WANT you to think!! :-P

Jokes aside, I have had the feeling that it is getting steadily lower, if not in a straight line, but then again I know better than to trust my gut feeling about this sort of thing. Without a source of long-term, consistent data, it is hard to say one way or another.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Kind of funny to have a bunch of items on sales for endeavors that are impossible to buy with the number of endeavors that can be earned so far.

You forgot limited timed ones.

"you have 3 days left to buy that 16k Seal mount. Ignore fact that even by collecting max amount of seals possible you won't even hit 8k mark yet"

Iluvrien wrote: »

@jle30303 I managed to fill the holes in your data using the very useful Twitter stream of @BenevolentBowd .

There are discrepancies between those two days sources where they overlap, which means filling in the holes of one with those from the Twitter feed may not be accurate.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

Just counting the seals and not the additional rewards granted for completing an endeavour seems a little disingenuous.

Not really. What makes endeavours unique is their ability to grant seals to provide a route to buying Lootbox items without buying lootboxes. I could make more gold than they have provided by selling a single week's worth of Guild Store inventory. Gold can be gotten from many places. Seals can not.

@jle30303 I managed to fill the holes in your data using the very useful Twitter stream of @BenevolentBowd .

I looked at weekly totals for all full weeks (factoring in both dailies and weeklies) to try and make the analysis fair.

This is what I got:

Week 1 (21/06 to 27/06): 385
Week 2 (28/06 to 04/07): 345
Week 3 (05/07 to 11/07): 310
Week 4 (12/07 to 18/07): 295
Week 5 (19/07 to 25/07): 340
Week 6 (26/07 to 01/08): 310

There is a degree of variation, and I am not sure that I would agree with the two-week phase suggestion of @Luke_Flamesword once you include weeklies, but that trend definitely seems to be downward when I plot it. The 7 day rolling mean (both with and without contributions from weeklies) is even worse.

I'd like to see ZOS correct this trend.

I would personally expect the first week to have a bit more seals as a bonus to start the system, and seems they did that. Looks like between 310-345 will be the normal.

nightstrike wrote: »

nightstrike wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

@jle30303 I managed to fill the holes in your data using the very useful Twitter stream of @BenevolentBowd .

There are discrepancies between those two days sources where they overlap, which means filling in the holes of one with those from the Twitter feed may not be accurate.

I fixed the data for the discrepancies in the first couple days. I then threw out the first 4 days, because there were no weeklies associated with the days.

If there's any doubt about a downward trend, well... numbers don't lie.



EDIT: raw data below:

DateDailyWeeklyEnd/Day

6/212025055.71428571
6/221525050.71428571
6/232025055.71428571
6/242025055.71428571
6/251525050.71428571
6/262525060.71428571
6/272025055.71428571
6/281520043.57142857
6/292020048.57142857
6/302020048.57142857
7/11520043.57142857
7/22020048.57142857
7/32520053.57142857
7/43020058.57142857
7/51520043.57142857
7/62020048.57142857
7/71520043.57142857
7/82020048.57142857
7/91020038.57142857
7/101520043.57142857
7/111520043.57142857
7/121518040.71428571
7/131518040.71428571
7/142518050.71428571
7/152018045.71428571
7/161018035.71428571
7/171518040.71428571
7/181518040.71428571
7/192522557.14285714
7/201522547.14285714
7/211022542.14285714
7/222522557.14285714
7/231022542.14285714
7/241522547.14285714
7/251522547.14285714
7/262020048.57142857
7/271520043.57142857
7/281520043.57142857
7/292020048.57142857
7/301520043.57142857
7/311020038.57142857
8/11520043.57142857
8/21518040.71428571
8/31018035.71428571
8/41518040.71428571
8/51518040.71428571
8/62018045.71428571
8/71018035.71428571
8/81518040.71428571

Edit: nvm

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It's almost like Seals of Endeavor aren't intended to replace buying Crown Crates, but rather to serve as ZOS's excuse that "Crown Crates totally aren't gambling, so please don't regulate us!"

I'm more upset that Seals of Endeavor aren't actually fabulous looking seals breaking into said Crown Crates.

I laughed, then decided it must be done!

Have an awesome lmao

I strongly dislike Endeavors.
I "invested" 150k crowns into a mount I really, really wanted... Now people will get it for Endeavors it almost feels like I've been scammed. If I knew this was what the future held I would never had spent 150k crowns trying to get that mount.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rasande_Robin wrote: »

I strongly dislike Endeavors.
I "invested" 150k crowns into a mount I really, really wanted... Now people will get it for Endeavors it almost feels like I've been scammed. If I knew this was what the future held I would never had spent 150k crowns trying to get that mount.

Take it as tuition for the school of life. Buying neat stuff is seldom an investment, and prices of all products are subject to change. In fact, the vast majority of items get cheaper. Never spend a ton of money on something rare unless it's something guaranteed to remain rare and you have things like seals of authenticity. Or at least, never spend so much money you'd be angry later if it became common or worthless at any rate.

You weren't scammed. ZOS never said it would stay rare or that something like this would never be implemented. In fact anyone who watched the news would have seen things like this coming due the legal issues around crates.

You gotta be really careful when spending that kind of money.

Technically none of us really "own" items in an MMO. It's more like we borrow them.

At any time, the game could close and all those items we "own" will disappear. And there would be no refunds for them. This is for any MMO in general.

So what we're really buying is the momentary enjoyment. Things can change at anytime, and anything we buy can be gone or discounted later.

If person A buys a mount at an earlier date, and person B buys that same mount at a discount at a later date, person A still got more time to enjoy that mount. The premium paid is to enjoy stuff for longer. It's the same for the chapters. People who wait a year to buy a chapter will get them at a discounted rate, but they also lost a year that they didn't get to enjoy that chapter.